John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 13,181 through 13,200 (of 26,009 total)
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  • #349993
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (terraricca @ July 06 2013,11:09)

    Quote (kerwin @ July 06 2013,00:01)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 05 2013,07:32)
    Then why don't you just cut to the chase and admit the “demiurge” IS Jesus?  

    You are going WAY out of your way to invent a DIFFERENT supernatural being, through whom all things were created, and who is called “the Word”………… when you have the perfect specimen, Jesus, staring you right in the face.

    He IS called “the Word”, right?  And scripture DOES say all things were created through him, right?  So now all you have to do is BELIEVE JESUS when he says, “I came down from heaven to do the will of Him who sent me”.

    Are you able to do that, Kerwin?  Or will you stick with a different demiurge who you sometimes like to call “the Holy Spirit Son of God”?


    Mike,

    The demiurge of Philo is a being in the sense it exist not in the sense of being a living creature.  He concept is the logos is Jehovah's creative principle and is either believed to have influenced John's writings or come from a common source.  

    Quote
    Philo considers these divine powers in their totality also, treating them as a single independent being, which he designates “Logos.” This name, which he borrowed from Greek philosophy, was first used by Heraclitus and then adopted by the Stoics. Philo's conception of the Logos is influenced by both of these schools. From Heraclitus he borrowed the conception of the “dividing Logos” (λόγος τομεύς), which calls the various objects into existence by the combination of contrasts (“Quis Rerum Divinarum Heres Sit,” § 43 [i. 503]), and from Stoicism, the characterization of the Logos as the active and vivifying power. But Philo borrowed also Platonic elements in designating the Logos as the “idea of ideas” and the “archetypal idea” (“De Migratione Abrahami,” § 18 [i. 452]; “De Specialibus Legibus,” § 36 [ii. 333]). There are, in addition, Biblical elements: there are Biblical passages in which the word of Yhwh is regarded as a power acting independently and existing by itself, as Isa. lv. 11 (comp. Matt. x. 13; Prov. xxx. 4); these ideas were further developed by later Judaism in the doctrines of the Divine Word creating the world, the divine throne-chariot and its cherub, the divine splendor and its shekinah, and the name of God as well as the names of the angels; and Philo borrowed from all these in elaborating his doctrine of the Logos. He calls the Logos the “archangel of many names,” “taxiarch” (corps-commander), the “name of God,” also the “heavenly Adam” (comp. “De Confusione Linguarum,” § 11 [i. 411]), the “man, the word of the eternal God.” The Logos is also designated as “high priest,” in reference to the exalted position which the high priest occupied after the Exile as the real center of the Jewish state. The Logos, like the high priest, is the expiator of sins, and the mediator and advocate for men: ἱκέτης (“Quis Rerum Divinarum Heres Sit,” § 42 [i. 501], and παράκλητος (“De Vita Mosis,” iii. 14 [ii. 155]). From Alexandrian theology Philo borrowed the idea of wisdom as the mediator; he thereby somewhat confused his doctrine of the Logos, regarding wisdom as the higher principle from which the Logos proceeds, and again coordinating it with the latter.

    Philos'  logos

    I didn't invent it,  I am merely reporting on it.


    K

    You are reporting opinions about the opinions of other people ,what is my concern is do you believe the. Bible to be the word of God ,or do you just think the book could have some interest for you ???

    Which is it ???


    T,

    The conversation at the moment is about how the word logus was used in the first century be certain Jews, some who became Christians as Christianity is the true sect of Judaism. It is not about belief in Scripture as it is is first required to comprehend before you can believe.

    #349994
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (jammin @ July 06 2013,10:34)

    Quote (Ed J @ July 04 2013,01:25)

    Quote (jammin @ July 03 2013,16:04)
    kerwin and ed

    i cant imagine why you people dont want to believe what the bible actually says.
    do you want to spend your second life in hell?


    Hi Jammin,

    Both me and Kerwin do believe what the bible actually says.
    What we don't believe is: man's alterations to “The Word” of God.
    Man's alterations hold no Authority over anyone – EXCEPT (maybe) YOU.

    Jesus has promised all believers – they would be resurrected on “The Last day”.

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org


    altering words is your masterpiece.
    you want people to believe what is not written in the bible. you call that truth?
    i call that insanity.

    it is written that Christ is the word in john 1.1 rev 19.13
    .


    Jammin,

    It is not written.

    #349995
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ July 06 2013,00:01)
    Mike,

    The demiurge of Philo is a being in the sense it exist not in the sense of being a living creature.  He concept is the logos is Jehovah's creative principle and is either believed to have influenced John's writings or come from a common source.  

    Quote
    Philo considers these divine powers in their totality also, treating them as a single independent being, which he designates “Logos.” This name, which he borrowed from Greek philosophy, was first used by Heraclitus and then adopted by the Stoics. Philo's conception of the Logos is influenced by both of these schools. From Heraclitus he borrowed the conception of the “dividing Logos” (λόγος τομεύς), which calls the various objects into existence by the combination of contrasts (“Quis Rerum Divinarum Heres Sit,” § 43 [i. 503]), and from Stoicism, the characterization of the Logos as the active and vivifying power. But Philo borrowed also Platonic elements in designating the Logos as the “idea of ideas” and the “archetypal idea” (“De Migratione Abrahami,” § 18 [i. 452]; “De Specialibus Legibus,” § 36 [ii. 333]). There are, in addition, Biblical elements: there are Biblical passages in which the word of Yhwh is regarded as a power acting independently and existing by itself, as Isa. lv. 11 (comp. Matt. x. 13; Prov. xxx. 4); these ideas were further developed by later Judaism in the doctrines of the Divine Word creating the world, the divine throne-chariot and its cherub, the divine splendor and its shekinah, and the name of God as well as the names of the angels; and Philo borrowed from all these in elaborating his doctrine of the Logos. He calls the Logos the “archangel of many names,” “taxiarch” (corps-commander), the “name of God,” also the “heavenly Adam” (comp. “De Confusione Linguarum,” § 11 [i. 411]), the “man, the word of the eternal God.” The Logos is also designated as “high priest,” in reference to the exalted position which the high priest occupied after the Exile as the real center of the Jewish state. The Logos, like the high priest, is the expiator of sins, and the mediator and advocate for men: ἱκέτης (“Quis Rerum Divinarum Heres Sit,” § 42 [i. 501], and παράκλητος (“De Vita Mosis,” iii. 14 [ii. 155]). From Alexandrian theology Philo borrowed the idea of wisdom as the mediator; he thereby somewhat confused his doctrine of the Logos, regarding wisdom as the higher principle from which the Logos proceeds, and again coordinating it with the latter.

    Philos'  logos

    I didn't invent it,  I am merely reporting on it.


    Mike,

    Quote
    In certain biblical passages, the divine word is personified, e.g., “So shall My word be that goeth forth out of My mouth: it shall not return unto Me void, except it accomplish that which I please, and make the thing whereto I sent it prosper” (Isa. 55:11; cf. also Ps. 33:6; 147:15).

    The word here is “personified” and “it” would be replaced with the Koine “he” in Koine Greek as logos is masculine.  John uses that same “he” that some versions translate “it”

    John writes that the Word was with God and it was as it went out of his mouth.  John writes that the Word is God and Philo called it the archangel.  Scripture testifies and Philo agrees that all things were made by Jehovah's Word.  Scripture also testifies that there is life in the Word and life it the light of men.  John the Baptist(JB) testified he is not the Light(Christ).  Jesus testifies he is the Light, much as John testifies Jehovah is Love.  JB came to testify of the coming of Christ(Light).  That Light that is to Jesus as Love is to God lights every man that comes into the world.  

    I can go on but that is enough for now.

    Divine Word

    #349996
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    You'll need to go on, because as of yet, you haven't said one single thing that even hints that Jesus isn't the Word who became flesh – while everything John wrote in the first chapter of his gospel points ONLY to this one, very evident truth.

    You list Isaiah 55:11, and assume this MUST BE the same exact “Word” that is mentioned in John 1.

    But I could list Rev 19:13, and insist that THIS is the Word who was mentioned in John 1.

    One of those two scriptures was written by the same exact author who wrote John 1………. so which one has more chance of speaking of the same “Word”?

    #349997
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 07 2013,00:25)
    You'll need to go on, because as of yet, you haven't said one single thing that even hints that Jesus isn't the Word who became flesh – while everything John wrote in the first chapter of his gospel points ONLY to this one, very evident truth.

    You list Isaiah 55:11, and assume this MUST BE the same exact “Word” that is mentioned in John 1.

    But I could list Rev 19:13, and insist that THIS is the Word who was mentioned in John 1.

    One of those two scriptures was written by the same exact author who wrote John 1………. so which one has more chance of speaking of the same “Word”?


    Mike,

    Revelation 19:13 is a time after the Word was made flesh and only goes to show the Word was made flesh. It also goes to show that Jesus is called by the name of the Word mentioned in Isaiah 55:11. The Word is not only called by that name it is is the Word.

    #350002
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ July 06 2013,23:31)

    Quote (terraricca @ July 06 2013,11:09)

    Quote (kerwin @ July 06 2013,00:01)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 05 2013,07:32)
    Then why don't you just cut to the chase and admit the “demiurge” IS Jesus?  

    You are going WAY out of your way to invent a DIFFERENT supernatural being, through whom all things were created, and who is called “the Word”………… when you have the perfect specimen, Jesus, staring you right in the face.

    He IS called “the Word”, right?  And scripture DOES say all things were created through him, right?  So now all you have to do is BELIEVE JESUS when he says, “I came down from heaven to do the will of Him who sent me”.

    Are you able to do that, Kerwin?  Or will you stick with a different demiurge who you sometimes like to call “the Holy Spirit Son of God”?


    Mike,

    The demiurge of Philo is a being in the sense it exist not in the sense of being a living creature.  He concept is the logos is Jehovah's creative principle and is either believed to have influenced John's writings or come from a common source.  

    Quote
    Philo considers these divine powers in their totality also, treating them as a single independent being, which he designates “Logos.” This name, which he borrowed from Greek philosophy, was first used by Heraclitus and then adopted by the Stoics. Philo's conception of the Logos is influenced by both of these schools. From Heraclitus he borrowed the conception of the “dividing Logos” (λόγος τομεύς), which calls the various objects into existence by the combination of contrasts (“Quis Rerum Divinarum Heres Sit,” § 43 [i. 503]), and from Stoicism, the characterization of the Logos as the active and vivifying power. But Philo borrowed also Platonic elements in designating the Logos as the “idea of ideas” and the “archetypal idea” (“De Migratione Abrahami,” § 18 [i. 452]; “De Specialibus Legibus,” § 36 [ii. 333]). There are, in addition, Biblical elements: there are Biblical passages in which the word of Yhwh is regarded as a power acting independently and existing by itself, as Isa. lv. 11 (comp. Matt. x. 13; Prov. xxx. 4); these ideas were further developed by later Judaism in the doctrines of the Divine Word creating the world, the divine throne-chariot and its cherub, the divine splendor and its shekinah, and the name of God as well as the names of the angels; and Philo borrowed from all these in elaborating his doctrine of the Logos. He calls the Logos the “archangel of many names,” “taxiarch” (corps-commander), the “name of God,” also the “heavenly Adam” (comp. “De Confusione Linguarum,” § 11 [i. 411]), the “man, the word of the eternal God.” The Logos is also designated as “high priest,” in reference to the exalted position which the high priest occupied after the Exile as the real center of the Jewish state. The Logos, like the high priest, is the expiator of sins, and the mediator and advocate for men: ἱκέτης (“Quis Rerum Divinarum Heres Sit,” § 42 [i. 501], and παράκλητος (“De Vita Mosis,” iii. 14 [ii. 155]). From Alexandrian theology Philo borrowed the idea of wisdom as the mediator; he thereby somewhat confused his doctrine of the Logos, regarding wisdom as the higher principle from which the Logos proceeds, and again coordinating it with the latter.

    Philos'  logos

    I didn't invent it,  I am merely reporting on it.


    K

    You are reporting opinions about the opinions of other people ,what is my concern is do you believe the. Bible to be the word of God ,or do you just think the book could have some interest for you ???

    Which is it ???


    T,

    The conversation at the moment is about how the word logus was used in the first century be certain Jews, some who became Christians as Christianity is the true sect of Judaism.   It is not about belief in Scripture as it is is first required to comprehend before you can believe.


    kerwin

    but that also is a opinion ,because the first Christians are those that have written what we call today the scriptures ,and if you do not trust them because YOUR PERSONAL VIEW ,you will never be done in looking for opinions MEN'S BOOKS LIBRARY ARE FULL OF THEM BUT WHAT CHRIST AS SAID IS THIS ;Jn 17:20 “My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message,

    NOW THE SCRIPTURES HIS THE MESSAGE ,SO ALL OTHER ARE BARE OPINIONS .

    SO WE SAY THE WORD (JOHN;1;1)IS CHRIST THE ONLY SON OF GOD ;THIS AS BEEN LAYOUT TO YOU BUT YOU CANNOT AND WILL NOT ACCEPT THAT TEACHING FROM SCRIPTURES ,BUT YOU CANNOT FIND A RELEASE OF THE IDEA THAT WE MAY BE RIGHT ,AND SO FIND SOME ODD WAY TO CLAIR YOUR SOUL ,

    MANY HERE HAVE TO FACE THAT TRUTH

    #350005
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (terraricca @ July 07 2013,03:37)

    Quote (kerwin @ July 06 2013,23:31)

    Quote (terraricca @ July 06 2013,11:09)

    Quote (kerwin @ July 06 2013,00:01)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 05 2013,07:32)
    Then why don't you just cut to the chase and admit the “demiurge” IS Jesus?  

    You are going WAY out of your way to invent a DIFFERENT supernatural being, through whom all things were created, and who is called “the Word”………… when you have the perfect specimen, Jesus, staring you right in the face.

    He IS called “the Word”, right?  And scripture DOES say all things were created through him, right?  So now all you have to do is BELIEVE JESUS when he says, “I came down from heaven to do the will of Him who sent me”.

    Are you able to do that, Kerwin?  Or will you stick with a different demiurge who you sometimes like to call “the Holy Spirit Son of God”?


    Mike,

    The demiurge of Philo is a being in the sense it exist not in the sense of being a living creature.  He concept is the logos is Jehovah's creative principle and is either believed to have influenced John's writings or come from a common source.  

    Quote
    Philo considers these divine powers in their totality also, treating them as a single independent being, which he designates “Logos.” This name, which he borrowed from Greek philosophy, was first used by Heraclitus and then adopted by the Stoics. Philo's conception of the Logos is influenced by both of these schools. From Heraclitus he borrowed the conception of the “dividing Logos” (λόγος τομεύς), which calls the various objects into existence by the combination of contrasts (“Quis Rerum Divinarum Heres Sit,” § 43 [i. 503]), and from Stoicism, the characterization of the Logos as the active and vivifying power. But Philo borrowed also Platonic elements in designating the Logos as the “idea of ideas” and the “archetypal idea” (“De Migratione Abrahami,” § 18 [i. 452]; “De Specialibus Legibus,” § 36 [ii. 333]). There are, in addition, Biblical elements: there are Biblical passages in which the word of Yhwh is regarded as a power acting independently and existing by itself, as Isa. lv. 11 (comp. Matt. x. 13; Prov. xxx. 4); these ideas were further developed by later Judaism in the doctrines of the Divine Word creating the world, the divine throne-chariot and its cherub, the divine splendor and its shekinah, and the name of God as well as the names of the angels; and Philo borrowed from all these in elaborating his doctrine of the Logos. He calls the Logos the “archangel of many names,” “taxiarch” (corps-commander), the “name of God,” also the “heavenly Adam” (comp. “De Confusione Linguarum,” § 11 [i. 411]), the “man, the word of the eternal God.” The Logos is also designated as “high priest,” in reference to the exalted position which the high priest occupied after the Exile as the real center of the Jewish state. The Logos, like the high priest, is the expiator of sins, and the mediator and advocate for men: ἱκέτης (“Quis Rerum Divinarum Heres Sit,” § 42 [i. 501], and παράκλητος (“De Vita Mosis,” iii. 14 [ii. 155]). From Alexandrian theology Philo borrowed the idea of wisdom as the mediator; he thereby somewhat confused his doctrine of the Logos, regarding wisdom as the higher principle from which the Logos proceeds, and again coordinating it with the latter.

    Philos'  logos

    I didn't invent it,  I am merely reporting on it.


    K

    You are reporting opinions about the opinions of other people ,what is my concern is do you believe the. Bible to be the word of God ,or do you just think the book could have some interest for you ???

    Which is it ???


    T,

    The conversation at the moment is about how the word logus was used in the first century be certain Jews, some who became Christians as Christianity is the true sect of Judaism.   It is not about belief in Scripture as it is is first required to comprehend before you can believe.


    kerwin

    but that also is a opinion ,because the first Christians are those that have written what we call today the scriptures ,and if you do not trust them because YOUR PERSONAL VIEW ,you will never be done in looking for opinions MEN'S BOOKS LIBRARY ARE FULL OF THEM  BUT WHAT CHRIST AS SAID IS THIS ;Jn 17:20 “My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message,

    NOW THE SCRIPTURES HIS THE MESSAGE ,SO ALL OTHER ARE BARE OPINIONS .

    SO WE SAY THE WORD (JOHN;1;1)IS CHRIST THE ONLY SON OF GOD ;THIS AS BEEN LAYOUT TO YOU BUT YOU CANNOT AND WILL NOT ACCEPT THAT TEACHING FROM SCRIPTURES ,BUT YOU CANNOT FIND A RELEASE OF THE IDEA THAT WE MAY BE RIGHT ,AND SO FIND SOME ODD WAY TO CLAIR YOUR SOUL ,

    MANY HERE HAVE TO FACE THAT TRUTH


    T,

    The hypothesis is that Christianity, being the true Judaism, holds in common ideas of the 1st Century Judaism. One of those is that 1st Century Judio-christianity has a doctrine of the divine Word, a doctrine that does not start a new religion but is a continuation of the old true religion.

    Philo of Alexander teaches a a divine word doctrine that like other Jewish divine word doctrines does not hold that the Word is a person, even though he calls it the first born son of Jehovah and archangel.

    At the point you make the Word a separate divine person you abandon the teachings of Mosses and the Prophets.

    #350010
    jammin
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ July 07 2013,04:41)

    Quote (jammin @ July 06 2013,10:34)

    Quote (Ed J @ July 04 2013,01:25)

    Quote (jammin @ July 03 2013,16:04)
    kerwin and ed

    i cant imagine why you people dont want to believe what the bible actually says.
    do you want to spend your second life in hell?


    Hi Jammin,

    Both me and Kerwin do believe what the bible actually says.
    What we don't believe is: man's alterations to “The Word” of God.
    Man's alterations hold no Authority over anyone – EXCEPT (maybe) YOU.

    Jesus has promised all believers – they would be resurrected on “The Last day”.

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org


    altering words is your masterpiece.
    you want people to believe what is not written in the bible. you call that truth?
    i call that insanity.

    it is written that Christ is the word in john 1.1 rev 19.13
    .


    Jammin,

    It is not written.


    of course in your book it is not written. but in the bible, it is written.

    believe it or not.
    scholars also agree to that that the word in john 1.1 is christ

    #350012
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (jammin @ July 07 2013,04:45)

    Quote (kerwin @ July 07 2013,04:41)

    Quote (jammin @ July 06 2013,10:34)

    Quote (Ed J @ July 04 2013,01:25)

    Quote (jammin @ July 03 2013,16:04)
    kerwin and ed

    i cant imagine why you people dont want to believe what the bible actually says.
    do you want to spend your second life in hell?


    Hi Jammin,

    Both me and Kerwin do believe what the bible actually says.
    What we don't believe is: man's alterations to “The Word” of God.
    Man's alterations hold no Authority over anyone – EXCEPT (maybe) YOU.

    Jesus has promised all believers – they would be resurrected on “The Last day”.

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org


    altering words is your masterpiece.
    you want people to believe what is not written in the bible. you call that truth?
    i call that insanity.

    it is written that Christ is the word in john 1.1 rev 19.13
    .


    Jammin,

    It is not written.


    of course in your book it is not written. but in the bible, it is written.

    believe it or not.
    scholars also agree to that that the word in john 1.1 is christ


    Jammin,

    Some scholars believe Word = Jesus but not all. God after all befuddles the wisdom of the Wise. I know of no 1st Century Theologian that taught that the Word was a person. The define Word doctrines are hold that the Word is personified in Scripture but not a person. There are later doctrines that teach otherwise.

    #350016
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ July 07 2013,04:01)

    Quote (terraricca @ July 07 2013,03:37)

    Quote (kerwin @ July 06 2013,23:31)

    Quote (terraricca @ July 06 2013,11:09)

    Quote (kerwin @ July 06 2013,00:01)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 05 2013,07:32)
    Then why don't you just cut to the chase and admit the “demiurge” IS Jesus?  

    You are going WAY out of your way to invent a DIFFERENT supernatural being, through whom all things were created, and who is called “the Word”………… when you have the perfect specimen, Jesus, staring you right in the face.

    He IS called “the Word”, right?  And scripture DOES say all things were created through him, right?  So now all you have to do is BELIEVE JESUS when he says, “I came down from heaven to do the will of Him who sent me”.

    Are you able to do that, Kerwin?  Or will you stick with a different demiurge who you sometimes like to call “the Holy Spirit Son of God”?


    Mike,

    The demiurge of Philo is a being in the sense it exist not in the sense of being a living creature.  He concept is the logos is Jehovah's creative principle and is either believed to have influenced John's writings or come from a common source.  

    Quote
    Philo considers these divine powers in their totality also, treating them as a single independent being, which he designates “Logos.” This name, which he borrowed from Greek philosophy, was first used by Heraclitus and then adopted by the Stoics. Philo's conception of the Logos is influenced by both of these schools. From Heraclitus he borrowed the conception of the “dividing Logos” (λόγος τομεύς), which calls the various objects into existence by the combination of contrasts (“Quis Rerum Divinarum Heres Sit,” § 43 [i. 503]), and from Stoicism, the characterization of the Logos as the active and vivifying power. But Philo borrowed also Platonic elements in designating the Logos as the “idea of ideas” and the “archetypal idea” (“De Migratione Abrahami,” § 18 [i. 452]; “De Specialibus Legibus,” § 36 [ii. 333]). There are, in addition, Biblical elements: there are Biblical passages in which the word of Yhwh is regarded as a power acting independently and existing by itself, as Isa. lv. 11 (comp. Matt. x. 13; Prov. xxx. 4); these ideas were further developed by later Judaism in the doctrines of the Divine Word creating the world, the divine throne-chariot and its cherub, the divine splendor and its shekinah, and the name of God as well as the names of the angels; and Philo borrowed from all these in elaborating his doctrine of the Logos. He calls the Logos the “archangel of many names,” “taxiarch” (corps-commander), the “name of God,” also the “heavenly Adam” (comp. “De Confusione Linguarum,” § 11 [i. 411]), the “man, the word of the eternal God.” The Logos is also designated as “high priest,” in reference to the exalted position which the high priest occupied after the Exile as the real center of the Jewish state. The Logos, like the high priest, is the expiator of sins, and the mediator and advocate for men: ἱκέτης (“Quis Rerum Divinarum Heres Sit,” § 42 [i. 501], and παράκλητος (“De Vita Mosis,” iii. 14 [ii. 155]). From Alexandrian theology Philo borrowed the idea of wisdom as the mediator; he thereby somewhat confused his doctrine of the Logos, regarding wisdom as the higher principle from which the Logos proceeds, and again coordinating it with the latter.

    Philos'  logos

    I didn't invent it,  I am merely reporting on it.


    K

    You are reporting opinions about the opinions of other people ,what is my concern is do you believe the. Bible to be the word of God ,or do you just think the book could have some interest for you ???

    Which is it ???


    T,

    The conversation at the moment is about how the word logus was used in the first century be certain Jews, some who became Christians as Christianity is the true sect of Judaism.   It is not about belief in Scripture as it is is first required to comprehend before you can believe.


    kerwin

    but that also is a opinion ,because the first Christians are those that have written what we call today the scriptures ,and if you do not trust them because YOUR PERSONAL VIEW ,you will never be done in looking for opinions MEN'S BOOKS LIBRARY ARE FULL OF THEM  BUT WHAT CHRIST AS SAID IS THIS ;Jn 17:20 “My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message,

    NOW THE SCRIPTURES HIS THE MESSAGE ,SO ALL OTHER ARE BARE OPINIONS .

    SO WE SAY THE WORD (JOHN;1;1)IS CHRIST THE ONLY SON OF GOD ;THIS AS BEEN LAYOUT TO YOU BUT YOU CANNOT AND WILL NOT ACCEPT THAT TEACHING FROM SCRIPTURES ,BUT YOU CANNOT FIND A RELEASE OF THE IDEA THAT WE MAY BE RIGHT ,AND SO FIND SOME ODD WAY TO CLAIR YOUR SOUL ,

    MANY HERE HAVE TO FACE THAT TRUTH


    T,

    The hypothesis is that Christianity, being the true Judaism, holds in common ideas of the 1st Century Judaism.  One of those is that 1st Century Judio-christianity has a doctrine of the divine Word, a doctrine that does not start a new religion but is a continuation of the old true religion.  

    Philo of Alexander teaches a a divine word doctrine that like other Jewish divine word doctrines does not hold that the Word is a person, even though he calls it the first born son of Jehovah and archangel.  

    At the point you make the Word a separate divine person you abandon the teachings of Mosses and the Prophets.


    Kerwin

    you still do not get it ,CAN YOU NOT YET SEE AND EAR ???WHAT ARE THOSE PEOPLE TO YOU ? NOTHING BECAUSE THEY HAD TO FACE THE SAME REALITY THAN ALL OF US ,AND THAT IS ANSWERING THE QUESTION “DO I BELIEVE THE SCRIPTURES ” IF YOU DO SAY YES ,THEN WHY DO YOU NOT DO IT ,IT SEEMS TO ME YOU HOLDING BACK (LIKE NOT BELIEVING ALL )ARE YOU PRAYING ALSO WITH A DOUBLE MIND IT SEEMS THAT WAY OF WHAT I CAN SEE AND READ OF YOU ,

    IF YOU COULD JUST BELIEVE THE SCRIPTURES AS THEY WERE GIVEN TO YOU AND PRAY ;THE GOD OF THE SCRIPTURES WILL SEE YOUR NEEDS AND GIVE THEM TO YOU

    YOU ARE STILL AN OWNER ,i AM NOT ;

    #350022
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (terraricca @ July 07 2013,05:17)

    Quote (kerwin @ July 07 2013,04:01)

    Quote (terraricca @ July 07 2013,03:37)

    Quote (kerwin @ July 06 2013,23:31)

    Quote (terraricca @ July 06 2013,11:09)

    Quote (kerwin @ July 06 2013,00:01)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 05 2013,07:32)
    Then why don't you just cut to the chase and admit the “demiurge” IS Jesus?  

    You are going WAY out of your way to invent a DIFFERENT supernatural being, through whom all things were created, and who is called “the Word”………… when you have the perfect specimen, Jesus, staring you right in the face.

    He IS called “the Word”, right?  And scripture DOES say all things were created through him, right?  So now all you have to do is BELIEVE JESUS when he says, “I came down from heaven to do the will of Him who sent me”.

    Are you able to do that, Kerwin?  Or will you stick with a different demiurge who you sometimes like to call “the Holy Spirit Son of God”?


    Mike,

    The demiurge of Philo is a being in the sense it exist not in the sense of being a living creature.  He concept is the logos is Jehovah's creative principle and is either believed to have influenced John's writings or come from a common source.  

    Quote
    Philo considers these divine powers in their totality also, treating them as a single independent being, which he designates “Logos.” This name, which he borrowed from Greek philosophy, was first used by Heraclitus and then adopted by the Stoics. Philo's conception of the Logos is influenced by both of these schools. From Heraclitus he borrowed the conception of the “dividing Logos” (λόγος τομεύς), which calls the various objects into existence by the combination of contrasts (“Quis Rerum Divinarum Heres Sit,” § 43 [i. 503]), and from Stoicism, the characterization of the Logos as the active and vivifying power. But Philo borrowed also Platonic elements in designating the Logos as the “idea of ideas” and the “archetypal idea” (“De Migratione Abrahami,” § 18 [i. 452]; “De Specialibus Legibus,” § 36 [ii. 333]). There are, in addition, Biblical elements: there are Biblical passages in which the word of Yhwh is regarded as a power acting independently and existing by itself, as Isa. lv. 11 (comp. Matt. x. 13; Prov. xxx. 4); these ideas were further developed by later Judaism in the doctrines of the Divine Word creating the world, the divine throne-chariot and its cherub, the divine splendor and its shekinah, and the name of God as well as the names of the angels; and Philo borrowed from all these in elaborating his doctrine of the Logos. He calls the Logos the “archangel of many names,” “taxiarch” (corps-commander), the “name of God,” also the “heavenly Adam” (comp. “De Confusione Linguarum,” § 11 [i. 411]), the “man, the word of the eternal God.” The Logos is also designated as “high priest,” in reference to the exalted position which the high priest occupied after the Exile as the real center of the Jewish state. The Logos, like the high priest, is the expiator of sins, and the mediator and advocate for men: ἱκέτης (“Quis Rerum Divinarum Heres Sit,” § 42 [i. 501], and παράκλητος (“De Vita Mosis,” iii. 14 [ii. 155]). From Alexandrian theology Philo borrowed the idea of wisdom as the mediator; he thereby somewhat confused his doctrine of the Logos, regarding wisdom as the higher principle from which the Logos proceeds, and again coordinating it with the latter.

    Philos'  logos

    I didn't invent it,  I am merely reporting on it.


    K

    You are reporting opinions about the opinions of other people ,what is my concern is do you believe the. Bible to be the word of God ,or do you just think the book could have some interest for you ???

    Which is it ???


    T,

    The conversation at the moment is about how the word logus was used in the first century be certain Jews, some who became Christians as Christianity is the true sect of Judaism.   It is not about belief in Scripture as it is is first required to comprehend before you can believe.


    kerwin

    but that also is a opinion ,because the first Christians are those that have written what we call today the scriptures ,and if you do not trust them because YOUR PERSONAL VIEW ,you will never be done in looking for opinions MEN'S BOOKS LIBRARY ARE FULL OF THEM  BUT WHAT CHRIST AS SAID IS THIS ;Jn 17:20 “My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message,

    NOW THE SCRIPTURES HIS THE MESSAGE ,SO ALL OTHER ARE BARE OPINIONS .

    SO WE SAY THE WORD (JOHN;1;1)IS CHRIST THE ONLY SON OF GOD ;THIS AS BEEN LAYOUT TO YOU BUT YOU CANNOT AND WILL NOT ACCEPT THAT TEACHING FROM SCRIPTURES ,BUT YOU CANNOT FIND A RELEASE OF THE IDEA THAT WE MAY BE RIGHT ,AND SO FIND SOME ODD WAY TO CLAIR YOUR SOUL ,

    MANY HERE HAVE TO FACE THAT TRUTH


    T,

    The hypothesis is that Christianity, being the true Judaism, holds in common ideas of the 1st Century Judaism.  One of those is that 1st Century Judio-christianity has a doctrine of the divine Word, a doctrine that does not start a new religion but is a continuation of the old true religion.  

    Philo of Alexander teaches a a divine word doctrine that like other Jewish divine word doctrines does not hold that the Word is a person, even though he calls it the first born son of Jehovah and archangel.  

    At the point you make the Word a separate divine person you abandon the teachings of Mosses and the Prophets.


    Kerwin

    you still do not get it ,CAN YOU NOT YET SEE AND EAR ???WHAT ARE THOSE PEOPLE TO YOU ? NOTHING BECAUSE THEY HAD TO FACE THE SAME REALITY THAN ALL OF US ,AND THAT IS ANSWERING THE QUESTION “DO I BELIEVE THE SCRIPTURES ” IF YOU DO SAY YES ,THEN WHY DO YOU NOT DO IT ,IT SEEMS TO ME
    YOU HOLDING BACK (LIKE NOT BELIEVING ALL )ARE YOU PRAYING ALSO WITH A DOUBLE MIND ??? IT SEEMS THAT WAY OF WHAT I CAN SEE AND READ OF YOU ,

    IF YOU COULD JUST BELIEVE THE SCRIPTURES AS THEY WERE GIVEN TO YOU AND PRAY ;THE GOD OF THE SCRIPTURES WILL SEE YOUR NEEDS AND GIVE THEM TO YOU

    YOU ARE STILL AN OWNER ,i AM NOT ;


    T,

    It is you who do not believe Mosses or the Prophets. If you believed them then you would believe the Word is not a person but it the personalization of Jehovah's utterance. You would know that Jesus by his faith gave flesh to God's utterance and so came to be called by it's name.

    #350075
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (kerwin @ July 06 2013,12:36)
    Mike,

    Revelation 19:13 is a time after the Word was made flesh and only goes to show the Word was made flesh.


    And who did this Word end up being after it was made flesh, Kerwin?  Jesus, right?  So how do you claim the Word was some other demiurge who BECAME Jesus, when all the scriptures point to Jesus being this Word even before he became flesh?

    Quote (kerwin @ July 06 2013,12:36)
    It also goes to show that Jesus is called by the name of the Word mentioned in Isaiah 55:11.


    With the dozens of different applications of “word” in the scripture, what tells you the Word from John 1 is the word from Isaiah 55:11?

    Like I said, the same author wrote John 1, 1 John 1, and Revelation 19.  In all of those, the phrase “the Word [of God]” refers to the same exact person.  And this person is not the very words that God uttered when He spoke the universe into being.  Instead, Isaiah and John were using a different application of the word “word” – which we know has many different applications.

    Quote (kerwin @ July 06 2013,12:36)
    The Word is not only called by that name it is is the Word.


    Again with the “called by that name” thing?  You and Marty and Gene go to town with this weak argument, don't you?  :)

    1.  Why would Jesus be called by that name, if he wasn't that thing?

    2.  Why would Jesus be called by the name of a demiurge through whom all things were created?  If Jesus wasn't that demiurge, and wasn't the one through whom all things were created, then why would he be called by that demiurge's name?

    3.  Does the statement, “no longer will you be called by the name Abram” mean that Abram wasn't REALLY Abram, but instead someone OTHER THAN Abram who just happened to be called by the name “Abram”?  Of course not.

    “Called by the name” is just an idiomatic way of saying “your name is”, or “you are”.

    For example, “He is called by the name Kerwin” is just a way of saying, “His name is Kerwin”, or “He is Kerwin”.

    As you carry along on your quest to topple the actual scriptures and create your own, try not to use such weak arguments.

    Instead, just ask yourself WHY he is called the Word of God if he isn't indeed the Word of God.

    #350076
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (kerwin @ July 06 2013,18:00)
    If you believed them then you would believe the Word is not a person but it the personalization of Jehovah's utterance.  You would know that Jesus by his faith gave flesh to God's utterance and so came to be called by it's name.


    That is one of the most ridiculous things I've ever seen you post on this site, Kerwin.  And believe me, that's really saying something.  :)

    Jesus “gave flesh to Jehovah's utterance”?  

    “Not a person but a personalization”?  

    You say that last statement, but then insist the Word should have pronouns like “it” instead of “he” in John 1.  How can it be “personalized” if we don't give it a PERSONAL pronoun?   ???

    Dude, you are all over the place on your quest to conquer the scriptures.  I will pray that God's shines some light in your direction.

    #350077
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    REMINDER TO ALL:

    It is not necessary to quote the entire conversation each time you add a response to only the last thing the other person said.

    Please quote only that last comment when you reply.  And if your reply is directly below the post to which you are responding, you don't even need to quote.  Just add your reply.

    #350079
    terraricca
    Participant

    K

    Quote
    T,

    It is you who do not believe Mosses or the Prophets. If you believed them then you would believe the Word is not a person but it the personalization of Jehovah's utterance. You would know that Jesus by his faith gave flesh to God's utterance and so came to be called by it's name.

    do you have any scriptures for this ???

    you are still going on your opinion so you have still ownership and so are a judge of the scriptures ,BUT I KNOW BETTER I DO NOT FOLLOW OPINIONS BUT SCRIPTURES ,YOU HAVE NONE IT IS A LIE THAT SIMPLE

    #350101
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (terraricca @ July 08 2013,04:12)
    K

    Quote
    T,

    It is you who do not believe Mosses or the Prophets.  If you believed them then you would believe the Word is not a person but it the personalization of Jehovah's utterance.  You would know that Jesus by his faith gave flesh to God's utterance and so came to be called by it's name.

    do you have any scriptures for this ???

    you are still going on your opinion so you have still ownership and so are a judge of the scriptures ,BUT I KNOW BETTER I DO NOT FOLLOW OPINIONS BUT SCRIPTURES ,YOU HAVE NONE IT IS A LIE THAT SIMPLE


    T,

    There are plenty of Scripture but you do not believe them and instead go by a new teaching that you cannot find support for in the old testament and only a spurious one in the book of Revelations.  

    Scripture declares God created the heaven and earth by his Divine Word and nothing was created without his Divine Word.

    Jesus was created by God's Divine Word.

    Jesus was called by the name of God's Divine Word after it was made flesh and he came in the flesh.

    #350109
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ July 08 2013,07:53)

    Quote (terraricca @ July 08 2013,04:12)
    K

    Quote
    T,

    It is you who do not believe Mosses or the Prophets.  If you believed them then you would believe the Word is not a person but it the personalization of Jehovah's utterance.  You would know that Jesus by his faith gave flesh to God's utterance and so came to be called by it's name.

    do you have any scriptures for this ???

    you are still going on your opinion so you have still ownership and so are a judge of the scriptures ,BUT I KNOW BETTER I DO NOT FOLLOW OPINIONS BUT SCRIPTURES ,YOU HAVE NONE IT IS A LIE THAT SIMPLE


    T,

    There are plenty of Scripture but you do not believe them and instead go by a new teaching that you cannot find support for in the old testament and only a spurious one in the book of Revelations.  

    Scripture declares God created the heaven and earth by his Divine Word and nothing was created without his Divine Word.

    Jesus was created by God's Divine Word.

    Jesus was called by the name of God's Divine Word after it was made flesh and he came in the flesh.


    k

    Quote
    T,

    1)There are plenty of Scripture but you do not believe them
    Jesus was created by God's Divine Word.

    2)Jesus was called by the name of God's Divine Word after it was made flesh and he came in the flesh.

    number 1)

    wrong there are none and that is the reason why you have shown none ,

    2)this is a lie ;Lk 1:35 The angel answered, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God.

    IT CLEARLY SAYS THAT THE POWER OF THE MOST HIGH WILL OVERSHADOW YOU ;THIS IS WHO MADE THE SON COME DOWN FROM HEAVEN AND MADE MARY A SURROGATE MOTHER ;THE POWER OF THE MOST HIGH,

    #350124
    kerwin
    Participant

    Mike,

    Quote
    And who did this Word end up being after it was made flesh, Kerwin? Jesus, right? So how do you claim the Word was some other demiurge who BECAME Jesus, when all the scriptures point to Jesus being this Word even before he became flesh?

    No Scripture calls Jesus the Word except one passage in Revelations and that states he is called by the name of the Word as well as Faithful and True. It does not say when he was first called by any of those names. So you are obviously speaking of something else that leads you to jump to the conclusion that the Word is a synonym for Jesus in John 1.

    Quote
    With the dozens of different applications of “word” in the scripture, what tells you the Word from John 1 is the word from Isaiah 55:11?

    Like I said, the same author wrote John 1, 1 John 1, and Revelation 19. In all of those, the phrase “the Word [of God]” refers to the same exact person. And this person is not the very words that God uttered when He spoke the universe into being. Instead, Isaiah and John were using a different application of the word “word” – which we know has many different applications.

    They all speak of the Word of God in general and there is only one Word of God at that level. You have no evidence to conclude that John was using Word any differently than Isaiah and you now know of the Jewish Divine Word doctrines of the time.

    Quote
    Again with the “called by that name” thing? You and Marty and Gene go to town with this weak argument, don't you?

    You are not comprehending the argument as it is about hierarchy. The Word inherently has a hierarchy than is superior to Jesus as the Word it is what Jesus is called by and the default the Word means the Word.

    You have written more but I have addressed enough for now.

    #350126
    kerwin
    Participant

    T,

    Quote
    number 1)

    wrong there are none and that is the reason why you have shown none ,

    2)this is a lie ;Lk 1:35 The angel answered, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God.

    IT CLEARLY SAYS THAT THE POWER OF THE MOST HIGH WILL OVERSHADOW YOU ;THIS IS WHO MADE THE SON COME DOWN FROM HEAVEN AND MADE MARY A SURROGATE MOTHER ;THE POWER OF THE MOST HIGH,

    It states nothing about the Divine Word but is does teach that Jesus was conceived by the power of Jehovah.  There are humans today that are continuously being conceived by the power of science.  Virgin conception may soon become common due to that same power of science.

    #350128
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 08 2013,02:20)

    Quote (kerwin @ July 06 2013,18:00)
    If you believed them then you would believe the Word is not a person but it the personalization of Jehovah's utterance.  You would know that Jesus by his faith gave flesh to God's utterance and so came to be called by it's name.


    That is one of the most ridiculous things I've ever seen you post on this site, Kerwin.  And believe me, that's really saying something.  :)

    Jesus “gave flesh to Jehovah's utterance”?  

    “Not a person but a personalization”?  

    You say that last statement, but then insist the Word should have pronouns like “it” instead of “he” in John 1.  How can it be “personalized” if we don't give it a PERSONAL pronoun?   ???

    Dude, you are all over the place on your quest to conquer the scriptures.  I will pray that God's shines some light in your direction.


    Mike,

    The Word in the KJV of Isaiah 55:11 uses “it” and yet is a personification.

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