John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 12,321 through 12,340 (of 26,009 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #342332
    terraricca
    Participant

    Jammi

    Quote
    the trinity tells us that there are 3 persons but one in essence or nature and that is nature God.

    that is the true teachings of the apostles. although we cant find in the bible the word “trinity”,
    the meaning of it is the same teaching that the apostles have in mind.

    COULD YOU PRESENT 7 SEVEN SCRIPTURES THAT GIVE CLEAR TEACHING OF THE TRINITY ;BOY ???

    I HOPE YOU DO NOT RUN AWAY ,BOY,

    #342334
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (jammin @ April 19 2013,19:51)
    i said if you said living thing, then you are referring to the person


    A tree is a living thing. Is a tree a “person”? ???

    jammin, I was just having some fun with you anyway. I already know that you believe God is one BEING made up of three PERSONS. That is, after all, the standard Trinitarian belief……. despite the fact it is laughably nonsensical. But even though I knew what you believe, I thought it would be fun to see just how far you would carry on trying not to SAY it.

    Why are you so embarrassed of your own doctrine? ???

    #342346
    jammin
    Participant

    well if you use living thing to tree then the word living thing there refers to function independently

    if i say GOD as one being, it refers to the nature/form.

    are you and your father dont have the same nature?

    why mike? are you an animal or alien? and your father is human?> LOL

    #342348
    jammin
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ April 20 2013,13:10)

    Quote (jammin @ April 20 2013,05:22)
    kerwin,

    you said jesus is human. yes he is but you are saying is NOT the whole truth

    let me post what the bible said

    Philippians 2:6-7
    Contemporary English Version (CEV)
    6 Christ was truly God.
    But he did not try to remain[a]
       equal with God.
    7 Instead he gave up everything[b]
       and became a slave,
    when he became
       like one of us.

    the bible said he was God before he became human.

    study hard sunshine.


    Jammin,

    Why do you think this interpretation of Scripture makes the contradictions in your teaching disappear?


    christ was God before he became human.

    read phil 2.6-7 over and over again.

    and i believe that…

    he is God the son

    believe it or not the bible said that there is God the father and God the son.

    #342349
    jammin
    Participant

    Quote (terraricca @ April 20 2013,13:24)
    Jammi

    Quote
    the trinity tells us that there are 3 persons but one in essence or nature and that is nature God.

    that is the true teachings of the apostles. although we cant find in the bible the word “trinity”,
    the meaning of it is the same teaching that the apostles have in mind.

    COULD YOU PRESENT 7 SEVEN SCRIPTURES THAT GIVE CLEAR TEACHING OF THE TRINITY ;BOY ???

    I HOPE YOU DO NOT RUN AWAY ,BOY,


    i dont need 7.
    here is the verse for that

    luke 3.22
    New International Version (©2011)
    and the Holy Spirit descended on him in bodily form like a dove. And a voice came from heaven: “You are my Son, whom I love; with you I am well pleased.”

    the holy spirit came down
    the father said you are my son.
    the son was in jordan

    #342366
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Okay jammin.

    Now what part of that verse says that these three things mentioned are all “persons in a Godhead”?

    Three things are mentioned together in scripture many times. But that doesn't mean all those groups of three are persons in some unity being.

    So tell us why the verse you quoted means such a thing.

    #342367
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (jammin @ April 19 2013,21:09)
    if i say GOD as one being, it refers to the nature/form.


    Really?  Didn't you just get done telling me that “being” refers to “person”?  :)

    jammin, a “form” is not a “being”.  Nor is “nature” a “being”.

    Let it go, dude.  Like I said, we all already know the nonsense you believe.  I was just having fun with the fact that you're too EMBARRASSED to ADMIT what you believe.

    Also, just to finish this “same nature” crap once and for all:

    Kerwin and his father share the same nature, not only because they are separate, individual PERSONS who are members of the same SPECIES, but also because they are separate, individual BEINGS who are members of the same SPECIES.

    Now unless ALL of those things also apply to Jesus and his Father, your “same nature” point has been nullified.  And since that is the case (and has been for months), you should probably stop repeating that same old tired stuff.  It makes you look pathetic – as if that's all you have.

    #342368
    jammin
    Participant

    mike,

    have you read my last post???
    do you have a memory gap?

    you should not eat pork and shrimp LOL

    ok ill say it again. i said it depends on how you use the word BEING.

    being meaning
    1. nature
    2. person
    3. others etc etc.

    do you understand that?

    #342369
    jammin
    Participant

    mike said: being is not a nature

    are you sure boy?
    LOL

    let me post the dictionary meaning of being
    c. essential nature
    d. essence

    do you see that? or you dont know how to read that.
    study hard sunshine LOL

    #342370
    jammin
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 20 2013,16:27)
    Okay jammin.

    Now what part of that verse says that these three things mentioned are all “persons in a Godhead”?

    Three things are mentioned together in scripture many times.  But that doesn't mean all those groups of three are persons in some unity being.

    So tell us why the verse you quoted means such a thing.


    is the son not a person?
    is the father not a person?

    #342372
    carmel
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ April 20 2013,10:05)
    carmel,

    Quote
    JESUS THE WORD  NEVER HAD A CARNAL FATHER.

    1) A human is conceived when a male and female gamete unite.
    2) A human is conceived when an parent embryo splits off a child embryo.
    3) A new combined human body is formed when to embryos combine.
    4) A new combined human body is formed when a partheonogenic embryo merges with a normal embryo.
    5) A human is conceived from a part of a man.
    6) A human is made from the ground.
    7) A human is cloned from a human cell.

    All seven of these are human and in some cases there is not a father of the flesh.

    Quote
    JESUS' FATHER WAS GOD THE MOST PURE SPIRIT! THE CREATOR

    The Father of each and every true believer is God; the Most Pure Spirit, the Creator.

    Quote
    TWO NATURES BOTH OF GOD'S SUBSTANCE

    All true believers have the flesh nature and the Spirit Nature.

    Quote
    IT WAS STILL GOD'S SPIRIT SUBSTANCE.

    God created all substances and therefore God existed before there was a spirit substance.

    Quote
    I AM FROM HEAVEN TOTALLY

    There is no “Totally” in the passage.  God did send him from above, just like he sent John, and John's baptism.

    Quote
    YOU ARE FROM BENEATH TOTALLY FROM HELLAND HELL IS THE CENTRE OF THE WORLD!

    “You are from beneath” is all I remember Jesus saying to the same Jews he called the children of Satan; who is the God of this world.

    Quote
    SO ANY TIME HE WANTED TO DIMATERIALIZE HIMSELF HE COULD SO IN A TWINKLE OF AN EYE!

    There are no accounts in Scripture of him Dematerializing.  Star Trek has acounts of humans doing so.

    Quote
    Do you accept the fact that Jesus the word was a GENUINE PARADOX IN EVERY SENSE?

    God is not a God of confusion so there is no paradoxes or conflicts in Scripture.

    ——————————————————————————-
    Consider that the gospel is teaching a new covenant and not a new religion.


    Quote
    [/QUOTE]

    Kerwin:

    you said:

    1) A human is conceived when a male and female gamete unite.

    JESUS NEVER HAD SUCH! SO HE IS NOT A MAN THE SAME AS WE ARE!

    2) A human is conceived when an parent embryo splits off a child embryo.

    JESUS NEVER HAD SUCH! SO HE IS NOT A MAN THE SAME AS WE ARE!

    3) A new combined human body is formed when to embryos combine.

    JESUS NEVER HAD SUCH! SO HE IS NOT A MAN THE SAME AS WE ARE!

    4) A new combined human body is formed when a partheonogenic embryo merges with a normal embryo.

    JESUS NEVER HAD SUCH! SO HE IS NOT A MAN THE SAME AS WE ARE!

    5) A human is conceived from a part of a man.

    JESUS NEVER HAD SUCH! SO HE IS NOT A MAN THE SAME AS WE ARE!

    6) A human is made from the ground.

    JESUS NEVER HAD SUCH! SO HE IS NOT A MAN THE SAME AS WE ARE!

    7) A human is cloned from a human cell.

    JESUS NEVER HAD SUCH! SO HE IS NOT A MAN THE SAME AS WE ARE!

    All seven of these are human and in some cases there is not a father of the flesh.

    WHEN IT COMES TO THE SON OF GOD, AND SON O MAN ALL THE ABOVE IS PURE NONSENSE

    NOW:

    [QUOTE]The Father of each and every true believer is God; the Most Pure Spirit, the Creator.

    WHO GAVE YOU THE RIGHT TO SAY SO!

    WHO MADE EVERY TRUE BELEIVER THE SON OF GOD!

    Quote
    All true believers have the flesh nature and the Spirit Nature.

    FROM FILTHY SATANIC EARTH

    Quote
    God created all substances and therefore God existed before there was a spirit substance

    NOT HIS OWN SPIRIT SUBSTANCE FOR SURE! THE WORD

    Quote
    There is no “Totally” in the passage. God did send him from above, just like he sent John, and John's baptism.

    I MADE AN EMPHASY TO MAKE SURE THAT :

    ONLY THE WORD CAME FROM HEAVEN TOTALLY DUE TO THE FACT THAT [ TWICE [./B] HE SAID HIMSELF SO

    [B]23And he said to them: You are from beneath, I am from above. You are of this world, I am not of this world.

    I AM FROM HEAVEN: IS ENOUGH TO CONFIRM THAT HE IS TOTALLY

    WHERE ARE YOU FROM ?

    WILL YOU INCLUDE THE WORD TOTALLY TO ANSWER MY QUESTION JUST IN CASE YOU ARE NOT TOTALLY FROM WHERE YOU ARE?

    John the Baptist was born of both human parents

    #342379
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (jammin @ April 20 2013,00:23)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 20 2013,16:27)
    Okay jammin.

    Now what part of that verse says that these three things mentioned are all “persons in a Godhead”?

    Three things are mentioned together in scripture many times.  But that doesn't mean all those groups of three are persons in some unity being.

    So tell us why the verse you quoted means such a thing.


    is the son not a person?
    is the father not a person?


    Yep. They are both persons. Now tell me how that verse says those two (or three) persons are the same being.

    #342380
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (jammin @ April 20 2013,00:16)
    ok ill say it again. i said it depends on how you use the word BEING.


    Naw…………. You don't need to bother saying it anymore, jammin. I've had my laugh for months about this. My stomach hurts from laughing so much about it.

    You point was shot down. End of story. Let's talk about that new scripture you just posted for a while. I need something different to laugh about.

    #342392
    kerwin
    Participant

    carmel,

    Quote
    WHEN IT COMES TO THE SON OF GOD, AND SON O MAN ALL THE ABOVE IS PURE NONSENSE

    Your answers are nonsense as Scripture explicitly calls Jesus human and declares he is the seed of David as of the flesh.  Scripture does not answer how Jesus was conceived a human but it does say he was conceived a human. Your argument that Jesus is not human because he has no human father is clearly false as not all humans have a father.

    Quote
    FROM FILTHY SATANIC EARTH

    God created the Earth and will free creation from its frustration.  He will also create a new heaven at that time.

    Quote
    NOT HIS OWN SPIRIT SUBSTANCE FOR SURE! THE WORD

    So you believe God did not create all things.

    Quote
    ONLY THE WORD CAME FROM HEAVEN TOTALLY DUE TO THE FACT THAT TWICE HE SAID HIMSELF SO.  

    He does not speak untruths and we know angels bodily come from heaven.  We also know every good and perfect gift comes from heaven.

    Quote
    John the Baptist was born of both human parents

    John the Baptist was a good and perfect gift that was sent from God, and God's throne is in heaven.

    Quote
    WHERE ARE YOU FROM ?

    Those that do the will of God are not from this World.

    #342397
    carmel
    Participant

    Quote
    Scripture does not answer how Jesus was conceived a human

    Kerwin,

    FIRST, I SENT THAT POST  BY MISTAKE!

    You might have noticed!

    Luke 1:And the angel answering, said to her: The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the most High shall overshadow thee. And therefore also the Holy which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God

    Matthew 1:17 Now the generation of Christ was in this wise. When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together,

    SHE WAS FOUND WITH CHILD, OF THE HOLY GHOST.

    Does the above satisfy your mentality?

    I SAID HE WAS A PARADOX:

    SO HE WAS BORN, AS SON OF MAN

    BUT HE WAS NOT BORN AS SON OF GOD SINCE  HIS ETERNAL SPIRIT IS OF THE FATHER!

    1 John 1:2 2For the life was manifested; and we have seen and do bear witness, and declare unto you

    THE LIFE ETERNAL, WHICH WAS WITH THE FATHER, and hath appeared to us:

    Quote
    Scripture explicitly calls Jesus human and declares he is the seed of David as of the flesh.  

    THE FLESH COUNTS FOR NOTHING REGARDING THE SON OF GOD SINCE GOD IS A SPIRIT AND HIS SON ALSO WAS  A FULL SPIRIT BEING!

    REGARDING THE SON OF MAN THE SEED OF DAVID WAS FOR HIS MOTHER MORE THEN FOR HIM, SINCE GOD AS THE WORD OPTED TO BE BORN OF A WOMAN, AND

    NOT THAT HE NEEDED A WOMAN,

    BUT DID SO ONLY TO RESPECT WORLDLY POCEDURE, AND TO REDEEM ALL HUMANS!

    SO HE WAS A PARADOX:

    HE WAS BORN OF A WOMAN,

    BUT HE WAS NOT BORN OF A NORMAL WOMAN

    Jeremiah 31:22How long wilt thou be dissolute in deliciousness, O wandering daughter?

    FOR THE LORD HAD CREATED A NEW THING UPON THE EARTH : A WOMAN SHALL COMPASS A MAN

    Quote
    Your argument that Jesus is not human because he has no human father is clearly false as not all humans have a father.

    SINCE YOU DID NOT UNDERSTAND ME:

    JESUS IS A HUMAN BEING BUT NOT OF THIS WORLDLIKE ALL OF US!

    HE CAME IN THIS WORLD!

    I SAID HE WAS A PARADOX SO HE WAS A MAN IN THIS WORLD BUT

    NOT A MAN OF THIS WORLD!IN EVERY SENSE!

    John 16:28 I came FORTH from the Father, and am come into the world:

    again I leave the world, and I go to the Father.

    NOW:TO BE PRECISE NO HUMAN SPERM CONCEIVED MARY

    HE WAS A PARADOX:

    NO HUMAN SPERM

    BUT THROUGH THE SPERM OF DAVID!

    ARE YOU HAPPY

    Quote
    John the Baptist was born of both human parents

    John the Baptist was a good and perfect gift that was sent from God, and God's throne is in heaven.


    BLA  BLA  BLA  BLA………

    HOW ABOUT THE ONE BEFORE HIM, WHO CREATED HIM?

    1 Colossians 16 ……………all things were created by him and in him

    John1:27The same is he that shall come after me, who is preferred before me: the latchet of whose shoe I am not worthy to loose.

    1:30 This is he, of whom I said: After me there cometh a man, who is preferred before me: because he was before me.

    TO BE PRECISE:

    JOHN WAS THE MOST PERFECT MAN WHO WAS BORN OF A WOMAN OF THIS WORLD!

    OBVIOUS:

    JESUS WAS NOT BORN OF A WOMAN, BUT OF A NEW UNIQUE WOMAN NOT OF THIS WORLD!

    SO JESUS WAS A PARADOX:

    HE WAS NOT THE MOST PERFECT MAN !  JOHN WAS!

    BUT HE WAS A THE MOST PERFECT MAN  AND REDEEMED HUMANITY

    Quote
    WHERE ARE YOU FROM ?

    Those that do the will of God are not from this World.

    Which scripture says this?

    Quote
    God created the Earth and will free creation from its frustration.  He will also create a new heaven at that time.

    SO YOU AGREE IT WAS NOT CREATED PERFECT BUT VERY GOOD ONLY

    Quote
    So you believe God did not create all things.

    I SAID HE WAS A APARADOX

    HE CREATED ALL THINGS

    BUT HE DIDN'T CREATE ALL THINGS

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles

    #342398
    carmel
    Participant

    [quote=terraricca,April 20 2013,13:24][/quote]

    Quote
    I HOPE YOU DO NOT RUN AWAY

    Terraricca,

    Did you ever realize that the Bible designates each of the three persons (Father, Son, Holy Spirit) as being Lord and God.?

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles

    #342399
    carmel
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 20 2013,10:37)
    [/quote]
    [QUOTE]

    Mike,

     I  MUST make it abundantly clear that any attempt to fully understand God's nature in purely worldly terms is an exercise in arrogant futility.

    Why futile? Perhaps for somewhat the same reasons that a  goldfish would undoubtedly FLUNK TRIGONOMETRY.

    So I beleive THAT IT IS A DISRESPECT, AN INSULT, AND A BLASPHEME IF THROUGH OUR CLAIMS WE LIMIT GOD! BY SAYING :

    ONE GOD WITHOUT BEING AWARE WHAT ARE THE TRUE DEFINITIONS OF BOTH GOD AND ONE!

    EXAMPLE:

    By His Spirit God adorned the heavens

    HOW COULD WE DEFINE SUCH SIMPLE STATEMENT SINCE:

    WE DO NOT KNOW :

    WHAT ACTUALLY GOD IS AS A BEING

    SINCE A SPIRIT BEING, WE DO NOT KNOW WHAT A SPIRIT IS WHEN REFERRING TO GOD, CONSIDERING THE FACTS THAT A SPIRIT IS NOT VISIBLE, AND THERE ARE MILLIONS AND MILLIONS OF DIFFERENT SPIRITS

    AND EVEN THESE SPIRITS NEVER SAW GOD, OR WILL EVER SEE GOD! ETERNALLY! SINCE THE ONLY BODY WHICH GOD HAS, AND WILL EVER HAVE IS JESUS' AND JESUS' HEAD IS GOD!

    AND ALSO WHAT THE WORD HIS IS ACTUALLY REFERRING TO!

    Isa 55.8-9

    “For My thoughts are not your thoughts, nor are your ways My ways,'' says the Lord. “For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are My ways higher than your ways, and My thoughts than your thoughts.”

    Job 26.13-14
    By His Spirit God adorned the heavens; His hand pierced the fleeing serpent. Indeed these are the mere edges of His ways, and how small a whisper we hear of Him! But the thunder of His power who can understand?

    Rom 11.33-36

    Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and His ways past finding out! For who has known the mind of the Lord? Or who has become His counselor? Or who has first given to Him and it shall be repaid to him? For of Him and through Him and to Him are all things, to whom be glory forever. Amen.

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles

    #342403
    jammin
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 20 2013,18:40)

    Quote (jammin @ April 20 2013,00:23)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 20 2013,16:27)
    Okay jammin.

    Now what part of that verse says that these three things mentioned are all “persons in a Godhead”?

    Three things are mentioned together in scripture many times.  But that doesn't mean all those groups of three are persons in some unity being.

    So tell us why the verse you quoted means such a thing.


    is the son not a person?
    is the father not a person?


    Yep.  They are both persons.  Now tell me how that verse says those two (or three) persons are the same being.


    are you and your father not the same being?

    #342404
    jammin
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 20 2013,18:42)

    Quote (jammin @ April 20 2013,00:16)
    ok ill say it again. i said it depends on how you use the word BEING.


    Naw…………. You don't need to bother saying it anymore, jammin.  I've had my laugh for months about this.  My stomach hurts from laughing so much about it.

    You point was shot down.  End of story.  Let's talk about that new scripture you just posted for a while.  I need something different to laugh about.


    why did you cut my post?

    that is a work of the devil. you are like your father mike LOL

    let me post it again

    mike,

    have you read my last post???
    do you have a memory gap?

    you should not eat pork and shrimp LOL

    ok ill say it again. i said it depends on how you use the word BEING.

    being meaning
    1. nature
    2. person
    3. others etc etc.

    do you understand that?

    #342405
    jammin
    Participant

    mike,

    you cant win on a debate. your points are too weak.
    you dont have scriptures to support your imagination boy.

    you are really a false teacher. it is very obvious LOL

    make your own bible and put all your imagination so that the next time you talk here you have verses to show us LOL:

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