John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 10,701 through 10,720 (of 26,009 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #315090
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (jammin @ Oct. 08 2012,05:40)

    Quote (terraricca @ Oct. 07 2012,16:05)

    Quote (jammin @ Oct. 07 2012,22:02)

    Quote (terraricca @ Oct. 07 2012,03:24)

    Quote (jammin @ Oct. 07 2012,08:33)

    Quote (terraricca @ Oct. 06 2012,15:50)

    Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 06 2012,21:30)
    Pierre,

    Quote
    Many gods and many men are almighty in their own range,

    Maybe in someone's eyes but Jesus and the Father have authority over them. So much for being almighty in someone's eyes if you aren't almighty in the eyes of the Father and Son.


    K

    All powers are given by God almighty not his son,even the son power has been given to him by the father,


    this is the reason T

    Philippians 2:6-7

    New International Version (NIV)

    6 Who, being in very nature God,
       did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;
    7 rather, he made himself nothing
       by taking the very nature
    of a servant,
       being made in human likeness.


    jamin

    Phil 2:6 Who, being in very nature God,
    did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
    Phil 2:7 but made himself nothing,
    taking the very nature of a servant,
    being made in human likeness.
    Phil 2:8 And being found in appearance as a man,
    he humbled himself
    and became obedient to death—
    even death on a cross!
    Phil 2:9 Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
    and gave him the name that is above every name,
    Phil 2:10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
    in heaven and on earth and under the earth,

    NOW WITH THOSE SCRIPTURES WHAT WAS IT THAT YOU TRY TO MAKE ME UNDERSTAND ????


    read verse 6-7 over and over again.


    Jamin

    :D  :D  :D You can not even point out your believe in scriptures,

    You too have a vocabulary problem me because English is not my first language ,but you it is more like you do not know many words in your own language ,that you repeat yourself so often with the same words,

    Read your quotes always the same answers to all ,well a men can only give and share what he received from above ,right ??? Yes ,even if it is not much.


    i think you should go back to school.

    the reason why i am always repeating my words is bec you do not know how to understand my words. you are like a grade 1 student who needs repetitive explanations..

    paul said that Christ did not consider equality with God something to be grasped and made himself nothing..

    dont you understand that??

    read your bible well


    jamin

    yes you should use your own advice for a change ,and go back to school,

    Paul is not a liar ,but you are not understanding what he really says

    #315091
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (carmel @ Oct. 08 2012,00:10)
    [quote=terraricca,Oct. 06 2012,15:50][/quote]

    Quote
    All powers are given by God almighty not his son,even the son power has been given to him by the father,

    Terraricca,

    READ:

    John 16:15

    ALL THINGS

    that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall

    TAKE OF MINE

    and shall shew it unto you.

    Luke 10:22 All things are delivered to me of my Father:

    and no man knoweth

    WHO THE SON IS

    , but the Father; and

    WHO THE FATHER IS,

    but the Son, and he to whom

    THE SON  (NOT THE FATHER)

    will reveal him.

    CONCLUSION:

    I KNOW:

    THE SAME ALMIGHTY GOD!!!

    THE  FATHER

    THE SON

    THE HOLY SPIRIT

    IN FULL GOD'S ATTRIBUTES!!!

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles


    carmel

    you can also add this scriptures;

    Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
    Col 1:16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.
    Col 1:17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.
    Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy.
    Col 1:19 For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him,
    Col 1:20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.

    Mt 28:18 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.

    Eph 1:20 which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms,
    Eph 1:21 far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come.
    Eph 1:22 And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church,
    Eph 1:23 which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.

    Phil 2:9 Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
    and gave him the name that is above every name,
    Phil 2:10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
    in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
    Phil 2:11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord,
    to the glory of God the Father.

    please get out of your false beleives :)

    #315095
    carmel
    Participant

    Quote
    please stop I am rolling on the ground,

       

    Terraricca,

    KEEP ON ROLLING:

    Colossians 2:2That their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgement of

    THE MYSTERY OF GOD

    AND OF THE FATHER

    AND OF CHRIST

    8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

    9 FOR IN HIM DWELLETH :

    ALL THE FULLNESS OF THE GODHEAD BODILY

    SO I REPEAT AND ROLL:

    THE SON'S SPIRIT IS JESUS' FLESH BODY:.

    THE HOLY SPIRIT IS JESUS' SOUL.

    THE FATHER IS JESUS' SPIRIT WHICH DWELLS IN HIS SOUL!!!

    A TRIUNE GOD ALL IN ONE FLESH BODY OF JESUS.

    THE MYSTERY OF GOD, OF THE FATHER, AND OF CHRIST.

    READ ABOVE AGAIN AND

    ROLL, ROLL. ROLL,

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles

    #315098
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (carmel @ Oct. 06 2012,16:03)
    But as a spirit HE IS GOD.


    No Charles,

    Jesus as a spirit being is still the Son of God Almighty – not God Almighty Himself.

    (We really appreciate the way you now post just the part you are responding to, Charles. Thanks for continuing to do it that way! :) )

    #315099
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Oct. 06 2012,19:32)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 05 2012,07:55)
    Frank,

    I worship and serve as God ONLY Jehovah – the God of gods who created the heavens, the earth, and everything in them, including His Son Jesus Christ.

    You should now be very clear on this matter, and I should therefore never have to read another post from you where you talk about me worshipping “gods”.

    YOUKNOWWHATYOUDO,

    If one says “I worship and serve as GOD ONLY Jehovah …” that would be ONE “god” and then “… including His Son Jesus Christ.” whom I have also heard you MANY times also refer to as “GOD”, that then would clearly be two “GODS” by my calculation and not not that you “… worship and serve as God ONLY Jehovah” as you have so erroneously calculated. I can only conclude that now it is very clear on this matter that I was in fact correct and can say from here on out that you are worshipping “GODSPLURAL and not “GODSINGULAR.


    Frank,

    I often wonder about the state of your brain.  Satan is called a god in scripture, but I don't worship and serve him as my God.

    Jesus is called a god in scripture, but I don't worship and serve him as my God.

    Deborah was called a god in scripture, but I don't worship and serve her as my God.  

    Most sensible people can understand that “indeed there are many gods and lords, both in heaven and on earth”, but I only worship and serve as my God Jehovah the Father.

    Apparently you are not “most sensible people”, Frank.  So let's just suffice to say:  I don't worship anyone as God except for Jehovah the Father.  Don't ever again post that I do, because lying against other members here breaks the rules of the site, and warrants tiles.

    Are we clear now?

    #315100
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (carmel @ Oct. 06 2012,23:45)
    The logical reasoning does not work with GOD.


    Charles,

    Isn't that statement really just something you guys say when you're trying to justify the fact that your doctrine is completely illogical?

    Is Jehovah the God of confusion, Charles?  Why in the world won't you just accept the fact that we have but one God, the Father, and that one God has a SON named Jesus – (who is NOT the God he is the Son of)?

    At least you are in good company while trying to teach others the art of confusion:

    The Encyclopedia Americana notes that the doctrine of the Trinity is considered to be “beyond the grasp of human reason.”

    Monsignor Eugene Clark says: “God is one, and God is three. Since there is nothing like this in creation, we cannot understand it, but only accept it.”

    Cardinal John O’Connor states: “We know that it is a very profound mystery, which we don’t begin to understand.”

    And Pope John Paul II speaks of “the inscrutable mystery of God the Trinity.”

    Thus, A Dictionary of Religious Knowledge says: “Precisely what that doctrine is, or rather precisely how it is to be explained, Trinitarians are not agreed among themselves.”

    #315101
    terraricca
    Participant

    carmel

    Quote
    THE SON'S SPIRIT IS JESUS' FLESH BODY:.

    THE HOLY SPIRIT IS JESUS' SOUL.

    this is folly to the true believers ,

    this is part of the spirit of the antichrist ,rejecting the son of God

    #315102
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (carmel @ Oct. 06 2012,23:56)

    Quote (mikeboll @ 64)
    jammin, HOW MANY Almighty Gods exist?

    Mike,

    ONE almighty God……………


    Yes Charles,

    “ONE” is the correct answer. Now that we agree there is but ONE Almighty God, can we likewise agree that this ONE Almighty God has a Son named Jesus?

    #315105
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (Ed J @ Oct. 07 2012,07:40)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 07 2012,05:16)

    Quote (jammin @ Oct. 05 2012,20:17)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 06 2012,10:06)
    [quote=mikeboll64,Oct. 05 2012,07:58]since he WAS existing in the form of his God,


    where can you read that paul said he was existing in the form of HIS God??

    what did paul said in phil 2.6
    1. form of HIS God
    or
    2. form of God?

    those two sentences are not the same mike.

    do not put your own words in the bible

    i will give you a chance mike. although it is very obvious that you are adding words in phil 2.6

    where can you read that paul said in phil 2.6 that Christ was existing in the form of HIS God


    Surely you must be kidding, right?   ???

    jammin, are you unaware that our God is also the God of Jesus?  Do you need me to point you to those scriptures?

    Also, why not address the actual point I made about Jesus not being “the unchanged one”?


    Hi Jammin,

    How does (Mike) adding “his” into the text change the meaning?         <– please explain
    Yes, I know Mike, he will likely offer only a derogatory 'snap comment' instead of an explanation.  :D

    “Snap comment” ~ Ed J    (I may be the originator of this, Ha Ha, not likely though)


    Hi Ed,

    He is now trying to DIVERT away from the actual point I'm making by saying, The Bible doesn't say those exact words in that exact order, Mike. :laugh:

    But we know that Jesus spoke of returning to “my God and your God”.

    And we know Jesus called Jehovah “my God” four times in one verse. (Rev 3:12)

    And we know that Paul many times gave thanks and praise to “the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ”.

    So the only question that remains is: Was Jesus existing in the form of HIS God? Or in the form of some OTHER God?

    Which one, jammin?

    #315126
    carmel
    Participant

    [quote=mikeboll64,Oct. 08 2012,05:26][/quote]

    Quote
    Why in the world won't you just accept the fact that we have but one God, the Father, and that one God has a SON named Jesus – (who is NOT the God he is the Son of)?
     

    Mike,

    I am afraid I have to post again this:

    Colossians: 2: 2 That their hearts may be comforted, being instructed in charity, and unto all riches of fulness of understanding, unto the knowledge of the mystery of God the Father and of Christ Jesus: 3 In whom are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge

    2:9:For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead corporeally;

    SINCE YOU CONSIDER YOUR WORLDLY WISDOM IS SUPERIOR TO GOD'S, EXPLAIN WHAT IT MEANS:

    THE KNOWLEDGE OF THE MYSTERY :

    OF GOD THE FATHER

    AND OF CHRIST

    SINCE  IT IS A MYSTERY, AND NOT AS SIMPLE AS IT IS IN OUR CARNAL TERMS, AND IN YOUR WORLDLY WISDOM.

    EXPLAIN IN GOD'S TERMS :

    WHAT IT MEANS:  

    FATHER !!!

    AND

    SON !!!

    ALSO:

    IN HIM DWELLETH ALL THE FULNESS OF THE GODHEAD BODILY!!!

    EXPLAIN WHAT THE GODHEAD CONSISTS OF!!!

    NOW READ ALSO:

    Luke 5:21 And the scribes and Pharisees began to think, saying: Who is this who speaketh blasphemies? Who can forgive sins, but God alone?

    WHO CAN FORGIVE SINS, BUT

    GOD ALONE

    SO JESUS IS GOD IN FLESH!!!

    THE TRIUNE GOD IN ONE BODY OF JESUS CHRIST.

    TO CONCLUDE MIKE,

    CONTRADICT ME ON EVER ASPECT WITHIN MY POST, NOT JUST ON A PARTICULAR ONE WHICH

    have been debated for centuries by theologians and scholars.

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles

    #315127
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Jammin,
    I totally agree with you here! The word 'His' is not in the Greek and should not be added. Just like if it said that Jesus existed in the form of man compared to Jesus existed in the form of 'his' man. God here in Phil 2:6 seems to be a particular type of form and not a particular person.

    Take care, jammin!

    #315128
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Hi Charles,
    I asked Mike how many 'theos' are to be known, believed in, served, honored, and praised in order to have eternal salvation. He could not seem to answer that.

    Take care!

    #315140
    jammin
    Participant

    Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 08 2012,08:51)
    Jammin,
    I totally agree with you here! The word 'His' is not in the Greek and should not be added. Just like if it said that Jesus existed in the form of man compared to Jesus existed in the form of 'his' man. God here in Phil 2:6 seems to be a particular type of form and not a particular person.

    Take care, jammin!


    yes sis kathi :)
    and i am very sure that mike can not give us any translation that paul said form of HIS God.
    that is just an added word from MIKE LOL

    we know that mike is really a false teacher
    LOL

    #315141
    jammin
    Participant

    Quote (Ed J @ Oct. 08 2012,00:40)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 07 2012,05:16)

    Quote (jammin @ Oct. 05 2012,20:17)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 06 2012,10:06)
    [quote=mikeboll64,Oct. 05 2012,07:58]since he WAS existing in the form of his God,


    where can you read that paul said he was existing in the form of HIS God??

    what did paul said in phil 2.6
    1. form of HIS God
    or
    2. form of God?

    those two sentences are not the same mike.

    do not put your own words in the bible

    i will give you a chance mike. although it is very obvious that you are adding words in phil 2.6

    where can you read that paul said in phil 2.6 that Christ was existing in the form of HIS God


    Surely you must be kidding, right?   ???

    jammin, are you unaware that our God is also the God of Jesus?  Do you need me to point you to those scriptures?

    Also, why not address the actual point I made about Jesus not being “the unchanged one”?


    Hi Jammin,

    How does (Mike) adding “his” into the text change the meaning?         <– please explain
    Yes, I know Mike, he will likely offer only a derogatory 'snap comment' instead of an explanation.  :D

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
    “Snap comment” ~ Ed J    (I may be the originator of this, Ha Ha, not likely though)


    dont you understand english??

    form of HIS GOD is not the same as FORM OF GOD

    can you say FORM OF HIS HUMAN? LOL

    paul is talking about nature in phil 2.6 and not a particular person

    #315142
    jammin
    Participant

    t

    may GOD open your heart and eyes

    #315143
    kerwin
    Participant

    carmel,

    Godhead means what is in God's head.

    You can certainly use that to evade explaining why the idea of the Trinity is so irrational.  

    Of course where does that leave Paul and his reason?

    Since your teaching is irrational because parts of it are in the head of God why bother reasoning?

    In fact why come up with a teaching that is not explicitly written in Scripture as doing so involves reason.

    Your teaching is not explicitly written in Scripture but has evolved via a semblance of reason over time.

    For example of a similar statement and explanation, I declare that the teaching you believe in is a lie.  I do not need to explain why that is as that explanation is in the head of Jehovah.

    #315146
    Ed J
    Participant

    Quote (jammin @ Oct. 08 2012,12:06)

    Quote (Ed J @ Oct. 08 2012,00:40)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 07 2012,05:16)

    Quote (jammin @ Oct. 05 2012,20:17)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 06 2012,10:06)
    [quote=mikeboll64,Oct. 05 2012,07:58]since he WAS existing in the form of his God,


    where can you read that paul said he was existing in the form of HIS God??

    what did paul said in phil 2.6
    1. form of HIS God
    or
    2. form of God?

    those two sentences are not the same mike.

    do not put your own words in the bible

    i will give you a chance mike. although it is very obvious that you are adding words in phil 2.6

    where can you read that paul said in phil 2.6 that Christ was existing in the form of HIS God


    Surely you must be kidding, right?   ???

    jammin, are you unaware that our God is also the God of Jesus?  Do you need me to point you to those scriptures?

    Also, why not address the actual point I made about Jesus not being “the unchanged one”?


    Hi Jammin,

    How does (Mike) adding “his” into the text change the meaning?         <– please explain
    Yes, I know Mike, he will likely offer only a derogatory 'snap comment' instead of an explanation.  :D

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
    “Snap comment” ~ Ed J    (I may be the originator of this, Ha Ha, not likely though)


    dont you understand english??

    form of HIS GOD is not the same as FORM OF GOD

    can you say FORM OF HIS HUMAN? LOL

    paul is talking about nature in phil 2.6 and not a particular person


    Hi Jammin,

    So your not going to tell us what the difference is?
    Did think so, because there isn't any difference.  :D

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

    #315157
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (jammin @ Oct. 08 2012,19:09)
    t

    may GOD open your heart and eyes


    Jamin

    If I am blind in my heart to God scriptures and can not see and understand Gods word ;

    then let God be my witness and yours, let him show who his really blind in his heart and mind.

    #315163
    carmel
    Participant

    [quote=mikeboll64,Oct. 08 2012,05:26][/quote]

    Quote
    Isn't that statement really just something you guys say when you're trying to justify the fact that your doctrine is completely illogical?

    Mike, you just have twisted my statement to suit your mentality.

    I SAID LOGICAL REASONING DOESN'T WORK WITH GOD!!!

    Also I posted a huge piece of scripture, and also stated what is clear illogical, regarding Jesus, THE ONLY TRUE VISIBLE GOD, purposely in order to be clear what I meant.

    You from the other hand FALSELY stated that I said:

    OUR DOCTRINE IS ILLOGICAL.

    NOW TO MY QUESTIONS:

    DO YOU BELIEVE THAT GOD  RESPECTED OUR LOGICAL REASONING IN ORDER TO REDEEM US???

    DO YOU BELIEVE THAT GOD RESPECTED THE LOGICAL REASONING REGARDING THE OT.SCRIPTURE I POSTED???

    DID GOD ADDED MORE SOLDIERS TO HIS ARMY IN ORDER TO BEAT HIS ENEMIES, OR DEDUCTED ALMOST TO NOTHING IN COMPARISON TO HIS ENEMY AND STILL WON THE BATTLE???

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles

    #315164
    carmel
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 08 2012,12:11)


    Quote
    Godhead means what is in God's head

    [QUOTE]

    Kerwin,

    Look up in the dictionary so you have some mature knowledge REGARDING THE WORD:

    GODHEAD

    WHEN IT IS A REFERENCE TO GOD.

    GOD IS A SPIRIT

    A SPIRIT HAS NO HEAD!!!

    NOT EVEN A BODY!!!

    JESUS CONFIRMED THIS!!!

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles

Viewing 20 posts - 10,701 through 10,720 (of 26,009 total)
  • You must be logged in to reply to this topic.

© 1999 - 2026 Heaven Net

Log in with your credentials

or    

Forgot your details?

Create Account