John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

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Discussion

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  • #4883
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    LOGOS

    Strong's Number: 3056

    of speech
    a word, uttered by a living voice, embodies a conception or idea
    what someone has said
    a word
    the sayings of God
    decree, mandate or order
    of the moral precepts given by God
    Old Testament prophecy given by the prophets
    what is declared, a thought, declaration, aphorism, a weighty saying, a dictum, a maxim
    discourse
    the act of speaking, speech
    the faculty of speech, skill and practice in speaking
    a kind or style of speaking
    a continuous speaking discourse – instruction
    doctrine, teaching
    anything reported in speech; a narration, narrative
    matter under discussion, thing spoken of, affair, a matter in dispute, case, suit at law
    the thing spoken of or talked about; event, deed
    its use as respect to the MIND alone
    reason, the mental faculty of thinking, meditating, reasoning, calculating
    account, i.e. regard, consideration
    account, i.e. reckoning, score
    account, i.e. answer or explanation in reference to judgment
    relation, i.e. with whom as judge we stand in relation
    reason would
    reason, cause, ground
    In John, denotes the essential Word of God, Jesus Christ, the personal wisdom and power in union with God, his minister in creation and government of the universe, the cause of all the world's life both physical and ethical, which for the procurement of man's salvation put on human nature in the person of Jesus the Messiah, the second person in the Godhead, and shone forth conspicuously from His words and deeds.
    A Greek philosopher named Heraclitus first used the term Logos around 600 B.C. to designate the divine reason or plan which coordinates a changing universe. This word was well suited to John's purpose in John 1.

    #4884
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Logos means thought/word/expression and other things.

    John teaches us that the Logos was WITH God and the Logos was divine or godlike or of God. John also teaches us that the Logos took on flesh and we know that it was Yahshua who this is referring to.

    So was the Logos that took flesh created at the moment of Yashua's conception into this world. Well John teaches us that the Logos was WITH God the beginning (not in God at that point) and even Jesus said “Before Abraham was, I am”. At which time the Jews sought to stone him for saying that he existed before Abraham.

    John 8:57-59
    57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
    58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
    59 Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.

    So if the Logos is God's thought/reason/expression then that is talking about a concept/trait that exists within God. In the beginning was the reason. But it is the WITH that shows us that the Logos at some point was expressed or begotten to exist as a person, not as a thought within God.

    This also fits with the truth that Jesus is called the only begotten of the Father and that we are all created by God through the Logos. In another verse it actually says that all things were created through Christ. So there is no mistake here.

    Hebrews 11:3
    Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

    Colossians 1:16
    For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

    So did God create all things through the Logos or through Christ? Is there a contradicion here. Of course not, for Christ is the Logos. This is what John teaches us. The Logos was with God and then took on flesh and dwelt among us.

    Are we not all from God originally? Tainted with sin for sure, but all things have a beginning in God. He is the only one without a beginning. Where do we come from? Who thought/reasoned us before we come into being? God did. But then we became a unique person and we have the option to be WITH God too. We may even display patience and love, yet all these things are in God and from him. So it is with us to, that we exist in thought in God and then he expresses the thought and here we are.

    Same with truth. Truth is in God, it is part of his nature and character. But Jesus is called the Truth. So at what point was truth expressed in a person? Just as Jesus is the Logos, he is also the Truth and the Life. Yet all these things are in God too, but God has obviously expressed these concepts/traits in his son. Like Father like son as the saying goes.

    James 1:18
    He chose to give us birth through the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of all he created.

    So yes we are born though the Logos and Jesus is the vine and we are the branches. Who ever heard of the branches coming before the vine. The vine supports the branches and without the vine we could not exist to produce fruit.

    John 15:5
    I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

    #4888
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi WIT,
    You are right about the Hebrews 2 .It does not say Jesus “became” but ” was “made for a little while lower than the angels” There may be a difference but the greek covers “decrease” or “make lower”.

    As you say the original Psalm 8 covers man as well as the son of man [Jesus] specifically but the following context of verse 9 tells us it is Jesus who is being discussed.

    But the other interesting feature is that word used for “angels” in Ps 8 is ELOHIM. It adds another dimension of understanding as this means at least “godlike” “gods” or even “God”. Now we know men have always been lower than “God” and the sons of God so this part of the psalm must refer only to Jesus.

    So it tells us the Son of God WAS greater than the angels and other sons of God and he was “made for a little while lower” than them. This must mean then that he pre-existed his human birth on earth.

    As Phil 2 says
    ” Though he was in the form of God he did not deem equality with God something to be grasped at. Rather he emptied himself and took the form of a slave being born in the likeness of men..” No other human born has had to empty themselves before being born so this is not just a man but a preexistant being, The Son of God.

    #4901
    WhatIsTrue
    Participant

    T8,

    Quote
    Quote (WhatIsTrue @ Dec. 11 2004,17:27)
    Since you trust in “Jesus” and in Yahweh, and you believe neither to be a man, then is it safe to say that you trust in two gods?

    I trust in God and his son.

    Yes there are many gods, but for me there is one God the Father and Jesus is my Lord.

    When you are trusting in His son, are you trusting in a man, an angel, or a god?

    T8 and Nick,

    The bulk of this discussion comes down to a matter of foundation.  The real question is whether we are building our faith on the rock of Truth, or are we building our faith on the ever shifting sands of human philosophy.  So, in that spirit, let us get down to the root of the terms we are throwing around.

    Firstly, it seems that both of you hold principally to this definition of “The Logos”:

    Quote
    John teaches us that the Logos was WITH God and the Logos was divine or godlike or of God. John also teaches us that the Logos took on flesh and we know that it was Yahshua who this is referring to.

    I have often heard T8 describe this as the identity of the man “Jesus” (i.e. the soul of the Christ).  (I can only assume that you agree with this Nick.)  Yet, T8 says the following in his latest post:

    Quote
    Just as Jesus is the Logos, he is also the Truth and the Life . Yet all these things are in God too, but God has obviously expressed these concepts/traits in his son. Like Father like son as the saying goes.

    So now, from what I gather, “Jesus” is not just “The Logos”, he is the embodiment of everything that God is.  So, what exactly is his identity again?  Is he “the Word” in identity?  Is he “the Truth” in identity?  Is he “the Way” in identity?  Is he “the Life” in identity?  Or, is it possible that these are all simply attributes of the Messiah's purpose in creation?  (i.e.  To bring us God's Word, to reveal to us the Truth, to open up the Way, and to bring us the Life that can only come from God.)

    Secondly, you both keep tossing out the term “begotten”, assuming that the way you are using it is scriptural, (i.e. born directly of God before the world began).  Yet, Paul seems to define it differently:

    Acts 13:
    “32And we declare to you glad tidings–that promise which was made to the fathers. 33God has fulfilled this for us their children, in that He has raised up Jesus. As it is also written in the second Psalm: 'You are My Son, Today I have begotten You.'”

    Also note Pauls words here:

    Romans 1:
    “3Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh; 4And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:”

    (Note: This would be a perfect time for Paul to say that “Jesus” was born of God before the world began, since he is talking of the Christ's earthly and heavenly credentials.  Paul missed his opportunity to state this plainly here, but then again, so did all the writers of the bible.)

    So, where is your definition coming from?

    If we get our definitions straight, then we can start understanding the true meaning of all those verses you quoted.

    #4905
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi WIT,
    Dan 7.13
    “..And behold, with the clouds of heaven one like a son of man..” We know now that this represented Jesus but it is a descriptive term.
    So what is a “son of man”? A human being that we would all recognise. We are used to this terminology in the NT as Jesus often used it about himself to show and emphasise his human ancestry. Likewise the term “Son of God” emphasises his Godly ancestry and it excludes his human origin or it would be “son of God and man” surely.
    Now the verse in Romans surely does not mean Jesus became the Son of God when he was resurrected. Death is not birth.
    It says “..He promised beforehand through His prophets in the holy Scriptures concerning His Son …who was DECLARED with power to be the SON OF GOD by the resurrection of the dead, according to the Spirit of HOLINESS, Jesus Christ our Lord.”
    So Jesus was shown to be the promised messiah and also to be the Son of God.
    Again in Acts 13 God showed that Jesus was the Son of God by raising him from the dead. He was the HOLY one and was not allowed to decay,thus fulfilling scripture. Men are not holy. Bodies are not holy. The soul of Jesus, begotten Son of God is HOLY.
    You get confused about Jesus and His Father. Jesus was filled with the Father's Spirit.[Coll2.9].Jesus said he was the way, the truth and the life” no one comes to the Father except through me” So to experience the ability to do and know all these things we must be born again into the Son.

    #4906
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi WIT,
    Dan 7.13
    “..And behold, with the clouds of heaven one like a son of man..” We know now that this represented Jesus but it is a descriptive term.
    So what is a “son of man”? A human being that we would all recognise. We are used to this terminology in the NT as Jesus often used it about himself to show and emphasise his human ancestry. Likewise the term “Son of God” emphasises his Godly ancestry and it excludes his human origin or it would be “son of God and man” surely.
    Now the verse in Romans surely does not mean Jesus became the Son of God when he was resurrected. Death is not birth.
    It says “..He promised beforehand through His prophets in the holy Scriptures concerning His Son …who was DECLARED with power to be the SON OF GOD by the resurrection of the dead, according to the Spirit of HOLINESS, Jesus Christ our Lord.”
    So Jesus was shown to be the promised messiah and also to be the Son of God.
    Again in Acts 13 God showed that Jesus was the Son of God by raising him from the dead. He was the HOLY one and was not allowed to decay,thus fulfilling scripture. Men are not holy. Bodies are not holy. The soul of Jesus, begotten Son of God is HOLY.

    You get confused about Jesus and His Father. Jesus was filled with the Father's Spirit.[Coll2.9].Jesus said he was the way, the truth and the life” no one comes to the Father except through me” So to experience the ability to do and know all these things we must be born again into the Son.

    #4910
    WhatIsTrue
    Participant

    Nick,

    Quote
    So what is a “son of man”? A human being that we would all recognise. We are used to this terminology in the NT as Jesus often used it about himself to show and emphasise his human ancestry. Likewise the term “Son of God” emphasises his Godly ancestry and it excludes his human origin or it would be “son of God and man” surely.

    If the term “son of God” is exclusive to the messiah, and can not refer to men, then there are some OT writers who need some rebuking:

    I Chronicles 28:
    “5 Of all my sons-and the LORD has given me many-he has chosen my son Solomon to sit on the throne of the kingdom of the LORD over Israel. 6 He said to me: 'Solomon your son is the one who will build my house and my courts, for I have chosen him to be my son, and I will be his father. 7 I will establish his kingdom forever if he is unswerving in carrying out my commands and laws, as is being done at this time.'”

    Hosea 11:
    “1'When Israel was a child, I loved him, and out of Egypt I called my son. 2But the more I called Israel, the further they went from me.'”

    So, is Solomon God's son, or is Israel, or is “Jesus”?  Or, is scripture true, and they all are?

    Again, where is your definition coming from that to be God's son is to be someone who was born before the world began?

    Quote
    Now the verse in Romans surely does not mean Jesus became the Son of God when he was resurrected. Death is not birth.

    Revelations 1:
    “5and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth.”

    Colossians 1:
    “18And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy.”

    Death is not birth, as you have said, but ressurrection, according to scripture, is.

    Again, where is your concept of being “begotten before the world began” coming from?

    Quote
    The soul of Jesus, begotten Son of God is HOLY.

    You get confused about Jesus and His Father. Jesus was filled with the Father's Spirit.

    So is “Jesus” holy because he was filled with his Father's Spirit, or is he holy because his “soul is holy”?  (i.e.  Are you saying that “Jesus” is holy apart from the Father?)

    #4911
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Good stuff WIT,
    There are lots of sons of God.
    In Exodus 4.22 Israel is called God's firstborn son. Is that wrong? No. In a physical sense Adam received his life from God and in human terms he was first born. So his sons are Israel so they are included. The Hosea 11 verse applied to the sons of Adam but also, of course, was prophetic about Jesus and quoted in Mt 2.15.

    The Pharisees claimed Abraham was their father but I am sure that was not in the physical sense. There are other sons of God mentioned in Job ,Gen and the Psalms too. Likewise we can become sons of God if we are reborn into Jesus.

    Solomon had a human father, David, but was chosen by God to be an adopted son. The Israelites are called God's adopted sons in Rom 9.4. Likewise we too are adopted sons as shown in Gal 4.5, Eph 1.5, Rom 8.15 and 23.

    But Jesus is THE Son of God. Satan addressed him as that when testing him and the Word THE is associated with the term Son of God almost every time it occurs in the New Testament. Peter made that declaration about him. The apostles preaching about Jesus never called him the Son of Man, always THE Son of God.

    Jesus did not use the term often about himself but every time it was used everyone knew what THE Son of God meant. I am sure you agree this term is unique. He is also the ONLY BEGOTTEN SON as shown in Jn1.14, 3.16-18 and 1Jn 4.9.

    We are reborn through the death and resurrection of Jesus so Jesus is called the firstborn from the dead as he has first place in everything. But he was the Son of God before his death. The Father proclaimed so when Jesus was baptised and when he was transfigured on the mountain.

    Jesus is called the Holy One of God as shown in the previous post.In Rev 3.7 he is also called the Holy One. He was begotten of God, who is Holy, in the beginning. Do you say he was not holy? Was any fault found in Him? He was the true light who became flesh and dwelt amongst us. He shared our fleshly sinful nature too but he lived in that flesh as the holy Son of God.

    #4915
    WhatIsTrue
    Participant

    Nick,

    Quote
    Jesus did not use the term often about himself but every time it was used everyone knew what THE Son of God meant. I am sure you agree this term is unique. He is also the ONLY BEGOTTEN SON as shown in Jn1.14, 3.16-18 and 1Jn 4.9.

    Of course, the phrase “the Son of God” is unique to the Messiah, just as the Messiah is a unique figure in history.  My point in my previous post was simply that the title “son of God” was not exclusive to heavenly creatures.  Many men, the whole nation of Israel, in fact, were called just that.  So, the term “Son of God” by itself does not prove that “Jesus” was born before creation.

    By the way, the term “only begotten” is a construct of the KJV only.  If you look up the Greek, the actual word being used has nothing to do with being born at all.  It simply means unique.  Wherever you see the term “only begotten” in scripture, you can ignore the word “begotten” because it is not in the Greek.  (Check it out for yourself.)

    Now, I ask you again, where is your concept of being “begotten before the world began” coming from?  Where is it in scripture?

    #4916
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Thanks WIT,
    Certainly my study of the Greek and Hebrew suggests that what I would understand as “begotten” covers “produced alone” so the “only” is superfluous- meaning “alone”. However there are no competing claims to the Son of God as being begotten.
    All others were created with the help of the Son so he is the ONLY begotten Son anyway. If you take away the “ONLY” from the references in Jn3.16,18 and 1Jn 4.9 you are still left with the same meaning. Jesus was THE begotten Son and he happens to be the only one as well.
    Now Jesus is THE Son of God. In fact he often referred to himself just as THE SON [eg Jn 5.19,20,21,22,23,26]in relationship to the Father. A Son who has “life in himself” just as the Father does so he is not the Father in flesh or a body/shell of the Father' Spirit[Jn 5.26]. A Son who will “ascend to where he was before”-in heaven with the Father[[Jn 6.62].
    He was the firstborn Son who was “brought into the world” not “born into” it in the same way as he was born of Mary.[Heb 1.6] He is the firstborn of all creation[Coll1.15]so as creation greatly preceded his physical birth and so he did also.

    The Jews were familiar with the fact that ther were other sons of God , including themselves, who were created, from their study the OT. Yet he incensed them by claiming to be THE Son of God who was one with the Father. Why did that offend them unless they knew such a claim was to a pre existent life as well? He certainly claimed such a life saying before Abraham came he was.
    They tested him to prove he was the messiah but did they expect the Son of God as the messiah and one so meek and humble?To me it is plain that the title The Son of God says he is the logos who existed in the beginning with the Father prior to all of creation.

    #4919
    WhatIsTrue
    Participant

    Nick,

    Quote
    To me it is plain that the title The Son of God says he is the logos who existed in the beginning with the Father prior to all of creation.

    You are reading a lot into the title “the Son of God”, especially in light of how the concept of being a son of God is treated in the bible.  What you are essentially saying is that ALL other sons of God were created, but as soon as you add the article “the” in front of “son of God”, it changes the entire meaning of the phrase into “one born before creation”.  That's a huge leap, with no evidence.

    Quote
    Certainly my study of the Greek and Hebrew suggests that what I would understand as “begotten” covers “produced alone” so the “only” is superfluous- meaning “alone”. However there are no competing claims to the Son of God as being begotten.

    I have no idea how you came to this conclusion based on the a study of the Greek text, so I will show you what I studied to help clarify what I said in my previous post.  Perhaps you can do the same.

    The word “begotten” in Greek is Strong's #1080, “gennao”, as in the verse:

    Quote
    Acts 13:33:
    “that God has fulfilled this promise to our children in that He raised up Jesus, as it is also written in the second Psalm, 'YOU ARE MY SON; TODAY I HAVE BEGOTTEN YOU.'”

    None of the verses that you referenced contain this word.  They contain a completely different word:

    Quote
    John 1:14:
    “And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.”

    Quote
    John 1:18:
    “No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.”

    Quote
    John 3:16:
    “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.”

    Quote
    John 3:18:
    “He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.”

    Quote
    1 John 4:9:
    “By this the love of God was manifested in us, that God has sent His only begotten Son into the world so that we might live through Him.”

    Strong's 3439 is the Greek word “monogenes, which means “single of its kind, only”.  The Greek word for “begotten” is not in those texts.  So, the more accurate translation, as seen in most modern translations, is “only Son”, not “begotten Son”.  So, as far as I can tell, there is no scriptural evidence that the Son was “begotten” of God before his ressurrection.  Trinitarians inserted that language into some of the translations of the bible to support the idea that the Son is “eternally begotten”.

    Quote
    Now Jesus is THE Son of God. In fact he often referred to himself just as THE SON [eg Jn 5.19,20,21,22,23,26]in relationship to the Father.

    Of course, he is THE Son.  He is THE Messiah, God's chosen one.  There is no other, and that is why he is unique.

    Quote
    A Son who has “life in himself” just as the Father does so he is not the Father in flesh or a body/shell of the Father' Spirit[Jn 5.26]. A Son who will “ascend to where he was before”-in heaven with the Father[[Jn 6.62].

    I have no idea what is meant by “ascend to where he was before” in this passage, but since you clearly understand this passage, you can help me understand the verses just above it.

    Quote
    John 6:
    “53Jesus said to them, “I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. 55For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. 56Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in him. 57Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me. 58This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your forefathers ate manna and died, but he who feeds on this bread will live forever.””

    Is he speaking literally or figuratively?

    Quote
    He was the firstborn Son who was “brought into the world” not “born into” it in the same way as he was born of Mary.[Heb 1.6]

    You are reading a lot into the phrase “brought into the world”.  Should we do the same with the following verse?

    Quote
    John 1:
    “6There came a man who was sent from God; his name was John.”

    John was “sent from God” not “chosen by God” as one might expect of a mere mortal.  Does this mean that John pre-existed as well?  Or, is it possible that John was simply chosen by God, even before his birth, to fulfill a certain purpose?

    Quote
    He is the firstborn of all creation[Coll1.15]so as creation greatly preceded his physical birth and so he did also.

    Yes, he is the firstborn of all creation, but where and when was he born?  Verse 18 says that he was the “firstborn from among the dead”.  Of all the people who have died since the beginning of the world, he is the first one ressurrecte
    d, (born from among the dead), to eternal life.

    By the way, the phrase “firstborn of creation” would seem to imply that he was a part of it.

    Let's keep it simple, and look at your doctrine one building block at a time.  Let's start with the idea that “Jesus” was “begotten not made”, (a phrase borrowed from a creed), that he was born before creation.  What is your scriptural basis for that?

    #4920
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi WIT,
    Let's start with your understanding of 3439″ monogenes” .In my concordance it say from 3441 and 1096. “only begotten” or “only”
    So 3441 “monos”-alone- alone[31], by themselves[1] , even[1], just[2] ,mere[1], merely[2], only[18], only one[1] ,only thing[1] ,private [1]
    And 1096 ” ginomai”-to come into being, to happen, to become- there are many uses with the most common being:become[83]Happened[33] come[26] came[92] done[21] been [17] take place[17]arose[16]

    So how can you see this “monogenes” as “single of its kind, only”??? The word clearly covers coming into being as well?

    #4921
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Cont
    The understanding of the verses in Jn 6.53-58 has to relate to Jn 4.34and Jn 6.35.
    Yes Jesus was speaking figuratively here but often he explained these parables to his disciples. This time they did not ask for an explanation.
    Jn 6.60
    ” Many therefore of his disciples ,when they heard this said
    'This is a difficult statement ;who can listen to it?'

    So he challenged their faith with a literal fact-that he was to ascend back to heaven again, as they later witnessed in Acts 1.

    #4922
    NickHassan
    Participant

    cont
    How can “only Son” have any relevance if we all know there are many sons of God?
    You imply “The Son” and “The Messiah” are equivalent. Are they? Were the jews expecting “the Son”?  
    How do you see him as unique? Was he less than the angels in glory always before he ascended to heaven as that would suggest they  are more unique? Or is that uniqueness to you only as a man? Do you say he was the greatest man only?

    #4924
    NickHassan
    Participant

    cont,
    John was unique and he was sent from God. Though he avoided the question himself [Jn 1.25] Jesus implied he embodied the return of Elijah who lives in heaven. Mind you he also was a prophet and all prophets are sent from God
    [Lk 20.10f] as they are blessed with God's Spirit.
    Do you agree?

    #4925
    NickHassan
    Participant

    cont,
    We know' firstborn from the dead 'is not equivalent to 'firstborn of all creation' as all creation is not even born let alone reborn-animals,plants,angels and most humans.

    Firstborn is a symbolic term too as it implies highest ranking among the children-the first to share in any inheritance.

    Now we know that Jesus has the highest place in all things, creation and rebirth. So being called 'firstborn of all creation' speaks of this status but does not state that Jesus was created-do you see what I mean?

    Jesus is the first and the last, the alpha and omega.

    #4927
    NickHassan
    Participant

    cont
    1Peter 1.18f” Knowing that you were redeemed…with precious blood, as of a lamb, unblemished and spotless, the blood of Christ. For he was foreknown before the foundation of the World, but has appeared in these last times for the sake of you, who through him are believers in God, who raised him from the dead and gave him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God”
    John said of him ” behold the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world”
    Was he the lamb before his death? Was he filled with the Spirit of God before his death? We only are born again after baptism into his death but he was alive in God before then and is only called “firstborn of the dead” so he can have first place in all things.He was begotten of God prior to his death.

    #4929
    WhatIsTrue
    Participant

    Nick,

    OK.  Let's look at one more verse:

    Quote
    Hebrews 11:
    “17By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac, and he who had received the promises was offering up his only begotten son;”

    Now this is an interesting verse, because Abraham actually had TWO sons.  Ishmael was born of Hagar, and Isaac was born of Sarah.  Yet, the text refers to Abraham's “only begotten” son.  Isaac was Abraham's unqiue son, the one promised by God to Abraham and Sarah.  Clearly, the definition “single of its kind” is the only one that makes sense in this verse.  It is my supposition that it is the real meaning of the Greek word “monogenes”.

    And yes, being chosen by God to redeem all of mankind qualifies Yeshua as a “unique” man in history.  As far as I can tell, there is not going to be a second Messiah.

    Now, we can argue about the meanings of Greek words, and figurative phrases in John into eternity – (Why is it always John's gospel that produces such confusion?  Trinitarians seem to get much of their doctrine from John's gospel as well.) – but as I have tried to state many times, one has to start with a solid foundation before one can build upon it.  Let's talk about your foundation.

    If “Jesus” is not “just a man”, and is certainly not an angel, does that not mean that he is a god?  If so, which god are you serving, “Jesus” or Yahweh?  Or, are you serving two gods?

    Quote
    Isaiah 45:
    5 I am the LORD , and there is no other; apart from me there is no God. I will strengthen you, though you have not acknowledged me,

    18 For this is what the LORD says- he who created the heavens, he is God; he who fashioned and made the earth, he founded it; he did not create it to be empty, but formed it to be inhabited- he says: 'I am the LORD , and there is no other.'”

    #4933
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi WIT
    The word mono-genes, even in English suggests “Generated by one” surely so please relook at this.

    I serve the God of the Abraham, Moses and Jesus. I am baptised into the body of Christ so am a part of that body on earth. I serve the Head of the Body-Jesus. I do not worship Jesus as I am in him. He has divine nature and is worthy of worship by angels and natural men and accepted that worship though he did not seek it but led others to worship his Father. He is, though, The Son of God, subject to his God, the Father.

    Surely you are not now questioning the validity of John's gospel as well? I agree he had a special gift of spiritual wisdom that showed  he knew the origins of Jesus and he expressed them more clearly and deeply than his peers. But Peter and Paul also showed his origins and the other gospels showed who he was by what he did.

    You have taken the Hebrews verse out of context. Look at the preceding and following words.

    “..By faith Abraham, when put to the test, offered up Isaac;he who had received the promises was ready to sacrifice his ONLY son, of whom it was said 'through Isaac shall your descendants be called' “

    Isaac was the ONLY son that Abraham was to have his promised descendants called.

    ONLY is a valid use of this word.

    #4934
    NickHassan
    Participant

    What about talking about your foundation too WIT?
    You say Jesus is not just a man so what is he to you?

    Even the Muslims say he was a great prophet.

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