John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 13,881 through 13,900 (of 26,009 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #357275
    Wakeup
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 10 2013,11:03)

    Quote (Wakeup @ Sep. 09 2013,16:50)
    The second torch,which came forth from within the first torch,is also the first torch.


    Let me stop you right there, Wakeup.  The Son OF the Most High God is not also the Most High God.


    MikeB.

    No; but he is the Word that proceeded out of God.
    God's Word belongs to God,and he is in control of his Word.
    What God wants done,his Word will do the job.

    wakeup.

    #357282
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 10 2013,07:11)

    Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 10 2013,01:10)

    Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 10 2013,00:23)

    Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 09 2013,19:55)

    Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 09 2013,12:44)
    T,

    It seems you are having trouble with the use of English.  

    Mankind is guilty of the Holocaust.
    Mankind was the victim of the Holocaust.
    Mankind brought the Holocaust to and end.

    Is every man guilty of the Holocaust?
    Was everyman the victim of the Holocaust?
    Did every man bring the Holocaust to an end?

    Mankind is guilty of the sin in the Garden because humans sinned.
    Not every man is guilty of the sin but only those that committed it.

    Quote
    1Cr 15:21
    For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

    This passage is speaking of mankind because it neither states “a man” or “the man”.


    K'

    do not get yet ?????????????????????????????????

    Paul does not talk about humanity ,IT HIS YOU ;PAUL JUST MENTION THAT IT WAS SOME THING THAT CAME FROM THE ACTION OF MAN ;AND WE KNOW BECAUSE GENESIS STORY ;

    BUT YOU HAVE YOUR OWN ENGLISH UNDERSTANDING AND SO KNOW BETTER ,

    THIS TYPE OF UNDERSTANDING KILLS THE TRUTH OF GOD ,

    SO LEARN TO UNDERSTAND SCRIPTURES WITH GOD SPIRIT ;;;NOT YOURS ;;;

    TELL ME THAT IT IS ME THAT DO NOT UNDERSTAND ENGLISH ;SOME TIMES YOU COULD BE RIGHT ;

    BUT HAVE NO CLUE OF ANY UNDERSTANDING IN SCRIPTURES ;??? WHAT DO YOU KNOW ??? HOW DO YOU KNOW ??? I HAVE SHOWN YOU OVER AND OVER AGAIN .

    TELL HOW WILL YOUR ENGLISH SAVE YOU ??????????

    DON'T WANT TO KNOW ,IT IS YOUR PROBLEM ,FOR OVER FOUR YEARS I TALKED TO YOU .AND SEE HOW YOU THINKING ;


    T,

    We are talking about English and in that language saying the action of man is the same as saying the action of mankind.

    Quote
    PAUL JUST MENTION THAT IT WAS SOME THING THAT CAME FROM THE ACTION OF MAN ;AND WE KNOW BECAUSE GENESIS STORY ;

    That is what I have been saying though I choose to use the word mankind instead of the word man.


    K

    so measure your words with truth in scriptures NOT WITH HUMAN VIEWS ,INTELLECTUAL EGO ,

    BECAUSE THIS IS WHAT HAPPEN WHEN YOU MOVE AWAY FROM SCRIPTURES ;CONFUSION ,AND IT DOES NOT TEACH THE TRUTH ;BUT DECEIT


    T,

    Your words confuse me as I am not sure where your disagreement with my words is.  As far as I can tell is because of choice of the word “mankind” instead of man and possibly other like word choices.


    K

    [B]if mankind his guilty ,in that case Noah would have not survived the flood ,

    if it was the man Adam ,then all is good ,through one man sin enter and is solve by one man Christ ,

    scriptures say; ONE MAN”

    i HATE OPINIONS THAT GOES AGAINST SCRIPTURES ,DEFLATE YOU BIG HEAD ,

    YOU ,I,ANYONE ,WILL NOT BRING ANYTHING TO THE TRUTH OF GOD ,GET IT ???? GOD GIVES YOU DO NOT WANTED IT ,TOUGH LIVE FOR YOU AND YOURS ,GOT IT ???

    WE ALL HAVE TO CHOSE WHO WE WANT TO SERVE ;GOT IT ???

    #357283
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 10 2013,02:38)

    Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 08 2013,13:25)
    A passage in Philippians 2 seems to hint at that possibility but it also seems to hint that he was not a servant and then became one.

    Is it wise to base a teaching on hints?


    Actually, that passage in Phil 2 directly and plainly explains how Jesus was existing in one form BEFORE emptying himself and being made in the likeness of a human being.

    It is only those who have personal wishes for Jesus to have been “exactly like us” who twist these easy-to-understand words from Paul……… and pretend that they don't understand the clear message he teaches in Phil 2.

    But even if it was just “hinted at” in Phil 2, there are loads of other scriptures that would change the “hint” to a sure thing.  (“I had glory with God before the world began”, “I came down from heaven”, “before Abraham existed, I have been”, etc.)

    You guys are as adept at pretending these scriptures (and many more) don't say what they're clearly saying as the Trinitarians are at pretending certain scriptures teach that Jesus is the very God he is the Son of.

    I don't have the patience to wade through your and Marty's semantics and word games anymore, Kerwin.

    Believe what you want.


    Mike,

    Do as you wish but the Philippians 2 argument clearly state Jesus “took upon him the form of a servant” which clearly means he did not have that form previously. A Trinitarian could at best claim that hints at Jesus being God as angels are servants and so exist in the form of God already.

    The only way that Philippians 2:5-9 hints at Jesus taking the likeness of mankind after he already existed in the form of God is if you take verse 6-7 in chronological order.

    Neither of these are sound reasoning according the rules of logical reasoning because they are each flawed.

    In short Philippians 2:5-9 is at best weak circumstantial evidence for the case you are trying to make.

    #357284
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 10 2013,07:32)

    Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 10 2013,07:11)

    Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 10 2013,01:10)

    Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 10 2013,00:23)

    Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 09 2013,19:55)

    Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 09 2013,12:44)
    T,

    It seems you are having trouble with the use of English.  

    Mankind is guilty of the Holocaust.
    Mankind was the victim of the Holocaust.
    Mankind brought the Holocaust to and end.

    Is every man guilty of the Holocaust?
    Was everyman the victim of the Holocaust?
    Did every man bring the Holocaust to an end?

    Mankind is guilty of the sin in the Garden because humans sinned.
    Not every man is guilty of the sin but only those that committed it.

    Quote
    1Cr 15:21
    For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

    This passage is speaking of mankind because it neither states “a man” or “the man”.


    K'

    do not get yet ?????????????????????????????????

    Paul does not talk about humanity ,IT HIS YOU ;PAUL JUST MENTION THAT IT WAS SOME THING THAT CAME FROM THE ACTION OF MAN ;AND WE KNOW BECAUSE GENESIS STORY ;

    BUT YOU HAVE YOUR OWN ENGLISH UNDERSTANDING AND SO KNOW BETTER ,

    THIS TYPE OF UNDERSTANDING KILLS THE TRUTH OF GOD ,

    SO LEARN TO UNDERSTAND SCRIPTURES WITH GOD SPIRIT ;;;NOT YOURS ;;;

    TELL ME THAT IT IS ME THAT DO NOT UNDERSTAND ENGLISH ;SOME TIMES YOU COULD BE RIGHT ;

    BUT HAVE NO CLUE OF ANY UNDERSTANDING IN SCRIPTURES ;??? WHAT DO YOU KNOW ??? HOW DO YOU KNOW ??? I HAVE SHOWN YOU OVER AND OVER AGAIN .

    TELL HOW WILL YOUR ENGLISH SAVE YOU ??????????

    DON'T WANT TO KNOW ,IT IS YOUR PROBLEM ,FOR OVER FOUR YEARS I TALKED TO YOU .AND SEE HOW YOU THINKING ;


    T,

    We are talking about English and in that language saying the action of man is the same as saying the action of mankind.

    Quote
    PAUL JUST MENTION THAT IT WAS SOME THING THAT CAME FROM THE ACTION OF MAN ;AND WE KNOW BECAUSE GENESIS STORY ;

    That is what I have been saying though I choose to use the word mankind instead of the word man.


    K

    so measure your words with truth in scriptures NOT WITH HUMAN VIEWS ,INTELLECTUAL EGO ,

    BECAUSE THIS IS WHAT HAPPEN WHEN YOU MOVE AWAY FROM SCRIPTURES ;CONFUSION ,AND IT DOES NOT TEACH THE TRUTH ;BUT DECEIT


    T,

    Your words confuse me as I am not sure where your disagreement with my words is.  As far as I can tell is because of choice of the word “mankind” instead of man and possibly other like word choices.


    K

    [B]if mankind his guilty ,in that case Noah would have not survived the flood ,

    if it was the man Adam ,then all is good ,through one man sin enter and is solve by one man Christ ,

    scriptures say; ONE MAN”

    i HATE OPINIONS THAT GOES AGAINST SCRIPTURES ,DEFLATE YOU BIG HEAD ,

    YOU ,I,ANYONE ,WILL NOT BRING ANYTHING TO THE TRUTH OF GOD ,GET IT ???? GOD GIVES YOU DO NOT WANTED IT ,TOUGH LIVE FOR YOU AND YOURS ,GOT IT ???

    WE ALL HAVE TO CHOSE WHO WE WANT TO SERVE ;GOT IT ???


    T,

    Read the passage:

    Quote
    1Cr 15:21
    For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

    This translation states For since by mankind came death, by mankind came also the resurrection of the dead. I am not interpreting it as all I did was switch out one word for another that means the same thing.

    #357285
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 10 2013,07:35)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 10 2013,02:38)

    Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 08 2013,13:25)
    A passage in Philippians 2 seems to hint at that possibility but it also seems to hint that he was not a servant and then became one.

    Is it wise to base a teaching on hints?


    Actually, that passage in Phil 2 directly and plainly explains how Jesus was existing in one form BEFORE emptying himself and being made in the likeness of a human being.

    It is only those who have personal wishes for Jesus to have been “exactly like us” who twist these easy-to-understand words from Paul……… and pretend that they don't understand the clear message he teaches in Phil 2.

    But even if it was just “hinted at” in Phil 2, there are loads of other scriptures that would change the “hint” to a sure thing.  (“I had glory with God before the world began”, “I came down from heaven”, “before Abraham existed, I have been”, etc.)

    You guys are as adept at pretending these scriptures (and many more) don't say what they're clearly saying as the Trinitarians are at pretending certain scriptures teach that Jesus is the very God he is the Son of.

    I don't have the patience to wade through your and Marty's semantics and word games anymore, Kerwin.

    Believe what you want.


    Mike,

    Do as you wish but the Philippians 2 argument clearly state Jesus “took upon him the form of a servant” which clearly means he did not have that form previously.  A Trinitarian could at best claim that hints at Jesus being God as angels are servants and so exist in the form of God already.

    The only way that Philippians 2:5-9 hints at Jesus taking the likeness of mankind after he already existed in the form of God is if you take verse 6-7 in chronological order.

    Neither of these are sound reasoning according the rules of logical reasoning because they are each flawed.

    In short Philippians 2:5-9 is at best weak circumstantial evidence for the case you are trying to make.


    k

    THERE IT SHOWS ” you do not believe in scriptures “

    THIS IS WHERE YOU ,MIKE AND i ,ARE GOING TO QUIT ,

    YOUR FLAWS ARE IN YOUR HEAD ,'YOU FIGHTING WITH GODS WORD ;BUT YOU DON'T CARE THIS WE CAN SEE BETTER NOW ,

    ADIÓS AMIGOS

    #357287
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 10 2013,07:41)

    Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 10 2013,07:35)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 10 2013,02:38)

    Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 08 2013,13:25)
    A passage in Philippians 2 seems to hint at that possibility but it also seems to hint that he was not a servant and then became one.

    Is it wise to base a teaching on hints?


    Actually, that passage in Phil 2 directly and plainly explains how Jesus was existing in one form BEFORE emptying himself and being made in the likeness of a human being.

    It is only those who have personal wishes for Jesus to have been “exactly like us” who twist these easy-to-understand words from Paul……… and pretend that they don't understand the clear message he teaches in Phil 2.

    But even if it was just “hinted at” in Phil 2, there are loads of other scriptures that would change the “hint” to a sure thing.  (“I had glory with God before the world began”, “I came down from heaven”, “before Abraham existed, I have been”, etc.)

    You guys are as adept at pretending these scriptures (and many more) don't say what they're clearly saying as the Trinitarians are at pretending certain scriptures teach that Jesus is the very God he is the Son of.

    I don't have the patience to wade through your and Marty's semantics and word games anymore, Kerwin.

    Believe what you want.


    Mike,

    Do as you wish but the Philippians 2 argument clearly state Jesus “took upon him the form of a servant” which clearly means he did not have that form previously.  A Trinitarian could at best claim that hints at Jesus being God as angels are servants and so exist in the form of God already.

    The only way that Philippians 2:5-9 hints at Jesus taking the likeness of mankind after he already existed in the form of God is if you take verse 6-7 in chronological order.

    Neither of these are sound reasoning according the rules of logical reasoning because they are each flawed.

    In short Philippians 2:5-9 is at best weak circumstantial evidence for the case you are trying to make.


    k

    THERE IT SHOWS ” you do not believe in scriptures “

    THIS IS WHERE YOU ,MIKE AND i ,ARE GOING TO QUIT ,

    YOUR FLAWS ARE IN YOUR HEAD ,'YOU FIGHTING WITH GODS WORD ;BUT YOU DON'T CARE THIS WE CAN SEE BETTER NOW ,

    ADIÓS AMIGOS


    T,

    Do you not see what is there to see?

    Do you believe Jesus did not exist in the form of a servant before he “took on the form of a servant”?

    #357288
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 10 2013,07:40)

    Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 10 2013,07:32)

    Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 10 2013,07:11)

    Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 10 2013,01:10)

    Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 10 2013,00:23)

    Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 09 2013,19:55)

    Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 09 2013,12:44)
    T,

    It seems you are having trouble with the use of English.  

    Mankind is guilty of the Holocaust.
    Mankind was the victim of the Holocaust.
    Mankind brought the Holocaust to and end.

    Is every man guilty of the Holocaust?
    Was everyman the victim of the Holocaust?
    Did every man bring the Holocaust to an end?

    Mankind is guilty of the sin in the Garden because humans sinned.
    Not every man is guilty of the sin but only those that committed it.

    Quote
    1Cr 15:21
    For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

    This passage is speaking of mankind because it neither states “a man” or “the man”.


    K'

    do not get yet ?????????????????????????????????

    Paul does not talk about humanity ,IT HIS YOU ;PAUL JUST MENTION THAT IT WAS SOME THING THAT CAME FROM THE ACTION OF MAN ;AND WE KNOW BECAUSE GENESIS STORY ;

    BUT YOU HAVE YOUR OWN ENGLISH UNDERSTANDING AND SO KNOW BETTER ,

    THIS TYPE OF UNDERSTANDING KILLS THE TRUTH OF GOD ,

    SO LEARN TO UNDERSTAND SCRIPTURES WITH GOD SPIRIT ;;;NOT YOURS ;;;

    TELL ME THAT IT IS ME THAT DO NOT UNDERSTAND ENGLISH ;SOME TIMES YOU COULD BE RIGHT ;

    BUT HAVE NO CLUE OF ANY UNDERSTANDING IN SCRIPTURES ;??? WHAT DO YOU KNOW ??? HOW DO YOU KNOW ??? I HAVE SHOWN YOU OVER AND OVER AGAIN .

    TELL HOW WILL YOUR ENGLISH SAVE YOU ??????????

    DON'T WANT TO KNOW ,IT IS YOUR PROBLEM ,FOR OVER FOUR YEARS I TALKED TO YOU .AND SEE HOW YOU THINKING ;


    T,

    We are talking about English and in that language saying the action of man is the same as saying the action of mankind.

    Quote
    PAUL JUST MENTION THAT IT WAS SOME THING THAT CAME FROM THE ACTION OF MAN ;AND WE KNOW BECAUSE GENESIS STORY ;

    That is what I have been saying though I choose to use the word mankind instead of the word man.


    K

    so measure your words with truth in scriptures NOT WITH HUMAN VIEWS ,INTELLECTUAL EGO ,

    BECAUSE THIS IS WHAT HAPPEN WHEN YOU MOVE AWAY FROM SCRIPTURES ;CONFUSION ,AND IT DOES NOT TEACH THE TRUTH ;BUT DECEIT


    T,

    Your words confuse me as I am not sure where your disagreement with my words is.  As far as I can tell is because of choice of the word “mankind” instead of man and possibly other like word choices.


    K

    [B]if mankind his guilty ,in that case Noah would have not survived the flood ,

    if it was the man Adam ,then all is good ,through one man sin enter and is solve by one man Christ ,

    scriptures say; ONE MAN”

    i HATE OPINIONS THAT GOES AGAINST SCRIPTURES ,DEFLATE YOU BIG HEAD ,

    YOU ,I,ANYONE ,WILL NOT BRING ANYTHING TO THE TRUTH OF GOD ,GET IT ???? GOD GIVES YOU DO NOT WANTED IT ,TOUGH LIVE FOR YOU AND YOURS ,GOT IT ???

    WE ALL HAVE TO CHOSE WHO WE WANT TO SERVE ;GOT IT ???


    T,

    Read the passage:

    Quote
    1Cr 15:21
    For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

    This translation states For since by mankind came death, by mankind came also the resurrection of the dead.  I am not interpreting it as all I did was switch out one word for another that means the same thing.


    K

    YOU ARE GROWING MORE AND MORE DULL TO THE TRUTH;

    Ge 2:15 The LORD God took the man and put him in the Garden of Eden to work it and take care of it.
    Ge 2:16 And the LORD God commanded the man, “You are free to eat
    from any tree in the garden;
    Ge 2:17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die.”

    WHO HIS “THE MAN ” WHAT IS HIS NAME ??? ” ADAM ” IS HIS NAME ,

    YOUR NAME HIS :KERWIN ; NOT PIERRE , NO I KNOW WE DID NOT SIN IN EDEN ;IT WAS THE MAN CALLED “ADAM”

    FULL .PICTURE, FULL PICTURE ,FULL PICTURE, GOT IT ,

    NOW I AM SURE YOU DO NOT GET IT ,

    #357290
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 10 2013,07:45)

    Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 10 2013,07:41)

    Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 10 2013,07:35)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 10 2013,02:38)

    Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 08 2013,13:25)
    A passage in Philippians 2 seems to hint at that possibility but it also seems to hint that he was not a servant and then became one.

    Is it wise to base a teaching on hints?


    Actually, that passage in Phil 2 directly and plainly explains how Jesus was existing in one form BEFORE emptying himself and being made in the likeness of a human being.

    It is only those who have personal wishes for Jesus to have been “exactly like us” who twist these easy-to-understand words from Paul……… and pretend that they don't understand the clear message he teaches in Phil 2.

    But even if it was just “hinted at” in Phil 2, there are loads of other scriptures that would change the “hint” to a sure thing.  (“I had glory with God before the world began”, “I came down from heaven”, “before Abraham existed, I have been”, etc.)

    You guys are as adept at pretending these scriptures (and many more) don't say what they're clearly saying as the Trinitarians are at pretending certain scriptures teach that Jesus is the very God he is the Son of.

    I don't have the patience to wade through your and Marty's semantics and word games anymore, Kerwin.

    Believe what you want.


    Mike,

    Do as you wish but the Philippians 2 argument clearly state Jesus “took upon him the form of a servant” which clearly means he did not have that form previously.  A Trinitarian could at best claim that hints at Jesus being God as angels are servants and so exist in the form of God already.

    The only way that Philippians 2:5-9 hints at Jesus taking the likeness of mankind after he already existed in the form of God is if you take verse 6-7 in chronological order.

    Neither of these are sound reasoning according the rules of logical reasoning because they are each flawed.

    In short Philippians 2:5-9 is at best weak circumstantial evidence for the case you are trying to make.


    k

    THERE IT SHOWS ” you do not believe in scriptures “

    THIS IS WHERE YOU ,MIKE AND i ,ARE GOING TO QUIT ,

    YOUR FLAWS ARE IN YOUR HEAD ,'YOU FIGHTING WITH GODS WORD ;BUT YOU DON'T CARE THIS WE CAN SEE BETTER NOW ,

    ADIÓS AMIGOS


    T,

    Do you not see what is there to see?

    Do you believe Jesus did not exist in the form of a servant before he “took on the form of a servant”?


    k

    THAT WAS NOT THE QUESTION ;WE ALL KNOW THAT CHRIST DID NOT EXISTED IN THE FORM OF A SERVANT :

    :D :D :D ;READ THE QUOTES, YOU ARE TOTALLY MIXUP

    #357296
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 09 2013,19:19)
    What do you intend when you wrote that Jesus was fathered directly by God?


    God, via His Holy Spirit, caused Mary to become pregnant with Jesus.

    God DIRECTLY caused Jesus to become born as a human being. No human father was involved.

    #357297
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 09 2013,19:35)
    The only way that Philippians 2:5-9 hints at Jesus taking the likeness of mankind after he already existed in the form of God is if you take verse 6-7 in chronological order.


    And why WOULDN'T you understand those events in chronological order, Kerwin? “Existing in the form of God……….. BUT emptied himself and took on a different form – that of a servant – by being made in the likeness of a human being.”

    Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 09 2013,19:35)
    In short Philippians 2:5-9 is at best weak circumstantial evidence for the case you are trying to make.


    I've just listed 3 other quotes from scripture that support this “weak circumstantial evidence”, Kerwin.  There are actually about 50 of them.

    #357298
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (Wakeup @ Sep. 09 2013,19:19)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 10 2013,11:03)

    Let me stop you right there, Wakeup.  The Son OF the Most High God is not also the Most High God.


    No; but he is the Word that proceeded out of God.


    So then, while Jesus was on earth, God couldn't speak because His Word was preoccupied? :)

    #357299
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 09 2013,19:45)
    Do you believe Jesus did not exist in the form of a servant before he “took on the form of a servant”?


    It seems like you are arguing OUR point, Kerwin.

    Of course Jesus couldn't have already existed in the form of a servant before taking on the form of a servant.

    But he could have existed in the form of God before taking on the form of a servant, right?  Oh yeah………. that's exactly what Paul taught us!  :)  He WAS existing in one form, but then emptied himself and took on a DIFFERENT form by being made in the likeness of a human being.

    And after being found in appearance as a human being, he humbled himself even further by becoming obedient to death.

    #357301
    jammin
    Participant

    Quote (942767 @ Sep. 06 2013,05:38)

    Quote (jammin @ Sep. 05 2013,14:56)

    Quote (942767 @ Sep. 03 2013,06:35)

    Quote (jammin @ Sep. 03 2013,00:06)

    Quote (942767 @ Aug. 30 2013,02:14)

    Quote (jammin @ Aug. 29 2013,21:50)

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 29 2013,14:22)

    Quote (jammin @ Aug. 29 2013,12:17)

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 29 2013,01:45)

    Quote (jammin @ Aug. 27 2013,21:56)

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 24 2013,03:04)
    Jammin…………..Was John so stupid , that if he wanted us to believe the WORD was JESUS , he couldn't just have written Jesus' name there? Why do you have to force the text to say what in fact it does not say, do you people know more then The Apostle John did, so you can freely just change the text to meet your dogmas. that is one of the reasons there is so much confusion in religion, people say all kind of things the scriptures are not saying. That is why we have so many different bible translations, Trinitarians and Preexistence preachers make their own translations of scripture to fit their false teachings. IMO

    Peace and love…………………………gene


    it is written in rev 19.13

    Revelation 19:13

    American Standard Version (ASV)

    13 And he is arrayed in a garment sprinkled with blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

    john knows that the Word in john 1.1 is Christ. rev 19.13 supports jn 1.1.


    jammin …….. Again you avoid the question , here it is again for you , point one, was John so stupid that if he wanted us to believe he was referring to Jesus he would not have written Jesus' name there instead of the word,  word? Point two, there is much debate concerning who wrote the Gospel of John, many scholars believe it was not John who even wrote the epistle of John, as I recall. Point three, why do you people have to change meanings of the written words used in the text to even meet your false dogmas anyway. Point four show us ONE SCRIPTURE ! where Jesus ever said He was a GOD of any kind . In fact Jesus said He had a GOD, Telling us he was going to his God and OUR GOD His FatherAnd OUR FATHER.

    It's ONLY false teachers who twist the truth of GOD, and force texts to say what in fact they do not say,  who TRY SO DESPERATELY to make, our BROTHER JESUS different then WE ARE. These false teacher deny the work of God “IN” Jesus Christ our LORD and MORE our BROTHER, in the house hold of GOD. Do you not think people who Even Preach Their Doctrines  of   SEPARATION   of Jesus' identity with us, are not under a curse? , THEY ARE, IMO

    Peace and love to you and yours………………………gene


    you want me to show you a verse that jesus said he is God?
    why do i need to give you verse like that if the apostles teach that Jesus is God (not the father but the son).

    the apostles teach us that the son is like his father. the son is also God by nature.
    he haS the form of God.
    he was God said by john in john 1.1
    thomas said my Lord and my God. john 20.28

    now give me verse that jesus said I AM NOT GOD


    Jammin……..So Jesus was lying when he prayed and said,  For Thou (someone other then the person speaking) art the “ONLY” “TRUE” GOD.
    Jesus said “ONLY”  that means there is NO OTHER “TRUE” God.

    No why don't you find a different translation that changes those word of Jesus, or maybe like you like Mike believe Those words Like Gods own Words saying he look for other Gods and found none is not meant to be taken emphatically.  Seems God the father and Jesus don't understand you people believe in all kinds of “OTHER GOD'S” .

    Maybe God the Father and Jesus, and the apostle Paul Just didn't know thar you people can see other Gods they can't see or for that matter never saw before. Well you can correct them when you meet then.

    BUT AS FOR ME I WILL JUST BELIEVE WHAT JESUS AND GOD THE FATHER HAVE SAID concerning OTHER GODS. You can believe in all the Gods you guys want to believe are true Gods.

    Peace and love…………………….gene


    jesus is not lying. there is only one TRUE GOD THE FATHER>

    i have no two God the father.
    i know only one.

    the problem with you is you dont understand what jesus told in john 17.1-3

    you should know how to read your bible well.
    why dont you study first before you talk??? does it make sense?

    i give you verse and im not explaining without basis. do you understand what i mean?

    believe it or not, john knows that the Word in john 1.1 is Christ himself.

    do more research boy


    Hi Jammin:

    So, you believe that Jesus is the creator?

    Then, please explain what God means by the following statement:

    Quote
    Isa 44:24 ¶ Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;

    God said that He stretcheth forth the heavens ALONE; and that spreadeth abroad the earth BY MYSELF.

    Love in Christ,
    Marty


    if you study the context of that book, it refers to the idols.

    verse 20 cev
    20 How can anyone be stupid enough to trust something that can be burned to ashes?[g] No one can save themselves like that. Don’t they realize that the idols they hold in their hands are not really gods?

    of course, idols cant do what God can do.
    do you k
    now what i mean?

    now we should know who is that GOD that talked to israel?
    is that the father or the son?

    no one knows the father but the son.
    therefore, israel before do not know the father. when the son became human, he revealed us the father.

    Luke 10:22

    Expanded Bible (EXB)

    22 “My Father has ·given [entrusted/committed to] me all things. No one knows who the Son is, except the Father. And no one knows who the Father is, except the Son and those whom the Son ·chooses [desires; intends] to ·tell [L reveal it to].”

    john told that all things were created by Christ.
    john 1.3

    paul said the son of God created all things.

    Colossians 1:16

    Contemporary English Version (CEV)

    16 Everything was created by him,
    everything in heaven
       and on earth,
    everything seen and unseen,
    including all forces
       and powers,
    and all rulers
       and authorities.
    All things were created
       by God’s Son,

    and everything was made
       for him.

    Colossians 1:16

    Living Bible (TLB)

    16 Christ himself is the Creator who made everything in heaven and earth, the things we can see and the things we can’t; the spirit world with its kings and kingdoms, its rulers and authorities; all were made by Christ for his own use and glory.


    Hi Jammin:

    If you look at the last verse, which states “all things were created for him”, you will understand that it is “God” that created all things for him, otherwise it would read, “all things were created for himself”.

    You are misunderstanding the scriptures.  Jesus is not the creator.  He is God's heir, and we are joint heirs with him.

    Love in Christ,
    Marty


    you are wrong.

    cant you see this?

    Living Bible (TLB)

    16 Christ himself is the Creator who made everything in heaven and earth, the things we can see and the things we can’t; the spirit world with its kings and kingdoms, its rulers and authorities; all were made by Christ for his own use and glory.

    and this?? ?
    Hebrews 1:10

    Expanded Bible (EXB)
    10 God also says,

    “Lord, in the beginning you ·made [L laid the foundations of] the earth,
       and your hands made the ·skies [heavens].

    you study more


    Hi Jammin:

    Why would God be telling Jesus that “in the beginning he laid the foundation of the earth”.  If this was so, he would already know this.

    This is what it means.  This is one of the definitions that Strong's concordance gives for the word “by” in Colossians 1.

    Quote

    II.
    through
    A.
    the ground or reason by which something is or is not done
    i.
    by reason of

    ii.
    on account of

    iii.
    because of for this reason

    iv.
    therefore

    v.
    on this account

    I already showed you scripture in which God said that He alone laid the foundation of the earth.  Also, Genesis 1 and Job 38 shows that this is a fact.

    Also, Jesus had a beginning.  When did Jesus become the “Only Begotten Son of God”?

    Love in Christ,
    Marty


    that God is Christ.

    you can read heb 1.10
    Hebrews 1:10

    Expanded Bible (EXB)

    10 God also says,

    “Lord, in the beginning you ·made [L laid the foundations of] the earth,
    and your hands made the ·skies [heavens].

    God said to his SON, you laid the foundations of the earth etc..

    you should know what john 1.3 wants to deliver to us

    #357302
    jammin
    Participant

    Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 06 2013,02:29)
    jammin

    Colossians 1:16 Click this icon to open a printer friendly page
    Context
    NET ©
    for all things in heaven and on earth were created by him – all things, whether visible or invisible, whether thrones or dominions, 1  whether principalities or powers – all things were created through him and for him.
    NIV ©
    For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.
    NASB ©
    For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him.
    NLT ©
    Christ is the one through whom God created everything in heaven and earth. He made the things we can see and the things we can’t see––kings, kingdoms, rulers, and authorities. Everything has been created through him and for him.
    MSG ©
    For everything, absolutely everything, above and below, visible and invisible, rank after rank after rank of angels–[everything] got started in him and finds its purpose in him.
    BBE ©
    For by him all things were made, in heaven and on earth, things seen and things unseen, authorities, lords, rulers, and powers; all things were made by him and for him;
    NRSV ©
    for in him all things in heaven and on earth were created, things visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or powers—all things have been created through him and for him.
    NKJV ©
    For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.
    KJV
    For
    by
    him
    were
    (0) all things
    created
    (5681)_, that are in
    heaven
    _, and
    that are in
    earth
    _, visible
    and
    invisible
    _, whether
    [they be] thrones
    _, or
    dominions
    _, or
    principalities
    _, or
    powers
    _: all things
    were created
    (5769) by
    him
    _, and
    for
    him
    _:
    NASB ©
    For by Him all
    things
    were created
    , both in the heavens
    and on earth
    , visible
    and invisible
    , whether
    thrones
    or
    dominions
    or
    rulers
    or
    authorities
    –all
    things
    have been created
    through
    Him and for Him.
    GREEK
    oti

    CONJen

    PREPautw

    P-DSMektisyh
    (5681)
    V-API-3Sta

    T-NPNpanta

    A-NPNen

    PREPtoiv

    T-DPMouranoiv

    N-DPMkai

    CONJepi

    PREPthv

    T-GSFghv

    N-GSFta

    T-NPNorata

    A-NPNkai

    CONJta

    T-NPNaorata

    A-NPNeite

    CONJyronoi

    N-NPMeite

    CONJkuriothtev

    N-NPFeite

    CONJarcai

    N-NPFeite

    CONJexousiai

    N-NPFta

    T-NPNpanta

    A-NPNdi

    PREPautou

    P-GSMkai

    CONJeiv

    PREPauton

    P-ASMektistai
    (5769)
    V-RPI-3S
    NET © [draft] ITL
    for
    all things
    in
    heaven
    and
    on
    earth
    were created
    by
    him
    – all things, whether visible
    or
    invisible
    , whether
    thrones
    or
    dominions
    , whether
    principalities
    or
    powers
    – all things
    were created
    through
    him
    and
    for
    him
    .
    NET ©
    for all things in heaven and on earth were created by him – all things, whether visible or invisible, whether thrones or dominions, 1  whether principalities or powers – all things were created through him and for him.
    NET © Notes
    1 tn BDAG 579 s.v. κυριότης 3 suggests “bearers of the ruling powers, dominions” here.
    Previous Verse Next Verse Previous Verse Next Verse

    many parts of scriptures have been altered ,some times only words ,and some times more ,but it is our responsibility before God to search him that love's  us ,if you do not ,you will pay the price of your refusal to act ;become a true believer is not read the bible and sit in a church and listen ,

    it is so that the understanding does not come out of WORDS  but out of the spirit (understanding of the words meaning as a whole ) that is also spread out into the entire scriptures and you,we, anyone that love's God will look for ,not by the power of man ,but by letting God's spirit guide us through his  written word, he as the key ,no man as the key ; all true believers that love God and his son ,will receive a key from God made for them personally ,to fit them ,but will also open the same gate to all other true believers ,what i mean is very spiritual ,but is true ;  


    what do you want to tell me???

    you dont understand that verse

    Colossians 1:16

    Expanded Bible (EXB)

    16 ·Through his power [L In him; or By him] all things were created [John 1:3; Heb. 1:2]—things in heaven and on earth, things seen and unseen, all ·powers [or heavenly authorities; L thrones], ·authorities [dominions; kingdoms], ·lords [rulers], and ·rulers [authorities; C these four may refer to angelic hierarchies, or to earthly and heavenly rulers]. All things were created through Christ and for Christ.

    pls read this

    Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible

    For by him were all things created,…. This is a reason proving Christ to be before all creatures, to be the common Parent of them, and to have the government over them, since he is the Creator of them.

    another proof
    Colossians 1:16

    Living Bible (TLB)

    16 Christ himself is the Creator who made everything in heaven and earth, the things we can see and the things we can’t; the spirit world with its kings and kingdoms, its rulers and authorities; all were made by Christ for his own use and glory.

    im not just making opinion..
    im giving word for word in the bible.

    #357305
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (jammin @ Sep. 10 2013,09:02)

    Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 06 2013,02:29)
    jammin

    Colossians 1:16 Click this icon to open a printer friendly page
    Context
    NET ©
    for all things in heaven and on earth were created by him – all things, whether visible or invisible, whether thrones or dominions, 1  whether principalities or powers – all things were created through him and for him.
    NIV ©
    For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.
    NASB ©
    For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him.
    NLT ©
    Christ is the one through whom God created everything in heaven and earth. He made the things we can see and the things we can’t see––kings, kingdoms, rulers, and authorities. Everything has been created through him and for him.
    MSG ©
    For everything, absolutely everything, above and below, visible and invisible, rank after rank after rank of angels–[everything] got started in him and finds its purpose in him.
    BBE ©
    For by him all things were made, in heaven and on earth, things seen and things unseen, authorities, lords, rulers, and powers; all things were made by him and for him;
    NRSV ©
    for in him all things in heaven and on earth were created, things visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or powers—all things have been created through him and for him.
    NKJV ©
    For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.
    KJV
    For
    by
    him
    were
    (0) all things
    created
    (5681)_, that are in
    heaven
    _, and
    that are in
    earth
    _, visible
    and
    invisible
    _, whether
    [they be] thrones
    _, or
    dominions
    _, or
    principalities
    _, or
    powers
    _: all things
    were created
    (5769) by
    him
    _, and
    for
    him
    _:
    NASB ©
    For by Him all
    things
    were created
    , both in the heavens
    and on earth
    , visible
    and invisible
    , whether
    thrones
    or
    dominions
    or
    rulers
    or
    authorities
    –all
    things
    have been created
    through
    Him and for Him.
    GREEK
    oti

    CONJen

    PREPautw

    P-DSMektisyh
    (5681)
    V-API-3Sta

    T-NPNpanta

    A-NPNen

    PREPtoiv

    T-DPMouranoiv

    N-DPMkai

    CONJepi

    PREPthv

    T-GSFghv

    N-GSFta

    T-NPNorata

    A-NPNkai

    CONJta

    T-NPNaorata

    A-NPNeite

    CONJyronoi

    N-NPMeite

    CONJkuriothtev

    N-NPFeite

    CONJarcai

    N-NPFeite

    CONJexousiai

    N-NPFta

    T-NPNpanta

    A-NPNdi

    PREPautou

    P-GSMkai

    CONJeiv

    PREPauton

    P-ASMektistai
    (5769)
    V-RPI-3S
    NET © [draft] ITL
    for
    all things
    in
    heaven
    and
    on
    earth
    were created
    by
    him
    – all things, whether visible
    or
    invisible
    , whether
    thrones
    or
    dominions
    , whether
    principalities
    or
    powers
    – all things
    were created
    through
    him
    and
    for
    him
    .
    NET ©
    for all things in heaven and on earth were created by him – all things, whether visible or invisible, whether thrones or dominions, 1  whether principalities or powers – all things were created through him and for him.
    NET © Notes
    1 tn BDAG 579 s.v. κυριότης 3 suggests “bearers of the ruling powers, dominions” here.
    Previous Verse Next Verse Previous Verse Next Verse

    many parts of scriptures have been altered ,some times only words ,and some times more ,but it is our responsibility before God to search him that love's  us ,if you do not ,you will pay the price of your refusal to act ;become a true believer is not read the bible and sit in a church and listen ,

    it is so that the understanding does not come out of WORDS  but out of the spirit (understanding of the words meaning as a whole ) that is also spread out into the entire scriptures and you,we, anyone that love's God will look for ,not by the power of man ,but by letting God's spirit guide us through his  written word, he as the key ,no man as the key ; all true believers that love God and his son ,will receive a key from God made for them personally ,to fit them ,but will also open the same gate to all other true believers ,what i mean is very spiritual ,but is true ;  


    what do you want to tell me???

    you dont understand that verse

    Colossians 1:16

    Expanded Bible (EXB)

    16 ·Through his power [L In him; or By him] all things were created [John 1:3; Heb. 1:2]—things in heaven and on earth, things seen and unseen, all ·powers [or heavenly authorities; L thrones], ·authorities [dominions; kingdoms], ·lords [rulers], and ·rulers [authorities; C these four may refer to angelic hierarchies, or to earthly and heavenly rulers]. All things were created through Christ and for Christ.

    pls read this

    Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible

    For by him were all things created,…. This is a reason proving Christ to be before all creatures, to be the common Parent of them, and to have the government over them, since he is the Creator of them.

    another proof
    Colossians 1:16

    Living Bible (TLB)

    16 Christ himself is the Creator who made everything in heaven and earth, the things we can see and the things we can’t; the spirit world with its kings and kingdoms, its rulers and authorities; all were made by Christ for his own use and glory.

    im not just making opinion..
    im giving word for word in the bible.


    Jammin

    I going to tell nothing ;because i can not tell anything more than what is in the scriptures ,

    all my knowledge and understanding starts and finishes in the scriptures ,with a ton of prayers ,

    I think we do not belong or live into the same world ,

    the best to you in your traveling ;were ever you may go

    #357307
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 10 2013,07:52)

    Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 10 2013,07:45)

    Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 10 2013,07:41)

    Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 10 2013,07:35)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 10 2013,02:38)

    Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 08 2013,13:25)
    A passage in Philippians 2 seems to hint at that possibility but it also seems to hint that he was not a servant and then became one.

    Is it wise to base a teaching on hints?


    Actually, that passage in Phil 2 directly and plainly explains how Jesus was existing in one form BEFORE emptying himself and being made in the likeness of a human being.

    It is only those who have personal wishes for Jesus to have been “exactly like us” who twist these easy-to-understand words from Paul……… and pretend that they don't understand the clear message he teaches in Phil 2.

    But even if it was just “hinted at” in Phil 2, there are loads of other scriptures that would change the “hint” to a sure thing.  (“I had glory with God before the world began”, “I came down from heaven”, “before Abraham existed, I have been”, etc.)

    You guys are as adept at pretending these scriptures (and many more) don't say what they're clearly saying as the Trinitarians are at pretending certain scriptures teach that Jesus is the very God he is the Son of.

    I don't have the patience to wade through your and Marty's semantics and word games anymore, Kerwin.

    Believe what you want.


    Mike,

    Do as you wish but the Philippians 2 argument clearly state Jesus “took upon him the form of a servant” which clearly means he did not have that form previously.  A Trinitarian could at best claim that hints at Jesus being God as angels are servants and so exist in the form of God already.

    The only way that Philippians 2:5-9 hints at Jesus taking the likeness of mankind after he already existed in the form of God is if you take verse 6-7 in chronological order.

    Neither of these are sound reasoning according the rules of logical reasoning because they are each flawed.

    In short Philippians 2:5-9 is at best weak circumstantial evidence for the case you are trying to make.


    k

    THERE IT SHOWS ” you do not believe in scriptures “

    THIS IS WHERE YOU ,MIKE AND i ,ARE GOING TO QUIT ,

    YOUR FLAWS ARE IN YOUR HEAD ,'YOU FIGHTING WITH GODS WORD ;BUT YOU DON'T CARE THIS WE CAN SEE BETTER NOW ,

    ADIÓS AMIGOS


    T,

    Do you not see what is there to see?

    Do you believe Jesus did not exist in the form of a servant before he “took on the form of a servant”?


    k

    THAT WAS NOT THE QUESTION ;WE ALL KNOW THAT CHRIST DID NOT EXISTED IN THE FORM OF A SERVANT :

    :D  :D  :D ;READ  THE QUOTES, YOU ARE TOTALLY MIXUP


    T,

    Are you claiming that you believe that the preexistent Christ was not a servant of God?

    #357308
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 10 2013,08:23)

    Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 09 2013,19:19)
    What do you intend when you wrote that Jesus was fathered directly by God?


    God, via His Holy Spirit, caused Mary to become pregnant with Jesus.

    God DIRECTLY caused Jesus to become born as a human being.  No human father was involved.


    Mike,

    Do you believe God used the Holy Spirit to have sex with Mary in order to father Jesus?

    #357309
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 10 2013,08:28)

    Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 09 2013,19:35)
    The only way that Philippians 2:5-9 hints at Jesus taking the likeness of mankind after he already existed in the form of God is if you take verse 6-7 in chronological order.


    And why WOULDN'T you understand those events in chronological order, Kerwin?  “Existing in the form of God……….. BUT emptied himself and took on a different form – that of a servant – by being made in the likeness of a human being.”

    Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 09 2013,19:35)
    In short Philippians 2:5-9 is at best weak circumstantial evidence for the case you are trying to make.


    I've just listed 3 other quotes from scripture that support this “weak circumstantial evidence”, Kerwin.  There are actually about 50 of them.


    Mike,

    I hope to look at your other proofs when I am feeling less under the weather.

    #357310
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 10 2013,08:34)

    Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 09 2013,19:45)
    Do you believe Jesus did not exist in the form of a servant before he “took on the form of a servant”?


    It seems like you are arguing OUR point, Kerwin.

    Of course Jesus couldn't have already existed in the form of a servant before taking on the form of a servant.

    But he could have existed in the form of God before taking on the form of a servant, right?  Oh yeah………. that's exactly what Paul taught us!  :)  He WAS existing in one form, but then emptied himself and took on a DIFFERENT form by being made in the likeness of a human being.

    And after being found in appearance as a human being, he humbled himself even further by becoming obedient to death.


    Mike,

    It seems you believe servant is a synonym of human in the statement “took on the form of a servant”.

    #357312
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 10 2013,10:03)

    Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 10 2013,07:52)

    Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 10 2013,07:45)

    Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 10 2013,07:41)

    Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 10 2013,07:35)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 10 2013,02:38)

    Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 08 2013,13:25)
    A passage in Philippians 2 seems to hint at that possibility but it also seems to hint that he was not a servant and then became one.

    Is it wise to base a teaching on hints?


    Actually, that passage in Phil 2 directly and plainly explains how Jesus was existing in one form BEFORE emptying himself and being made in the likeness of a human being.

    It is only those who have personal wishes for Jesus to have been “exactly like us” who twist these easy-to-understand words from Paul……… and pretend that they don't understand the clear message he teaches in Phil 2.

    But even if it was just “hinted at” in Phil 2, there are loads of other scriptures that would change the “hint” to a sure thing.  (“I had glory with God before the world began”, “I came down from heaven”, “before Abraham existed, I have been”, etc.)

    You guys are as adept at pretending these scriptures (and many more) don't say what they're clearly saying as the Trinitarians are at pretending certain scriptures teach that Jesus is the very God he is the Son of.

    I don't have the patience to wade through your and Marty's semantics and word games anymore, Kerwin.

    Believe what you want.


    Mike,

    Do as you wish but the Philippians 2 argument clearly state Jesus “took upon him the form of a servant” which clearly means he did not have that form previously.  A Trinitarian could at best claim that hints at Jesus being God as angels are servants and so exist in the form of God already.

    The only way that Philippians 2:5-9 hints at Jesus taking the likeness of mankind after he already existed in the form of God is if you take verse 6-7 in chronological order.

    Neither of these are sound reasoning according the rules of logical reasoning because they are each flawed.

    In short Philippians 2:5-9 is at best weak circumstantial evidence for the case you are trying to make.


    k

    THERE IT SHOWS ” you do not believe in scriptures “

    THIS IS WHERE YOU ,MIKE AND i ,ARE GOING TO QUIT ,

    YOUR FLAWS ARE IN YOUR HEAD ,'YOU FIGHTING WITH GODS WORD ;BUT YOU DON'T CARE THIS WE CAN SEE BETTER NOW ,

    ADIÓS AMIGOS


    T,

    Do you not see what is there to see?

    Do you believe Jesus did not exist in the form of a servant before he “took on the form of a servant”?


    k

    THAT WAS NOT THE QUESTION ;WE ALL KNOW THAT CHRIST DID NOT EXISTED IN THE FORM OF A SERVANT :

    :D  :D  :D ;READ  THE QUOTES, YOU ARE TOTALLY MIXUP


    T,

    Are you claiming that you believe that the preexistent Christ was not a servant of God?


    Scriptures says he was the first of God,s creation

    This is why he his the only begotten son of God ,

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