John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 13,361 through 13,380 (of 26,009 total)
  • Author
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  • #351044
    kerwin
    Participant

    T,

    James 1:6-7
    King James Version (KJV)

    6 But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.
    7 For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord.

    Do you thing Jesus did not ask in faith?

    #351060
    2besee
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ July 16 2013,19:05)

    Quote (terraricca @ July 16 2013,10:16)

    Quote (kerwin @ July 16 2013,10:13)
    T,

    Is Jesus just?
    Do the just live by faith?


    kerwin

    let see if you know this ? WHAT IS A JUST MEN ???


    T,

    A righteous man.


    Kerwin,
    Have you read any of the book of wisdom? It's in my bible (The Jerusalem Bible) but not in many others.
    Apparently it was written approximately 50BC.
    I'm posting this because I think it has a bit to do with what you are talking about, regarding the righteous man (upright in this version) -for your reading!

    Chapter 2.

    10 'As for the upright man who is poor, let us oppress him; let us not spare the widow, nor respect old age, white-haired with many years.

    11 Let our might be the yardstick of right, since weakness argues its own futility.

    12 Let us lay traps for the upright man, since he annoys us and opposes our way of life, reproaches us for our sins against the Law, and accuses us of sins against our upbringing.

    13 He claims to have knowledge of God, and calls himself a child of the Lord.

    14 We see him as a reproof to our way of thinking, the very sight of him weighs our spirits down;

    15 for his kind of life is not like other people's, and his ways are quite different.

    16 In his opinion we are counterfeit; he avoids our ways as he would filth; he proclaims the final end of the upright as blessed and boasts of having God for his father.

    17 Let us see if what he says is true, and test him to see what sort of end he will have.

    18 For if the upright man is God's son, God will help him and rescue him from the clutches of his enemies.

    19 Let us test him with cruelty and with torture, and thus explore this gentleness of his and put his patience to the test.

    20 Let us condemn him to a shameful death since God will rescue him — or so he claims.'

    21 This is the way they reason, but they are misled, since their malice makes them blind.

    22 They do not know the hidden things of God, they do not hope for the reward of holiness, they do not believe in a reward for blameless souls.

    23 For God created human beings to be immortal, he made them as an image of his own nature;

    24 Death came into the world only through the Devil's envy, as those who belong to him find to their cost.

    Chapter 3.

    1 But the souls of the upright are in the hands of God, and no torment can touch them.

    2 To the unenlightened, they appeared to die, their departure was regarded as disaster,

    3 their leaving us like annihilation; but they are at peace.

    4 If, as it seemed to us, they suffered punishment, their hope was rich with immortality;

    5 slight was their correction, great will their blessings be. God was putting them to the test and has proved them worthy to be with him;

    6 he has tested them like gold in a furnace, and accepted them as a perfect burnt offering.

    7 At their time of visitation, they will shine out; as sparks run through the stubble, so will they.

    8 They will judge nations, rule over peoples, and the Lord will be their king for ever.

    9 Those who trust in him will understand the truth, those who are faithful will live with him in love; for grace and mercy await his holy ones, and he intervenes on behalf of his chosen.

    #351066
    terraricca
    Participant

    2bee

    Quote
    Have you read any of the book of wisdom? It's in my bible (The Jerusalem Bible) but not in many others.
    Apparently it was written approximately 50BC.

    I have that bible as well and read it but the book you are quoting is apocrypha meams that is not accepted as part of the word of God ,but rather the words of men ,it is in those books that the Catholic find their truth ,most of those books if not all are glorifying men,instead of God almighty,

    so I would not advice anyone to read them but they can if they so chose so ,but it is not godly food ,

    #351072
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 18 2013,10:30)

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 17 2013,11:46)
    God said there were no other Gods besides him and told us not to have any other Gods besides Him. Does the word hypocrisy mean any thing to you?


    Jesus said ONLY God was good, but then called himself the “good shepherd”, and spoke parables about “good” human beings bringing “good” things out of the “goodness” of their hearts.

    Was Jesus a hypocrite, Gene?  YES or NO?

    And if “NO”, then how do you explain this conundrum?

    Again, if you cannot explain it, it means you don't know.  And those who don't know should remain silent and listen to others…….. instead of speaking.

    Gene, there is a good adage that applies to you:

    It's better to remain silent and let others think you're an idiot than to open your mouth and remove all doubt.

    Did you find the words of my last two posts a little harsh, Gene?  Good!  Now you know how I feel about being called a “false teacher” and a person who “tries to separate Jesus from us”.  You talk too much stupid crap, and then RUN AWAY from the simple questions I ask – questions that would scripturally prove you wrong if you were ever man enough to answer them.  We get sick of it, Gene.  We can only take so much before striking back.


    Mike and Pierre……..I explained this before to you, but your biased filters seem to filter it out, I will restate it again for you. a Good MECHANIC or “Sheppard”, does not nessarely Make a GOOD “PERSON”. I Knew a “GOOD” Mechanic once, who was convicted of 4 MURDERS, and is Now on death row. But in you line of reasoning, i would have to say he was a “GOOD” PERSON also after all he was a “GOOD” Mechanic. Can you now see you folly? Learn to believe what Jesus said and if he said He did not take that title of being labeled Good on, and that “ONLY” GOD was GOOD ,Just believe it. Even if Jesus was a good person in a general sense, he did not want that glory put on him, espically sense he was doing the FATHERS WILL, not his own WILL.

    GOD only is Good, i agree with Jesus, but i realize you and your Co-hart, dont agree with him and God the Father on many things, and i think your own criticising CRAP, applies to you two more then anyone else here. IMO

    peace and love to you and yours……………………………..gene

    #351077
    kerwin
    Participant

    2besee,

    Those particular words sound correct but I read the book of Wisdom a decade or so back and believe I found some contradictions with Scripture.

    My point is that since the just live by faith and Jesus is just then he lives by faith.

    T claim that Jesus had knowledge and so did not have faith. He does not see that it was faith that led Jesus to say “if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.”

    #351081
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (terraricca @ July 18 2013,09:01)
    K

    Quote
    T,

    1)I already states a just man is a righteous man.

     2)A sinner who changes his ways and does all that is right is a just(righteous) man. God does not remember his sins.

     3)A just man, even a ex sinner, lives by faith.

     4)There is but one Christ, the man Jesus son of David.  5) The fact he is Christ and all that applies does not mean he is an exception that the just live by faith.

    6)We have to believe Jesus is the Christ, but that is seen by his teachings, his miracles and his other works. That does not negate that the righteous live by faith.

    1)so a just man is the same than a righteous man ,correct ,those man are doing the will of God and so do not sin .

    2)all man are sinner we have already agree on this with the scriptures so all of us have to get out of our sinful way and believe that Christ who is send by God his father can help us and do that all our sins are forgiven ,we do not know this but we hope it is done ,so we will see later in time of judgment if we deserved it ,this HIS OUR FAITH ,BUT UNLESS WE PRODUCE THE DEEDS OF THAT FAITH ,WE WILL NOT RECEIVE ANY OF THE PROMISES GOD AS GIVEN TO HIS SON FOR US ,

    3)this is covered in #2



    T,

    I get the feeling you do not want to answer my questions as they are.

    The first 3 seem to be points we agree on.

    Quote
    NO MAN BORN OF A WOMEN AND A MAN CAN SAVE ANYONE ;BECAUSE A SINNER CAN NOT EVEN SAVE HIMSELF FROM SIN AND UNTIL CHRIST

    Could you give me the Scripture because I am not sure where it is or what to search for to find it.

    Even before Christ the Just lived by faith though like Abraham they were credited with righteousness.

    Quote
    SHOW ME THAT JESUS IS A DESCENDANT OF DAVID IF JOSEPH IS NOT HIS FATHER

    Romans 1:3
    King James Version (KJV)

    3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;

    Quote
    ,AND SHOW ME UNDER WHAT LAW CAN SHE BREAK THE CURSE OF THE SIN  FROM ADAM,???

    I do not know who she is but God broke the curse because Jesus was upheld and elected by God to do so and he was true.

    Isaiah 42:1
    King James Version (KJV)

    42 Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.

    Quote
    believing that he his the true and only begotten son of God

    Yes

    Quote
    that God his father as send him down to earth to be born from a women and so to fulfill all what it is said about him in the prophets and the Psalm

    No

    Quote
    that he died for our sins as a righteous and sinless man

    Yes

    Quote
    that after his resurrection he returned to his father and took his previous glory back

    Not written

    Quote
    ) and that he now sits on the right side of God his father

    Yes

    #351085
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ July 19 2013,00:17)
    2besee,

    Those particular words sound correct but I read the book of Wisdom a decade or so back and believe I found some contradictions with Scripture.

    My point is that since the just live by faith and Jesus is just then he lives by faith.

    T claim that Jesus had knowledge and so did not have faith.  He does not see that it was faith that led Jesus to say “if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.”


    k

    Quote
    T claim that Jesus had knowledge and so did not have faith. He does not see that it was faith that led Jesus to say “if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.”

    WHAT CHRIST PRAYED FOR WAS NOT IN IGNORANCE AS I CAN UNDERSTAND IT ,A REQUEST IS NOT EQUAL TO FAITH ; AND YOU DID NOT ANSWER THAT QUESTION EITHER ,

    WERE IN SCRIPTURES DOES IT SAYS THAT CHRIST WALKED BY FAITH ???

    THE FACT THAT HE IS A RIGHTEOUS DOES NOT EQUAL FAITH ONLY IF YOU ARE IGNORANT ,IF YOU BELIEVE THIS THEN YOU WOULD ALSO BELIEVE THAT ;THE ARCHITECT THAT BUILT A BUILDING IS ALSO HIS BUILDING ;

    A RIGHTEOUS IS A PERSON THAT WALKS IN THE KNOWLEDGE OF GODS WORDS AND APPLY THEM IN HIS LIFE ,AND HE DOES THAT BY THE BELIEVE THAT HE WILL BE APPROVED BY GOD ,BUT HE DOES NOT KNOW GOD ,ONLY THROUGH THE SCRIPTURES DOES HE KNOW HIM SO HE WALK IN FAITH UNTIL THE DAY THAT GOD WILL REVEL HIMSELF TO HIM THROUGH THAT PERSON RESURRECTION ,UNTIL THEN WE WALK IN FAITH

    #351086
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ July 18 2013,11:12)
    T,

    James 1:6-7
    King James Version (KJV)

    6 But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.
    7 For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord.

    Do you thing Jesus did not ask in faith?


    k

    YOU ARE MIXING FAITH WITH A SIMPLE REQUEST ,BUT CHRIST KNEW THE ANSWER BEFORE HE ASK ;BUT YOU MIST IT ,THINK

    #351087
    terraricca
    Participant

    K

    Quote
    T,

    Is Jesus just?
    Do the just live by faith?

    yes Jesus his a righteous man ,he is the son of God, he came down from heaven to do the will of his father and make is father known to us,and die for our sins ,he also came to accomplish all what was said about the Christ in the scriptures ,

    A MAN THAT WALKED TO ACCOMPLISH A MISSION DOES NOT WALK BY FAITH BUT BY THE KNOWLEDGE OF HIS PAD ,HE BECAME THE LIVING PAD FOR US ALL AND CLAIM THAT ONE OF THE REQUIREMENT OF IS ,IS TO HAVE FAITH IN HIM ,IN WHAT HE AS TOLD US ,WHAT HE TOLD US COME FROM HIS FATHER WHOM HE KNEW WELL,;

    FAITH = BELIEVING AND TRUSTING ,FAITH WILL GO AWAY WEN OUR KNOWLEDGE WILL TAKE OVER AND SO IS NO LONGER UNKNOWN BUT KNOWN AND SO THE IGNORANCE AS GIVEN PLACE TO THE KNOWLEDGE

    #351093
    2besee
    Participant

    Terraricca, It is NOT just the Catholic Bibles which have the extra books in them – they are also in the RSV and some versions of the KJV and probably more, including the eastern orthodox church and the Ethiopian church. They were accepted by the earliest Christians and fragments if them were found in the dead sea scrolls.

    Quote Wikipedia:

    Their acceptance among early Christians was widespread, though not universal, and the Bible of the early Church always included, with varying degrees of recognition, books now called deuterocanonical. Some say that their canonicity seems not to have been doubted in the Church until it was challenged by Jews after AD 100, sometimes postulating a hypothetical Council of Jamnia. Regional councils in the West published official canons that included these books as early as the 4th and 5th centuries.

    #351094
    2besee
    Participant

    Kerwin,
    My Jerusalem bible – I love it.
    It has each Bible chapter with a heading title and does not have double columns but single, so it's more like a book and thick.
    It has the name Yahweh all through the Old Testament.
    It was translated word for word from the original Hebrew, Greek, and Aramaic rather than from the Latin vulgate.

    Regarding the book of wisdom, this is from wikipedia:

    Personification of Wisdom

    There are found in the Book of Wisdom and other books of the wisdom literature to Wisdom as a personification with divine attributes.

    In chapter seven, Wisdom is said to be “the fashioner of all things” (v. 22). Because she fashions all things, is “an associate in his [God’s] works” (8:4), and is a “pure emanation of the glory of the Almighty” (7:25), Wisdom is eternal and one in being (consubstantial) with the Father. Because Wisdom is God’s “creative agent”, she must be intimately identified with God himself.

    It has been claimed that the most definite indication that personified Wisdom refers to the Messiah is the alleged paraphrasing of Wis 7:26 in Heb 1:3a. Wis 7:26 says that “she is a reflection of eternal light, a spotless mirror of the working of God, and an image of his goodness.” The author of Hebrews says of Christ: “He reflects the glory of God and bears the very stamp of his nature, upholding the universe by his word of power.”

    Wisdom 9:17 “Who has learned your counsel, unless you have given wisdom and sent your holy spirit from on high?”. The next verse says that salvation is an act of Wisdom. In Christianity salvation is an activity reserved for God, but it is here given to Wisdom, thus identifying them with one another.

    Wisdom 2

    Some may see the second chapter of the Book of Wisdom (Wisdom 2) as building up to a prophecy of Christ’s passion. First the ungodly men are described (Wis 1:16-2:9), followed by their plotting against the righteous man (2:10-20). The passage describes in detail the treatment of Jesus by the Jewish authorities. The first indication for some that it is a prophecy of the Messiah is in verse 11. Where the RSV reads “weak”, the Greek has “achreston” (ἄχρηστον), which some may claim is a play on the title Christos (Χριστός). Verse 12 is a quote of the LXX version of Is 3:10; Is 3:10 was allegedly taken to refer to Jesus in the 1st-century Epistle of Barnabas.

    On the whole, this treatment of the suffering of the righteous man is heavily indebted to Isaiah; particularly the fourth Suffering Servant song (Is 52:13-53:12).  Verse 13 uses pais (παῖς), child or servant, from Is 52:13. Verse 15 says his very sight is a burden, referencing Is 53:2. In verse 16 he calls God his father, which is thought to be based on a poor understanding of pais as in Is 52:13. Verse 18 is comparable to Is 42:1. Verse 19 makes reference to Is 53:7. A final reference to the Messiah is the righteous man’s “shameful death” in verse 20. This death has been identified with Jesus’ death on a cross, a cursed death hanging on a tree.

    In the realm of Bible criticism and theology, all sorts of opinions are held by all sorts of persons, whether ordinary persons or university professors. Some opine that the Gospel of Matthew may contain allusions to the Wisdom of Solomon in the structuring of Matthew's Passion Narrative. Supposed parallels between Wisdom and Matthew include the theme of testing, and the mocking of a servant of God's claim to be protected by God. Matthew's gospel teaches that Jesus is the suffering servant of God.

    As another example of the myriad opinions and interpretations of the Bible: while some think that Wis 2:17-18, “Let us see if his words are true, and let us test what will happen at the end of his life; for if the righteous man is God’s son, he will help him, and will deliver him from the hand of his adversaries,” was an influence on Mt 27:43, “He trusts in God; let God deliver him now, if he desires him; for he said, ‘I am the Son of God.’” it is more natural to see it as a reference to Ps 22:8 “He trusted on the LORD that he would deliver him: let him deliver him, seeing he delighted in him.”

    #351096
    2besee
    Participant

    Quote
    My point is that since the just live by faith and Jesus is just then he lives by faith.

    T claim that Jesus had knowledge and so did not have faith. He does not see that it was faith that led Jesus to say “if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.

    Kerwin, Of course Jesus had faith.
    Do you see anywhere in scriptures where it says “He did not have faith”, of course not. Jesus had faith, PLENTY of faith.
    I don't know what Terraricca is saying, I think he just likes to say that some are wrong?

    #351103
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (2besee @ July 19 2013,06:23)
    Terraricca, It is NOT just the Catholic Bibles which have the extra books in them – they are also in the RSV and some versions of the KJV and probably more, including the eastern orthodox church and the Ethiopian church. They were accepted by the earliest Christians and fragments if them were found in the dead sea scrolls.

    Quote Wikipedia:

    Their acceptance among early Christians was widespread, though not universal, and the Bible of the early Church always included, with varying degrees of recognition, books now called deuterocanonical. Some say that their canonicity seems not to have been doubted in the Church until it was challenged by Jews after AD 100, sometimes postulating a hypothetical Council of Jamnia. Regional councils in the West published official canons that included these books as early as the 4th and 5th centuries.


    that was not my point ,

    #351104
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (2besee @ July 19 2013,06:24)
    Kerwin,
    My Jerusalem bible – I love it.
    It has each Bible chapter with a heading title and does not have double columns but single, so it's more like a book and thick.
    It has the name Yahweh all through the Old Testament.
    It was translated word for word from the original Hebrew, Greek, and Aramaic rather than from the Latin vulgate.

    Regarding the book of wisdom, this is from wikipedia:

    Personification of Wisdom

    There are found in the Book of Wisdom and other books of the wisdom literature to Wisdom as a personification with divine attributes.

    In chapter seven, Wisdom is said to be “the fashioner of all things” (v. 22). Because she fashions all things, is “an associate in his [God’s] works” (8:4), and is a “pure emanation of the glory of the Almighty” (7:25), Wisdom is eternal and one in being (consubstantial) with the Father. Because Wisdom is God’s “creative agent”, she must be intimately identified with God himself.

    It has been claimed that the most definite indication that personified Wisdom refers to the Messiah is the alleged paraphrasing of Wis 7:26 in Heb 1:3a. Wis 7:26 says that “she is a reflection of eternal light, a spotless mirror of the working of God, and an image of his goodness.” The author of Hebrews says of Christ: “He reflects the glory of God and bears the very stamp of his nature, upholding the universe by his word of power.”

    Wisdom 9:17 “Who has learned your counsel, unless you have given wisdom and sent your holy spirit from on high?”. The next verse says that salvation is an act of Wisdom. In Christianity salvation is an activity reserved for God, but it is here given to Wisdom, thus identifying them with one another.

    Wisdom 2

    Some may see the second chapter of the Book of Wisdom (Wisdom 2) as building up to a prophecy of Christ’s passion. First the ungodly men are described (Wis 1:16-2:9), followed by their plotting against the righteous man (2:10-20). The passage describes in detail the treatment of Jesus by the Jewish authorities. The first indication for some that it is a prophecy of the Messiah is in verse 11. Where the RSV reads “weak”, the Greek has “achreston” (ἄχρηστον), which some may claim is a play on the title Christos (Χριστός). Verse 12 is a quote of the LXX version of Is 3:10; Is 3:10 was allegedly taken to refer to Jesus in the 1st-century Epistle of Barnabas.

    On the whole, this treatment of the suffering of the righteous man is heavily indebted to Isaiah; particularly the fourth Suffering Servant song (Is 52:13-53:12).  Verse 13 uses pais (παῖς), child or servant, from Is 52:13. Verse 15 says his very sight is a burden, referencing Is 53:2. In verse 16 he calls God his father, which is thought to be based on a poor understanding of pais as in Is 52:13. Verse 18 is comparable to Is 42:1. Verse 19 makes reference to Is 53:7. A final reference to the Messiah is the righteous man’s “shameful death” in verse 20. This death has been identified with Jesus’ death on a cross, a cursed death hanging on a tree.

    In the realm of Bible criticism and theology, all sorts of opinions are held by all sorts of persons, whether ordinary persons or university professors. Some opine that the Gospel of Matthew may contain allusions to the Wisdom of Solomon in the structuring of Matthew's Passion Narrative. Supposed parallels between Wisdom and Matthew include the theme of testing, and the mocking of a servant of God's claim to be protected by God. Matthew's gospel teaches that Jesus is the suffering servant of God.

    As another example of the myriad opinions and interpretations of the Bible: while some think that Wis 2:17-18, “Let us see if his words are true, and let us test what will happen at the end of his life; for if the righteous man is God’s son, he will help him, and will deliver him from the hand of his adversaries,” was an influence on Mt 27:43, “He trusts in God; let God deliver him now, if he desires him; for he said, ‘I am the Son of God.’” it is more natural to see it as a reference to Ps 22:8 “He trusted on the LORD that he would deliver him: let him deliver him, seeing he delighted in him.”


    2bee and kerwin

    please read this and see if you can understand what is really going on and what really happen;

    Lk 24:13 Now that same day two of them were going to a village called Emmaus, about seven miles from Jerusalem.
    Lk 24:14 They were talking with each other about everything that had happened.
    Lk 24:15 As they talked and discussed these things with each other, Jesus himself came up and walked along with them;
    Lk 24:16 but they were kept from recognizing him.
    Lk 24:17 He asked them, “What are you discussing together as you walk along?”
    They stood still, their faces downcast.
    Lk 24:18 One of them, named Cleopas, asked him, “Are you only a visitor to Jerusalem and do not know the things that have happened there in these days?”
    Lk 24:19 “What things?” he asked.
    “About Jesus of Nazareth,” they replied. “He was a prophet, powerful in word and deed before God and all the people.
    Lk 24:20 The chief priests and our rulers handed him over to be sentenced to death, and they crucified him;
    Lk 24:21 but we had hoped that he was the one who was going to redeem Israel. And what is more, it is the third day since all this took place.
    Lk 24:22 In addition, some of our women amazed us. They went to the tomb early this morning
    Lk 24:23 but didn’t find his body. They came and told us that they had seen a vision of angels, who said he was alive.
    Lk 24:24 Then some of our companions went to the tomb and found it just as the women had said, but him they did not see.”
    Lk 24:25 He said to them, “How foolish you are, and how slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken!
    Lk 24:26 Did not the Christ have to suffer these things and then enter his glory?”

    Lk 24:26 Did not the Christ have to suffer these things and then enter his glory?”
    Lk 24:27 And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he explained to them what was said in all the Scriptures concerning himself.
    Lk 24:28 As they approached the village to which they were going, Jesus acted as if he were going farther.
    Lk 24:29 But they urged him strongly, “Stay with us, for it is nearly evening; the day is almost over.” So he went in to stay with them.
    Lk 24:30 When he was at the table with them, he took bread, gave thanks, broke it and began to give it to them.
    Lk 24:31 Then their eyes were opened and they recognized him, and he disappeared from their sight.
    Lk 24:32 They asked each other, “Were not our hearts burning within us while he talked with us on the road and opened the Scriptures to us?”
    Lk 24:33 They got up and returned at once to Jerusalem. There they found the Eleven and those with them, assembled together
    Lk 24:34 and saying, “It is true! The Lord has risen and has appeared to Simon.”
    Lk 24:35 Then the two told what had happened on the way, and how Jesus was recognized by them when he broke the bread.

    #351110
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (terraricca @ July 19 2013,04:39)

    Quote (kerwin @ July 19 2013,00:17)
    2besee,

    Those particular words sound correct but I read the book of Wisdom a decade or so back and believe I found some contradictions with Scripture.

    My point is that since the just live by faith and Jesus is just then he lives by faith.

    T claim that Jesus had knowledge and so did not have faith.  He does not see that it was faith that led Jesus to say “if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.”


    k

    Quote
    T claim that Jesus had knowledge and so did not have faith.  He does not see that it was faith that led Jesus to say “if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.”

    WHAT CHRIST PRAYED FOR WAS NOT IN IGNORANCE AS I CAN UNDERSTAND IT ,A REQUEST IS NOT EQUAL TO FAITH ; AND YOU DID NOT ANSWER THAT QUESTION EITHER ,

    WERE IN SCRIPTURES DOES IT SAYS THAT CHRIST WALKED BY FAITH ???

    THE FACT THAT HE IS A RIGHTEOUS DOES NOT EQUAL FAITH ONLY IF YOU ARE IGNORANT ,IF YOU BELIEVE THIS THEN YOU WOULD ALSO BELIEVE THAT ;THE ARCHITECT THAT BUILT A BUILDING IS ALSO HIS BUILDING ;

    A RIGHTEOUS IS A PERSON THAT WALKS IN THE KNOWLEDGE OF GODS WORDS AND APPLY THEM IN HIS LIFE ,AND HE DOES THAT BY THE BELIEVE THAT HE WILL BE APPROVED BY GOD ,BUT HE DOES NOT KNOW GOD ,ONLY THROUGH THE SCRIPTURES DOES HE KNOW HIM SO HE WALK IN FAITH UNTIL THE DAY THAT GOD WILL REVEL HIMSELF TO HIM THROUGH THAT PERSON RESURRECTION ,UNTIL THEN WE WALK IN FAITH


    T,

    Matthew 8:8-10
    King James Version (KJV)

    8 The centurion answered and said, Lord, I am not worthy that thou shouldest come under my roof: but speak the word only, and my servant shall be healed.
    9 For I am a man under authority, having soldiers under me: and I say to this man, Go, and he goeth; and to another, Come, and he cometh; and to my servant, Do this, and he doeth it.
    10 When Jesus heard it, he marvelled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel.

    faith and knowledge are linked as this passage reveals. It is also the same patern as Jesus' prayers.

    #351111
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (2besee @ July 19 2013,06:24)
    Kerwin,
    My Jerusalem bible – I love it.
    It has each Bible chapter with a heading title and does not have double columns but single, so it's more like a book and thick.
    It has the name Yahweh all through the Old Testament.
    It was translated word for word from the original Hebrew, Greek, and Aramaic rather than from the Latin vulgate.

    Regarding the book of wisdom, this is from wikipedia:

    Personification of Wisdom

    There are found in the Book of Wisdom and other books of the wisdom literature to Wisdom as a personification with divine attributes.

    In chapter seven, Wisdom is said to be “the fashioner of all things” (v. 22). Because she fashions all things, is “an associate in his [God’s] works” (8:4), and is a “pure emanation of the glory of the Almighty” (7:25), Wisdom is eternal and one in being (consubstantial) with the Father. Because Wisdom is God’s “creative agent”, she must be intimately identified with God himself.

    It has been claimed that the most definite indication that personified Wisdom refers to the Messiah is the alleged paraphrasing of Wis 7:26 in Heb 1:3a. Wis 7:26 says that “she is a reflection of eternal light, a spotless mirror of the working of God, and an image of his goodness.” The author of Hebrews says of Christ: “He reflects the glory of God and bears the very stamp of his nature, upholding the universe by his word of power.”

    Wisdom 9:17 “Who has learned your counsel, unless you have given wisdom and sent your holy spirit from on high?”. The next verse says that salvation is an act of Wisdom. In Christianity salvation is an activity reserved for God, but it is here given to Wisdom, thus identifying them with one another.

    Wisdom 2

    Some may see the second chapter of the Book of Wisdom (Wisdom 2) as building up to a prophecy of Christ’s passion. First the ungodly men are described (Wis 1:16-2:9), followed by their plotting against the righteous man (2:10-20). The passage describes in detail the treatment of Jesus by the Jewish authorities. The first indication for some that it is a prophecy of the Messiah is in verse 11. Where the RSV reads “weak”, the Greek has “achreston” (ἄχρηστον), which some may claim is a play on the title Christos (Χριστός). Verse 12 is a quote of the LXX version of Is 3:10; Is 3:10 was allegedly taken to refer to Jesus in the 1st-century Epistle of Barnabas.

    On the whole, this treatment of the suffering of the righteous man is heavily indebted to Isaiah; particularly the fourth Suffering Servant song (Is 52:13-53:12).  Verse 13 uses pais (παῖς), child or servant, from Is 52:13. Verse 15 says his very sight is a burden, referencing Is 53:2. In verse 16 he calls God his father, which is thought to be based on a poor understanding of pais as in Is 52:13. Verse 18 is comparable to Is 42:1. Verse 19 makes reference to Is 53:7. A final reference to the Messiah is the righteous man’s “shameful death” in verse 20. This death has been identified with Jesus’ death on a cross, a cursed death hanging on a tree.

    In the realm of Bible criticism and theology, all sorts of opinions are held by all sorts of persons, whether ordinary persons or university professors. Some opine that the Gospel of Matthew may contain allusions to the Wisdom of Solomon in the structuring of Matthew's Passion Narrative. Supposed parallels between Wisdom and Matthew include the theme of testing, and the mocking of a servant of God's claim to be protected by God. Matthew's gospel teaches that Jesus is the suffering servant of God.

    As another example of the myriad opinions and interpretations of the Bible: while some think that Wis 2:17-18, “Let us see if his words are true, and let us test what will happen at the end of his life; for if the righteous man is God’s son, he will help him, and will deliver him from the hand of his adversaries,” was an influence on Mt 27:43, “He trusts in God; let God deliver him now, if he desires him; for he said, ‘I am the Son of God.’” it is more natural to see it as a reference to Ps 22:8 “He trusted on the LORD that he would deliver him: let him deliver him, seeing he delighted in him.”


    2besee,

    I doubt it is God's Word but it is Jewish literature and gives us an idea how the Jews at the time thought and communicated.

    #351112
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (terraricca @ July 19 2013,04:42)

    Quote (kerwin @ July 18 2013,11:12)
    T,

    James 1:6-7
    King James Version (KJV)

    6 But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.
    7 For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord.

    Do you thing Jesus did not ask in faith?


    k

    YOU ARE MIXING FAITH WITH A SIMPLE REQUEST ,BUT CHRIST KNEW THE ANSWER BEFORE HE ASK ;BUT YOU MIST IT ,THINK


    T,

    He did know that he must suffer and die.

    Jesus asked if God would take the cup from him so he did not know whether God would or not.

    He did know God had the power to do so and he did know God does all that is right.

    #351116
    2besee
    Participant

    T, you said:

    Quote
    RIGHTEOUS IS A PERSON THAT WALKS IN THE KNOWLEDGE OF GODS WORDS AND APPLY THEM IN HIS LIFE ,AND HE DOES THAT BY THE BELIEVE THAT HE WILL BE APPROVED BY GOD ,BUT HE DOES NOT KNOW GOD ,ONLY THROUGH THE SCRIPTURES DOES HE KNOW HIM SO HE WALK IN FAITH UNTIL THE DAY THAT GOD WILL REVEL HIMSELF TO HIM THROUGH THAT PERSON RESURRECTION

    So, according to you, a person cannot KNOW God until AFTER he dies?
    Not so.
    According to scriptures, Jesus knew God, and Jesus' request is that people KNOW God.
    Enoch, Noah, Abraham and others WALKED WITH GOD.

    You also say that people can only know (about) God through the scriptures.
    Not so.
    Not only through scriptures – but also through having a personal relationship with God and talking to God and listening.

    Why do you doubt that we can know God now?
    God draws to him whom he chooses.
    The thing that can come in between this (for those that are drawn) is continuance in sin/disobedience/drawing away from God, etc.

    #351118
    2besee
    Participant

    T,
    I don't see what the scriptures that you posted have to do with what I posted.

    Kerwin,
    I believe that the book of wisdom is fine especially considering that the early church had it.
    I find it odd that some things seem to have been hidden.

    #351119
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (2besee @ July 19 2013,10:27)
    T,
    I don't see what the scriptures that you posted have to do with what I posted.

    Kerwin,
    I believe that the book of wisdom is fine especially considering that the early church had it.
    I find it odd that some things seem to have been hidden.


    2besee,

    Scripture states the woman is hidden in her place.

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