John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 11,781 through 11,800 (of 26,009 total)
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  • #328473
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 16 2013,18:00)
    Mike,

    1) John wrote of both the Word and the Word of life.


    John wrote of “the Word of God” in Revelation 19.  From the context, we can be sure that the person named “the Word of God” is Jesus Christ.

    John later wrote of “the Word [of God]” in his gospel.  Again, from the context, we can be sure that the person named “the Word” in that book is Jesus Christ.

    John later wrote of “the Word of Life” in 1 John 1.  And once again, from the context, we can be sure that the person named “the Word of Life” in that letter is Jesus Christ.

    Kerwin, you have put all the puzzle pieces together in Revelation 19, and have figured out that “the Word of God” is Jesus Christ.

    You have not put them together in John and 1 John yet, mainly because your PERSONAL DOCTRINE is fighting to keep you from finishing those two puzzles.  I have faith that God will eventually lead you to finish those puzzles like you finished the Revelation puzzle.

    Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 16 2013,18:00)
    2) Jesus may be called by the name of the Word previous to the Supper of the Great God.


    Fantastic.  jammin will be happy to know that you've retracted your original claim that “the Word of God” is strictly a FUTURE name of Jesus Christ. :)

    #328475
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (jammin @ Jan. 15 2013,18:48)
    did you read my explanation about mal 3.6?


    James 1:17 NET ©
    All generous giving and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or the slightest hint of change.

    #328476
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Psalm 102:27 NIV ©
    But you remain the same, and your years will never end.

    #328536
    jammin
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 17 2013,12:24)

    Quote (jammin @ Jan. 15 2013,18:48)
    did you read my explanation about mal 3.6?


    James 1:17 NET ©
    All generous giving and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or the slightest hint of change.


    LOL

    this is very obvious mike. it only tells that you do not know the the meaning of mal 3.6
    LOL

    why dont you accept the truth that you do not know the meaning of mal 3.6 LOL

    #328537
    jammin
    Participant

    Quote (Ed J @ Jan. 17 2013,12:02)

    Quote (jammin @ Jan. 17 2013,11:27)

    Quote (Ed J @ Jan. 17 2013,06:46)

    Quote (jammin @ Jan. 16 2013,11:48)

    Quote (Ed J @ Jan. 15 2013,20:18)

    Quote (jammin @ Jan. 15 2013,19:37)

    Quote (Ed J @ Jan. 15 2013,17:17)

    Hi Jammin,

    Are you suggesting that “I Change Not”
    exclusively means I don't change my mind?
      (Yes  or  No)

    God bless
    Ed J


    i know you do not know how to read the context of the bible.


    Hi Jammin,

    Now that we established what my question really is.
    And now that you're through with giving me a speech…     WILL YOU ANSWER MY QUESTION?

    God bless
    Ed J


    do you now agree that your explanation in mal 3.6 is not really in the bible?
    did you read my explanation about mal 3.6?


    Hi Jammin,

    Is your answer “Yes” then?      …or “No”?

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org


    i cant answer a yes or no


    I can, the answer is “no”!


    how can you say no if you do not know the meaning of mal 3.6? LOL

    poor ed

    you always do this. altering the word of God.
    like what you are saying in john 1.1. you said the Word is the HS but no version supports your imagination. also, commentaries do not support your imagination LOL
    and now you are doing it again in mal 3.6 LOL

    for God sake ed. the year is 2013 and i think you should start changing your attitude boy LOL

    do not alter the word of God. do not put your imagination and say to people that this is the correct meaning of the verse

    you must know how to read the context.

    #328538
    jammin
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 17 2013,11:35)

    Quote (jammin @ Jan. 17 2013,06:23)

    Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 17 2013,07:13)

    Quote (Ed J @ Jan. 17 2013,01:44)

    Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 16 2013,06:05)

    Quote (jammin @ Jan. 15 2013,14:45)

    New International Version (NIV)


    Jammin,

    You are doing better on you choice of translations.


    Hi Wakeup,

    Why would Jammin be doing better choosing a corrupt translation?

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org


    Ed J.

    It is better than either a thought to thought translation or one full of commentary when both are by those that are not carried along by the Spirit.

    I presently use the KJV and know it is far from being free of error.  Translator bias is expected and I do not follow the teachings of the Anglican Church, nor do I acknowledge the Royal of England as the head of God's church.

    The Textus Receptus is more accurate than the KJV and some of it is translated from the Latin Vulgate.


    bias?? you said bias bec it does not support your view. even commentaries do not support your views. you know why? bec your doctrine is not in the bible.

    therefore, you are just making stories. LOL
    your doctrine is full of stories.
    how can people believe to those people like you saying words that are not in the bible.

    you are blind kerwin. i gave a word for word verse for you in the bible and yet you dont believe that truth
    may God open your eyes


    Jammin,

    I stated bias because bias is the norm, of which I know of no exception.

    I state that certain people lack knowledge because their words display a lack of knowledge.

    Anyone who tells me Jehovah changed and became able to be tempted by sin does not know what they are talking about.

    God compels me to look into matters so as to become more certain.


    so you are full of wisdom huh? LOL

    i cant imagine a person who is full of wisdom like you is talking about words that are NOT IN THE BIBLE.

    you can say that kerwin if you can read your imagination in the bible. you must prove your doctrine. i give you verse. i give you a word for word in the bible and yet you do not accept those facts.
    may God open your eyes

    #328640
    kerwin
    Participant

    Jammin,

    Quote
    so you are full of wisdom huh? LOL

    i cant imagine a person who is full of wisdom like you is talking about words that are NOT IN THE BIBLE.

    you can say that kerwin if you can read your imagination in the bible. you must prove your doctrine. i give you verse. i give you a word for word in the bible and yet you do not accept those facts. may God open your eyes

    You make accusation but fail to consider that it is indeed written that God does not change nor is God tempted by evil.

    Those that believe he does are either ignorant or corrupt and so prone to misinterpret things. About such men it is said “adders' poison is under their lips.”

    To know these things is a sign of Wisdom.

    #328646
    Ed J
    Participant

    Quote (jammin @ Jan. 17 2013,19:44)

    Quote (Ed J @ Jan. 17 2013,12:02)

    Quote (jammin @ Jan. 17 2013,11:27)

    Quote (Ed J @ Jan. 15 2013,17:17)
    Hi Jammin,

    Are you suggesting that “I Change Not”
    exclusively means I don't change my mind?
      (Yes  or  No)

    God bless
    Ed J


    i cant answer a yes or no


    I can, the answer is “no”!


    how can you say no if you do not know the meaning of mal 3.6? LOL


    Hi Jammin,

    Not exclusively from Malachi 3:6, but there are others as well; here is another:
    God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent:
     hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?” (Num 23:19)

    And just in case you didn't know, “The Son of Man” is Jesus.
    So GOD doesn't change, and HE isn't “The Son of Man”.
    Those FACTS do not sit well with your doctrine.

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
    PS. I do know the meaning of Malachi 3:6.

    #328659
    carmel
    Participant

    [quote=Ed J,Jan. 18 2013,05:17][/quote]

    Quote
    And just in case you didn't know, “The Son of Man” is Jesus.
    So GOD doesn't change, and HE isn't “The Son of Man”.

    Edj,

    WRONG:

    JESUS IS NOT SON OF MAN

    BUT

    SON OF MAN AND SON OF GOD!!!

    OK???

    THAT MEANS THAT GOD IS NOT MAN,

    BUT MAN/GOD IN JESUS' SOUL

    THAT MEANS THAT GOD IS NOT SON OF MAN,

    BUT SON OF MAN AND SON OF GOD IN JESUS' SOUL.

    SO:

    God is not a man, that he should lie; SO HE SENT HIS OWN SON TO ESTABLISH

    THE TRUTH, MAN/GOD

    neither the son of man, that he should repent: SO HE SENT HIS OWN SON TO ESTABLISH

    THE SON OF MAN AND SON OF GOD SINLESS

    THEREFORE:

    hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?” (Num 23:19)

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles

    #328662
    Ed J
    Participant

    Hi Charles,

    JESUS IS NOT [JUST THE] SON OF MAN

    BUT

    [THE] SON OF MAN AND [THE] SON OF GOD!!!

    In this, I agree.

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

    #328674
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (carmel @ Jan. 17 2013,14:58)
    God is not a man, that he should lie; SO HE SENT HIS OWN SON TO ESTABLISH

    THE TRUTH, MAN/GOD


    Charles,

    Why don't you believe the words you yourself just wrote?

    God is not a man, SO HE SENT HIS OWN SON.

    Get it? God Himself did not send God Himself. He sent HIS SON.

    Jesus is the SON OF God – not God Himself.

    I also agree with you and Ed that Jesus is both the “Son of Man”, and the “Son of God”.

    #328718
    jammin
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 18 2013,04:35)
    Jammin,

    Quote
    so you are full of wisdom huh? LOL

    i cant imagine a person who is full of wisdom like you is talking about words that are NOT IN THE BIBLE.

    you can say that kerwin if you can read your imagination in the bible. you must prove your doctrine. i give you verse. i give you a word for word in the bible and yet you do not accept those facts. may God open your eyes

    You make accusation but fail to consider that it is indeed written that God does not change nor is God tempted by evil.

    Those that believe he does are either ignorant or corrupt and so prone to misinterpret things. About such men it is said “adders' poison is under their lips.”

    To know these things is a sign of Wisdom.


    you do not know those things kerwin. in fact, what you are saying are just stories. they cant be read in the bible.
    what i say to you is written, but you dont like to believe the truth

    #328719
    jammin
    Participant

    Quote (Ed J @ Jan. 18 2013,05:17)

    Quote (jammin @ Jan. 17 2013,19:44)

    Quote (Ed J @ Jan. 17 2013,12:02)

    Quote (jammin @ Jan. 17 2013,11:27)

    Quote (Ed J @ Jan. 15 2013,17:17)
    Hi Jammin,

    Are you suggesting that “I Change Not”
    exclusively means I don't change my mind?
      (Yes  or  No)

    God bless
    Ed J


    i cant answer a yes or no


    I can, the answer is “no”!


    how can you say no if you do not know the meaning of mal 3.6? LOL


    Hi Jammin,

    Not exclusively from Malachi 3:6, but there are others as well; here is another:
    God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent:
     hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?” (Num 23:19)

    And just in case you didn't know, “The Son of Man” is Jesus.
    So GOD doesn't change, and HE isn't “The Son of Man”.
    Those FACTS do not sit well with your doctrine.

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
    PS. I do know the meaning of Malachi 3:6.


    thanks for saying that you do not understand mal 3.6
    it only proves you are a false teacher.

    now you are using num 23.19
    did the verse say GOD WILL NOT BECOME HUMAN or GOD IS NOT A MAN?

    those two sentences are different boy. go back to school and study english

    #328721
    jammin
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 18 2013,10:02)

    Quote (carmel @ Jan. 17 2013,14:58)
    God is not a man, that he should lie; SO HE SENT HIS OWN SON TO ESTABLISH

    THE TRUTH, MAN/GOD


    Charles,

    Why don't you believe the words you yourself just wrote?

    God is not a man, SO HE SENT HIS OWN SON.

    Get it?  God Himself did not send God Himself.  He sent HIS SON.

    Jesus is the SON OF God – not God Himself.

    I also agree with you and Ed that Jesus is both the “Son of Man”, and the “Son of God”.


    Christ is not the father. of course that is what the bible says.
    but Christ is also God by nature just like his father.

    #328723
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (jammin @ Jan. 18 2013,12:12)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 18 2013,10:02)

    Quote (carmel @ Jan. 17 2013,14:58)
    God is not a man, that he should lie; SO HE SENT HIS OWN SON TO ESTABLISH

    THE TRUTH, MAN/GOD


    Charles,

    Why don't you believe the words you yourself just wrote?

    God is not a man, SO HE SENT HIS OWN SON.

    Get it?  God Himself did not send God Himself.  He sent HIS SON.

    Jesus is the SON OF God – not God Himself.

    I also agree with you and Ed that Jesus is both the “Son of Man”, and the “Son of God”.


    Christ is not the father. of course that is what the bible says.
    but Christ is also God by nature just like his father.


    What then you mean is that Christ his also A God right ???

    #328727
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (jammin @ Jan. 18 2013,12:12)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 18 2013,10:02)

    Quote (carmel @ Jan. 17 2013,14:58)
    God is not a man, that he should lie; SO HE SENT HIS OWN SON TO ESTABLISH

    THE TRUTH, MAN/GOD


    Charles,

    Why don't you believe the words you yourself just wrote?

    God is not a man, SO HE SENT HIS OWN SON.

    Get it?  God Himself did not send God Himself.  He sent HIS SON.

    Jesus is the SON OF God – not God Himself.

    I also agree with you and Ed that Jesus is both the “Son of Man”, and the “Son of God”.


    Christ is not the father. of course that is what the bible says.
    but Christ is also God by nature just like his father.


    Jammin,

    Those words are just confusion as there is only one God. You are there either claiming:

    1) The Father is Yawheh and the Son is not.
    2) The Father are both titles of Yawheh.
    3) That 2=1 otherwise 2 Yawhehs = 1 Yawheh.

    The third is what you seem to be claiming and that is just bad math; and so confusion.

    #328728
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (jammin @ Jan. 18 2013,12:06)

    Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 18 2013,04:35)
    Jammin,

    Quote
    so you are full of wisdom huh? LOL

    i cant imagine a person who is full of wisdom like you is talking about words that are NOT IN THE BIBLE.

    you can say that kerwin if you can read your imagination in the bible. you must prove your doctrine. i give you verse. i give you a word for word in the bible and yet you do not accept those facts. may God open your eyes

    You make accusation but fail to consider that it is indeed written that God does not change nor is God tempted by evil.

    Those that believe he does are either ignorant or corrupt and so prone to misinterpret things. About such men it is said “adders' poison is under their lips.”

    To know these things is a sign of Wisdom.


    you do not know those things kerwin. in fact, what you are saying are just stories. they cant be read in the bible.
    what i say to you is written, but you dont like to believe the truth


    Jammin,

    If you know God you do not actually have to read these things to know they are true. None the less they are written in Scripture. I just do not see it beneficial to point at them as you either believe them or not. Perhaps at a different time the Spirit will compel me to look but it was Bereans who with nobility for searching Scripture and not Paul.

    #328730
    jammin
    Participant

    Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 18 2013,18:12)

    Quote (jammin @ Jan. 18 2013,12:12)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 18 2013,10:02)

    Quote (carmel @ Jan. 17 2013,14:58)
    God is not a man, that he should lie; SO HE SENT HIS OWN SON TO ESTABLISH

    THE TRUTH, MAN/GOD


    Charles,

    Why don't you believe the words you yourself just wrote?

    God is not a man, SO HE SENT HIS OWN SON.

    Get it?  God Himself did not send God Himself.  He sent HIS SON.

    Jesus is the SON OF God – not God Himself.

    I also agree with you and Ed that Jesus is both the “Son of Man”, and the “Son of God”.


    Christ is not the father. of course that is what the bible says.
    but Christ is also God by nature just like his father.


    What then you mean is that Christ his also A God right ???


    of course. are not you A MAN by nature?

    #328731
    jammin
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 18 2013,19:23)

    Quote (jammin @ Jan. 18 2013,12:12)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 18 2013,10:02)

    Quote (carmel @ Jan. 17 2013,14:58)
    God is not a man, that he should lie; SO HE SENT HIS OWN SON TO ESTABLISH

    THE TRUTH, MAN/GOD


    Charles,

    Why don't you believe the words you yourself just wrote?

    God is not a man, SO HE SENT HIS OWN SON.

    Get it?  God Himself did not send God Himself.  He sent HIS SON.

    Jesus is the SON OF God – not God Himself.

    I also agree with you and Ed that Jesus is both the “Son of Man”, and the “Son of God”.


    Christ is not the father. of course that is what the bible says.
    but Christ is also God by nature just like his father.


    Jammin,

    Those words are just confusion as there is only one God.  You are there either claiming:

    1) The Father is Yawheh and the Son is not.
    2) The Father are both titles of Yawheh.
    3) That 2=1 otherwise 2 Yawhehs = 1 Yawheh.

    The third is what you seem to be claiming and that is just bad math; and so confusion.


    you are confused bec you dont know the real God,.

    of course the father is not the son. did i say that the father is also the son?
    of course not LOL

    the father is not the son
    the son is not the father

    BUT THEY HAVE THE SAME NATURE, GOD.

    example,

    you and your father. you are not your father. but you have the same nature, MAN.

    one nature< MAN.
    you are not alien and man. you are a MAN. you only have one nature and that is your human nature.

    Christ and his father are two in numbers. two persons but one in essence or narture, God.
    that is the true teachings of the bible.

    you can read john 1.1-14 phil 2.6
    read it ask knowledge from God. may God open your eyes

    #328751
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (jammin @ Jan. 18 2013,14:51)
    you are confused bec you dont know the real God,.

    of course the father is not the son. did i say that the father is also the son?
    of course not LOL

    the father is not the son
    the son is not the father

    BUT THEY HAVE THE SAME NATURE, GOD.

    example,

    you and your father. you are not your father. but you have the same nature, MAN.

    one nature< MAN.
    you are not alien and man. you are a MAN. you only have one nature and that is your human nature.

    Christ and his father are two in numbers. two persons but one in essence or nature, God.
    that is the true teachings of the bible.

    you can read john 1.1-14 phil 2.6
    read it ask knowledge from God. may God open your eyes


    Jammin,

    Let us use you example of myself and my father being of the same nature.
    Let us also use your definition of nature being equal to kind.

    I am the same kind as my father; but then there is more than one of our kind.

    There is only one of Yahweh's kind and Yawheh is that one.  There is simply no place for Jesus to be a second one of Yahweh's kind.  You are claiming 2=2 in a place that only has room for 1. That is confusion.

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