John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 10,441 through 10,460 (of 26,009 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #313651
    limjunus
    Participant

    Quote (limjunus @ Sep. 21 2012,17:05)

    Quote (jammin @ Sep. 21 2012,11:54)
    limjunus said:
    Yes, God, is Lord for being the only true God.

    Jesus Christ, is only Lord, for being the only head of the Church, not for being the one and only true God.

    where can you read in 1 cor 8.6 that paul said Christ is the only LORD for being the only head of the church?
    ill wait for you version boy LOL

    therefore if i am going to follow your argument again, the father is Lord to you and Christ is Lord to you, you have 2 Lords! LOL
    but paul said ONE LORD, Christ!

    if i will follow your argument boy, that will be the result. LOL

    you believe paul said the father is the only God and therefore Christ is not God!
    LOL

    what an illogical reason you have boy LOL


    Jammin,

    Therefore, you are showing your ignoramus here in Heaven Net, concerning the classification of the statements.

    You really do not know what is the meaning of Categorically, emphatically, metaphorically, symbolically, literally statement and so on.

    Excuses me. You should not be ready here in heaven Net discussion.

    You must be finished first your schooling regarding how to classify the statements.

    Before you can launch another question, will you please answer our's.

    Did the Bible said that the one and only true God, is the Father of Jesus Christ?  Ref: John 17:1-3 / 1 Cor. 8:4,6 NKJV.

    Choose:   Yes or No?

    It is my turn now.


    Jammin,

    Do you know how to classify the statement?

    #313652
    limjunus
    Participant

    Jammin, post. “where can you read in 1 cor 8.6 that paul said Christ is the only LORD for being the only head of the church?
    ill wait for you version boy LOL”

    You mean, you are not accepting and you are not believing that Jesus Christ for being the one and only head of his church, is not the Lord, of the chosen people of God? Ref: Col. 1:18 / Eph. 5:23-28

    You mean, you are not accepting and you are not believing that Jesus, has been made Lord and Savior by his Father? (the true only God). Ref: Acts 2:36 NKJV.

    You have your choice. Yes or No?

    :D

    #313653
    carmel
    Participant

    [quote=limjunus,Sep. 21 2012,16:06][/quote]

    Quote
    Excuses me. My wisdom is not a worldly wisdom.  I am spoken the wisdom of God, from the Bible and not from me.

    Limjunus,

    With every respect:

    If you spoke the wisdom of God, why throughout your post you never mentioned anything regarding the truth of God which is in the entire of my post, and also never answered any of my questions, both in this post and in the previous one???

    What is there in my post which it seems to me not that comfortable to answer???

    I do not want to sound rather antagonistic, but when a person sends a post which it would have taken a great deal of reflections, reading, apart from other spiritual deeds in order to incessantly keep on discover GOD, and it is ignored completely by most of you, what is the real motive  of participating on heaven net?

    Just to chat, chat, and chat????

    2 Timothy 2:15 Carefully study to present thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly handling the word of truth.

    16
    But shun profane and vain babblings: for they grow much towards ungodliness.

    My aim is to discover the possible truth, which honestly admit heaven net had a substantial part in leading me to further light.

    So unless it is discussed with total honesty and love for Jesus, the only true both carnal/and spiritual, and also both visible and invisible God, the only way for us humans, in order to unite ourselves both NOW and on the last day for eternity, with the Father the only spiritual GOD, who is presently on his respective throne together and next to His achieved God through His  Son, all of us would remain in total darkness.

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles

    #313654
    Ed J
    Participant

    Quote (carmel @ Sep. 21 2012,17:32)
    So unless it is discussed with total honesty and love for Jesus, the only true both carnal/and spiritual, and also both visible and invisible God, the only way for us humans, in order to unite ourselves both NOW and on the last day for eternity, with the Father the only spiritual GOD, who is presently on his respective throne together and next to His achieved God through His  Son, all of us would remain in total darkness.

    Peace and love in Jesus
    Charles


    Hi Charles,

    That is a run-on sentence to the nth degree.

    Quote
    His achieved God through His  Son


    I would like you to explain what you mean by this part, OK?

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

    #313655
    limjunus
    Participant

    Jammin, post. “where can you read in 1 cor 8.6 that paul said Christ is the only LORD for being the only head of the church?
    ill wait for you version boy LOL”

    You can not read it with 1 Cor. 8:6, Metaphorically or figuratively statement meant you should figure it out from other information given by the Bible passages. 1 Cor. 8:6 is among so many, thousands of verses in the Bible.

    As you have aware, Jesus has been made both Lord and Savior by his God, the Father. Acts. 2:36 NKJV.

    Head, meant, Lord of the body or the church (church is the followers/believers of Christ and his God) Col. 1:18 NKJV. Eph. 1:22 5:23 / Hebrews 10:21 NKJV[B]

    It is my turn now.

    Do you believe that Jesus Christ is the only head of the church? Yes or No?

    Do you believe that the one and only true God, the Father, made Jesus, both Lord and Savior? Yes or No?

    Do you accept and do you believe that there is true God made both Lord and Savior by another true God? Yes or No?

    Jammin, it is my turn,… where is your answers?

    :D

    #313656
    limjunus
    Participant

    Quote (Ed J @ Sep. 21 2012,16:16)

    Quote (limjunus @ Sep. 21 2012,15:21)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 21 2012,03:28)

    Quote (limjunus @ Sep. 19 2012,01:13)
    Except, the Father, there is no true God or true god.


    Then to you, Jesus is a “false god”?  

    This MUST be the case, if you take the words “only true god” LITERALLY.


    Mike,

    “god” begin not in capital letter mean to me, “false God”.

    The Bible clearly stating that there is only one true God, the Father. ref. John 17:1-3 / 1 Cor. 8:6 NKJV.

    If you believe that Jesus Christ is “god”, it is your problem and not me.

    For me, Jesus Christ is not the true God, and he is also not god. He is “A MAN” anointed by the true and only true God, the Father.  

    He is a “holy man” become Lord and Savior, because God, made him so.

    As what the Bible said, even though the other people believing that there are so many lords and gods and they accepting them true lords and true gods, “BUT FOR US (the chosen people of God), THERE IS ONLY ONE GOD, the FATHER [of Jesus Christ].

    You have two option, just Yes or No, meaning: accepting or rejecting it.

    It's up to you.?


    Hi limjunus,

    John 17:3 αυτη δε εστιν η αιωνιος ζωη ινα γινωσκωσιν σε τον μονον αληθινον θεον και ον απεστειλας ιησουν χριστον.
    John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.


    Isaiah 28:9-13 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine?
    them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts. For precept must be upon
    precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:


    “Ye are even my witnesses.
     Is there 'a God' beside me? yea,
     there is 'no God'; I know not any.” (Isa 44:8)


    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org


    Ed j,

    In addition to Isaiah 44:8 here is another one.

    10 “Ye are My witnesses,” saith the Lord, “and My servant whom I have chosen, that ye may know and believe Me, and understand that I am He. Before Me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after Me. (Ref: Isaiah 43:10 KJ21)

    The statement is emphatically and categorically and not metaphorical or figuratively phrase.

    and here is the statement with the underline that we could consider metaphorically or figuratively spoken even though it is emphatically spoken.

    “I, even I, am the Lord, and [/U]besides Me there is no savior[U] (Ref: Isaiah 43:11 KJ21).

    Why the emphatically statement would be considered metaphorically spoken?

    Answer: The one and only true God, even though He said that “besides Me there is no savior”, It does not meant, He can not make and can not use anyone as his instrument to act as the indirect savior in behalf of God.

    God, did not spoken that “there is no Savior hath formed before me and or there is no more Savior to be formed after me.

    He hath used that emphatically or categorically statement when he is speaking about Himself for being the only God, and not for being the only Savior.[B]

    Now, here is again another question for Jammin.

    Did the Father, the one and only true God, hath formed or hath made Jesus Christ, a Lord?

    Here your choice: Yes or No?

    It is my turn and you should answer me Jammin.

    :D

    #313660
    limjunus
    Participant

    Quote (carmel @ Sep. 21 2012,17:32)
    [quote=limjunus,Sep. 21 2012,16:06][/quote]

    Quote
    Excuses me. My wisdom is not a worldly wisdom.  I am spoken the wisdom of God, from the Bible and not from me.

    Limjunus,

    With every respect:

    If you spoke the wisdom of God, why throughout your post you never mentioned anything regarding the truth of God which is in the entire of my post, and also never answered any of my questions, both in this post and in the previous one???

    What is there in my post which it seems to me not that comfortable to answer???

    I do not want to sound rather antagonistic, but when a person sends a post which it would have taken a great deal of reflections, reading, apart from other spiritual deeds in order to incessantly keep on discover GOD, and it is ignored completely by most of you, what is the real motive  of participating on heaven net?


    Carmel,

    Frankly speaking, I could not remember that you have questions on me that I did not answer or I had ignore it?

    Point of clarification: you have mentioned, ” I did not post the truth about God? … in my over 300 post, it were all containing the truth about God from the Bible.

    If you don't mind and with all respect either, can you re-post all your questions, so that I could answer it one by one.

    Thank you and God bless you.

    #313671
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (limjunus @ Sep. 21 2012,22:21)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 21 2012,03:28)

    Quote (limjunus @ Sep. 19 2012,01:13)
    Except, the Father, there is no true God or true god.


    Then to you, Jesus is a “false god”?  

    This MUST be the case, if you take the words “only true god” LITERALLY.


    Mike,

    “god” begin not in capital letter mean to me, “false God”.

    The Bible clearly stating that there is only one true God, the Father. ref. John 17:1-3 / 1 Cor. 8:6 NKJV.

    If you believe that Jesus Christ is “god”, it is your problem and not me.

    For me, Jesus Christ is not the true God, and he is also not god. He is “A MAN” anointed by the true and only true God, the Father.  

    He is a “holy man” become Lord and Savior, because God, made him so.

    As what the Bible said, even though the other people believing that there are so many lords and gods and they accepting them true lords and true gods, “BUT FOR US (the chosen people of God), THERE IS ONLY ONE GOD, the FATHER [of Jesus Christ].

    You have two option, just Yes or No, meaning: accepting or rejecting it.

    It's up to you.?


    I believe this questions seems not clear to me ;

    when we say ;THERE IS ONLY ONE GOD, the FATHER ;we mean that there is ONLY ONE TRUE GOD OVER ALL OF CREATION ,THE ORIGIN OF LIVE ,THE LIVE GIVER TO ALL,SUPREME AND ALMIGHTY ,WITH NO OTHER ALIKE .

    JesuS Christ is a true god by his godly birth being the only begotten son of THE ONLY ALMIGHTY GOD AND TRUE GOD WERE LIVE BEGINS OF .and so father of all.

    and I do not take in consideration any of the other so called gods ,they are true or false but only related to the true almighy God of creation.

    some are called gods on earth some  are called gods in heaven;

    title and actions may be different from each of them but the strongiest and the one above all the gods on earth and in heaven his THE TRUE ALMIGHTY GOD OF ALL CREATION ,ORIGIN OF LIVE IT SELF.AND FATHER OF CHRIST.

    #313680
    limjunus
    Participant

    Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 21 2012,22:43)

    Quote (limjunus @ Sep. 21 2012,22:21)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 21 2012,03:28)

    Quote (limjunus @ Sep. 19 2012,01:13)
    Except, the Father, there is no true God or true god.


    Then to you, Jesus is a “false god”?  

    This MUST be the case, if you take the words “only true god” LITERALLY.


    Mike,

    “god” begin not in capital letter mean to me, “false God”.

    The Bible clearly stating that there is only one true God, the Father. ref. John 17:1-3 / 1 Cor. 8:6 NKJV.

    If you believe that Jesus Christ is “god”, it is your problem and not me.

    For me, Jesus Christ is not the true God, and he is also not god. He is “A MAN” anointed by the true and only true God, the Father.  

    He is a “holy man” become Lord and Savior, because God, made him so.

    As what the Bible said, even though the other people believing that there are so many lords and gods and they accepting them true lords and true gods, “BUT FOR US (the chosen people of God), THERE IS ONLY ONE GOD, the FATHER [of Jesus Christ].

    You have two option, just Yes or No, meaning: accepting or rejecting it.

    It's up to you.?


    I believe this questions seems not clear to me ;

    when we say ;THERE IS ONLY ONE GOD, the FATHER ;we mean that there is ONLY ONE TRUE GOD OVER ALL OF CREATION ,THE ORIGIN OF LIVE ,THE LIVE GIVER TO ALL,SUPREME AND ALMIGHTY ,WITH NO OTHER ALIKE .

    JesuS Christ is a true god by his godly birth being the only begotten son of THE ONLY ALMIGHTY GOD AND TRUE GOD WERE LIVE BEGINS OF .and so father of all.

    and I do not take in consideration any of the other so called gods ,they are true or false but only related to the true almighy God of creation.

    some are called gods on earth some  are called gods in heaven;

    title and actions may be different from each of them but the strongiest and the one above all the gods on earth and in heaven his THE TRUE ALMIGHTY GOD OF ALL CREATION ,ORIGIN OF LIVE IT SELF.AND FATHER OF CHRIST.


    Terricca,

    post: JesuS Christ is a true god by his godly birth being the only begotten son of THE ONLY ALMIGHTY GOD AND TRUE GOD WERE LIVE BEGINS OF .and so father of all.

    The Bible is very silent about what you had declared, that Jesus Christ is true god. That's your own understanding and conclusion.

    For being the so called begotten Son of God, it does not mean that Jesus Christ a true god. He become begotten Son of God, because he is the only human being (man) hath been faultless (sinless), meant he had the same quality of God, holy.

    The holy one of God.(Ref: Mark 1:24, Luke 1:35 NKJV)

    Jesus has been created by God through holy means, through the power of the Holy Spirit not through the normal processing of the husband and wife or else Jesus could not be made an extra-ordinary-man. Through the human flesh by a virgin woman, Mary. (Ref: Matthew 1:18-20 NKJV)

    If you are belong to the chosen people of God, a part of the insider and not to be deemed outsider, you must not recognize any true God, except the Father. (Ref: Mark 4:11 TEV / 1 Cor. 8:7 NKJV)

    You must be check it out if you are belong to the chosen people of God, and not belong to the outsiders.

    God bless you.

    #313684
    carmel
    Participant

    [quote=Ed J,Sep. 21 2012,17:54][/quote]

    Quote
    His achieved God through His  Son

    I would like you to explain what you mean by this part, OK?

    Edj,

    Read Hebrews,and REFLECT

    And again, when he bringeth in the first begotten into the world, he saith: And let all the angels of God adore him.

    ADORE WHO ??? THE FATHER OT THE SON , OR BOTH

    7 And to the angels indeed he saith: He that maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.

    8 But to the Son: Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of justice is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

    HAVE YOU ANY DOUBT WHO'S GOD'S THRONE IS???

    9 Thou hast loved justice, and hated iniquity: therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

    NOW WHO ,AND WHAT KIND OF  GOD IS THAT HAS BEEN ANOINTED BY GOD??

    10 And: Thou in the beginning, O Lord, didst found the earth: and the works of thy hands are the heavens.

    WHO FOUND THE EARTH,AND THE WORK OF HIS HANDS ARE THE HEAVENS???

    11 They shall perish, but thou shalt continue: and they shall all grow old as a garment.

    12 And as a vesture shalt thou change them, and they shall be changed: but thou art the selfsame, and thy years shall not fail.

    WHO CHANGES ALL HIS CREATURES LIKE VESTURES, AND HOW HE CHANGES THEM???

    AND IN THE SAME TIME HE REMAIN THE SELFSAME GOD???

    Now my last question is :

    WHAT IS THE ACHIEVEMENT WHICH GOD THE FATHER WITH THE POWER OF THE HOLY SPIRIT,ACQUIRED THROUGH HIS SON ,AND NEVER HAD BEFORE IN ORDER TO MAKE BOTH HIMSELF AND HIS SON THE ONLY TRUE GOD ???

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles

    #313685
    carmel
    Participant

    [quote=Ed J,Sep. 21 2012,08:07][/quote]

    Quote
    Jesus Christ is God's son (not God himself) – he said so himself.  (See John 9:35-37)
     

    Edj,

    The word SON OF GOD  IS THE APPROPRIATE TITLE FOR THE ONLY GOD IN FLESH SINCE HE WAS BORN THROUGH GOD THE FATHER,

    THE FATHER WAS ONLY A SPIRIT GOD!

    John 9:38………. And falling down, he adored him.

    THAT PARTICULAR PERSON WHO WAS HEALED KNEW THAT HE COULD ONLY ADORE GOD, SO JESUS IS GOD.

    JESUS NEVER REFUSED ADORATION!!

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles

    #313689
    carmel
    Participant

    Quote
    If you don't mind and with all respect either, can you re-post all your questions, so that I could answer it one by one.

    Limjunus,

    Read again my last post, there are at least seven questions!!

    peace and love in Jesus

    Charles

    #313690
    Ed J
    Participant

    Quote (carmel @ Sep. 22 2012,05:13)
    Edj,

    8 But to the Son: Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of justice is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

    HAVE YOU ANY DOUBT WHO'S GOD'S THRONE IS???

    Peace and love in Jesus
    Charles


    Hi Charles,'

    None whatsoever Charles – God's Throne is God's.
    And unto Charles, I say: Thy throne, O God, is for ever
    and ever – a scepter of justice is the scepter of thy kingdom.

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

    #313693
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (limjunus @ Sep. 20 2012,22:07)
    You have two option: Yes or No. meaning, accept it or rejected it.


    And Jesus said ALL authority was given him. That means God has no more authority at all, because it ALL was given to Jesus.

    These were the very words of your Lord Jesus Christ, limjunis. Will you accept them, or reject them?

    See? It's not always as cut and dry as you want it to be, is it? Sometimes there's a gray area in between the black and white. And sometimes, the truth of the matter lies within that gray area.

    Paul said, “as indeed there are many gods, in heaven and on earth”. Will you accept those words, or reject them? (Notice, Paul didn't say “so-called gods”, or “false gods”.)

    limjunis, let me ask you a simple question:

    Do you believe that Jesus is ever called “god” in the scriptures? YES or NO?

    #313695
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (limjunus @ Sep. 20 2012,22:30)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 21 2012,03:54)

    Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 19 2012,22:17)
    Also, the earlier manuscript says “only begotten God.” The Peshitta has 'only begotten God' also.


    From NETNotes:

    The textual problem μονογενὴς θεός (monogenh” qeo”, “the only God”) versus ὁ μονογενὴς υἱός (Jo monogenh” Juio”, “the only son”) is a notoriously difficult one. Only one letter would have differentiated the readings in the mss, since both words would have been contracted as nomina sacra: thus qMs or uMs. Externally, there are several variants, but they can be grouped essentially by whether they read θεός or υἱός. The majority of mss, especially the later ones (A C3 Θ Ψ Ë1,13 Ï lat), read ὁ μονογενὴς υἱός. Ì75 א1 33 pc have ὁ μονογενὴς θεός, while the anarthrous μονογενὴς θεός is found in Ì66 א* B C* L pc. The articular θεός is almost certainly a scribal emendation to the anarthrous θεός, for θεός without the article is a much harder reading. The external evidence thus strongly supports μονογενὴς θεός. Internally, although υἱός fits the immediate context more readily, θεός is much more difficult. As well, θεός also explains the origin of the other reading (υἱός), because it is difficult to see why a scribe who found υἱός in the text he was copying would alter it to θεός. Scribes would naturally change the wording to υἱός however, since μονογενὴς υἱός is a uniquely Johannine christological title (cf. John 3:16, 18; 1 John 4:9). But θεός as the older and more difficult reading is preferred.

    It seems there is valid information to support either “god” or “son” in 1:18.  I don't know the truth of the matter, but agree with the NETNotes scholars that the OLDER reading is generally preferred.

    Kathi also pointed out that the earliest church fathers understood “only begotten god” in this verse.  While I don't agree with their conclusion that God is three persons in one being, it seems obvious that they had to come up with “begotten god” from somewhere.  That tells me that the mss in their day had “only begotten god” in 1:18 – for it is the only verse in the Bible from which they could have gained such an understanding, IMO.


    Mike,

    can you give your commentaries about the real meaning of the sentence “begotten God” and the “begotten Son'?

    Is there a clear contradiction with the two phrases?


    Not at all, since Jesus fits both words.  He IS the only begotten son, and he IS the only begotten god.

    Either translation fits him nicely.

    limjunis, we cannot make ourselves like the Trinitarians.  We cannot allow ourselves to be blinded with pride, and look away from any information we don't WANT to see.

    The green words above tell the story of what we humans currently know about John 1:18.  You can either consider that information with an OPEN MIND (as one who is searching ONLY for truth – even if that truth goes against what he used to think), or you can refuse to consider it at all because it casts shadows on what you're already comfortable believing.

    This last choice is the one MOST people ALWAYS make on this site.  They already have their understanding, and don't care what scriptures prove them wrong, because they're already comfortable with that understanding, and refuse to consider anything else.

    But the scriptural fact of the matter is that Jesus IS called “god”, in about 6 or 7 different scriptures.  The word was used in Biblical times to refer to MANY different beings who were mighty, and who were to be revered.  Now I've come to expect people like Ed and jammin just staying with their own beliefs, whether or not you show them scriptures to refute that belief.  I guess I expected better from you.   :(

    limjunis, how can Jehovah be “the God OF gods” if there exist no other gods for Him to be the God OF?   Please give a DIRECT answer to this question.

    #313700
    Ed J
    Participant

    Hi Mike,

    Thank you for giving us the latitude to make up our own minds as to what Scripture actually teaches;
    But please do continue to give us your views – Hopefully on a plethora of OTHER studies as well.
    Then we may all begin to see the bigger picture of truth emerge with greater clarity to all.

    Your brother
    in Christ, Jesus.
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    holycitybiblecode.org

    #313705
    Frank4YAHWEH
    Participant

    Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 20 2012,15:17)

    Quote (limjunus @ Sep. 19 2012,02:32)

    Quote (jammin @ Sep. 19 2012,16:30)

    Quote (limjunus @ Sep. 19 2012,15:40)

    Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 19 2012,02:10)
    limjunus,
    Jesus IS the true only begotten God.


    Lightenup,

    The rightful way to express is, Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God and “not begotten God”.

    :D


    the bible said he is the begotten son of God and we accept that.
    but the bible also says he is the begotten God.

    you are saying NOT THE WHOLE TRUTH boy LOL

    you are really a photocopy of your father satan LOL

    make your own bible. LOL
    make a bible that all verses support your false doctrine LOL


    Jammin,

    NASB and NKJV is in contrast. It is not my fault, blame the Bible Scholars who have made them.

    Now, again you are accusing me many times. Be careful with your mouth, it could be boomerang to you.

    Which is the right transaltion, the NASB or the NKJV? and why?

    I am choosing the NKJV, because the one and only true God, could and would not be a begotten Son, never.  He has a begotten Son and that was Jesus Christ.

    If I am following your arguments, that Jesus Christ is the begotten God, who is his begotten Son? another Jesus Christ?!!! HO HO HO

    :D


    Hi limjunus,
    I know it is frustrating when one translation has one word and another has a completely different word. Many of the translations have monogenes theos (God) instead of monogenes huios (Son).

    The early church fathers mention the begotten God (the Son)and the unbegotten God (the Father) several times. Also, the earlier manuscript says “only begotten God.” The Peshitta has 'only begotten God' also. The Peshitta is claimed to be the original NT and it was written in Aramaic.

    Besides that, the literal Son of God, begotten before the ages would most assuredly be not only the only begotten Son but because He is the only begotten Son before the ages, He would be the only begotten God as well. Like begets like.

    I hope that helps :)


    Lightenup,

    No, what you have presented certainly does not lend any “help” in this matter!

    Please consider the following study link which follows the author's quote where the author concludes “The evidence at hand is inconclusive at best. …” concerning Yahchanan [John] 1:18:

    “The evidence at hand is inconclusive at best. It would be quite easy to make a choice based on a theological bias. However, this would not be honorable to truth and it would be quite mad to rest our faith upon a highly doubtful text. Both readings are strongly attested in the early church. The weight of the evidence, indicates the passage should say “only begotten Son.” It is consistent with John's terminology in all his writings. [u]And it seems highly likely the passage is a Gnostic corruption designed to offset the force of John 1:14.” (Underlining as emphasis mine.)

    The Trinity Delusion: John 1:18

    My stance would be IF “the only begotten God” were a more accurate translation than “the only begotten Son“, then the word “God” or “god” would simply be in reference to “power (authority), strength, or might” and we know from what Yahshua (the SON) is recorded as saying in the so-called “New Testament” that he received (or it was GIVEN to him), his power (authority), strength, or might from on high from the ONE and ONLY SOURCE of power (authority), strength or might Who is the FATHER Yahweh.

    Then Yahshua came to them and said, “All authority [power, might] in heaven and on earth has been GIVEN to me (Mattithyah 28:18).

    WHO IS THE WORD?
    John Chapter One

    ELOHIM: ONE, OR MORE THAN ONE?
    Exodus 32
    By Voy Wilks
    3/9/98

    The Pre-existence
    Philippians 2:5-11
    By Voy Wilks
    1/29/92

    Did Yahshua Create Or Pre-exist His Birth?

    “Jesus IS God!”?

    #313708
    terraricca
    Participant

    Limjunus,

    Quote
    Terricca,

    post: JesuS Christ is a true god by his godly birth being the only begotten son of THE ONLY ALMIGHTY GOD AND TRUE GOD WERE LIVE BEGINS OF .and so father of all.

    The Bible is very silent about what you had declared, that Jesus Christ is true god. That's your own understanding and conclusion.

    For being the so called begotten Son of God, it does not mean that Jesus Christ a true god. He become begotten Son of God, because he is the only human being (man) hath been faultless (sinless), meant he had the same quality of God, holy.

    The holy one of God.(Ref: Mark 1:24, Luke 1:35 NKJV)

    Jesus has been created by God through holy means, through the power of the Holy Spirit not through the normal processing of the husband and wife or else Jesus could not be made an extra-ordinary-man. Through the human flesh by a virgin woman, Mary. (Ref: Matthew 1:18-20 NKJV)

    If you are belong to the chosen people of God, a part of the insider and not to be deemed outsider, you must not recognize any true God, except the Father. (Ref: Mark 4:11 TEV / 1 Cor. 8:7 NKJV)

    You must be check it out if you are belong to the chosen people of God, and not belong to the outsiders.

    God bless you.

    Quote
    Jesus has been created by God through holy means,

    so according to you Christ his a new creation ???

    Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
    Col 1:16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.
    Col 1:17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

    could you explain why Paul says that ALL THINGS WERE CREATED THROUGH CHRIST VISIBLE AND INVISIBLE and that CHRIST WAS BEFORE ALL THINGS???

    #313716
    Lightenup
    Participant

    limjunus,

    I do believe that I as well as jammin believe in the Nicene Creed as stated here:


    I believe in one God,
    the Father Almighty,
    maker of heaven and earth,
    and of all things visible and invisible;

    And in one Lord Jesus Christ,
    the only begotten Son of God,
    begotten of his Father before all worlds,
    God of God, Light of Light,
    very God of very God,
    begotten, not made,
    being of one substance with the Father;
    by whom all things were made;
    who for us men and for our salvation
    came down from heaven,
    and was incarnate by the Holy Ghost
    of the Virgin Mary,
    and was made man;
    and was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate;
    he suffered and was buried;
    and the third day he rose again
    according to the Scriptures,
    and ascended into heaven,
    and sitteth on the right hand of the Father;
    and he shall come again, with glory,
    to judge both the quick and the dead;
    whose kingdom shall have no end.

    And I believe in the Holy Ghost the Lord, and Giver of Live,
    who proceedeth from the Father [and the Son];
    who with the Father and the Son together
    is worshiped and glorified;
    who spake by the Prophets.
    And I believe one holy Catholic and Apostolic Church;
    I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins;
    and I look for the resurrection of the dead,
    and the life of the world to come. AMEN.

    Do you disagree with any part/parts of this?

    #313717
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Frank,
    you said:

    Quote
    No, what you have presented certainly does not lend any “help” in this matter!

    Sorry you think so. Nevertheless, I have found a great deal of support from the early church on John 1:18 saying 'the only begotten God.'

    I don't want to argue this with you.

Viewing 20 posts - 10,441 through 10,460 (of 26,009 total)
  • You must be logged in to reply to this topic.

© 1999 - 2026 Heaven Net

Log in with your credentials

or    

Forgot your details?

Create Account