John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

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  • #350257
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (kerwin @ July 07 2013,23:02)
    No Scripture calls Jesus the Word except one passage in Revelations…….


    Wrong.  1 John 1:1-2 speaks of the same Word, which is also Jesus.

    So now there are THREE scriptures calling Jesus the Word – ALL OF WHICH were written by the same author. Doesn't that tell you something? It should.

    Quote (kerwin @ July 07 2013,23:02)
    You have no evidence to conclude that John was using Word any differently than Isaiah……


    Wrong.  I have MANY reasons, Kerwin.  Would you like me to list them again?

    The italicized words below are things said about “the Word” in John 1.  The scriptures listed in parenthesis identify some of the places in scripture where those same exact things are said about Jesus.

    1.  And the Word was a god:  (Is 9:6, Heb 1:8-9, etc.)

    2.  He was with God in the beginning:  (John 17:5)

    3.  All things were made through him:  (Col 1:16, 1 Cor 8:6, Heb 1:2)

    4.  In him was life, and that life was the light of men:  (John 5:26, John 8:12)

    5.  The light shines in the darkness:  (Matthew 4:16; John 3:19; 2 Corinthians 4:6)

    6.  John the Baptist came as a witness to testify concerning that light:  (John 1:29-34; 3:26; 5:32-36)

    7.  The true light that gives light to every man was coming into the world:  (Isaiah 42:6-7; John 3:19, 9:5, 12:35-36, 46; Luke 1:78-79)

    8.  Though he was in the world, the world did not recognize him:  (Isaiah 53:3, John 4:10, Acts 13:27, John 12:37-38, 1 John 3:1)

    9.  He came to that which was his own: (Col 1:16; Matt 11:27; John 3:35, 13:3, 16:15; Eph 1:10; Heb 1:2)

    10.  but his own did not receive him:  (Luke 9:53; John 5:43; Acts 13:46)

    11.  to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God:  (Acts 4:12; John 3:14-16; Gal 3:26; Heb 2:10; Eph 1:5)

    12.  The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us:  (1 John 1:1-2, 4:2; Phil 2:6-7; Rom 8:3; Gal 4:4-5)

    13.  We have seen his glory, the glory of the only begotten:  (John 1:18, 3:16-18; 1 John 4:9)

    14.  who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.:  (John 1:16, 14:6; Luke 2:40; Romans 1:5)

    15.  John testified concerning him.:  (Mark 1:7-8; John 1:32, 34; John 3:26; John 5:32-33; John 10:41)

    16.  He cried out, saying, “This is the one I spoke about when I said, ‘He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.’”:  (John 1:29-30; John 3:28,30; Micah 5:2; Acts 19:4)

    The real question is how YOU are linking an OBVIOUSLY spoken word in Isaiah to “the Word” in John 1, who was OBVIOUSLY a PERSON, and NOT a spoken word. He wore SANDALS for crying out loud!

    In Isaiah, God was saying, “If I say it's going to happen, then it's going to happen”.  Yet, in your quest to conquer the scriptures, you are trying to use the poetic wording of God's statement in Isaiah to cast a shadow on the OBVIOUS referent of “the Word” in John 1.  (It's not working.)

    So now that I've given you MY list of reasons, it's time for YOU to show SCRIPTURES that link the spoken word of God in Isaiah to the Word in John 1.

    Quote (kerwin @ July 07 2013,23:02)
    You are not comprehending the argument as it is about hierarchy. The Word inherently has a hierarchy than is superior to Jesus as the Word it is what Jesus is called by and the default the Word means the Word.


    I want you to tell me WHY Jesus would be called by the name of a DIFFERENT “demiurge”. If he is NOT the one through whom all things were created, then why on earth would he be called by that one's name? ??? 

    And I want you to explain why so MANY times in scripture, the phrase “his name is called” is used, but you only try to make some big deal out of it in this ONE scripture.

    I want you to ADDRESS these points:

    His name is called Kerwin = He is called Kerwin = He IS Kerwin.

    I want you to either tell me that the above equation is wrong………….. or ACKNOWLEDGE that it's right.

    What “secret” meaning did “no longer will your name be called Abram” have?  Did it mean that Abram wasn't REALLY Abram?  Was he someone OTHER THAN Abram who was just called by some demiurge's name or something?  PLEASE ADDRESS THIS STUFF.

    #350258
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (kerwin @ July 07 2013,23:13)
    Mike,

    The Word in the KJV of Isaiah 55:11 uses “it” and yet is a personification.


    The word “it” isn't in the Hebrew text.

    #350260
    kerwin
    Participant

    Mike,

    It is in the King James.  I have not looked at the Hebrew.

    #350268
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ July 08 2013,11:11)
    T,

    Quote
    number 1)

    wrong there are none and that is the reason why you have shown none ,

    2)this is a lie ;Lk 1:35 The angel answered, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God.

    IT CLEARLY SAYS THAT THE POWER OF THE MOST HIGH WILL OVERSHADOW YOU ;THIS IS WHO MADE THE SON COME DOWN FROM HEAVEN AND MADE MARY A SURROGATE MOTHER ;THE POWER OF THE MOST HIGH,

    It states nothing about the Divine Word but is does teach that Jesus was conceived by the power of Jehovah.  There are humans today that are continuously being conceived by the power of science.  Virgin conception may soon become common due to that same power of science.


    K

    Quote
    Virgin conception may soon become common due to that same power of science.

    An arrogant scientist was talking to God one day. He said, “God, with all the scientific advancements we've made, we can now create life, and therefore don't need you anymore.”

    God said, “Show me.”

    So the scientist grabbed up a handful of earth and started heading to his lab.

    God said, “Not so fast – go get your own dirt”.

    this above is an joke with a moral attache to it ; see no men could do nothing if they did not have learn and practice what they do,but in reality they are not working like God almighty or Christ ,you try to show me that they are equal in their works as God the creator ,you dead wrong ,

    #350270
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ July 09 2013,09:20)
    Mike,

    It is in the King James.  I have not looked at the Hebrew.


    Kerwin

    are you going to skip Mike previous quote ??? it looks like it to me

    #350280
    jammin
    Participant

    mike,

    you are wrong. the word was not a god but God.
    study more boy

    kerwin,

    you are not yet done?
    i told you to make your own version of john 1.1 so that next time you can get a verse for you imagination.

    #350281
    jammin
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ July 07 2013,10:06)

    Quote (jammin @ July 07 2013,04:45)

    Quote (kerwin @ July 07 2013,04:41)

    Quote (jammin @ July 06 2013,10:34)

    Quote (Ed J @ July 04 2013,01:25)

    Quote (jammin @ July 03 2013,16:04)
    kerwin and ed

    i cant imagine why you people dont want to believe what the bible actually says.
    do you want to spend your second life in hell?


    Hi Jammin,

    Both me and Kerwin do believe what the bible actually says.
    What we don't believe is: man's alterations to “The Word” of God.
    Man's alterations hold no Authority over anyone – EXCEPT (maybe) YOU.

    Jesus has promised all believers – they would be resurrected on “The Last day”.

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org


    altering words is your masterpiece.
    you want people to believe what is not written in the bible. you call that truth?
    i call that insanity.

    it is written that Christ is the word in john 1.1 rev 19.13
    .


    Jammin,

    It is not written.


    of course in your book it is not written. but in the bible, it is written.

    believe it or not.
    scholars also agree to that that the word in john 1.1 is christ


    Jammin,

    Some scholars believe Word = Jesus but not all.  God after all befuddles the wisdom of the Wise.  I know of no 1st Century Theologian that taught that the Word was a person.  The define Word doctrines are hold that the Word is personified in Scripture but not a person.  There are later doctrines that teach otherwise.


    you do not know john? how sad…
    we can read in john 1.1 that the Word is the son. according to john 1.14, the Word became flesh. that is not the HS but the son.
    if you continue reading john 1.14, it says we have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only son…

    consult an ophthalmologist dude. it is getting worst.

    #350336
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (jammin @ July 09 2013,17:33)

    Quote (kerwin @ July 07 2013,10:06)

    Quote (jammin @ July 07 2013,04:45)

    Quote (kerwin @ July 07 2013,04:41)

    Quote (jammin @ July 06 2013,10:34)

    Quote (Ed J @ July 04 2013,01:25)

    Quote (jammin @ July 03 2013,16:04)
    kerwin and ed

    i cant imagine why you people dont want to believe what the bible actually says.
    do you want to spend your second life in hell?


    Hi Jammin,

    Both me and Kerwin do believe what the bible actually says.
    What we don't believe is: man's alterations to “The Word” of God.
    Man's alterations hold no Authority over anyone – EXCEPT (maybe) YOU.

    Jesus has promised all believers – they would be resurrected on “The Last day”.

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org


    altering words is your masterpiece.
    you want people to believe what is not written in the bible. you call that truth?
    i call that insanity.

    it is written that Christ is the word in john 1.1 rev 19.13
    .


    Jammin,

    It is not written.


    of course in your book it is not written. but in the bible, it is written.

    believe it or not.
    scholars also agree to that that the word in john 1.1 is christ


    Jammin,

    Some scholars believe Word = Jesus but not all.  God after all befuddles the wisdom of the Wise.  I know of no 1st Century Theologian that taught that the Word was a person.  The define Word doctrines are hold that the Word is personified in Scripture but not a person.  There are later doctrines that teach otherwise.


    you do not know john? how sad…
    we can read in john 1.1 that the Word is the son. according to john 1.14, the Word became flesh. that is not the HS but the son.
    if you continue reading john 1.14, it says we have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only son…

    consult an ophthalmologist dude. it is getting worst.


    Jammin,

    It is not written.

    #350339
    kerwin
    Participant

    Mike,

    Quote
    Wrong. 1 John 1:1-2 speaks of the same Word, which is also Jesus.

    So now there are THREE scriptures calling Jesus the Word – ALL OF WHICH were written by the same author. Doesn't that tell you something? It should.

    It tells me two things.  The first is John, a Jew, utilized a Jewish Divine Word doctrine.  The second is that you choose to read into the verses a more modern teaching.

    #350343
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Okay Kerwin,

    I think it's time we hear your understanding from start to finish.

    You are now saying the Word is some demiurge other than Jesus. Do you still think this demiurge is the “Holy Spirit Son of God”? Or have you moved on to yet another understanding? (You've gone through so many of them in the last 3 years that it's hard for us to keep up with you.)

    #350371
    jammin
    Participant

    kerwin,

    it is written
    Christ Lived Before the World Was Made

    1 The Word (Christ) was in the beginning. The Word was with God. The Word was God.

    NLV

    it is not written that the HS is the word in john 1.1

    make your own bible

    #350374
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (jammin @ July 10 2013,12:54)
    kerwin,

    it is written
    Christ Lived Before the World Was Made

    1 The Word (Christ) was in the beginning. The Word was with God. The Word was God.

    NLV

    it is not written that the HS is the word in john 1.1

    make your own bible


    Jammin,

    I have not claimed the HS is the Word for a while though it is the way the Word is utilized.

    (Christ) is a comment and not what is written.

    Try to find a more literal version where it is written and not back-filled or a comment and a manuscript to match.

    #350376
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 10 2013,06:10)
    Okay Kerwin,

    I think it's time we hear your understanding from start to finish.

    You are now saying the Word is some demiurge other than Jesus.  Do you still think this demiurge is the “Holy Spirit Son of God”?  Or have you moved on to yet another understanding?  (You've gone through so many of them in the last 3 years that it's hard for us to keep up with you.)


    Mike,

    Same understanding, different way of speech.

    Philo also called the Word an archangel. An archangel is a god according to you. Despite using terms used these descriptive words while denying the Word was a person. He is teaching a Jewish Divine Word doctrine. John use a Jewish Divine Word doctrine to teach about Jesus. Like with Philo's words it can be misunderstood to mean a person by those that understand the use of a model to portray ideas.

    I am tired and hope to cover more later.

    #350377
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ July 10 2013,13:39)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 10 2013,06:10)
    Okay Kerwin,

    I think it's time we hear your understanding from start to finish.

    You are now saying the Word is some demiurge other than Jesus.  Do you still think this demiurge is the “Holy Spirit Son of God”?  Or have you moved on to yet another understanding?  (You've gone through so many of them in the last 3 years that it's hard for us to keep up with you.)


    Mike,

    Same understanding, different way of speech.

    Philo also called the Word an archangel.  An archangel is a god according to you.  Despite using terms used these descriptive words while denying the Word was a person.  He is teaching a Jewish Divine Word doctrine.  John use a Jewish Divine Word doctrine to teach about Jesus. Like with Philo's words it can be misunderstood to mean a person by those that understand the use of a model to portray ideas.

    I am tired and hope to cover more later.


    K

    So you are fallowing Philo,and accept men,s view or is it also what you can take from scriptures as from your personal understanding ,but I have to guess that you have NO personal understanding ,and that you fallow men,s opinion according what at the moment fit or agree with you ,right,

    I hope you can answer that question

    #350397
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (terraricca @ July 10 2013,13:56)

    Quote (kerwin @ July 10 2013,13:39)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 10 2013,06:10)
    Okay Kerwin,

    I think it's time we hear your understanding from start to finish.

    You are now saying the Word is some demiurge other than Jesus.  Do you still think this demiurge is the “Holy Spirit Son of God”?  Or have you moved on to yet another understanding?  (You've gone through so many of them in the last 3 years that it's hard for us to keep up with you.)


    Mike,

    Same understanding, different way of speech.

    Philo also called the Word an archangel.  An archangel is a god according to you.  Despite using terms used these descriptive words while denying the Word was a person.  He is teaching a Jewish Divine Word doctrine.  John use a Jewish Divine Word doctrine to teach about Jesus. Like with Philo's words it can be misunderstood to mean a person by those that understand the use of a model to portray ideas.

    I am tired and hope to cover more later.


    K

    So you are fallowing Philo,and accept men,s view or is it also what you can take from scriptures as from your personal understanding ,but I have to guess that you have NO personal understanding ,and that you fallow men,s opinion according what at the moment fit or agree with you ,right,

    I hope you can answer that question


    T,

    I am pointing out that the Jews had Divine Word doctrines that held the Word was an archangel, but not a person, in the same century that a Jew named John wrote the first chapter of John. You are following a doctrine that twists the Jewish Divine Word doctrines to make the Word a person and so depart from its roots. There is nothing in John's words of chapter 1 that reveals he so drastically departed from the Jewish divine Word doctrines.

    #350399
    2besee
    Participant

    All,
    The word was God's speech, simple as that.

    Look what St. Irenaeus said regarding John 1:1, and this was written in the second century. He understood the word to be God's speech.
    Read it all, and pay particular attention to the bolded part.

    (quote) “The world was not formed by angels, or by any other being, contrary to the will of the most high God, but was made by the Father through the Word.

    1. Those, moreover, who say that the world was formed by angels, or by any other maker of it, contrary to the will of Him who is the Supreme Father, err first of all in this very point, that they maintain that angels formed such and so mighty a creation, contrary to the will of the Most High God. This would imply that angels were more powerful than God; or if not so, that He was either careless, or inferior, or paid no regard to those things which took place among His own possessions, whether they turned out ill or well, so that He might drive away and prevent the one, while He praised and rejoiced over the other. But if one would not ascribe such conduct even to a man of any ability, how much less to God

    2. Next let them tell us whether these things have been formed within the limits which are contained by Him, and in His proper territory, or in regions belonging to others, and lying beyond Him? But if they say [that these things were done] beyond Him, then all the absurdities already mentioned will face them, and the Supreme God will be enclosed by that which is beyond Him, in which also it will be necessary that He should find His end. If, on the other hand, [these things were done] within His own proper territory, it will be very idle to say that the world was thus formed within His proper territory against His will by angels who are themselves under His power, or by any other being, as if either He Himself did not behold all things which take place among His own possessions, or was not aware of the things to be done by angels.

    3. If, however, [the things referred to were done] not against His will, but with His concurrence and knowledge, as some [of these men] think, the angels, or the Former of the world [whoever that may have been], will no longer be the causes of that formation, but the will of God. For if He is the Former of the world, He too made the angels, or at least was the cause of their creation; and He will be regarded as having made the world who prepared the causes of its formation. Although they maintain that the angels were made by a long succession downwards, or that the Former of the world [sprang] from the Supreme Father, as Basilides asserts; nevertheless that which is the cause of those things which have been made will still be traced to Him who was the Author of such a succession. [The case stands] just as regards success in war, which is ascribed to the king who prepared those things which are the cause of victory; and, in like manner, the creation of any state, or of any work, is referred to him who prepared materials for the accomplishment of those results which were afterwards brought about. Wherefore, we do not say that it was the axe which cut the wood, or the saw which divided it; but one would very properly say that the man cut and divided it who formed the axe and the saw for this purpose, and [who also formed] at a much earlier date all the tools by which the axe and the saw themselves were formed. With justice, therefore, according to an analogous process of reasoning, the Father of all will be declared the Former of this world, and not the angels, nor any other [so-called] former of the world, other than He who was its Author, and had formerly been the cause of the preparation for a creation of this kind.

    4. This manner of speech may perhaps be plausible or persuasive to those who know not God, and who liken Him to needy human beings, and to those who cannot immediately and without assistance form anything, but require many instrumentalities to produce what they intend. But it will not be regarded as at all probable by those who know that God stands in need of nothing, and that He created and made all things by His Word, while He neither required angels to assist Him in the production of those things which are made, nor of any power greatly inferior to Himself, and ignorant of the Father, nor of any defect or ignorance, in order that he who should know Him might become man. But He Himself in Himself, after a fashion which we can neither describe nor conceive, predestinating all things, formed them as He pleased, bestowing harmony on all things, and assigning them their own place, and the beginning of their creation. In this way He conferred on spiritual things a spiritual and invisible nature, on super-celestial things a celestial, on angels an angelical, on animals an animal, on beings that swim a nature suited to the water, and on those that live on the land one fitted for the land— on all, in short, a nature suitable to the character of the life assigned them— while He formed all things that were made by His Word that never wearies.

    5. For this is a peculiarity of the pre-eminence of God, not to stand in need of other instruments for the creation of those things which are summoned into existence. His own Word is both suitable and sufficient for the formation of all things, even as John, the disciple of the Lord, declares regarding Him: “All things were made by Him, and without Him was nothing made.” John 1:3 Now, among the “all things” our world must be embraced. It too, therefore, was made by His Word, as Scripture tells us in the book of Genesis that He made all things connected with our world by His Word. David also expresses the same truth [when he says] “For He spoke, and they were made; He commanded, and they were created.” Whom, therefore, shall we believe as to the creation of the world— these heretics who have been mentioned that prate so foolishly and inconsistently on the subject, or the disciples of the Lord, and Moses, who was both a faithful servant of God and a prophet? He at first narrated the formation of the world in these words: “In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth,” Genesis 1:1 and all other things in succession; but neither gods nor angels [had any share in the work].

    Now, that this God is the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, Paul the apostle also has declared, [saying,] “There is one God, the Father, who is above all, and through all things, and in us all.” I have indeed proved already that there is only one God; but I shall further demonstrate this from the apostles themselves, and from the discourses of the Lord. For what sort of conduct would it be, were we to forsake the utterances of the prophets, of the Lord, and of the apostles, that we might give heed to these persons, who speak not a word of sense?” (Unquote)

    “These heretics who have been mentioned that prate so foolishly and inconsistently on the subject”
    “Who speak not a word out sense”

    The word in John 1:1 was God's spoken word.

    #350402
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (2besee @ July 11 2013,03:37)
    All,
    The word was God's speech, simple as that.

    Look what St. Irenaeus said regarding John 1:1, and this was written in the second century. He understood the word to be God's speech.
    Read it all, and pay particular attention to the bolded part.

    (quote) “The world was not formed by angels, or by any other being, contrary to the will of the most high God, but was made by the Father through the Word.

    1. Those, moreover, who say that the world was formed by angels, or by any other maker of it, contrary to the will of Him who is the Supreme Father, err first of all in this very point, that they maintain that angels formed such and so mighty a creation, contrary to the will of the Most High God. This would imply that angels were more powerful than God; or if not so, that He was either careless, or inferior, or paid no regard to those things which took place among His own possessions, whether they turned out ill or well, so that He might drive away and prevent the one, while He praised and rejoiced over the other. But if one would not ascribe such conduct even to a man of any ability, how much less to God

    2. Next let them tell us whether these things have been formed within the limits which are contained by Him, and in His proper territory, or in regions belonging to others, and lying beyond Him? But if they say [that these things were done] beyond Him, then all the absurdities already mentioned will face them, and the Supreme God will be enclosed by that which is beyond Him, in which also it will be necessary that He should find His end. If, on the other hand, [these things were done] within His own proper territory, it will be very idle to say that the world was thus formed within His proper territory against His will by angels who are themselves under His power, or by any other being, as if either He Himself did not behold all things which take place among His own possessions, or was not aware of the things to be done by angels.

    3. If, however, [the things referred to were done] not against His will, but with His concurrence and knowledge, as some [of these men] think, the angels, or the Former of the world [whoever that may have been], will no longer be the causes of that formation, but the will of God. For if He is the Former of the world, He too made the angels, or at least was the cause of their creation; and He will be regarded as having made the world who prepared the causes of its formation. Although they maintain that the angels were made by a long succession downwards, or that the Former of the world [sprang] from the Supreme Father, as Basilides asserts; nevertheless that which is the cause of those things which have been made will still be traced to Him who was the Author of such a succession. [The case stands] just as regards success in war, which is ascribed to the king who prepared those things which are the cause of victory; and, in like manner, the creation of any state, or of any work, is referred to him who prepared materials for the accomplishment of those results which were afterwards brought about. Wherefore, we do not say that it was the axe which cut the wood, or the saw which divided it; but one would very properly say that the man cut and divided it who formed the axe and the saw for this purpose, and [who also formed] at a much earlier date all the tools by which the axe and the saw themselves were formed. With justice, therefore, according to an analogous process of reasoning, the Father of all will be declared the Former of this world, and not the angels, nor any other [so-called] former of the world, other than He who was its Author, and had formerly been the cause of the preparation for a creation of this kind.

    4. This manner of speech may perhaps be plausible or persuasive to those who know not God, and who liken Him to needy human beings, and to those who cannot immediately and without assistance form anything, but require many instrumentalities to produce what they intend. But it will not be regarded as at all probable by those who know that God stands in need of nothing, and that He created and made all things by His Word, while He neither required angels to assist Him in the production of those things which are made, nor of any power greatly inferior to Himself, and ignorant of the Father, nor of any defect or ignorance, in order that he who should know Him might become man. But He Himself in Himself, after a fashion which we can neither describe nor conceive, predestinating all things, formed them as He pleased, bestowing harmony on all things, and assigning them their own place, and the beginning of their creation. In this way He conferred on spiritual things a spiritual and invisible nature, on super-celestial things a celestial, on angels an angelical, on animals an animal, on beings that swim a nature suited to the water, and on those that live on the land one fitted for the land— on all, in short, a nature suitable to the character of the life assigned them— while He formed all things that were made by His Word that never wearies.

    5. For this is a peculiarity of the pre-eminence of God, not to stand in need of other instruments for the creation of those things which are summoned into existence. His own Word is both suitable and sufficient for the formation of all things, even as John, the disciple of the Lord, declares regarding Him: “All things were made by Him, and without Him was nothing made.” John 1:3 Now, among the “all things” our world must be embraced. It too, therefore, was made by His Word, as Scripture tells us in the book of Genesis that He made all things connected with our world by His Word. David also expresses the same truth [when he says] “For He spoke, and they were made; He commanded, and they were created.” Whom, therefore, shall we believe as to the creation of the world— these heretics who have been mentioned that prate so foolishly and inconsistently on the subject, or the disciples of the Lord, and Moses, who was both a faithful servant of God and a prophet? He at first narrated the formation of the world in these words: “In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth,” Genesis 1:1 and all other things in succession; but neither gods nor angels [had any share in the work].

    Now, that this God is the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, Paul the apostle also has declared, [saying,] “There is one God, the Father, who is above all, and through all things, and in us all.” I have indeed proved already that there is only one God; but I shall further demonstrate this from the apostles themselves, and from the discourses of the Lord. For what sort of conduct would it be, were we to forsake the utterances of the prophets, of the Lord, and of the apostles, that we might give heed to these persons, who speak not a word of sense?” (Unquote)

    “These heretics who have been mentioned that prate so foolishly and inconsistently on the subject”
    “Who speak not a word out sense”

    The word in John 1:1 was God's spoken word.


    2bee

    this is but a configuration of opinions on some or part of scriptures that could support the trinity ,and the striated gods are pagan ,

    and sorry for you but ;the WORD of God can not be God ;

    or answer this question ; the one that is ,is different than the one that he is with ;yes or no -THIS IS YOUR TRUTH

    John 1-1

    #350403
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ July 11 2013,02:53)

    Quote (terraricca @ July 10 2013,13:56)

    Quote (kerwin @ July 10 2013,13:39)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 10 2013,06:10)
    Okay Kerwin,

    I think it's time we hear your understanding from start to finish.

    You are now saying the Word is some demiurge other than Jesus.  Do you still think this demiurge is the “Holy Spirit Son of God”?  Or have you moved on to yet another understanding?  (You've gone through so many of them in the last 3 years that it's hard for us to keep up with you.)


    Mike,

    Same understanding, different way of speech.

    Philo also called the Word an archangel.  An archangel is a god according to you.  Despite using terms used these descriptive words while denying the Word was a person.  He is teaching a Jewish Divine Word doctrine.  John use a Jewish Divine Word doctrine to teach about Jesus. Like with Philo's words it can be misunderstood to mean a person by those that understand the use of a model to portray ideas.

    I am tired and hope to cover more later.


    K

    So you are fallowing Philo,and accept men,s view or is it also what you can take from scriptures as from your personal understanding ,but I have to guess that you have NO personal understanding ,and that you fallow men,s opinion according what at the moment fit or agree with you ,right,

    I hope you can answer that question


    T,

    I am pointing out that the Jews had Divine Word doctrines that held the Word was an archangel, but not a person, in the same century that a Jew named John wrote the first chapter of John. You are following a doctrine that twists the Jewish Divine Word doctrines to make the Word a person and so depart from its roots.  There is nothing in John's words of chapter 1 that reveals he so drastically departed from the Jewish divine Word doctrines.


    kERWIN

    Quote
    There is nothing in John's words of chapter 1 that reveals he so drastically departed from the Jewish divine Word doctrines.

    this is not John doing it is Christ doing ;why do you think they have failed to recognized the Christ ???

    when that happen you are going on a roller-coaster driving away from the truth of God ,

    does God pay attention to men's culture ??? if yes this would be new to me

    #350405
    2besee
    Participant

    Teraricca,
    That is not trinitarian, far from it.
    It is the only writing from the early century SPECIFICALLY about John 1. And it says EXACTLY what I have been saying all along.
    All that you have is Origen, who's writings were tampered with to fit later theology (wikipedia) – and he was much later than Irenaeus.

    The word is God's speech. God's word. Simple.
    You can prat all you like! Lol.

    #350407
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (kerwin @ July 10 2013,01:39)
    I am tired and hope to cover more later.


    Okay. I am anxious to see how this understanding follows through with the scriptures themselves.

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