John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 12,841 through 12,860 (of 26,009 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #347743
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (kerwin @ June 14 2013,20:19)
    Mike,

    Just establishing a point at which we agree.


    :) It's good there still are some, Kerwin. They seem to be getting fewer and farther between lately.

    #347744
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (kerwin @ June 14 2013,20:27)
    Charles,

    Every human being comes in the flesh since the soul comes in the flesh.


    Case in point! :)

    Kerwin, since all humans ARE flesh, it is not common to say things like, “Billy the Kid came in the flesh on November 23rd, 1859.”

    That is when he was born, but we don't call being born “coming in the flesh”, do we?

    Have you considered that there actually IS a particular reason John said Jesus “came in the flesh”? Like perhaps he was existing in the form of God, and THEN “came in the flesh” (ie: “became human”) ?

    #347745
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (2besee @ June 14 2013,23:53)

    Quote
    1. Have you even considered that 2B purposely omits the first part of his second scripture – apparently in an effort to deceptively sway the masses?

    You are not saying that to me personally, Mike – but to God who showed me those words.


    I don't doubt that it was God who led you to that verse, 2B.  But I'm quite sure that God intended for you to read the ENTIRE verse – not just the second part of it.  God was most likely leading you to the ENTIRE verse, to show you what I just showed you in my post to Kerwin, but YOUR PERSONAL DESIRES led you to ignore the first part of the verse – the part that was the reason for God leading you to that verse in the first place.

    God was trying to show you that those words apply to His Son JESUS – not to some imagined “Holy Spirit Son of God”.  He is trying to help you out by showing you things like this, 2B.  So try not to just pick and choose only the parts of what God showed you that fit into your pre-conceived doctrine.

    #347750
    carmel
    Participant

    [quote=2besee,June 15 2013,10:42][/quote]

    Quote
    He who says a word against the Son of man can be forgiven, but he who says a word against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, in this age or in the age to come.”

    2 besee,

    THE SON OF MAN , IS NOT THE SON OF GOD!

    THE SON OF MAN IS JESUS AS ORDINARY MAN!

    THAT'S WHY JESUS SAID SON OF MAN!

    ALSO REALIZE THAT THE SON OF GOD, IS THE WORK OF THE HOLY SPIRIT!

    THE WORD IS NOT THE SON OF MAN!

    THE WORD IS THE TRIUNE GOD:

    THE FATHER            JESUS' SPIRIT

    THE HOLY SPIRIT     JESUS' SOUL

    THE SON'S SPIRIT    JESUS' FLESH BODY  ONLY!

    THEREFORE :

    JESUS IN HIS SPIRIT, SOUL, AND BODY WAS GOD IN FLESH! THE SON OF THE SPIRIT GOD!  

    THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE FATHER, AND HIS SON, WAS THAT JESUS HAD A SOUL AND A FLESH BODY! BUT THE FATHER WAS ONLY A SPIRIT!

    BUT THROUGH JESUS HE POSSESSED FOR THE FIRST TIME EVER A SOUL AND A FLESH BODY

    AND BECAME GOD OF ALL FLESH IN JESUS THOUGH!

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles

    #347751
    carmel
    Participant

    [quote=mikeboll64,June 16 2013,07:08][/quote]

    Quote
    Have you considered that there actually IS a particular reason John said Jesus “came in the flesh”?  Like perhaps he was existing in the form of God, and THEN “came in the flesh” (ie:  “became human”) ?

    Mike,

    WELL SAID!

    THAT'S WHAT I SAID AS WELL!

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles

    #347754
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 16 2013,02:08)

    Quote (kerwin @ June 14 2013,20:27)
    Charles,

    Every human being comes in the flesh since the soul comes in the flesh.


    Case in point!  :)

    Kerwin, since all humans ARE flesh, it is not common to say things like, “Billy the Kid came in the flesh on November 23rd, 1859.”

    That is when he was born, but we don't call being born “coming in the flesh”, do we?

    Have you considered that there actually IS a particular reason John said Jesus “came in the flesh”?  Like perhaps he was existing in the form of God, and THEN “came in the flesh” (ie:  “became human”) ?


    Mike,

    It may be an idiom based on the culture of that time or it may be an anti-Gnostic teaching.

    #347758
    2besee
    Participant

    Mike,
    The only reason that John speaks about Jesus coming in the flesh is because certain groups in that time were denying that Jesus Christ came in the flesh and they believed that he was a spirit only, and that includes after the resurrection. Today, we have the Jehovah's Witnesses who also claim that Jesus was risen as a spirit only. They deny the flesh resurrection. THAT is what John was alluding to.

    Did you not know that?

    There are extensive writings detailing the early churches fight against Gnosticism (or “knowledge falsely so called”) and the Gnostics denial of the flesh. The early Church said that Jesus was flesh – real, and that Jesus was resurrected as flesh – real, not as an illusion, or not in appearance only. That is apparently what is meant by “came/coming in the flesh”.

    #347761
    jammin
    Participant

    kerwin and to all sniffing mosquito guys,

    make your own bible and put in john 1.1 that the word is the HS.

    stop making stories.
    you should give proof and not unwritten stories.

    #347763
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (jammin @ June 16 2013,05:23)
    kerwin and to all sniffing mosquito guys,

    make your own bible and put in john 1.1 that the word is the HS.

    stop making stories.
    you should give proof and not unwritten stories.


    Jammin,

    The Word is the Word in John 1:1.

    #347770
    2besee
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 16 2013,09:11)

    Quote (2besee @ June 14 2013,23:53)

    Quote
    1. Have you even considered that 2B purposely omits the first part of his second scripture – apparently in an effort to deceptively sway the masses?

    You are not saying that to me personally, Mike – but to God who showed me those words.


    I don't doubt that it was God who led you to that verse, 2B.  But I'm quite sure that God intended for you to read the ENTIRE verse – not just the second part of it.  God was most likely leading you to the ENTIRE verse, to show you what I just showed you in my post to Kerwin, but YOUR PERSONAL DESIRES led you to ignore the first part of the verse – the part that was the reason for God leading you to that verse in the first place.

    God was trying to show you that those words apply to His Son JESUS – not to some imagined “Holy Spirit Son of God”.  He is trying to help you out by showing you things like this, 2B.  So try not to just pick and choose only the parts of what God showed you that fit into your pre-conceived doctrine.


    Mike,

    Just as a recap, okay, sorry for the novel.

    I surrendered all of my own ideas, and I asked God who Jesus was. I was shown that Jesus is the Holy Spirit. I told a close friend, and they told me that Jesus was NOT the Holy Spirit, and so I put it aside for a while. Some time after that a family member mentioned the eternal spirit, and that stuck on my mind.
    Soon after, was the words “In the beginning was the word, the word was with God and the word was God”, I could not get that out if my head. Due to frustration, I prayed and asked God for the truth.  Immediately, I was given the words “No one knows the thoughts of a man but the spirit that is in him, like wise, no one knows the mind of God but, the spirit of God” and then days later “Nobody knows the Father but the Son”. I was shown the connection.
    I was amazed, but could not understand some things , and so asked. God showed me that the Disciples also did not know much – and they only understood when Jesus spoke plainly to them,  I was shown that I have a whole lifetime to learn.

    I told another trinitarian relation what I was shown, and she gave me the verse which says “the Lord is the Spirit” and one verse led onto another. Then was the early church book “The Shepherd of Hermes”, which said the same thing as what I was shown – and the fact that the entire book was in the earliest time of the Church considered to be canon, and even read out loud in the earliest churches until it was dismissed from canon at the council of Nicea – and the only reason that they dismissed it as canon, though it WAS called canon, was NOT for its belief that the Son was the Holy Spirit – nor for its adoptionist type view of the Son of Man – that was not even mentioned at the council BUT because of its stance on repentance (or something related). The fact is that the early Church had no problem in the Spirit being the Son of God – it was never argued against.

    As for the word “only begotten” or “ONLY Son” – I have shown you proof that it was not in the original Greek, but that fell on deaf ears.

    I trust what was shown to me despite what anyone else may think, it matters not.

    I am in the process of learning and I trust no man.

    For me personally, the evidence would be in the fruit – and I know myself that I have changed a lot from what I was becoming.

    I am not impressed, Mike, that you are using psychological tactics to try and sway another member towards your beliefs. You were speaking lies against them, and you know who the father of lies is, and it is to God you are answerable. I advise you, again, to stop.

    Seek truth Mike.

    #347771
    2besee
    Participant

    Hi Carmel,
    Are you a Christian Scientist (I think they are called)?

    #347780
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (2besee @ June 16 2013,08:33)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 16 2013,09:11)

    Quote (2besee @ June 14 2013,23:53)

    Quote
    1. Have you even considered that 2B purposely omits the first part of his second scripture – apparently in an effort to deceptively sway the masses?

    You are not saying that to me personally, Mike – but to God who showed me those words.


    I don't doubt that it was God who led you to that verse, 2B.  But I'm quite sure that God intended for you to read the ENTIRE verse – not just the second part of it.  God was most likely leading you to the ENTIRE verse, to show you what I just showed you in my post to Kerwin, but YOUR PERSONAL DESIRES led you to ignore the first part of the verse – the part that was the reason for God leading you to that verse in the first place.

    God was trying to show you that those words apply to His Son JESUS – not to some imagined “Holy Spirit Son of God”.  He is trying to help you out by showing you things like this, 2B.  So try not to just pick and choose only the parts of what God showed you that fit into your pre-conceived doctrine.


    Mike,

    Just as a recap, okay, sorry for the novel.

    I surrendered all of my own ideas, and I asked God who Jesus was. I was shown that Jesus is the Holy Spirit. I told a close friend, and they told me that Jesus was NOT the Holy Spirit, and so I put it aside for a while. Some time after that a family member mentioned the eternal spirit, and that stuck on my mind.
    Soon after, was the words “In the beginning was the word, the word was with God and the word was God”, I could not get that out if my head. Due to frustration, I prayed and asked God for the truth.  Immediately, I was given the words “No one knows the thoughts of a man but the spirit that is in him, like wise, no one knows the mind of God but, the spirit of God” and then days later “Nobody knows the Father but the Son”. I was shown the connection.
    I was amazed, but could not understand some things , and so asked. God showed me that the Disciples also did not know much – and they only understood when Jesus spoke plainly to them,  I was shown that I have a whole lifetime to learn.

    I told another trinitarian relation what I was shown, and she gave me the verse which says “the Lord is the Spirit” and one verse led onto another. Then was the early church book “The Shepherd of Hermes”, which said the same thing as what I was shown – and the fact that the entire book was in the earliest time of the Church considered to be canon, and even read out loud in the earliest churches until it was dismissed from canon at the council of Nicea – and the only reason that they dismissed it as canon, though it WAS called canon, was NOT for its belief that the Son was the Holy Spirit – nor for its adoptionist type view of the Son of Man – that was not even mentioned at the council BUT because of its stance on repentance (or something related). The fact is that the early Church had no problem in the Spirit being the Son of God – it was never argued against.

    As for the word “only begotten” or “ONLY Son” – I have shown you proof that it was not in the original Greek, but that fell on deaf ears.

    I trust what was shown to me despite what anyone else may think, it matters not.

    I am in the process of learning and I trust no man.

    For me personally, the evidence would be in the fruit – and I know myself that I have changed a lot from what I was becoming.

    I am not impressed, Mike, that you are using psychological tactics to try and sway another member towards your beliefs. You were speaking lies against them, and you know who the father of lies is, and it is to God you are answerable. I advise you, again, to stop.

    Seek truth Mike.


    2bee

    Quote
    I am in the process of learning and I trust no man.

    this I question ???

    Quote
    I prayed and asked God for the truth.  Immediately, I was given the words “No one knows the thoughts of a man but the spirit that is in him, like wise, no one knows the mind of God but, the spirit of God” and then days later “Nobody knows the Father but the Son”. I was shown the connection.

    I have understand that God cannot lie or contradict himself ,and so his written words to us mean truth ,as far as you say and talk ,your believe now as gone against the truth ,because you remodeling the scriptures to fit your new understanding ,worse you say that your info comes from God ,CAN GOD NOW LIE CAN HIS PROPHETS LIE WHEN UNDER THE DIRECTION OF THE HOLY SPIRIT THEY HAVE WRITTEN THE WORDS OF GOD ???

    YOU SAY YOU DO NOT TRUST MEN ,THINK OF WHAT YOU SAY IF YOU DO NOT BELIEVE THE WRITTEN WORD OF GOD THEN WHO IS IT THAT YOU BELIEVE AND TRUST ??? IS IT NOT MEN IF NOT YOURSELF ,

    MANY HAVE CALLED “LORD ,LORD BUT WHAT DID CHRIST SAYS ABOUT THEM ?

    #347786
    jammin
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ June 16 2013,10:40)

    Quote (jammin @ June 16 2013,05:23)
    kerwin and to all sniffing mosquito guys,

    make your own bible and put in john 1.1 that the word is the HS.

    stop making stories.
    you should give proof and not unwritten stories.


    Jammin,

    The Word is the Word in John 1:1.


    and that WORD in john 1.1 is Christ.

    John 1:1
    New Life Version (NLV)
    Christ Lived Before the World Was Made

    1 The Word (Christ) was in the beginning. The Word was with God. The Word was God.

    i will not accept if you say HS, UNLESS you can give me VERSION saying that the word in john 1.1 is the HS.

    #347810
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (kerwin @ June 15 2013,16:20)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 16 2013,02:08)

    Kerwin, since all humans ARE flesh, it is not common to say things like, “Billy the Kid came in the flesh on November 23rd, 1859.”

    That is when he was born, but we don't call being born “coming in the flesh”, do we?


    Mike,

    It may be an idiom based on the culture of that time or it may be an anti-Gnostic teaching.


    If it is a cultural idiom, then we should be able to find some examples in scripture of regular human beings who were said to have “come in the flesh”, right?

    Are there any?

    Also, did you even consider the possibility that John said those words for a very specific reason, such as: Jesus WAS INDEED existing in the form of God BEFORE “coming in the flesh”?

    Are you unable to see how John's use of “has come in the flesh” matches EXACTLY with Phil 2:6-8? Or how it matches EXACTLY with John 1:14, Hebrews 2:14, Acts 2:30, and Romans 1:3?

    #347811
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (2besee @ June 15 2013,20:33)
    Immediately, I was given the words “No one knows the thoughts of a man but the spirit that is in him, like wise, no one knows the mind of God but, the spirit of God” and then days later “Nobody knows the Father but the Son”. I was shown the connection.


    I don't doubt you were shown these two things, 2B.  But the “connection” between them is all of your own doing.

    It's more likely that God showed you these two OPPOSING scriptures to empty your head of the thought that Jesus is the Holy Spirit, but His attempt was lost on you.

    The MAN Jesus Christ said the words, “Nobody knows the Father but the Son, and those to whom the Son reveals Him”.

    It was the MAN Jesus Christ to whom the Father had given all things.  And it was the MAN Jesus Christ who revealed the Father to the rest of us………… even those of us who have never received the gift of the Holy Spirit.

    The “Son” in Matthew 11:27 is JESUS – not some imagined “Holy Spirit Son of God”.

    #347812
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (2besee @ June 15 2013,20:33)
    The fact is that the early Church had no problem in the Spirit being the Son of God – it was never argued against.


    Read the Creed, 2B.

    The early church fathers proclaim one Father, one Son, and one Holy Spirit.

    They DON'T confess one Father, and TWO Sons, one of whom is the Holy Spirit.

    #347813
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Kerwin,

    I await your response to the first post on page 864.

    #347814
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (2besee @ June 15 2013,20:33)
    I surrendered all of my own ideas, and I asked God who Jesus was. I was shown that Jesus is the Holy Spirit.


    Luke 10:21
    At that time Jesus, full of joy through the Holy Spirit, said, “I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children.

    How can “the Holy Spirit Son of God” be full of joy THROUGH “the Holy Spirit Son of God”?

    #347816
    carmel
    Participant

    [quote=2besee,June 16 2013,13:33][/quote]

    Quote
    I was shown that Jesus is the Holy Spirit.

    2besee,

    JESUS CANNOT BE THE HOLY SPIRIT!

    JESUS IS THE SON OF GOD, AND SON OF MAN:

    AS SON OF GOD:

    HE HAD THE

    SPIRIT OF THE FATHER

    AS HIS SOUL HE HAD

    THE HOLY SPIRIT

    AS HIS FLESH BODY HE HAD

    THE SON'S SPIRIT

    AS SON OF MAN, WHEN HE WAS BORN,  TILL HE WAS BAPTIZED!,

    HE HAD SATAN'S SPIRIT IN HIS SOUL!

    HE HAD THE HOLY SPIRIT AS HIS SOUL!

    AND THE SON'S SPIRIT AS HIS FLESH BODY!

    SO THE ONLY DIFFERENCE WAS THE SPIRIT!

    THEN JOHN REMOVED SATAN'S SPIRIT ON BAPTIZM!

    THEN THE FATHER OFFICIALLY FUNCTIONED IN HIS SOUL!

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles

    #347831
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (carmel @ June 16 2013,22:52)
    [quote=2besee,June 16 2013,13:33][/quote]

    Quote
    I was shown that Jesus is the Holy Spirit.

    2besee,

    JESUS CANNOT BE THE HOLY SPIRIT!

    JESUS IS THE SON OF GOD, AND SON OF MAN:

    AS SON OF GOD:

    HE HAD THE

    SPIRIT OF THE FATHER

    AS HIS SOUL HE HAD

    THE HOLY SPIRIT

    AS HIS FLESH BODY HE HAD

    THE SON'S SPIRIT

    AS SON OF MAN, WHEN HE WAS BORN,  TILL HE WAS BAPTIZED!,

    HE HAD SATAN'S SPIRIT IN HIS SOUL!

    HE HAD THE HOLY SPIRIT AS HIS SOUL!

    AND THE SON'S SPIRIT AS HIS FLESH BODY!

    SO THE ONLY DIFFERENCE WAS THE SPIRIT!

    THEN JOHN REMOVED SATAN'S SPIRIT ON BAPTIZM!

    THEN THE FATHER OFFICIALLY FUNCTIONED IN HIS SOUL!

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles


    Charles'

    Quote
    THE SON'S SPIRIT

    AS SON OF MAN, WHEN HE WAS BORN, TILL HE WAS BAPTIZED!,

    HE HAD SATAN'S SPIRIT IN HIS SOUL!

    HE HAD THE HOLY SPIRIT AS HIS SOUL!

    AND THE SON'S SPIRIT AS HIS FLESH BODY!

    SO THE ONLY DIFFERENCE WAS THE SPIRIT!

    THEN JOHN REMOVED SATAN'S SPIRIT ON BAPTIZM!

    THEN THE FATHER OFFICIALLY FUNCTIONED IN HIS SOUL!

    you have no clue of scriptures ,just your own way ;

    Mt 1:21 She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins.”
    Mt 1:22 All this took place to fulfill what the Lord had said through the prophet:

    from birth Christ was destine to be the Christ and Satan could not do anything

    Mt 3:13 Then Jesus came from Galilee to the Jordan to be baptized by John.
    Mt 3:14 But John tried to deter him, saying, “I need to be baptized by you, and do you come to me?”
    Mt 3:15 Jesus replied, “Let it be so now; it is proper for us to do this to fulfill all righteousness.” Then John consented.
    Mt 3:16 As soon as Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and lighting on him.
    Mt 3:17 And a voice from heaven said, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.”

    John did not do anything beside do what it was told to do ,

    Jn 1:30 This is the one I meant when I said, ‘A man who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.’

    Lk 2:49 “Why were you searching for me?” he asked. “Didn’t you know I had to be in my Father’s house?”
    Lk 2:50 But they did not understand what he was saying to them.
    Lk 2:51 Then he went down to Nazareth with them and was obedient to them. But his mother treasured all these things in her heart.
    Lk 2:52 And Jesus grew in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and men.

    for a twelve year old boy he knew what he was and came to do ,

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