John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 12,561 through 12,580 (of 26,009 total)
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  • #343847
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Terrica………The Spirit of truth is also from God and has already been given to Some including Jesus, Now if you do not believe in the SEVEN SPIRITS of GOD that are before the very Throne of God, then you are in contradiction to “Plainly” written scriptures, we have posted. I thought you have said over and over you believed the Scriptures it appears you Don't in this case anyway. You look at God as you do an ordinary person, God is not a Person He is “Personified” as a Person. Like Wisdom is personified as a She, and Love also, ha-Satan is also personified as a Person, even Jesus Personified God as a Person, but what did he later say to the disciples regarding the Father?

    “I have spoken to you about the Father in a “Proverbial” Language, “BUT” a time will come when i will Show you Plainly of or about  the Father”. The word used there for a proverb means a “factious illustration”. Do you need scripture i can post them for you , but the question is will you “believe “them?  

    Many people think Satan is a Angel, because of the language used in Ezekiel, and even get the Idea that his name is Lucifer, But what they fail to do is read what God said before he sent Ezekiel to the King of Babylon, where he said take this Proverb (a factious illustration) to the King of Babylon.

    They realize a human being could not really be that, so they ascribe it to a Satan “being”, but fail to realize it is not a true depiction of a real human, but what the King in his deceived puffed up heart was thinking about himself, thinking he was so great, God was ridiculing Him with those Word shown him his own Proud and haughty Heart the King had. Non of that had anything to do with a real “ha-satan” or a Persons name at All. It all was a proverb (factious illustration)  to show the King his proud heart and what God was going to do about it. Go check it our for yourself and see if the word “PROVERB” is not there and then go look up the meaning of “PROVERB”.

    peace and love to you and yours Pierre………………………………………………….gene

    #343874
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (2besee @ May 04 2013,23:37)
    May I ask WHY you are continually quoting from “NETNOTES” and Trinitarian scholars? Everywhere I look are “NETNOTES” quotes.


    Why does it bother you so much?   ???

    2B, if and when you can ever SCRIPTURALLY refute something I've posted from NETNotes, then DO SO.  If you cannot refute what I've posted from them, then shhhhhh.

    (BTW, your post is misleading. Did it not dawn on you that I was specifically using TRINITARIAN scholars for jammin to prove my point?)

    #343876
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (kerwin @ May 04 2013,23:38)
    Mike,

    The heavenly team created man, each member doing his part according to Yahweh's command.


    And how do you reconcile that claim against “God alone created”?

    I've identified your problem today. The word “said”, as in “God said”, is SINGULAR, not plural.

    So one God said, “Let US make man in OUR image”. It wasn't multiple gods who said the words.

    Does that help?

    #343878
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (abe @ May 04 2013,23:50)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 04 2013,20:31)

    Quote (abe @ May 04 2013,12:53)

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ May 04 2013,07:18)
    To All……….God was not speaking to his angles at all, they have no creative ability, but he was speaking to the SEVEN SPIRITS of GOD which are before the Throne of The LORD “YAHWEH” who is our God, he used those SEVEN SPIRITS to create all his creation. Jesus is not the us mentioned there nor are the Angles either. IMO

    peace and love to you all……………………………………………gene


    Hi Gene,

    Amen.


    Oh brother.  ???

    Gene and Abe, are these 7 spirits of God PERSONS who have their own minds and thoughts?  Are they spirit BEINGS?


    Hi Mike,

    Is.11:1   Then a shoot will spring from the stem of Jesse, And a branch from his roots will bear fruit.
    2The Spirit of the LORD will rest on Him, The spirit of wisdom and understanding, The spirit of counsel and strength, The spirit of knowledge and the fear of the LORD.

    Rev.4:5   And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the  seven  Spirits of God.

    The Spirit of the Lord is  ONE  of Seven.

    Peace brother…


    So you think Is 11 says, “The Spirit of the LORD and the spirit of wisdom and the spirit of understanding and……………………….. ?

    I never thought of it that way.  I don't think those “ands” are in the Hebrew. Nor does it make sense to me that only one of those spirits is called “the Spirit of the LORD”. Wouldn't they ALL be “spirits of the LORD”? And if they are intended to be listed as various “spirits of the LORD”, then isn't there one missing? Because if you lump them all together as “spirits of the LORD”, then the list only contains six – not seven.

    But anyway, please answer the actual question I asked, okay?

    #343879
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (terraricca @ May 05 2013,21:47)
    Those seven so called spirits are not seven but Six

    All are included in the SPIRIT OF THE LORD(GOD ALMIGHTY)


    Oops. I answered before seeing that you already said the same thing. :)

    #343880
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (2besee @ May 05 2013,16:31)

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ May 06 2013,03:02)
    And to me this was who the Lord our God was speaking to when he said in Genesis “let us make man in “OUR” Image.

    Gene, yes I agree.


    Okay Abe.  You agree with Gene.  Now, do you think these were BEINGS God was speaking to?  Or do you also agree with Gene that these were seven “cognate thoughts” – or whatever he calls them?

    Gene, what does it mean for God to speak to a NON-being as if it were a being?  I mean, why is God talking TO these spirits as if they were persons?

    #343881
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (jammin @ May 05 2013,14:55)
    Mike im still waiting for your answer. You said God is not everywhere.but what if i cn read that to you,will you accept that you are a false teacher?


    I already told you that if you can show me that God is “omnipresent” IN THE ACTUAL HEBREW OR GREEK TEXT OF THE SCRIPTURES, then I will admit that I was wrong about that one thing.

    No, I WON'T admit I am a “false teacher” in general.

    So now your question has been answered AGAIN as clearly as I can answer it.

    In other words, I'm calling you, jammin. It's now time for you to lay down your hand and show us your cards.

    #343882
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    jammin,

    Why are you trying to change the topic? Don't you want to comment on all those TRINITARIAN scholars Kerwin and I listed? You know – the ones who say God was talking to His divine counsel of angels in Gen 1:26.

    #343947
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 07 2013,12:52)

    Quote (2besee @ May 05 2013,16:31)

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ May 06 2013,03:02)
    And to me this was who the Lord our God was speaking to when he said in Genesis “let us make man in “OUR” Image.

    Gene, yes I agree.


    Okay Abe.  You agree with Gene.  Now, do you think these were BEINGS God was speaking to?  Or do you also agree with Gene that these were seven “cognate thoughts” – or whatever he calls them?

    Gene, what does it mean for God to speak to a NON-being as if it were a being?  I mean, why is God talking TO these spirits as if they were persons?


    Mike………I do not say Spirits were Congnate thoughts, i said they, (Spirits) gives us “our” cognate intellects again yet another misunderstand of what i posted. God according to Jesus is a Spirit right?, so is he a “BEING” so what Kind of “Being” is he? it all depends on what you call a “Being” right?

    God according to you must be an angel as you believe Angels are Spirit “beings” right?, so being God is a Spirit, and you believe Spirits are Angels , what kind of Angel is God Mike? O that's right Mike, Jesus is a Spirt now also according to you, and so that is why he is your “little” God. RIGHT!

    peace and love to you and yours………………………………gen

    #343948
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ May 07 2013,21:50)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 07 2013,12:52)

    Quote (2besee @ May 05 2013,16:31)

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ May 06 2013,03:02)
    And to me this was who the Lord our God was speaking to when he said in Genesis “let us make man in “OUR” Image.

    Gene, yes I agree.


    Okay Abe.  You agree with Gene.  Now, do you think these were BEINGS God was speaking to?  Or do you also agree with Gene that these were seven “cognate thoughts” – or whatever he calls them?

    Gene, what does it mean for God to speak to a NON-being as if it were a being?  I mean, why is God talking TO these spirits as if they were persons?


    Mike………I do not say Spirits  were Congnate thoughts, i said they, (Spirits) gives us “our” cognate intellects again yet another misunderstand of what i posted. God according to Jesus is a Spirit right?, so is he a “BEING” so what Kind of “Being” is he?  it all depends on what you call a “Being” right?  

    God according to you must be an angel as you believe Angels are Spirit “beings” right?,  so being God is a Spirit, and you believe Spirits are Angels , what kind of Angel is God Mike?  O that's right Mike,  Jesus is a Spirt now also according to you, and so that is why he is your “little” God.  RIGHT!

    peace and love to you and yours………………………………gen


    Gene

    God is a spirit but he his not lower than his creation
    Angels beings are some what lower than Christ and we know that Christ is the second to God ,just as all earth mammals are not the same,
    Men being the top of the line,and we do not know now what a spirit being looks like in his own environment (in heaven)

    #343949
    abe
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 06 2013,17:42)

    Quote (abe @ May 04 2013,23:50)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 04 2013,20:31)

    Quote (abe @ May 04 2013,12:53)

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ May 04 2013,07:18)
    To All……….God was not speaking to his angles at all, they have no creative ability, but he was speaking to the SEVEN SPIRITS of GOD which are before the Throne of The LORD “YAHWEH” who is our God, he used those SEVEN SPIRITS to create all his creation. Jesus is not the us mentioned there nor are the Angles either. IMO

    peace and love to you all……………………………………………gene


    Hi Gene,

    Amen.


    Oh brother.  ???

    Gene and Abe, are these 7 spirits of God PERSONS who have their own minds and thoughts?  Are they spirit BEINGS?


    Hi Mike,

    Is.11:1   Then a shoot will spring from the stem of Jesse, And a branch from his roots will bear fruit.
    2The Spirit of the LORD will rest on Him, The spirit of wisdom and understanding, The spirit of counsel and strength, The spirit of knowledge and the fear of the LORD.

    Rev.4:5   And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the  seven  Spirits of God.

    The Spirit of the Lord is  ONE  of Seven.

    Peace brother…


    So you think Is 11 says, “The Spirit of the LORD and the spirit of wisdom and the spirit of understanding and……………………….. ?

    I never thought of it that way.  I don't think those “ands” are in the Hebrew.  Nor does it make sense to me that only one of those spirits is called “the Spirit of the LORD”.  Wouldn't they ALL be “spirits of the LORD”?  And if they are intended to be listed as various “spirits of the LORD”, then isn't there one missing?  Because if you lump them all together as “spirits of the LORD”, then the list only contains six – not seven.

    But anyway, please answer the actual question I asked, okay?


    Hi Mike,

    Rev.5:12 saying with a loud voice, “Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power and riches and wisdom and might and honor and glory and blessing.”

    Seven.

    1Cor.1:24 but to those who are the Called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the Power of God and the Wisdom of God.

    Two.

    Rev.5:6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and OF the four beasts, and in the midst of the Elders, stood a Lamb as it had been Slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the SEVEN Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

    Peace brother….

    #343951
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Abe,

    I asked (twice now) if the seven spirits of God are PERSONS, with their own minds and wills.

    Please answer the question.

    #343952
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ May 07 2013,09:50)
    God according to Jesus is a Spirit right?, so is he a “BEING” so what Kind of “Being” is he?  it all depends on what you call a “Being” right?  


    Yes Gene.  And I assume most people understand the word “being” to refer to a cognizant entity – one who is an individual (separate from all others), and who has a mind and will of his own.

    When I say “alien being”, do you imagine an unconscious spirit who is sent by another, as a tool?  Or do you imagine certain alien life forms that think for themselves, and have wills of their own?  

    When I say “human blood cell”, do you imagine that this blood cell IS a human BEING?  What if I say “human intellect”?  Do you imagine that this intellect IS a human BEING?  

    When I say God is a spirit BEING, I refer to God as a cognizant PERSON who has His own mind, feelings, will, emotions, heart, soul, power, etc.  Are we now understanding each other?  And if so, do YOU believe that God is a spirit BEING?

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ May 07 2013,09:50)
    God according to you must be an angel as you believe Angels are Spirit “beings” right?,  


    Satan and his demons are also spirit beings, Gene.  Does that mean I think God is a demon – or Satan himself?   ???

    Angels are spirit sons of God who are often messengers OF God.  God is a spirit being who DOESN'T deliver anyone else's message to others.  Nor is He a son of anyone.  So no, God is not an angel, although He IS a spirit being.

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ May 07 2013,09:50)
    O that's right Mike,  Jesus is a Spirt now also according to you, and so that is why he is your “little” God.  RIGHT!


    Correct, Gene.  Jesus is now a spirit being.  I've learned this fact from the holy scriptures.  And Jesus is a god who is not the Most High God, so therefore he is a “less high god” than the Most High God.  I've also learned this fact from the holy scriptures.

    Are you beginning to understand these things, Gene?  And if you are too stubborn to even try to understand them, are you at least willing to accept that the things I believe come straight out of the holy scriptures?

    #343962
    abe
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 07 2013,13:44)
    Abe,

    I asked (twice now) if the seven spirits of God are PERSONS, with their own minds and wills.

    Please answer the question.


    Hi Mike,

    Why do you have to ADD to the Scriptures? I don't SEE the word Person? Deal with your OWN Demons.

    Peace.

    #343969
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 07 2013,07:40)

    Quote (kerwin @ May 04 2013,23:38)
    Mike,

    The heavenly team created man, each member doing his part according to Yahweh's command.


    And how do you reconcile that claim against “God alone created”?

    I've identified your problem today.  The word “said”, as in “God said”, is SINGULAR, not plural.

    So one God said, “Let US make man in OUR image”.  It wasn't multiple gods who said the words.

    Does that help?


    Mike,

    The angels are Jehovah's tools and not his fellow workmen.

    I have not looked at “said” or how it relates.

    I do not know if plural majesties were used in Scripture or are in Hebrew to be used.

    #343971
    jammin
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ May 03 2013,19:47)

    Quote (jammin @ May 03 2013,10:57)

    Quote (kerwin @ May 03 2013,15:08)

    Quote (jammin @ May 03 2013,04:16)
    kerwin,

    they worshipped jesus bec he is God. (not the father but the Son)

    john 20.28

    thomas said to jesus , my Lord and my God.

    what about commentary?
    let me post what commentary said

    mat 28.9

    Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible

    …and worshipped him: with divine adoration, expressing their love to him; their faith and hope in him, owning him to be their Lord and God; he being, by his resurrection from the dead, declared to be the Son of God, with power; and so the proper object of religious worship.

    btw i still an assignment for you.
    where is your hebrew bible that says in gen 1.26 that God is talking to his angels?

    i can wait boy.
    ill give million yrs LOL


    Jammin,

    And how does Gill get all that out of a few words that can mean they paid obeisance to the King of the Jews.

    Elohim, translated God, means angels in some contexts.


    then give me an english version that says in gen 1.26 that GOD is talking to his angels.
    dont waste my time mate.
    give me version and stop talking./


    Jammon,

    So you wand me to quote the translations of the apostate church as evidence.  Elohim is plural because the context is plural.  That translation seems at odd with the fact God alone created the universe.

     

    Quote
    This argument, however, is deeply flawed, and, accordingly, a great number of Trinitarian theologians have long rejected the notion that Genesis 1:26 implies a plurality of persons in the godhead. Rather, Christian scholars overwhelmingly agree that the plural pronoun in this verse is a reference to God’s ministering angels who were created previously, and the Almighty spoke majestically in the plural, consulting His heavenly court. Let’s read the comments of a number of preeminent Trinitarian Bible scholars on this subject.

    Note: My Source is Rabbi Singer


    no version yet boy?

    ill give you 1m years to find one.

    #343974
    jammin
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 07 2013,12:56)

    Quote (jammin @ May 05 2013,14:55)
    Mike im still waiting for your answer. You said God is not everywhere.but what if i cn read that to you,will you accept that you are a false teacher?


    I already told you that if you can show me that God is “omnipresent” IN THE ACTUAL HEBREW OR GREEK TEXT OF THE SCRIPTURES, then I will admit that I was wrong about that one thing.

    No, I WON'T admit I am a “false teacher” in general.

    So now your question has been answered AGAIN as clearly as I can answer it.

    In other words, I'm calling you, jammin.  It's now time for you to lay down your hand and show us your cards.


    what is the use of hebrew if you dont understand it boy?

    i am not asking you for hebrew bible to give me in gn1.26 that GOD is talking to his angels.

    i am just asking you for a version not a footnote boy.

    but you are asking me for hebrew? LOL

    you are not even a scholar to discuss these things.
    you are a kid boy. you need to study hard LOL

    im asking you again
    what if i can read to you that GOD is everywhere, will you accept that you are a false teacher?

    and show me a version that says in gen 1.26 that GOD is talking to his angels.

    ill give you 1m yrs

    #344002
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (kerwin @ May 07 2013,19:20)
    Mike,

    The angels are Jehovah's tools and not his fellow workmen.


    Agreed, which is why I wondered when you said this the other day:

    Quote (kerwin @ May 04 2013,23:38)

    Mike,

    The heavenly team created man, each member doing his part according to Yahweh's command.

    Quote (kerwin @ May 07 2013,19:20)
    I do not know if plural majesties were used in Scripture or are in Hebrew to be used.


    Yes they were – with more words than “elohim”.

    #344003
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Kerwin,

    The following is from Wikipedia:

    It is worthy of note that, in the Biblical Hebrew (as well as in many other languages, such as Yaqui) the customary grammatical “plurality” of a word is often simply that: a grammatical plural. The use of “plural” forms for singular nouns is common in the Hebrew Bible, and often connotes quintessence, uniqueness, or might rather than plurality (though it may connote both).

    Thus, the phrase “מלך מלכי המלכים” (“melekh maləkêi ha-məlâkhim”) does not refer to “a king, kings of kings”, but to “a king of unsurpassed kingship”;

    שיר השירים,
    (“shir ha-shirim”) does not refer to “a song of songs”, but to “a song that is the quintessential song”;

    ימים רבים (“yamim rabim”) refers to “a great sea” as easily as to “great [or 'many'] seas”.

    A clue to this is the Hebrew grammatical term for “plural”: lâshon rabbim, meaning “a term of grandiosities”.

    The Hebrew word for “plural” actually means “a term of grandiosities”.

    #344004
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (abe @ May 07 2013,18:18)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 07 2013,13:44)
    Abe,

    I asked (twice now) if the seven spirits of God are PERSONS, with their own minds and wills.

    Please answer the question.


    Hi Mike,

    Why do you have to  ADD  to the Scriptures?  I don't SEE the word Person?  Deal with your  OWN  Demons.


    I don't see the words “human BEINGS” in any scripture either.  Does that mean you “don't know” if any human BEINGS are mentioned in the scriptures?   ???

    Does it mean that if I say Jesus was a human BEING, I am “adding to the scriptures”? Or does the fact that I say Jesus was a human BEING mean I have “demons to deal with”?

    Come on, Abe. Get real.

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