John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 11,701 through 11,720 (of 26,009 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #327132
    Ed J
    Participant

    Hi Kerwin,

    Some are just unwilling to reason together. (ref. Isaiah 1:18)

    Your brother
    in Christ, Jesus.
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

    #327139
    jammin
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 09 2013,17:37)
    Jammin,

    Quote
    dont you read in the bible that he took the  nature of a servant? he became human.

    you should read first your bible before making any conclusions.
    actually, it does not tell in the verse that he is not God.
    the bible says he is God.
    john 1.1-14
    phil 2.6
    john 20.28
    and many more

    I have read my bible and I believe it when it states that God cannot be tempted, nor can he sin.
    Since I believe it I can assure you anyone who is tempted even as is common to man is not God.
    Jesus was tempted even as is common to man and therefore is not Yahweh.

    I know what men have told you and insisted you must believe but it does not change the fact that God, being the one true God, cannot be tempted by evil, and Jesus was, and therefore is not the one true God.

    I already covered John 1:1-14, Philippians 2:, John 20:28, and many more and showed how they are at best hard to understand passages that those who are lacking knowledge or who are corrupt misinterpret.   It is by the power of Yahweh that we gain the understanding to spot these snares and the wisdom to avoid and escape them.


    are you sure you are reading your bible?
    maybe you dont understand what paul said

    let me post the verse
    Philippians 2:6-7

    New Living Translation (NLT)

    6 Though he was God,[a]
    he did not think of equality with God
    as something to cling to.
    7 Instead, he gave up his divine privileges[b];
    he took the humble position of a slave[c]
    and was born as a human being.
    When he appeared in human form,[d]

    do you understand what verse says?
    he gave up his DIVINE PRIVILEGES..
    was born as a human being
    WHEN HE APPEARED IN HUMAN FORM

    do you understand that? read it over and over again.
    may God open your eyes

    #327145
    kerwin
    Participant

    Jammin,

    Quote
    are you sure you are reading your bible?
    maybe you dont understand what paul said

    let me post the verse
    Philippians 2:6-7

    New Living Translation (NLT)

    6 Though he was God,[a]
      he did not think of equality with God
      as something to cling to.
    7 Instead, he gave up his divine privileges[b];
      he took the humble position of a slave[c]
      and was born as a human being.
    When he appeared in human form,[d]

    do you understand what verse says?
    he gave up his DIVINE PRIVILEGES..
    was born as a human being
    WHEN HE APPEARED IN HUMAN FORM

    do you understand that? read it over and over again.
    may God open your eyes

    The NLT is a poor translation as the translators also interpreted, even more that normal.  There is nothing that can be translated to “divine privileges” though “emptied himself” can be interpreted that way.

    Let us say that God, of who there is but one, does evil and gives up his divine privilege of not being tempted by evil.  At that point there is no longer the God because there is but one God and that God, in order to be God, cannot be tempted by evil.

    In conclusion you infer that Jesus is not Yawheh because he has no divine privileges while at the same time you explicitly claim he is Yawheh and so break your own words.

    #327147
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (Ed J @ Jan. 09 2013,12:54)
    Hi Kerwin,

    Some are just unwilling to reason together.  (ref. Isaiah 1:18)

    Your brother
    in Christ, Jesus.
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org


    Ed. J.,

    I hear you.

    #327149
    Ed J
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 09 2013,20:14)

    Quote (Ed J @ Jan. 09 2013,12:54)
    Hi Kerwin,

    Some are just unwilling to reason together.  (ref. Isaiah 1:18)

    Your brother
    in Christ, Jesus.
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org


    Ed. J.,

    I hear you.


    2 Tim 3:7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

    #327191
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 09 2013,17:37)
    I already covered John 1:1-14, Philippians 2:, John 20:28, and many more and showed how they are at best hard to understand passages that those who are lacking knowledge or who are corrupt misinterpret.   It is by the power of Yahweh that we gain the understanding to spot these snares and the wisdom to avoid and escape them.


    Kerwin………….> Amen to that brother. It takes the Spirit of Truth to see those errors on that i agree.

    peace and love to you and yours………………………………..gene

    #327247
    jammin
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 09 2013,20:13)
    Jammin,

    Quote
    are you sure you are reading your bible?
    maybe you dont understand what paul said

    let me post the verse
    Philippians 2:6-7

    New Living Translation (NLT)

    6 Though he was God,[a]
      he did not think of equality with God
      as something to cling to.
    7 Instead, he gave up his divine privileges[b];
      he took the humble position of a slave[c]
      and was born as a human being.
    When he appeared in human form,[d]

    do you understand what verse says?
    he gave up his DIVINE PRIVILEGES..
    was born as a human being
    WHEN HE APPEARED IN HUMAN FORM

    do you understand that? read it over and over again.
    may God open your eyes

    The NLT is a poor translation as the translators also interpreted, even more that normal.  There is nothing that can be translated to “divine privileges” though “emptied himself” can be interpreted that way.

    Let us say that God, of who there is but one, does evil and gives up his divine privilege of not being tempted by evil.  At that point there is no longer the God because there is but one God and that God, in order to be God, cannot be tempted by evil.

    In conclusion you infer that Jesus is not Yawheh because he has no divine privileges while at the same time you explicitly claim he is Yawheh and so break your own words.


    do you understand what phil 2.6-7 said?

    you said:In conclusion you infer that Jesus is not Yawheh because he has no divine privileges while at the same time you explicitly claim he is Yawheh and so break your own words.

    did i say that?

    the bible said that God became human. phil 2.6
    cant you accept that? you are saying NLT is a poor translation bec it does not support your imagination. commentaries also agree that God (not the father but the son) became human.

    let me again phil 2.6 but i will not use NLT this time
    Philippians 2:6-7

    Amplified Bible (AMP)

    6 Who, although being essentially one with God and in the form of God [[a]possessing the fullness of the attributes which make God God], did not [b]think this equality with God was a thing to be eagerly grasped [c]or retained,

    7 But stripped Himself [of all privileges and [d]rightful dignity], so as to assume the guise of a servant (slave), in that He became like men and was born a human being.

    do you understand that?im sure you will make an excuse again bec that verse does not support your imagination LOL

    #327249
    jammin
    Participant

    let me post a commentary
    Geneva Study Bible

    Who, being in the {d} form of God, {e} thought it not robbery to be {f} equal with God:

    (d) Such as God himself is, and therefore God, for there is no one in all parts equal to God but God himself.

    (e) Christ, that glorious and everlasting God, knew that he might rightfully and lawfully not appear in the base flesh of man, but remain with majesty fit for God: yet he chose rather to debase himself.

    (f) If the Son is equal with the Father, then is there of necessity an equality, which Arrius that heretic denies: and if the Son is compared to the Father, then is there a distinction of persons, which Sabellius that heretic denies.

    see kerwin, you cant accept that truth bec what you are saying is a false doctrine. the father has a SON and his son is like him.
    he is God.

    #327257
    Ed J
    Participant

    Hi Jammin,

    More words of men, huh? Men's words
    are what cause people to believe error, what
    makes you think that men's words are truth anyway?

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

    #327265
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (jammin @ Jan. 08 2013,19:29)
    thanks for the answer. you believe that you are Equal to your father.

    then accept christ is equal to his father.


    I do believe that the anointed one OF our ONE and ONLY God is equal to his Father in many ways.  They have both existed from before the world was created.  They are both spirit beings.  I'm sure I could list a hundred other things in which the Son OF God is equal to the God who begot him before the ages.

    But then, I could also list a hundred ways WE are equal to the God in whose image we were created.  Both God and humans can communicate through spoken language.  We are equal to God in that respect.  Both God and humans can see.  We are equal to our God in that respect.  Both God and humans have souls.  We are equal to our God in that respect.

    So, I and my father have the same nature, which is “flesh nature”.  Jesus and his Father have the same nature, which is “spirit nature”.  And just as I am equal to my father in that we are both flesh, Jesus is equal to his Father in that they are both spirit beings.  All the other spirit sons of God are equal to their Father in that same way. But that doesn't make any of those spirit sons of God the very God they are equal to in nature.

    jammin, talking to you is such a waste of time.  I have one question for you:

    John 20:17
    I am returning to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.

    If the Father of Jesus IS your Father, why isn't the God of Jesus your God?

    #327266
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (jammin @ Jan. 09 2013,18:23)
    let me post a commentary
    Geneva Study Bible

    Who, being in the {d} form of God…………

    (d) Such as God himself is, and therefore God, for there is no one in all parts equal to God but God himself.


    And what scripture says the SERVANT of God is equal to God “in all parts”?  I believe your commentator is adding things into the scripture. Not only that, I believe he might have been drunk when he made the claim that no one could be EQUAL TO God but God Himself. Those words don't even make sense.

    jammin, can you be EQUAL TO yourself? YES or NO?

    Do you believe that God is a BEING, complete with a soul?  YES or NO?

    #327321
    jammin
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 10 2013,12:10)

    Quote (jammin @ Jan. 09 2013,18:23)
    let me post a commentary
    Geneva Study Bible

    Who, being in the {d} form of God…………

    (d) Such as God himself is, and therefore God, for there is no one in all parts equal to God but God himself.


    And what scripture says the SERVANT of God is equal to God “in all parts”?  I believe your commentator is adding things into the scripture.  Not only that, I believe he might have been drunk when he made the claim that no one could be EQUAL TO God but God Himself.  Those words don't even make sense.

    jammin, can you be EQUAL TO yourself?  YES or NO?

    Do you believe that God is a BEING, complete with a soul?  YES or NO?


    do you understand the sentence? LOL

    i think you dont.
    you are asking me if i can be equal to myself. LOL
    you are out your mind.

    the commentary said about the nature boy! he did not say you can be equal to yourself.
    the son is God just like his father. they are both God by nature.
    that is what he meant.

    you and your father are equal. MAN is equal to MAN! that means you are equal bec of your nature!

    now you are asking me if where in the scripture says in all parts.

    here is what the bible says
    Philippians 2:6

    Amplified Bible (AMP)

    6 Who, although being essentially one with God and in the form of God [possessing the fullness of the attributes which make God God], did not think this equality with God was a thing to be eagerly grasped [c]or retained,

    do you understand the bold letters? you should read over and over again boy

    #327323
    jammin
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 10 2013,12:08)

    Quote (jammin @ Jan. 08 2013,19:29)
    thanks for the answer. you believe that you are Equal to your father.

    then accept christ is equal to his father.


    I do believe that the anointed one OF our ONE and ONLY God is equal to his Father in many ways.  They have both existed from before the world was created.  They are both spirit beings.  I'm sure I could list a hundred other things in which the Son OF God is equal to the God who begot him before the ages.

    But then, I could also list a hundred ways WE are equal to the God in whose image we were created.  Both God and humans can communicate through spoken language.  We are equal to God in that respect.  Both God and humans can see.  We are equal to our God in that respect.  Both God and humans have souls.  We are equal to our God in that respect.

    So, I and my father have the same nature, which is “flesh nature”.  Jesus and his Father have the same nature, which is “spirit nature”.  And just as I am equal to my father in that we are both flesh, Jesus is equal to his Father in that they are both spirit beings.  All the other spirit sons of God are equal to their Father in that same way.  But that doesn't make any of those spirit sons of God the very God they are equal to in nature.

    jammin, talking to you is such a waste of time.  I have one question for you:

    John 20:17
    I am returning to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.

    If the Father of Jesus IS your Father, why isn't the God of Jesus your God?


    thanks you accept now the truth the you are equal with your father.

    you said flesh nature. LOL
    man is limited. do you agree? your father is limited and so as you. do you agree?
    man is not immortal. your father is not immortal. you are also not immortal. do you believe that?

    i know you will answer yes. LOL

    God is not a MAN. Christ is God BUT HE BECAME HUMAN! he became like us! that is what paul trying to say in phil 2.6-7!
    he came from heaven to earth to show the way.

    #327324
    jammin
    Participant

    Quote (Ed J @ Jan. 10 2013,11:43)
    Hi Jammin,

    More words of men, huh? Men's words
    are what cause people to believe error, what
    makes you think that men's words are truth anyway?

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org


    what? those are wrtten words in the bible.
    you cant accept that bec that is not your belief.
    so for you if it is not written, it is the word of GOD? LOL

    i can read Christ is the WORD OF GOD in john 1.1

    you believe that the WORD in john 1.1 is the HS but you cant give me any single version for your imagination. LOL
    and you believe that your doctrine is the truth? even if you cant read those words in the bible >? LOL
    that only exists in your imagination boy

    #327340
    kerwin
    Participant

    Jammin,

    Quote

    do you understand what phil 2.6-7 said?

    you said:In conclusion you infer that Jesus is not Yawheh because he has no divine privileges while at the same time you explicitly claim he is Yawheh and so break your own words.

    did i say that?

    I said you inferred Jesus is not Yawheh since that is the logical conclusion of God giving up his divine privilages.
    I said you explicityly claim Jesus is Yawheh becaus you declare Jesus is the one true God; whose name is Yawheh.

    So yes you did say that, though you seem not to see truth in that your teaching is broken in many places.

    Quote
    the bible said that God became human. phil 2.6

    I see no reason to cover such an unreasonable statement yet again.  Yawheh being God will not become human and leave us without God. What he does is to dwell in us through his Spirit.  Jesus having the Spiritual nature of Yawheh saw equality with Yawheh as something not to be grasped but made himself nothing by taking on the Spiritual nature of a servant.

    Quote
    you are saying NLT is a poor translation bec it does not support your imagination. commentaries also agree that God (not the father but the son) became human.

    I am saying it is a lousy translation because it is a thought for thought translation by those that sprout contaradictions.  The Amplified Bibble adds words as well as commentary and so may not be much better.  The Genevah bible itself apears to fall in normal range of reliability but the comments in the study version are statements of doctrine.

    Quote
    …commentaries also agree that God (not the father but the son) became human.

    These “teachers” teach that there is a Yawheh the Father and a Yawheh the Son.  That is two true Gods where there is only one true God. To resolve that some state 2=1 in their suspention of unbelief of their own words.

    Quote
    see kerwin, you cant accept that truth bec what you are saying is a false doctrine. the father has a SON and his son is like him.
    he is God.

    A teaching full of breakes is not from the God of Jesus; who teaches us God's Word cannot be broken. There are no breaks in the teaching that the Son is like the Father in that he is full of the Spirit.

    #327385
    jammin
    Participant

    kerwin said: Yawheh being God will not become human

    where in the bible can you read that?

    you are not accepting those facts even if it's written in the bible bec you want doctrines of men.

    your doctrine is not in the bible and yet you want people to believe those non sense words. your doctrine is not supported by the bible.
    if you want, you can make your own bible to support your imagination LOL

    #327402
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    jammin,

    Is God a BEING? Or is God a NATURE?

    Which one?

    Is God the Father a nature, like “Mother Nature”? Do you pray to “Father Nature”, jammin?

    #327403
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 10 2013,06:32)
    So yes you did say that, though you seem not to see truth in that your teaching is broken in many places.


    Amen.

    #327411
    abe
    Participant

    Quote (jammin @ Jan. 10 2013,17:22)
    kerwin said: Yawheh being God will not become human

    where in the bible can you read that?

    you are not accepting those facts even if it's written in the bible bec you want doctrines of men.

    your doctrine is not in the bible and yet you want people to believe those non sense words. your doctrine is not supported by the bible.
    if you want, you can make your own bible to support your imagination LOL


    Hi Jammin,

    Nu.23:19 God is not a man that He should lie, nor a son of man, that He should repent. Has He said, and will he not do it? Or has He spoken, and will he not make it good?

    Peace….

    #327427
    jammin
    Participant

    abe,

    did that verse say that God will not become human?
    yes or no?

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