John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 10,761 through 10,780 (of 26,009 total)
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  • #315431
    Frank4YAHWEH
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 10 2012,04:23)

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Oct. 09 2012,10:32)
    I am not lying against you in saying that you worship “GODS”, since I have seen you clearly give reference to both YOUR “Jehovah” and YOUR “Jesus” as “GOD”.


    Frank,

    If you cannot produce the post from me where I said I worship Jesus (or anyone else but Jehovah) as my God, then you have in fact lied against me by stating that I worship gods (plural).

    You have done the same to Kerwin, who I know worships only Jehovah as well.

    It seems to me that you are a little slower than most here, but surely you can understand the difference between worshipping one God, and worshipping “gods”, right?   ???

    I worship one God.  His name is YHWH, and I call Him “Jehovah”.


    YOUKNOWWHATYOUDO,

    And still you insist on entering into a debate with me by responding!  :laugh:

    So, you do not believe that we are to “worship” the Messiah as your translation of Scripture clearly teaches and do you not in fact refer to YOUR “Jesus” as “GOD”? It is quite obvious to me that you are the liar and not I! Following is just one of several occassions where it shows clearly in Scripture Yahshua being “worshiped”:

    Then they that were in the ship came and worshipped him [Yahshua] saying, Of a truth you are the son of Yahweh (Mattithyah 14:23).

    It is quite obvious to me that they did not “worship” Yahshua as our Heavenly Father and Creator and most certainly not as “GOD” as you erroneously do!

    I do not believe that I have to waste my time producing a post from you where you worship YOUR “Jesus” as YOUR “GOD”, since it is quite obvious to me in many of your posts that you clearly and erroneously give reference to him as “GOD”. My count is clearly quite accurate in that you worship TWO “GODS” with ONE being named “Jehovah” and THE OTHER being named “Jesus”. ONE “GOD” and THE OTHER “GOD” is clearly a count of TWO “GODS” to me! YOUR “Jesus” most certainly is not MY “GOD”, but is in fact YOURS! :laugh:

    WHO IS THE WORD?
    John Chapter One

    ELOHIM: ONE, OR MORE THAN ONE?
    Exodus 32
    By Voy Wilks
    3/9/98

    The Pre-existence
    Philippians 2:5-11
    By Voy Wilks
    1/29/92

    Did Yahshua Create Or Pre-exist His Birth?

    “Jesus IS God!”?

    #315433
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Frank,

    There is no scripture that says Jesus was worshipped as if he was God Almighty.  

    So YES, Jesus IS called a god in many scriptures, but NO, he is not the Most High God – who alone is to be worshipped as our God.

    Angels are also called gods in scripture, but they are not to be worshipped as God Almighty.

    Men are also called gods in scripture, but they are not to be worshipped as God Almighty.

    Frank, I base my understanding of scriptures on what the scriptures actually teach – not on what is “politically correct” in today's society.  So YES, I acknowledge the existence of gods who are not Jehovah, but NO, I don't worship any of those as if they were God Almighty.

    I worship only ONE God.  His name is YHWH, and I call Him “Jehovah”.

    To post other than that about me is to post a lie, Frank. People who continue to post lies, after being corrected about their “mistake”, receive tiles.

    #315434
    carmel
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 10 2012,03:14)


    Quote
    So, if you continue to make such long posts, with so many points to address, I will continue to pick the point I WANT to address.

    Mike,

    These questions hereunder were posted in a very short and simple post,as you suggested!!

    Now answer these two then!!

    DO YOU BELIEVE THAT GOD RESPECTED OUR LOGICAL REASONING IN ORDER TO REDEEM US???

    YES or NO ???

    DO YOU BELIEVE THAT GOD RESPECTED THE LOGICAL REASONING REGARDING THE OT.SCRIPTURE I POSTED???

    YES or NOW???

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles

    #315437
    carmel
    Participant

    [quote=mikeboll64,Oct. 10 2012,03:14][/quote]

    Quote
    So if Jesus forgiving sins on earth means that Jesus is God in the flesh, then you better add some more Gods to your Godhead, namely, all the disciples who also were given authority to forgive sins on earth.

    Mike,

    Up to Jesus time, as you know, no one had the authority to forgive sins, NOT EVEN GOD OF THE OT.although HE HAD, SINCE HE WAS REJECTED BY HUMANS.

    HE WOULD KILL WHOEVER SINS INSTANTLY, even without the intention.

    SO WHEN JESUS CAME HE FORGAVE SINS TO PROVE THAT HE WAS GOD.

    JESUS ALSO STATED:

    John 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me,

    THE WORK THAT I DO SHALL HE DO ALSO; AND GREATER WORKS THAN THESE SHALL HE DO;

    because I go unto my Father.

    OK Mike,

    Jesus confirmed that who believe  in Him, would be able to do not just His work, but even greater.

    I DON'T FEEL THE NEED TO MENTION THE  MIRACLES WHICH PAUL AND  PETER PERFORMED IN THE NAME OF JESUS THE TRUE GOD TO PROVE THAT HUMAN BEING BECAME AN AUTHORITY OVER SATAN'S KNIGDOM.

    GOD'S KINGDOM ON EARTH BUT IN THE NAME OF JESUS (JEHOSHUA) MIKE, NOT IN THE NAME OF JEHOVAH. THAT NAME HAS NO POWER, IT IS USELESS, IT IS A CORRUPTED NAME!!

    Also remember that when Jesus stated what you posted, regarding forgiving of sins, HE WAS IN COMMAND OF BOTH HEAVEN AND EARTH, AND HE ESTABLISHED HIS OWN COMMANDMENTS.

    ONE OF HIS COMMANDMENTS WAS THAT HIS APPOSTLES, FORGIVE SINS, AND WHATEVER THEY ESTABLISH ON EARTH WOULD BE ESTABLISHED IN HEAVEN.

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles

    #315438
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (carmel @ Oct. 09 2012,14:49)
    I DON'T FEEL THE NEED TO MENTION THE  MIRACLES WHICH PAUL AND  PETER PERFORMED IN THE NAME OF JESUS THE TRUE GOD……………..


    Charles,

    How is it that you are so willing to accept the disciples performing miracles in the name of their “God, Jesus Christ”, but you can't grasp Jesus performing miracles in the name of his God, Jehovah?

    Your interpretation of scriptures baffles not only me, but every other person on this site.  I have often seen posts where others ask you where you get your ideas from, because they certainly didn't come from any scripture.

    #315439
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (carmel @ Oct. 09 2012,14:49)
    GOD'S KINGDOM ON EARTH BUT IN THE NAME OF JESUS (JEHOSHUA) MIKE, NOT IN THE NAME OF JEHOVAH. THAT NAME HAS NO POWER, IT IS USELESS, IT IS A CORRUPTED NAME!!


    This is a perfect example for my last statement, Charles.  I can only shake my head in confusion while wondering where this idea came from.

    #315440
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (carmel @ Oct. 09 2012,13:53)
    DO YOU BELIEVE THAT GOD  RESPECTED OUR LOGICAL REASONING IN ORDER TO REDEEM US???

    YES or NO


    Absolutely.  The “logical reasoning” of the Israelites is that a lamb woud be sacrificed to atone for the sins of human beings.

    Jesus was sent as God's own sacrificial Lamb.

    Charles, consider that no Israelite ever sacrificed HIMSELF for the sins of his people.  Why then would God sacrifice HIMSELF?

    See?  The people always sacrificed one of their POSSESSIONS, just as God did when He sacrificed His Servant Jesus Christ.

    Quote (carmel @ Oct. 09 2012,13:53)
    DO YOU BELIEVE THAT GOD RESPECTED THE LOGICAL REASONING REGARDING THE OT.SCRIPTURE I POSTED???

    YES or NOW???


    Which scripture?

    #315458
    jammin
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 10 2012,03:37)

    Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 07 2012,15:51)
    God here in Phil 2:6 seems to be a particular type of form and not a particular person.


    Quote (jammin @ Oct. 07 2012,19:06)
    paul is talking about nature in phil 2.6 and not a particular person

    You mean like this?

    5 Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:

    6 Who, existing with the nature of the species known as “God”,
       did not consider equality with the species known as “God” something to be grasped……..

    Is that truly how you guys understand Paul's words?  Hmmmm………….

    Perhaps you could list a supporting scripture, where Paul used the word “God” to convey a species of being, instead of a particular being or beings.


    i did not say species mike. that is just your own words LOL
    i said NATURE! that is written in phil 2.6 and you cant deny that truth.
    have you forgotten your homework???

    you said FORM OF HIS GOD

    what version is that mike???
    can you read that?? or just an imagination?

    LOL

    #315459
    limjunus
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 10 2012,04:14)

    Quote (jammin @ Oct. 08 2012,20:33)

    Quote (Ed J @ Oct. 09 2012,02:41)

    Hi Jammin,

    Rather than God being an individual, are you suggesting
    that “God” is (according to you) a species instead?


    i cant read species in the bible.


    Yet it is you and Kathi who are understanding the word “god” in Phil 2:6 to MEAN “species”, right jammin?

    You can keep saying “nature”, but what you two are describing is a “SPECIES”, of which Jesus was a member.


    Mike,

    Those people are given their own understanding to justify their erroneous beliefs regarding and about the Singularity of God.

    They could not understand really what they are trying to talk about God?

    If we agreed with their teaching, we need to accept that the only true God, is sending Himself to the earth, praying to Himself and offering Himself to himself and more worse is, the only true God, died.

    According to them, Jesus Christ is a truly God? and they have based their beliefs by using the Bible verses, only in common with their stand without further comprehension and without deeper investigation.

    In depending their belief, Jesus Christ did not died, the body died and not Jesus Christ, even though the Bible was saying very clearly that Jesus Christ died and the only true God raised him from the dead.

    The very important question is, “If Jesus Christ did not died because he is truly God, but only his body.”

    Who is the body raised from the dead by God, and ascended to heaven and sit-down in the right hand of the only true God?[B]

    ???

    #315460
    limjunus
    Participant

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Oct. 10 2012,03:32)
    I worship and serve as God ONLY Jehovah – the God of gods who created the heavens, the earth, and everything in them, including His Son Jesus Christ.

    You should now be very clear on this matter, and I should therefore never have to read another post from you where you talk about me worshipping “gods”.[/quote]

    I am not lying against you in saying that you worship “GODS”, since I have seen you clearly give reference to both YOUR “Jehovah” and YOUR “Jesus” as “GOD”. I myself do not give reference to our Heavenly Father and Creator Yahweh and His son Yahshua as mere “GODS”, since I believe as Scripture clearly teaches that “ALL the 'GODS' of the nations are idols.” You are in fact making Father Yahweh and His son Yahshua out to be mere “IDOLS/GODS” when in fact they are not. “GODS” are nothing but Satan himself posing as if he in fact has power. You can continue lying agaist me till you are blue in the face for all I care, but I will never give reverence to YOUR mere “GODS” that you so foolishly worship!  :laugh:


    Here is my comprehension:

    Mike, believe that there are many gods and among so many gods, there is only true God. Jehovah, is the only true God to be worship alone …

    …. and Jesus Christ, even though he is a god, he should not be worship together with so called gods in this world.

    Frank Believe that there is only one true God, the Father of Jesus Christ and his apostles/disciples and the other so called gods and lords are not true gods but instead representing the gods of the world.

    The confusing factors is, the word “gods”, meant to Mike, “that we should recognize that there are existing called gods, even though there are not true God.

    So the problem between Mike and Frank is,

    a.) Mike: recognize that the so called gods are existing gods and should not be taken not true gods.

    b.) Frank: the so called gods should not be recognize as the only true God, instead shall be known the gods as false god.

    Correct me if I am wrong with my comprehension?

    #315473
    jammin
    Participant

    limjunus,

    cant you read gal 4.4??/ LOL

    the father sent his son!
    the son did not send himself but the father. your question is non sense LOL

    you cant ignore the truth boy. the SON is also God by nature. paul said that. the bible says that.
    how can people believe the teachings of felix manalo if there is no basis in the bible. felix manalo is not telling the WHOLE TRUTH.
    the true disciple of Christ listen to his word.

    #315481
    kerwin
    Participant

    To all,

    Why did the congregation “worship” David?
    1 Chronicles 29:20

    King James Version (KJV)

    20 And David said to all the congregation, Now bless the Lord your God. And all the congregation blessed the Lord God of their fathers, and bowed down their heads, and worshipped the Lord, and the king.

    #315482
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 09 2012,23:00)

    Quote (carmel @ Oct. 08 2012,00:27)

    Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 08 2012,12:11)
    Godhead means what is in God's head


    Kerwin,

    Look up in the dictionary so you have some mature knowledge REGARDING THE WORD:

    GODHEAD


    There is no such word as “godhead” in the scriptures.  That English word was an early mistranslation of the Greek language.

    You won't find that word in the more recent Trinitarian translations.  The KJV has the word “Godhead” in three scriptures:  Acts 17:29, Romans 1:20, and Colossians 2:9.  Look those verses up in any more recent translation, and you'll see “diety” or “divine nature” in place of the KJV's “Godhead”.


    Mike,

    It is an accurate translation at the time the KJV was written but those that lacked knowledge or were corrupt have managed to give it a Trinitarian meaning it did not have then. The original meaning of deity, divine, divine nature is still around.

    The Trinitarian meaning is not in Scripture but it is evidence of deception.

    #315485
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 09 2012,22:40)

    Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 07 2012,15:55)
    Hi Charles,
    I asked Mike how many 'theos' are to be known, believed in, served, honored, and praised in order to have eternal salvation.


    I'd be interested to hear Charles' and jammin's answer to that question.

    Well guys?  What's the NUMERICAL answer to Kathi's question?


    Mike,

    There are many gods whether in heaven or on earth; but to us there is but one God; Jehovah, the Lord of Multitudes, the Source of all good things.

    #315495
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 11 2012,03:15)
    To all,

    Why did the congregation “worship” David?
    1 Chronicles 29:20

    King James Version (KJV)

    20 And David said to all the congregation, Now bless the Lord your God. And all the congregation blessed the Lord God of their fathers, and bowed down their heads, and worshipped the Lord, and the king.


    k

    how did they worshiped THE LORD ??? AND HOW COULD THEY WORSHIP THE KING ????

    please detail it

    #315504
    Frank4YAHWEH
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 10 2012,06:35)
    Frank,

    There is no scripture that says Jesus was worshipped as if he was God Almighty.  

    So YES, Jesus IS called a god in many scriptures, but NO, he is not the Most High God – who alone is to be worshipped as our God.

    Angels are also called gods in scripture, but they are not to be worshipped as God Almighty.

    Men are also called gods in scripture, but they are not to be worshipped as God Almighty.

    Frank, I base my understanding of scriptures on what the scriptures actually teach – not on what is “politically correct” in today's society.  So YES, I acknowledge the existence of gods who are not Jehovah, but NO, I don't worship any of those as if they were God Almighty.

    I worship only ONE God.  His name is YHWH, and I call Him “Jehovah”.

    To post other than that about me is to post a lie, Frank.  People who continue to post lies, after being corrected about their “mistake”, receive tiles.

    YOUKNOWWHATYOUDO,

    It seems that you are hell-bent on getting me off of this forum. Well, go for it! As if I really care what foolish god worshipers do! :laugh:

    I never said “There is scripture that says Jesus was worshipped as if he was God Almighty.”

    Nowhere in Scripture is Yahshua ever called “God”.

    Makakim [“Angels”] are called “god” in Scripture TRANSLATIONS. I have never said that they were to be worshiped as Yahweh Almighty.

    No, you do not base your understanding on what Scripture actually teaches. WHATYOUDO is in fact pervert Scripture (Father Yahweh's inspired prophetic word).

    Again, “IDOLS/GODS” are “NOTHING” and have no power whatsoever. They can not speak, move, walk, do righteousness, and in fact can do no harm. It is quite obvious to me that they have no power whatsoever since, they must be carried.

    For ALL the GODS of the nations ARE IDOLS, but Yahweh made the heavens (Psalm 96:5; 1 Chronicles 16:27).

    Like a scarecrow in a melon patch, their idols cannot speak; they must be carried because they cannot walk. Do not fear them; they can do no harm nor can they do anything righteous (Yeremyah 10:5).

    You fail to realize that my disagreement with you is that you believe that IDOLS/GODS have power when in fact Scripture clearly teaches that they do not. Since you have openly stated that you recognize that these IDOLS/GODS have power, you in turn teach a lie. Since you have stated “People who continue to post lies, after being corrected about their “mistake”, receive tiles.”, you need to give yourself MANY tiles! Since Scripture clearly teaches that many are deceived into believing these IDOLS/GODS have power and that it is in fact Satan himself and his legion of demons behind these idols, you are in fact following Satan who has been a liar from the very beginning. Since you are following in the lie of Satan, you are in fact also being deceived worshiping these many IDOLS/GODS.

    *Do I mean then that a sacrifice offered to an idol is anything, or that an idol is anything? No, but the sacrifices of pagans [the nations] are offered to demons, not to Yahweh, and I do not want you to be participants with demons. You cannot drink the cup of Yahweh and the cup of demons too; you cannot have a part in both Yahweh's table and the table of demons (1 Corinthians 10:19-21).

    *NOTE:
    So then, about eating food sacrificed to idols [“gods”]: We know that an idol [“god”] is NOTHING AT ALL IN THE WORLD and that [B]THERE IS NO MIGHTY ONE [source of power {authority}, strength or might] BUT ONE.

    WHO IS THE WORD?
    John Chapter One

    ELOHIM: ONE, OR MORE THAN ONE?
    Exodus 32
    By Voy Wilks
    3/9/98

    The Pre-existence
    Philippians 2:5-11
    By Voy Wilks
    1/29/92

    Did Yahshua Create Or Pre-exist His Birth?

    “Jesus IS God!”?

    #315507
    Frank4YAHWEH
    Participant

    Quote (terraricca @ Oct. 11 2012,02:00)

    Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 11 2012,03:15)
    To all,

    Why did the congregation “worship” David?
    1 Chronicles 29:20

    King James Version (KJV)

    20 And David said to all the congregation, Now bless the Lord your God. And all the congregation blessed the Lord God of their fathers, and bowed down their heads, and worshipped the Lord, and the king.


    k

    how did they worshiped THE LORD ???  AND HOW COULD THEY WORSHIP THE KING ????

    please detail it


    Note who is being “worshiped” in the following verses:

    Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Yahdahim [Praisers of Yahweh], and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before your feet, and to know that I have loved you (Revelation 3:9).

    And let peoples serve thee, and tribes worship thee: be thou lord of thy brethren, and let they mother's children bow down before thee. Cursed be he that curseth thee: and let him that blesseth thee be filled with blessings. (Genesis 27-29 – Douay-Rheims Bible).

    Word Studies On Worship
    (shachah, latreuo, and proskuneo)

    WHO IS THE WORD?
    John Chapter One

    ELOHIM: ONE, OR MORE THAN ONE?
    Exodus 32
    By Voy Wilks
    3/9/98

    The Pre-existence
    Philippians 2:5-11
    By Voy Wilks
    1/29/92

    Did Yahshua Create Or Pre-exist His Birth?

    “Jesus IS God!”?

    #315508
    terraricca
    Participant

    f

    Quote
    Again, “IDOLS/GODS” are “NOTHING” and have no power whatsoever. They can not speak, move, walk, do righteousness, and in fact can do no harm. It is quite obvious to me that they have no power whatsoever since, they must be carried.

    this is only true if you know him( the true God),if not those false gods are the best that people have ,and that means they are everything to them,

    #315509
    Frank4YAHWEH
    Participant

    Quote (terraricca @ Oct. 11 2012,05:31)
    f

    Quote
    Again, “IDOLS/GODS” are “NOTHING” and have no power whatsoever. They can not speak, move, walk, do righteousness, and in fact can do no harm. It is quite obvious to me that they have no power whatsoever since, they must be carried.

    this is only true if you know him( the true God),if not those false gods are the best that people have ,and that means they are everything to them,


    I am no mere “God” worshiper! This most certainly includes the very “God” that you foolishly worship!

    Word Studies On Worship
    (shachah, latreuo, and proskuneo)

    WHO IS THE WORD?
    John Chapter One

    ELOHIM: ONE, OR MORE THAN ONE?
    Exodus 32
    By Voy Wilks
    3/9/98

    The Pre-existence
    Philippians 2:5-11
    By Voy Wilks
    1/29/92

    Did Yahshua Create Or Pre-exist His Birth?

    “Jesus IS God!”?

    #315517
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (terraricca @ Oct. 10 2012,21:00)

    Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 11 2012,03:15)
    To all,

    Why did the congregation “worship” David?
    1 Chronicles 29:20

    King James Version (KJV)

    20 And David said to all the congregation, Now bless the Lord your God. And all the congregation blessed the Lord God of their fathers, and bowed down their heads, and worshipped the Lord, and the king.


    k

    how did they worshiped THE LORD ???  AND HOW COULD THEY WORSHIP THE KING ????

    please detail it


    T,

    The scripture states they bowed down their heads and worshiped Jehovah and David. I do not see an answer to the how they did, beyond bowing their heads, but it is clear, that in some manner of speaking, they did.

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