John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 10,481 through 10,500 (of 26,009 total)
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  • #313754
    Ed J
    Participant

    Quote (carmel @ Sep. 23 2012,04:56)
    Jeremiah 32:27 Behold, I am the LORD, (JESUS CHRIST)the God of all flesh:(GLORIFIED AS GOD IN BOTH SPIRIT AND FLESH)

    is there any thing too hard for me?


    Hi Charles,

    This is not too difficult to understand:

    “Behold, I JEHOVAH, the God of all flesh:
      is there any thing too hard for me?” (Jer 32:27)

              JEHOVAH is “God”
          Jesus is “God's Son”

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

    #313760
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 20 2012,22:30)

    Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 19 2012,03:19)
    Kathi,

    That passage is speaking of the Spirit by personifying it……………


    John 1:18 speaks about Jesus – just like the rest of John 1.


    Mike,

    Your words break Scripture as 1 Corinthians 2:11 makes clear that it is only the Spirit and those it reveals them to, that know the things of God.  The Spirit (the one) has the knowledge and shares it with Jesus (the man) and through him with all men.  The knowledge does not start at Jesus; but at the Spirit; which is a part of God, as a man's spirit is a part of him.

    #313766
    limjunus
    Participant

    Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 23 2012,00:20)

    Quote (limjunus @ Sep. 23 2012,00:44)

    Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 22 2012,13:29)
    Limjunus,

    Quote
    Terricca,

    post: JesuS Christ is a true god by his godly birth being the only begotten son of THE ONLY ALMIGHTY GOD AND TRUE GOD WERE LIVE BEGINS OF .and so father of all.

    The Bible is very silent about what you had declared, that Jesus Christ is true god. That's your own understanding and conclusion.

    For being the so called begotten Son of God, it does not mean that Jesus Christ a true god.  He become begotten Son of God, because he is the only human being (man) hath been faultless (sinless), meant he had the same quality of God, holy.

    The holy one of God.(Ref: Mark 1:24, Luke 1:35 NKJV)  

    Jesus has been created by God through holy means, through the power of the Holy Spirit not through the normal processing of the husband and wife or else Jesus could not be made an extra-ordinary-man. Through the human flesh by a virgin woman, Mary. (Ref: Matthew 1:18-20 NKJV)

    If you are belong to the chosen people of God, a part of the insider and not to be deemed outsider, you must not recognize any true God, except the Father. (Ref: Mark 4:11 TEV / 1 Cor. 8:7 NKJV)

    You must be check it out if you are belong to the chosen people of God, and not belong to the outsiders.

    God bless you.

    so according to you Christ his a new creation ???

    Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
    Col 1:16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.
    Col 1:17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

    could you explain why Paul says that ALL THINGS WERE CREATED THROUGH CHRIST VISIBLE AND INVISIBLE and that  CHRIST WAS BEFORE ALL THINGS???


    Terricca,

    I did not say “new creation” what I have said, created through holy means….at the ends time. Ref: 1 Peter 1:20.

    Apostle really meant of it is, Everything has been created by God, through and for him. Everything shall be given to Jesus  Christ at the end time. He is the heirs of everything. (Ref: Hebrews 1:1-2 / 1 Cor. 15:27-28.


    limjunus

    Quote
    Apostle really meant of it is, Everything has been created by God, through and for him. Everything shall be given to Jesus  Christ at the end time. He is the heirs of everything.

    is your explanation not confusing ???

    1Co 15:27 For he “has put everything under his feet.” Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ.
    1Co 15:28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.

    scriptures says that he (Christ) will become subject to his father ,right ? yes, this is different than in your comment above is it not ???

    NOW YOU STILL DID NOT EXPLAIN MY QUESTIONS IN MY PREVEOUS QUOTE TO YOU WHY IS THAT ???


    Charlie,

    I advice you to read it again. Focus on everything created by God. The Father, created everything because of and for His son Jesus Christ.

    The word “everything” clarified by apostle Paul, that the Father is not included with the matters to be placed under his (Jesus) feet, but instead, the son will be below his Father.

    In other verse of the Bible, It was specifically draw the clear line; “the husbands is the head of wives, Christ is the head of every man and God is the head of Christ. Showing that the Father, is above all.

    #313768
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 20 2012,10:21)

    Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 19 2012,04:19)

    Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 19 2012,11:29)

    Quote (limjunus @ Sep. 18 2012,23:40)

    Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 19 2012,02:10)
    limjunus,
    Jesus IS the true only begotten God.


    Lightenup,

    The rightful way to express is, Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God and [/B][U]”not begotten God”.

    :D


    limjunus,

    Scripture disagrees with you:
    John 1:18
    New American Standard Bible (©1995)
    No one has seen God at any time; [b]the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.

    :D


    Kathi,

    That passage is speaking of the Spirit by personifying it; which is why it uses the word “one”.  It is the Spirit that knows the deep things of God; and those to whom the Spirit reveals them.  Jesus is his primary student and the man by whom all others come to know God.


    Hi Kerwin,
    I do not see anything like what you say in the early church's understanding of this verse. The Son is said to be the 'firstborn' and the Holy Spirit is not said to the 'firstborn.'

    God bless!


    Kathi,

    I know little of such writings you speak of but I do know Scripture declares the Spirit is the only one that knows the things of God and reveals them to whom it chooses.  

    Jesus is the only man that knows the things of God because the Spirit revealed them to him.  In union with the Spirit he then reveals them to who he chooses.

    There cannot be two that know the things of God until the Spirit has revealed them to the second. At that point there are two that know, not one.  John 1:18 speaks of the first one in 1  Corinthians 2:11 and clearly that is also the one John 1:18 speaks of; and therefore he is calling the Spirit the Son.

    Perhaps it will help to think of it this way; The Spirit personified as the Son comes to dwell in Jesus, thus making him the Son of God.

    #313769
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (limjunus @ Sep. 23 2012,20:39)

    Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 23 2012,00:20)

    Quote (limjunus @ Sep. 23 2012,00:44)

    Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 22 2012,13:29)
    Limjunus,

    Quote
    Terricca,

    post: JesuS Christ is a true god by his godly birth being the only begotten son of THE ONLY ALMIGHTY GOD AND TRUE GOD WERE LIVE BEGINS OF .and so father of all.

    The Bible is very silent about what you had declared, that Jesus Christ is true god. That's your own understanding and conclusion.

    For being the so called begotten Son of God, it does not mean that Jesus Christ a true god.  He become begotten Son of God, because he is the only human being (man) hath been faultless (sinless), meant he had the same quality of God, holy.

    The holy one of God.(Ref: Mark 1:24, Luke 1:35 NKJV)  

    Jesus has been created by God through holy means, through the power of the Holy Spirit not through the normal processing of the husband and wife or else Jesus could not be made an extra-ordinary-man. Through the human flesh by a virgin woman, Mary. (Ref: Matthew 1:18-20 NKJV)

    If you are belong to the chosen people of God, a part of the insider and not to be deemed outsider, you must not recognize any true God, except the Father. (Ref: Mark 4:11 TEV / 1 Cor. 8:7 NKJV)

    You must be check it out if you are belong to the chosen people of God, and not belong to the outsiders.

    God bless you.

    so according to you Christ his a new creation ???

    Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
    Col 1:16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.
    Col 1:17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

    could you explain why Paul says that ALL THINGS WERE CREATED THROUGH CHRIST VISIBLE AND INVISIBLE and that  CHRIST WAS BEFORE ALL THINGS???


    Terricca,

    I did not say “new creation” what I have said, created through holy means….at the ends time. Ref: 1 Peter 1:20.

    Apostle really meant of it is, Everything has been created by God, through and for him. Everything shall be given to Jesus  Christ at the end time. He is the heirs of everything. (Ref: Hebrews 1:1-2 / 1 Cor. 15:27-28.


    limjunus

    Quote
    Apostle really meant of it is, Everything has been created by God, through and for him. Everything shall be given to Jesus  Christ at the end time. He is the heirs of everything.

    is your explanation not confusing ???

    1Co 15:27 For he “has put everything under his feet.” Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ.
    1Co 15:28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.

    scriptures says that he (Christ) will become subject to his father ,right ? yes, this is different than in your comment above is it not ???

    NOW YOU STILL DID NOT EXPLAIN MY QUESTIONS IN MY PREVEOUS QUOTE TO YOU WHY IS THAT ???


    Charlie,

    I advice you to read it again. Focus on everything created by God. The Father, created everything because of and for His son Jesus Christ.

    The word “everything” clarified by apostle Paul, that the Father is not included with the matters to be placed under his (Jesus) feet, but instead, the son will be below his Father.

    In other verse of the Bible, It was specifically draw the clear line; “the husbands is the head of wives, Christ is the head of every man and God is the head of Christ.  Showing that the Father, is above all.


    Homer,

    :D :D

    #313772
    limjunus
    Participant

    Quote (carmel @ Sep. 23 2012,04:56)
    Jeremiah 32:27 Behold, I am the LORD, (JESUS CHRIST)the God of all flesh:(GLORIFIED AS GOD IN BOTH SPIRIT AND FLESH)

    is there any thing too hard for me?

    ( THROUGH JESUS AS GOD /MAN DEFINITELY NOT) [/b]

    WHO IS GOD OF ALL FLESH, THE SON, THE FATHER OR BOTH???

    THEREFORE Jesus is our

    FATHER REGARDING OUR SPIRIT

    FATHER REGARDING OUR SOUL

    FATHER REGARDING OUR BODY


    Carmel,

    I brotherly advice you. Do not add with your own discretion to the written words of God.

    “Behold, I am the LORD, the God of all flesh. Is there anything too hard for Me? (Ref: Jer. 32:27 NKJV).

    That verse is shining the truth about Jesus Christ, the Son of God and also testifying that Jesus Christ is included to all the flesh.

    Here are the proofs from the Bible and not from me.

    “My fellow Israelites, listen to these words: Jesus from Nazareth was a very special MAN. God clearly showed this to you. He proved it by the miracles, wonders, and miraculous signs he did through Jesus. You all saw these things, so you know this is true. (rEF: aCTS 2:22 erv)

    5 For there is only one God and one Mediator who can reconcile God and humanity—the MAN Christ Jesus. (Ref: 1 Tim. 2:5 NKJV)

    2-3 Here’s how you test for the genuine Spirit of God. Everyone who confesses openly his faith in Jesus Christ—the Son of God, who came as an actual FLESH-and-BLOOD person—comes from God and belongs to God. And everyone who refuses to confess faith in Jesus has nothing in common with God. This is the spirit of antichrist that you heard was coming. Well, here it is, sooner than we thought!

    Charlie, do not counter the truth about it.

    #313776
    limjunus
    Participant

    Quote (carmel @ Sep. 23 2012,05:27)

    Quote
    The God, did not proclaimed that He shall be alone to be worship forever  He declared that He is the alone God, no more.

    Limjunus,

    Again,

    God himself to Moses made it clear that god is a jeleous God,

    and as a Jelous God he wants only to adore HIm!!

    So Jesus is God in flesh, God of all flesh so the Father will not be Jeleous to HImself in Jesus .

    Exodus 3:14 For thou shalt worship NO OTHER GOD: for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God


    The verses did not said that Jesus Christ is another God not to be worshiped.

    The verse is clarifying that we should worship no other God, except Him, the Father.

    If there is another God have been introduced, except the Father, we must not worship. But Jesus Christ is not God to be worshiped. Jesus Christ is a holy man of God, made Lord and savior by God. Ordering all the knees in heaven, and on earth and on the deep water of the sea, should be bow down to Jesus Christ name.

    Do not forget, God, allowing Jesus Christ to be worship. Read again my previous post with some Bible verses supporting what I am posting.

    Our whole duty to God, is to obey His wills.

    If God, commanding us to worship His son, we must obey it without any reservation.

    #313777
    limjunus
    Participant

    Quote (carmel @ Sep. 23 2012,06:14)
    [quote=limjunus,Sep. 22 2012,16:28][/quote]

    Quote
    God is only one, Alone and  all matters in heaven and on earth and on in a deep water of the sea, all originated from God, that's why He has been introduced as the Father of all.

    Limjunus,

    YES, BUT YOU ALWAYS HALF RIGHT, IT IS TOO DIFFICULT FOR YOU TO BE THE WITNESS OF THE PURE  TRUTH!!

    WITH YOUR STATEMENT ABOVE YOU LEFT OUT ONE OF THE THREE MOST FUNDAMENTAL SPIRIT ELEMENTS

    JESUS CHRIST

    ALL THE ABOVE STATEMENT YOU DECLARED HAS BEEN ACHIEVED

    THROUGH JESUS SPIRIT

    IN JESUS SPIRIT

    FOR JESUS SPIRIT.

    THE PURE TRUTH

    Isaiah 44:24 Thus saith the LORD,( WHO??? THE FATHER, THE SON, OR BOTH) thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;

    Hebrews 1:10 And, Thou, Lord, (THE SON, THE FATHER, OR BOTH) in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:

    Now read both scriptures

    WHO IS LORD??? THE FATHER, THE SON , OR BOTH???

    ALL HEBREWS 1:1:14 IS A DIRECT REFERENCE TO JESUS CHRIST THE ONLY LORD:

    DO YOU DENY THAT JESUS IS THE CREATOR IN FULL POWER BY THE HOLY SPIRIT FROM THE FATHER, WHILE THE FATHER REMAINED IN HEAVEN???

    OR  IF YOU LIKE THE FATHER HIMSELF THROUGH THE HOLY SPIRIT HIDDEN IN JESUS' SPIRIT THE MEDIATOR TO CREATE ALL THROUGH HIM .

    I AM IN THE FATHER, AND THE FATHER IN ME!!

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles


    Charles,

    You are the one to be deemed not a worthy witness, because you are corrupting the words of God by adding or inserting your own understanding.

    Be careful in using the words of God. Do not subtract or add any words of yours into it.

    Your own human reasoning and false arguments must be rejected and destroyed.

    #313778
    limjunus
    Participant

    Outside the perimeter of the kingdom of God here on earth (the chosen people/ the true christian) There are many groups of people; other professing christian, some called pagans, are having their own recognized God/s; in the form of woods, metal, stones and other similar objects been made graven images, including the so called, Baal.

    These God/s has been clarified by the Bible “false gods” or “god” with the small letter. Using the small letter is to distinguish and defining them that there are not true God.

    #313780
    carmel
    Participant

    [quote=limjunus,Sep. 23 2012,15:53][/quote]

    Quote
    THE PURE TRUTH

    Isaiah 44:24 Thus saith the LORD,( WHO??? THE FATHER, THE SON, OR BOTH) thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;

    Hebrews 1:10 And, Thou, Lord, (THE SON, THE FATHER, OR BOTH) in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:

    Now read both scriptures

    WHO IS LORD??? THE FATHER, THE SON , OR BOTH???

    ALL HEBREWS 1:1:14 IS A DIRECT REFERENCE TO JESUS CHRIST THE ONLY LORD:

    DO YOU DENY THAT JESUS IS THE CREATOR IN FULL POWER BY THE HOLY SPIRIT FROM THE FATHER, WHILE THE FATHER REMAINED IN HEAVEN???

    OR  IF YOU LIKE THE FATHER HIMSELF THROUGH THE HOLY SPIRIT HIDDEN IN JESUS' SPIRIT THE MEDIATOR TO CREATE ALL THROUGH HIM .

    I AM IN THE FATHER, AND THE FATHER IN ME!!

    Limjunus,

    Would you be kind enough to categorically comment on the above, and also answer wherever I have an interrogation MARK, in order to be aware where I am parallel with your statement hereunder:

    You are the one to be deemed not a worthy witness, because you are corrupting the words of God by adding or inserting your own understanding.

    Your own human reasoning and false arguments must be rejected and destroyed.

    REFUSING TO COMMENT AND TO STRENGHTEN YOUR ARGUMENT USING SCRIPTURES,IS A PROOF THAT YOU ARE NOT IN THE TRUTH.

    IN THE SAME TIME REFUSING TO LEAD OTHERS TO THE TRUTH, IF YOU ARE CONSIDERING YOURSELF IN THE TRUTH, YOU WOULD BE REJECTING YOUR OWN BELIEF,WHICH IS AN OBLIGATION AS A CHRISTIAN TO LEAD OTHERS TO THE TRUTH.

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles

    #313782
    carmel
    Participant

    [quote=limjunus,Sep. 23 2012,15:33][/quote]

    Quote
    The verse is clarifying that we should worship no other God, except Him, the Father.

    Limjunus,

    Throughout the OT only the MYSTERIOUS word GOD was used,and although we are aware that GOD IN JESUS SPIRIT WAS IN ACTION, HUMANS WHERE UNAWARE OF WHO WAS THE RIGHT GOD.

    EVEN MOSES HIMSELF WAS FRUSTRATED SINCE HE REFUSED TO OBEY HIM, AND EVEN NEARLY BEING KILLED  BY GOD, NOTWITHSTANDING THE FACT THAT THIS GOD HAD A BATTLE WITH MOSES TO CONVINCE HIM TO GO LIBERATE THE JEWS!!

    In  Exodus the word FATHER does not exist.

    The title of the FATHER for GOD it was introduced by JESUS.

    I repeat what I said in my post and you ignored completely:

    THAT PARTICULAR PERSON WHO WAS HEALED ADORED JESUS, AND IN THAT MOMENT HE RISKED OF BEING STONED TO DEATH FOR DOING SO IN THOSE DAYS.

    SO HE CONFIRMED THAT JESUS IS GOD IN FLESH

    PEACE AND LOVE IN JESUS

    CHARLES

    #313783
    carmel
    Participant

    [quote=limjunus,Sep. 23 2012,14:16][/quote]

    Quote
    I brotherly advice you. Do not add with your own discretion to the written words of God.

    Limjunus,

    In the name of Jesus the TRUTH,ANSWER THESE:

    DOES THE FATHER GOD HAS A SOUL???

    IS THE FATHER A SPIRIT BEING ONLY???

    PEACE AND LOVE IN JESUS

    CHARLES

    #313785
    jammin
    Participant

    Quote (limjunus @ Sep. 21 2012,17:13)

    Quote (limjunus @ Sep. 21 2012,17:05)

    Quote (jammin @ Sep. 21 2012,11:54)
    limjunus said:
    Yes, God, is Lord for being the only true God.

    Jesus Christ, is only Lord, for being the only head of the Church, not for being the one and only true God.

    where can you read in 1 cor 8.6 that paul said Christ is the only LORD for being the only head of the church?
    ill wait for you version boy LOL

    therefore if i am going to follow your argument again, the father is Lord to you and Christ is Lord to you, you have 2 Lords! LOL
    but paul said ONE LORD, Christ!

    if i will follow your argument boy, that will be the result. LOL

    you believe paul said the father is the only God and therefore Christ is not God!
    LOL

    what an illogical reason you have boy LOL


    Jammin,

    Therefore, you are showing your ignoramus here in Heaven Net, concerning the classification of the statements.

    You really do not know what is the meaning of Categorically, emphatically, metaphorically, symbolically, literally statement and so on.

    Excuses me. You should not be ready here in heaven Net discussion.

    You must be finished first your schooling regarding how to classify the statements.

    Before you can launch another question, will you please answer our's.

    Did the Bible said that the one and only true God, is the Father of Jesus Christ?  Ref: John 17:1-3 / 1 Cor. 8:4,6 NKJV.

    Choose:   Yes or No?

    It is my turn now.


    Jammin,

    Do you know how to classify the statement?


    therefore you cant read your imagination that paul said in 1 cor 8.6 Christ is Lord for being the head of the church etc

    make your own version LOL

    #313786
    jammin
    Participant

    limjunus,

    i do not need imaginations here. if you say something you must prove it.
    you must me your words in the bible. you want people to believe you but your doctrine has no support in the bible. why dont you make your own bible that all verses will support your illusion LOL

    you are not telling the whole truth boy. LOL
    you want illusion,imagination, and dreams. LOL

    you cant change the truth of the bible. the bible said Christ is God!
    many verses support that doctrine that Christ is God. the apostles believe that and the early christians.

    #313787
    jammin
    Participant

    Quote (limjunus @ Sep. 21 2012,17:58)
    Jammin, post. “where can you read in 1 cor 8.6 that paul said Christ is the only LORD for being the only head of the church?
    ill wait for you version boy LOL”

    You can not read it with 1 Cor. 8:6,


    thanks for your honest answer. LOL

    you are really a false teacher boy LOL

    you are adding your words in 1  cor 8.6. next time make your own version LOL

    #313805
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Quote (carmel @ Sep. 22 2012,01:03)

    Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 22 2012,15:24)
    limjunus,

    I do believe that I as well as jammin believe in the Nicene Creed as stated here:


    I believe in one God,
    the Father Almighty,
    maker of heaven and earth,
    and of all things visible and invisible;

    And in one Lord Jesus Christ,
    the only begotten Son of God,
    begotten of his Father before all worlds,
    God of God, Light of Light,
    very God of very God,
    begotten, not made,
    being of one substance with the Father;
    by whom all things were made;
    who for us men and for our salvation
      came down from heaven,
    and was incarnate by the Holy Ghost
      of the Virgin Mary,
      and was made man;
    and was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate;
    he suffered and was buried;
    and the third day he rose again
      according to the Scriptures,
    and ascended into heaven,
    and sitteth on the right hand of the Father;
    and he shall come again, with glory,
      to judge both the quick and the dead;
    whose kingdom shall have no end.

    And I believe in the Holy Ghost the Lord, and Giver of Live,
    who proceedeth from the Father [and the Son];
    who with the Father and the Son together
      is worshiped and glorified;
    who spake by the Prophets.
    And I believe one holy Catholic and Apostolic Church;
    I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins;
    and I look for the resurrection of the dead,
       and the life of the world to come. AMEN.

    Do you disagree with any part/parts of this?


    Quote
    I do believe that I as well as jammin believe in the Nicene Creed as stated here:

    Lightenup

    I also believe so, in full .

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles


    Charles,
    That's wonderful that we agree on this!

    Peace and unity in truth is God's desire :)

    #313807
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Quote (limjunus @ Sep. 22 2012,02:49)

    Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 22 2012,15:24)
    limjunus,

    I do believe that I as well as jammin believe in the Nicene Creed as stated here:


    I believe in one God,
    the Father Almighty,
    maker of heaven and earth,
    and of all things visible and invisible;

    And in one Lord Jesus Christ,
    the only begotten Son of God,
    begotten of his Father before all worlds,
    God of God, Light of Light,
    very God of very God,
    begotten, not made,
    being of one substance with the Father;
    by whom all things were made;
    who for us men and for our salvation
      came down from heaven,
    and was incarnate by the Holy Ghost
      of the Virgin Mary,
      and was made man;
    and was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate;
    he suffered and was buried;
    and the third day he rose again
      according to the Scriptures,
    and ascended into heaven,
    and sitteth on the right hand of the Father;
    and he shall come again, with glory,
      to judge both the quick and the dead;
    whose kingdom shall have no end.

    And I believe in the Holy Ghost the Lord, and Giver of Live,
    who proceedeth from the Father [and the Son];
    who with the Father and the Son together
      is worshiped and glorified;
    who spake by the Prophets.
    And I believe one holy Catholic and Apostolic Church;
    I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins;
    and I look for the resurrection of the dead,
       and the life of the world to come. AMEN.

    Do you disagree with any part/parts of this?


    Lightenup,

    I am firmly stand to disagree.

    That is your beliefs and everyone in this world is entitle to any belief, as long he is responsible to it at any cost.

    As we have aware that the whole world is under the Satan's ruled.

    The main mission of the true preachers of God, is to rescue the sons and daughters of the Almighty God, from the bondage of sins … rescuing and transferring them from the kingdom of darkness to the lightness kingdom of God through and with His son Jesus Christ.

    The power of God, for the salvation of souls is the righteousness of God, the gospel of Christ.

    Limjunus,
    Would you mind making the parts in that creed bold that you don't agree with. Certainly you don't disagree with everything  ???

    Thanks!

    #313815
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Sep. 21 2012,18:52)
    Please consider the following study link which follows the author's quote where the author concludes “The evidence at hand is inconclusive at best. …” concerning Yahchanan [John] 1:18:


    I agree.  Going off of the information we currently have on the subject, the truth of the matter is inconclusive.

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Sep. 21 2012,18:52)
    My stance would be IF “the only begotten God” were a more accurate translation than “the only begotten Son“, then the word “God” or “god” would simply be in reference to “power (authority), strength, or might”


    I agree with this also.  Jesus being called “el” and “theos” in scripture does NOT mean he is the Most High God.  But, after all, the words “el” and “theos” DO refer to ones who have “power, strength, and might”.  And there are MANY of those taught about in scripture………….. and One who is the God OF those ones.

    #313816
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (limjunus @ Sep. 22 2012,00:03)
    Mike, here your question.limjunis, how can Jehovah be “the God OF gods” if there exist no other gods for Him to be the God OF?   Please give a DIRECT answer to this question.

    The word “the God of gods” is an “emphatically or categorically or literally statement. And the complete thoughts or understanding has been taken is describing that the so called “gods” is not the true God, to be recognized.


    The Hebrew and Greek have no such phrases as “so-called gods” or “false gods”.  Nor do those texts have “gods” in quotation marks.  

    When Moses and Jehovah speak of the gods of Egypt, they are LITERALLY speaking of gods of Egypt, ie: powerful spirit beings who were able to match three of the signs and wonders Jehovah did before Pharaoh.

    Your claim is that Jehovah is the God of “false gods” and the God of “idols”.  But we know that Jehovah is not the God of the dead, for Jesus tells us so.  So these gods that Jehovah is the God of MUST be living entities like demons and angels.  And in scripture, these kinds of entities are called gods.  Jesus and Satan are but two of the gods Jehovah is the God of.

    This is what the scriptures teach, limjunis.  If YOU want to re-write the scriptures to fit in with the politically correct people of today, then go ahead.  As for me, I will understand the scriptures the way they were actually written – to the best of my ability.  And there is no such thing as a “false god” or a “so-called god” according to those scriptures.

    When Paul tells me there are many gods and many lords, both in heaven and on earth, I believe him.

    #313817
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (limjunus @ Sep. 22 2012,00:19)
    Mike here is the part of your post.

    Quote (limjunus @ Sep. 20 2012,22:07)
    You have two option: Yes or No. meaning, accept it or rejected it.
    And Jesus said ALL authority was given him.  That means God has no more authority at all, because it ALL was given to Jesus

    You have missed the right understanding Mike.


    I understand it just fine, limjunis.  I understand that “all authority” is EMPHATICAL, and not LITERAL.

    My point in all this is to teach you that “only true God” is also EMPHATICAL, and not LITERAL.

    You and Frank agree that if Jesus is called “god” in scripture, it just means he is mighty.  THAT'S WHAT I'VE BEEN SAYING ALL ALONG!  The words “el” and “theos” mean “mighty one”.  And Jesus being a god does NOT mean he is the Almighty God – or even equal to the Almighty God.

    But “only true God” certainly doesn't mean Jesus is a “false god” either.

    Perhaps someday you'll align your understanding with the scriptures, and stop trying to make the scriptures fit around the 21st century understanding of the word “god”.

    Until then, it seems to me that I've tried to educate you on the matter, and there's really nothing more I can do.

    peace and understanding,
    mike

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