John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 1,161 through 1,180 (of 25,997 total)
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  • #103920
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 03 2008,13:31)
    Hi t8

    Quote (t8 @ Sep. 03 2008,11:16)

    There is no scripture to support that Gabriel had a beginning either.


    All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. John 1:3


    I agree that this scripture answers that question, even though there is no specific mention of Gabriel being created.

    #103921
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 03 2008,13:31)
    I was appointed from eternity,

    from the beginning, before the world began. Proverbs 8:23

    Clearly before wisdom was brought forth he was from eternity.

    So one should ask, “was there ever a time God had no wisdom”? Wisdom is only born when it is revealed to angels or men.

    Wisdom always existed. Yeshua is made unto us the wisdom of God because all wisdom and knowledge is contained in him.

    In whom are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge. Col 2:3


    Again it is the attribute versus identity issue which I don't think you have managed to grasp yet given your replies.

    God has always had wisdom as one of his attributes just as truth and grace are attributes of God.

    The difference is that the person of truth and the person of wisdom is not the same as the attribute of truth and wisdom in God, as one is as I said a person and the other an attribute.

    So yes your argument about the existence of wisdom being eternal is probably correct as I would imagine that God has always had wisdom. But there is no scripture that supports an eternal Wisdom as a person or identity that was with God in the beginning.

    It stands to reason that anyone who is born of God will contain or express his attributes to varying degrees. This goes along with the names we are given by God and his son. Jesus renamed Simon to Peter for example as a name is suppose to be descriptive of a persons character which if good, is also an attribute of God. Think of the name Grace for example. So if Jesus is called Wisdom, then that doesn't nullify the attribute of wisdom in God and neither does it prove that Jesus is eternal because wisdom has always been.

    As usual a reader needs to divest him self of the Nicene Creed in order to read the scriptures fairly and without bias.

    #103923
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 03 2008,14:51)

    Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 04 2008,01:03)

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 02 2008,15:07)
    Hi LU,
    No Abraham did not seek to kill ANY man who had come to tell the truth given him of God.


    Hi Nick,
    Can you recall what “men” or “man” gave Abraham words of God beside the “man” he called LORD?  I know that God spoke with Abraham directly many times.  
    LU


    Hi LU,
    It matters not except that he never did try to murder a servant of God, which seems to be the instinctive attitude of all men bending the knee to the God of this world. [Heb11]


    Hi Nick and Jodi,
    Again:
    John 8:40-41
    40 “But as it is, you are seeking to kill Me, a man who has told you the truth, which I heard from God; this Abraham did not do.
    NASU

    You may think that it does not matter but bear with me if you don't mind.

    In my research, I only find one instance where a man or better yet what appeared as a man and was called Yaweh, came to Abraham and gave him the “truth” that he heard from God. Only one time!!! That is in Gen 18

    Gen 18:1-4
    Now the LORD appeared to him by the oaks of Mamre, while he was sitting at the tent door in the heat of the day. 2 When he lifted up his eyes and looked, behold, three men were standing opposite him; and when he saw them, he ran from the tent door to meet them and bowed himself to the earth, 3 and said, ” My Lord, if now I have found favor in Your sight, please do not pass Your servant by….

    Gen 18:12-14
    13 And the LORD said to Abraham, “Why did Sarah laugh, saying, 'Shall I indeed bear a child, when I am so old?' 14 ” Is anything too difficult for the LORD?
    NASU

    So, this is the ONLY reference that I found that was written where a “man” spoke the truth which He heard from God.

    My conclusion is that it was this ONE instance that Jesus is referring to in John 8 since at NO other time does a “man” give Abraham the truth which He heard from God.

    Now, a puzzle, Abraham calls this “man” Lord and the scriptures refer to Him as LORD. It never says that THIS “man” was an angel. The two “men” He was with are found to be angels and that is clear and they are not referred to as LORD.

    I suggest that this main “man” referred to as LORD is the pre-existent Christ who only appears as a man but isn't really a man. In the NT we are told that the words that Christ gives are not His but the Father's.

    John 14:24
    24 “He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine, but the Father's who sent Me.
    NASU

    Jesus isn't saying that Abraham didn't kill any men in general that gave the truth which they heard from God since there is no mention anywhere that any other men gave Abraham such truth. God spoke to Abraham directly, not through men except Gen 18 and the three only appeared as men.

    Jodi,
    The context of the verse in John is speaking of killing the man, not the truth.

    LU

    #103932
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 02 2008,15:28)

    Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 01 2008,02:52)
    In the beginning was the word.  That does not say that the “word” was eternal, it just says that it was in the beginning.  A word has an origin, first it must be a thought.  Surely there must be something more than that for those of you who believe that the Son of God always existed especially if you believe those who don't believe that are “heretics”.

    LU


    Hi LU

    So are you saying that God's Word is not eternal or from everlasting to everlasting?

    Was there ever a time that God did not have a Word?

    The Word of God does not have to be spoken to be his Word.

    For the Word is Spirit. God is Spirit, God and his Word are One, in fact he has exalted his Word above his own name.

    If Yeshua is the “Wisdom of God” and “the Truth”, was there ever a time the Father did not have “Wisdom” or “Truth”?  ???

    Yeshua is the exact representation of the Father, (John 1:1, Heb 1:3, Phil 2:6) since the Father is eternal, so is Yeshua.

    He is the “eternal life”, (1 John 1:1,2) that was with the Father in the beginning.

    All things were made by and through him and without him nothing was made that was made. (John 1:3) He did not make himself. If he was a creation as some claim, or born, which scripturally there is no difference, then he would be included in the “All Things”, but he is not.

    Did God create or bring birth to his Word? ???

    Where is the scripture to support this theory?

    WJ


    Hello WJ,
    I hope you had a good holiday!

    First of all,
    A thought, when expressed becomes a word and not the other way around.  The thought comes first.  A word isn't eternal.  

    Also, when Jesus is called the “Word of God” that doesn't mean He is first expression of God's thoughts. The words Jesus speaks are not HIS, meaning that the origin of the words is not from Jesus's own thoughts but from what He hears from the Father.  

    John 14:24
    24 “He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine, but the Father's who sent Me.  
    NASU

    John 15:15-16
    15 “No longer do I call you slaves, for the slave does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all things that I have heard from My Father I have made known to you.  
    NASU

    So we see that the “Word of God” in Rev. was not the first expression of the thoughts of God but the name of the speaker who was given the word of God so that He could give it to others.

    Next,
    Prov 8:23-25
    23 “From everlasting I was established,
    From the beginning, from the earliest times of the earth.
    24 “When there were no depths I was brought forth,
    When there were no springs abounding with water.
    25 ” Before the mountains were settled,
    Before the hills I was brought forth;
    NASU

    The term “from everlasting” is the hebrew word `owlam
    OT:5769

    `owlam (o-lawm'); or `olam (o-lawm'); from OT:5956; properly, concealed, i.e. the vanishing point; generally, time out of mind (past or future), i.e. (practically) eternity; frequentatively, adverbial (especially with prepositional prefix) always:

    KJV – alway (-s), ancient (time), any more, continuance, eternal, (for, [n-]) ever (-lasting, -more, of old), lasting, long (time), (of) old (time), perpetual, at any time, (beginning of the) world (+without end).
    (Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, Biblesoft and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

    The same word is in this verse:
    Josh 24:2

    2 And Joshua said unto all the people, Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Your fathers dwelt on the other side of the flood in old time, even Terah, the father of Abraham, and the father of Nachor: and they served other gods
    KJV

    It is translated “in old time”.  There are many other verses that clearly show that this hebrew word does not refer to things merely always existent.

    LU

    #103936
    Not3in1
    Participant

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Sep. 04 2008,09:00)

    Quote (gollamudi @ Sep. 03 2008,16:29)

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Sep. 03 2008,09:10)
    Yahshua Came Down From Heaven

    The phrase “came down from heaven” is difficult for many to understand. The Jews did not understand either as we read in Jn. 6:42; “And they said, Is not this Yahshua, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?” There is no doubt that Yahshua was emphasizing his heavenly and paternal origin, but in what sense was he declaring this? We have already seen that the phrase “sent from Yahweh” does not necessarily mean to exist side by side with and then leave Yahweh's presence. Neither does “came down from” mean something similar. Was Yahshua a pre-existent spirit being living side by side with Yahweh that was transformed into an embryo placed in Miriam's womb or was he actually inside Yahweh, “in His loins” as it were, and later united with Miriam's egg through the power of the Holy Spirit? Jn.17:8 teaches the latter. It reads, “For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee , and they have believed that thou didst send me.” The Greek word “exerchomai” translated “came out” specifically means to go out of something that you were inside of. In this case, Yahshua existed inside of Yahweh in the same sense that Levi existed inside the “loins of his father” before he was born (Heb. 7:5-10).

    Yahshua declared this truth in Jn.16:27-30 as well. “For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from Yahweh . I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father. His disciples said unto him, Lo, now speakest thou plainly, and speakest no proverb. Now are we sure that thou knowest all things, and needest not that any man should ask thee: by this we believe that thou camest forth from Yahweh.” Yahshua could not come from Yahweh's side and from inside of Yahweh at the same time. Only one can be true.

    A verse that goes hand in hand with the phrase “came down from heaven” is Jn.6:62; “What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?” Yahshua's origin is not in question here. Those who reject the pre-existence doctrine should not reject Yahshua's heavenly origin or that his father was Yahweh. Yahshua was, at one time, in heaven. He existed in the loins of His Father Yahweh until the appointed time of his earthly birth. Through Yahweh's miraculous Holy Spirit power He then impregnated Miriam's egg with the seed that dwelt inside of Him. The belief that Yahshua was a spirit being that was miniaturized and placed directly into Miriam's womb without uniting with her egg is unscriptural. If that were true, Miriam would merely be a surrogate mother and Yahshua would not be from the blood line of David.

    Excerpt From:
    Did Our Savior Pre-exist?


    Hi brother F4Y,
    Good points on pre-existence of Yahshua.

    But I want to ask you whether God the immortal Spirit being can possess any mortal substance like sperm or DNA in Him to pass on to Jesus during his conception in Mary ?

    Thanks and peace to you
    Adam


    I find no such teaching in Scriptuyre.


    Frank,

    Do you think that Mary supplied both sets of chromosomes needed to create a human being?

    Mandy

    #103940
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 04 2008,10:46)

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 03 2008,14:51)

    Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 04 2008,01:03)

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 02 2008,15:07)
    Hi LU,
    No Abraham did not seek to kill ANY man who had come to tell the truth given him of God.


    Hi Nick,
    Can you recall what “men” or “man” gave Abraham words of God beside the “man” he called LORD?  I know that God spoke with Abraham directly many times.  
    LU


    Hi LU,
    It matters not except that he never did try to murder a servant of God, which seems to be the instinctive attitude of all men bending the knee to the God of this world. [Heb11]


    Hi Nick and Jodi,
    Again:
    John 8:40-41
    40 “But as it is, you are seeking to kill Me, a man who has told you the truth, which I heard from God; this Abraham did not do.
    NASU

    You may think that it does not matter but bear with me if you don't mind.

    In my research, I only find one instance where a man or better yet what appeared as a man and was called Yaweh, came to Abraham and gave him the “truth” that he heard from God.  Only one time!!!   That is in Gen 18

    Gen 18:1-4
    Now the LORD appeared to him by the oaks of Mamre, while he was sitting at the tent door in the heat of the day. 2 When he lifted up his eyes and looked, behold, three men were standing opposite him; and when he saw them, he ran from the tent door to meet them and bowed himself to the earth, 3 and said, ” My Lord, if now I have found favor in Your sight, please do not pass Your servant by….

    Gen 18:12-14
    13 And the LORD said to Abraham, “Why did Sarah laugh, saying, 'Shall I indeed bear a child, when I am so old?' 14 ” Is anything too difficult for the LORD?
    NASU

    So, this is the ONLY reference that I found that was written where a “man” spoke the truth which He heard from God.

    My conclusion is that it was this ONE instance that Jesus is referring to in John 8 since at NO other time does a “man” give Abraham the truth which He heard from God.

    Now, a puzzle, Abraham calls this “man” Lord and the scriptures refer to Him as LORD.  It never says that THIS “man” was an angel.  The two “men” He was with are found to be angels and that is clear and they are not referred to as LORD.  

    I suggest that this main “man” referred to as LORD is the pre-existent Christ who only appears as a man but isn't really a man.  In the NT we are told that the words that Christ gives are not His but the Father's.

    John 14:24
    24 “He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine, but the Father's who sent Me.  
    NASU

    Jesus isn't saying that Abraham didn't kill any men in general that gave the truth which they heard from God since there is no mention anywhere that any other men gave Abraham such truth.  God spoke to Abraham directly, not through men except Gen 18 and the three only appeared as men.

    Jodi,
    The context of the verse in John is speaking of killing the man, not the truth.

    LU


    Hi LU,
    Of Cours eJesus was never called YHWH.
    He is Yahshua.

    So you must claim it was God Himself, the God that creation cannot contain, that met Abe if this is your approach.

    #103965
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Hi Nick,
    Can you prove that Jesus was never called “Yahweh”?

    I believe that I can show that two are called Yahweh.
    Here goes:
    Ex 6:2-3
    2 God also said to Moses, “I am the LORD. 3 I appeared to Abraham, to Isaac and to Jacob as God Almighty, but by my name the LORD I did not make myself known to them.
    (from New International Version)

    hmmmmm…

    Here we have the LORD speaking to Isaac and Isaac called upon the name of the “LORD”:
    Gen 26:23-25
    24 The LORD appeared to him the same night and said,

    ” I am the God of your father Abraham;
    Do not fear, for I am with you.
    I will bless you, and multiply your descendants,
    For the sake of My servant Abraham.”

    25 So he built an altar there and called upon the name of the LORD, and pitched his tent there; and there Isaac's servants dug a well.
    NASU

    In this passage, the LORD is speaking to Jacob in a dream as “LORD”:
    Gen 28:12-17
    13 And behold, the LORD stood above it and said, “I am the LORD, the God of your father Abraham and the God of Isaac; the land on which you lie, I will give it to you and to your descendants. 14 “Your descendants will also be like the dust of the earth, and you will spread out to the west and to the east and to the north and to the south; and in you and in your descendants shall all the families of the earth be blessed. 15 “Behold, I am with you and will keep you wherever you go, and will bring you back to this land; for I will not leave you until I have done what I have promised you.” 16 Then Jacob awoke from his sleep and said, ” Surely the LORD is in this place, and I did not know it.” 17 He was afraid and said, ” How awesome is this place! This is none other than the house of God, and this is the gate of heaven.”
    NASU

    Yahweh does not lie. I figure there are two that are called that name. One, the Most High God and the other, His Son that represents Him on earth.

    LU

    #103969
    gollamudi
    Participant

    Hi brother F4Y,
    Thanks for that clarification then goahead in your more revelations I am with you in those understandings. I hope our Sis Mandy also realise this truth.

    Thanks and peace to you
    Adam

    #103984
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 04 2008,15:39)
    Hi Nick,
    Can you prove that Jesus was never called “Yahweh”?

    I believe that I can show that two are called Yahweh.
    Here goes:
    Ex 6:2-3
    2 God also said to Moses, “I am the LORD. 3 I appeared to Abraham, to Isaac and to Jacob as God Almighty, but by my name the LORD I did not make myself known to them.
    (from New International Version)

    hmmmmm…

    Here we have the LORD speaking to Isaac and Isaac called upon the name of the “LORD”:
    Gen 26:23-25
    24 The LORD appeared to him the same night and said,

    ” I am the God of your father Abraham;
    Do not fear, for I am with you.
    I will bless you, and multiply your descendants,
    For the sake of My servant Abraham.”

    25 So he built an altar there and called upon the name of the LORD, and pitched his tent there; and there Isaac's servants dug a well.
    NASU

    In this passage, the LORD is speaking to Jacob in a dream as “LORD”:
    Gen 28:12-17
    13 And behold, the LORD stood above it and said, “I am the LORD, the God of your father Abraham and the God of Isaac; the land on which you lie, I will give it to you and to your descendants. 14 “Your descendants will also be like the dust of the earth, and you will spread out to the west and to the east and to the north and to the south; and in you and in your descendants shall all the families of the earth be blessed. 15 “Behold, I am with you and will keep you wherever you go, and will bring you back to this land; for I will not leave you until I have done what I have promised you.” 16 Then Jacob awoke from his sleep and said, ” Surely the LORD is in this place, and I did not know it.” 17 He was afraid and said, ” How awesome is this place! This is none other than the house of God, and this is the gate of heaven.”
    NASU

    Yahweh does not lie.  I figure there are two that are called that name.  One, the Most High God and the other, His Son that represents Him on earth.

    LU


    Jesus is either the son of YHWH or he is YHWH. He is not the son of himself.

    Proverbs 30:4
    Who has gone up to heaven and come down? Who has gathered up the wind in the hollow of his hands? Who has wrapped up the waters in his cloak? Who has established all the ends of the earth? What is his name, and the name of his son? Tell me if you know!

    #103985
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 04 2008,12:38)
    Hi LU,
    Of Cours eJesus was never called YHWH.
    He is Yahshua.

    So you must claim it was God Himself, the God that creation cannot contain, that met Abe if this is your approach.


    But how does anyone see an invisible God who is eternal?

    Through an image?

    So those who saw God see his representative. They see the son, a Cherub, Seraph, etc. In other words they see God's glory.

    Acts 7:30
    “After forty years had passed, an angel appeared to Moses in the flames of a burning bush in the desert near Mount Sinai.

    Acts 7:55
    But Stephen, full of the Holy Spirit, looked up to heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God.

    #103998
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Hi t8,
    I don't think that God is referred to as the invisible God because He has no form or body type. In fact, He let Moses see His “form”. Also, Jesus saw Him.

    Num 12:6-8

    “Hear now My words:
    If there is a prophet among you,
    I, the LORD, shall make Myself known to him in a vision.
    I shall speak with him in a dream.
    7 “Not so, with My servant Moses,
    He is faithful in all My household;
    8 With him I speak mouth to mouth,
    Even openly, and not in dark sayings,
    And he beholds the form of the LORD.
    Why then were you not afraid
    To speak against My servant, against Moses?”
    NASU

    Notice that God didn't show His “form” to the assembly of Israelites:

    Deut 4:12
    12 “Then the LORD spoke to you from the midst of the fire; you heard the sound of words, but you saw no form–only a voice.
    NASU

    One reason that God doesn't let Himself be seen is so men don't make graven images of Him. Like we have in action figures nowadays.

    Deut 4:15-17

    15 “So watch yourselves carefully, since you did not see any form on the day the LORD spoke to you at Horeb from the midst of the fire, 16 so that you do not act corruptly and make a graven image for yourselves in the form of any figure, the likeness of male or female,
    NASU

    John 6:46
    “Not that anyone has seen the Father, except the One who is from God; He has seen the Father.

    The word translated as “has seen” is written in the “perfect” tense which is explained here:
    Perfect
    The perfect tense in Greek corresponds to the perfect tense in English, and describes an action which is viewed as having been completed in the past, once and for all, not needing to be repeated.

    Jesus' last cry from the cross, TETELESTAI (“It is finished!”) is a good example of the perfect tense used in this sense, namely “It [the atonement] has been accomplished, completely, once and for all time.”

    Certain antiquated verb forms in Greek, such as those related to seeing (eidw) or knowing (oida) will use the perfect tense in a manner equivalent to the normal past tense. These few cases are exception to the normal rule and do not alter the normal connotation of the perfect tense stated above.

    It is also written in the “indicative” mood which is explained here:
    Indicative
    The indicative mood is a simple statement of fact. If an action really occurs or has occurred or will occur, it will be rendered in the indicative mood.

    To verify this info, you can go here:
    http://www.studylight.org/isb….=1&l=en
    and then click on “(5758)” listed in the Greek verse.

    Also, God speaks of doing things with His hands like spreading out the heavens. Also, He “sits” on the throne.

    In summary, I think that God can be seen but He just hasn't allowed us to see Him and thus, He remains invisible to us. The only man that has truly seen Him is Jesus. Moses only saw His form, He hasn't seen Him like Jesus has.

    LU

    #103999
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Quote (t8 @ Sep. 04 2008,05:39)

    Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 04 2008,15:39)
    Hi Nick,
    Can you prove that Jesus was never called “Yahweh”?

    I believe that I can show that two are called Yahweh.
    Here goes:
    Ex 6:2-3
    2 God also said to Moses, “I am the LORD. 3 I appeared to Abraham, to Isaac and to Jacob as God Almighty, but by my name the LORD I did not make myself known to them.
    (from New International Version)

    hmmmmm…

    Here we have the LORD speaking to Isaac and Isaac called upon the name of the “LORD”:
    Gen 26:23-25
    24 The LORD appeared to him the same night and said,

    ” I am the God of your father Abraham;
    Do not fear, for I am with you.
    I will bless you, and multiply your descendants,
    For the sake of My servant Abraham.”

    25 So he built an altar there and called upon the name of the LORD, and pitched his tent there; and there Isaac's servants dug a well.
    NASU

    In this passage, the LORD is speaking to Jacob in a dream as “LORD”:
    Gen 28:12-17
    13 And behold, the LORD stood above it and said, “I am the LORD, the God of your father Abraham and the God of Isaac; the land on which you lie, I will give it to you and to your descendants. 14 “Your descendants will also be like the dust of the earth, and you will spread out to the west and to the east and to the north and to the south; and in you and in your descendants shall all the families of the earth be blessed. 15 “Behold, I am with you and will keep you wherever you go, and will bring you back to this land; for I will not leave you until I have done what I have promised you.” 16 Then Jacob awoke from his sleep and said, ” Surely the LORD is in this place, and I did not know it.” 17 He was afraid and said, ” How awesome is this place! This is none other than the house of God, and this is the gate of heaven.”
    NASU

    Yahweh does not lie.  I figure there are two that are called that name.  One, the Most High God and the other, His Son that represents Him on earth.

    LU


    Jesus is either the son of YHWH or he is YHWH. He is not the son of himself.

    Proverbs 30:4
    Who has gone up to heaven and come down? Who has gathered up the wind in the hollow of his hands? Who has wrapped up the waters in his cloak? Who has established all the ends of the earth? What is his name, and the name of his son? Tell me if you know!


    t8,

    You wrote:

    “Jesus is either the son of YHWH or he is YHWH. He is not the son of himself.”

    I agree that Jesus is not the son of Himself. I do think that the Father and the Son might both be referred to as Yahweh as I pointed out in my post. I don't claim to understand it all but I do know that in the NT, Jesus says that He has come in the name of His Father. I think that He has come in the name of His Father in the OT also.

    John 5:43-45
    43 “I have come in My Father's name, and you do not receive Me; if another comes in his own name, you will receive him. 44 “How can you believe, when you receive glory from one another and you do not seek the glory that is from the one and only God?
    NASU

    LU

    #104012
    Frank4YAHWEH
    Participant

    Quote (Not3in1 @ Sep. 04 2008,12:09)

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Sep. 04 2008,09:00)

    Quote (gollamudi @ Sep. 03 2008,16:29)

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Sep. 03 2008,09:10)
    Yahshua Came Down From Heaven

    The phrase “came down from heaven” is difficult for many to understand. The Jews did not understand either as we read in Jn. 6:42; “And they said, Is not this Yahshua, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?” There is no doubt that Yahshua was emphasizing his heavenly and paternal origin, but in what sense was he declaring this? We have already seen that the phrase “sent from Yahweh” does not necessarily mean to exist side by side with and then leave Yahweh's presence. Neither does “came down from” mean something similar. Was Yahshua a pre-existent spirit being living side by side with Yahweh that was transformed into an embryo placed in Miriam's womb or was he actually inside Yahweh, “in His loins” as it were, and later united with Miriam's egg through the power of the Holy Spirit? Jn.17:8 teaches the latter. It reads, “For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee , and they have believed that thou didst send me.” The Greek word “exerchomai” translated “came out” specifically means to go out of something that you were inside of. In this case, Yahshua existed inside of Yahweh in the same sense that Levi existed inside the “loins of his father” before he was born (Heb. 7:5-10).

    Yahshua declared this truth in Jn.16:27-30 as well. “For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from Yahweh . I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father. His disciples said unto him, Lo, now speakest thou plainly, and speakest no proverb. Now are we sure that thou knowest all things, and needest not that any man should ask thee: by this we believe that thou camest forth from Yahweh.” Yahshua could not come from Yahweh's side and from inside of Yahweh at the same time. Only one can be true.

    A verse that goes hand in hand with the phrase “came down from heaven” is Jn.6:62; “What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?” Yahshua's origin is not in question here. Those who reject the pre-existence doctrine should not reject Yahshua's heavenly origin or that his father was Yahweh. Yahshua was, at one time, in heaven. He existed in the loins of His Father Yahweh until the appointed time of his earthly birth. Through Yahweh's miraculous Holy Spirit power He then impregnated Miriam's egg with the seed that dwelt inside of Him. The belief that Yahshua was a spirit being that was miniaturized and placed directly into Miriam's womb without uniting with her egg is unscriptural. If that were true, Miriam would merely be a surrogate mother and Yahshua would not be from the blood line of David.

    Excerpt From:
    Did Our Savior Pre-exist?


    Hi brother F4Y,
    Good points on pre-existence of Yahshua.

    But I want to ask you whether God the immortal Spirit being can possess any mortal substance like sperm or DNA in Him to pass on to Jesus during his conception in Mary ?

    Thanks and peace to you
    Adam


    I find no such teaching in Scriptuyre.


    Frank,

    Do you think that Mary supplied both sets of chromosomes needed to create a human being?

    Mandy


    There is no teaching in Scripture that leads me to believe that Miriam supplied both sets of chromosomes needed to create a human being?

    #104016
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi LU,
    Do you work in the name of Jesus.
    Does that make you him?

    Jesus is the Son of the living God
    Yahshua

    #104017
    Not3in1
    Participant

    Frank,

    Exactly. Mary, Maria or Miriam (as she has been called here) could not of supplied both sets. Where did the second set come from if it was not from God?

    Thanks,
    Mandy

    #104019
    Not3in1
    Participant

    Hi Kathi,

    If God will not share his glory with another, wouldn't you think that would include his name as well? Just a thought…

    Thanks,
    Mandy

    #104023
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 04 2008,15:17)
    Hi LU,
    Do you work in the name of Jesus.
    Does that make you him?

    Jesus is the Son of the living God
    Yahshua


    Nick,
    I do not think you are following along or I am not making myself clear.
    LU

    #104027
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi LU,
    I have one to follow.
    He is the son of YHWH.

    #104028
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi LU,
    You say
    “I believe that I can show that two are called Yahweh.”

    This is a favourite play of trinitarians desperate to amalgamate the Father with His Son.
    Jesus never said he had visited earth before so we should not speak for him.

    #104036
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 04 2008,16:47)
    Hi LU,
    You say
    “I believe that I can show that two are called Yahweh.”

    This is a favourite play of trinitarians desperate to amalgamate the Father with His Son.
    Jesus never said he had visited earth before so we should not speak for him.


    Hi Nick and Mandy,
    Well, you know that I am not a trinitarian, right? You know that I think there is one that is the Most High God and that He is our one true God, right? Do you also know that I believe that His Son is different than Him and not equal and not eternal either. Right?

    Don't be worried, I am not leading you down trinity road here.
    It seems likely to me that Exodus 6:3 has a clue for us though. How do you explain that Jacob was told from God that He who was speaking to Him was the LORD in Gen 28:13 but the speaker says to Moses in Ex 6:2-3 “I am the LORD. 3 I appeared to Abraham, to Isaac and to Jacob as God Almighty, but by my name the LORD I did not make myself known to them.
    (from New International Version)

    Isn't it possible that there are two represented by the name LORD?

    John 17:12
    12 “While I was with them, I was keeping them in Your name which You have given Me;
    NASU

    Luke 10:22
    22 “All things have been handed over to Me by My Father, and no one knows who the Son is except the Father, and who the Father is except the Son, and anyone to whom the Son wills to reveal Him.”
    NASU

    John 16:15
    15 “All things that the Father has are Mine; therefore I said that He takes of Mine and will disclose it to you.
    NASU

    Could “all things” include His name?

    If you disagree then you must have a better explanation and I am willing to hear it.

    Nick, where is it written that Jesus never visited the earth before? If it is not written then should we assume that?
    LU

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