John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 10,201 through 10,220 (of 26,009 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #312859
    carmel
    Participant

    [quote=Ed J,Sep. 09 2012,17:31][/quote]

    Quote
    the glory as of the only begotten of the Father (John 1:14)
    com-
    pared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. (Romans 8:18)

    Edj,

    It seems that you are under the impression that the GLORY mentioned in John 1: 14, is the same GLORY which is mentioned in Romans 8:18!!

    Am I right???

    Now If so,

    How?? Considering the fact that John 1:14 is a reference to the word became flesh, and died on the cross,

    and the glory which would be revealed in us is still to come on the last day, and it is the glory which was achieved through the death on the cross by Jesus Christ??

    They cannot be the same glory, since:

    ONE WAS ACHIEVED THROUGH JESUS' BIRTH,

    THEREFORE LOWERED GOD'S STATE INTO ORDINARY HUMAN STATE

    AND THE OTHER WAS ACHIEVED THROUGH JESUS' DEATH

    THEREFORE GLORYFIED GOD'S STATE THROUGH THE UNIFICATION OF THE FATHER AND THE SON, SPIRIT AND FLESH, IN ONE MYSTICAL BODY.

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles

    #312864
    Frank4YAHWEH
    Participant

    Quote (carmel @ Sep. 15 2012,07:37)

    Quote (limjunus @ Sep. 14 2012,21:09)


    Quote
    Therefore, God could and would be equaled by Jesus Christ in the essence of God's attributes.

    Limjunus,

    Now, tell me in what GOD THE FATHER IS EAQUAL WITH THE SON'S ATTRIBUTES???

    WHICH HE(THE FATHER) NEVER WAS,AND HAD  BEFORE!!

    IN ORDER TO TOLERATE SINS,

    SOMETHING WHICH HE NEVER DID IN THE OT.

    IN FACT HE KILLED PEOPLE INSTANTLY,EVEN WITHOUT AN EVIL INTENTION!!

    Read hereunder!

    1 Chronicles 13:9And when they came unto the threshingfloor of Chidon, Uzza put forth his hand to hold the ark; for the oxen stumbled. 10And the anger of the LORD was kindled against Uzza, and he smote him, because he put his hand to the ark: and there he died before God.

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles


    Charles,

    Father Yahweh never “KILLED PEOPLE INSTANTLY,EVEN WITHOUT AN EVIL INTENTION!!” This is not “IN FACT”, but is IN FACT ERROR in opposition to Father Yahweh's righteous and loving way!

    The FACT is, the wages of disobedience to Father Yahweh (“sin”) is death!

    For the wages of *sin is death, but the gift of Yahweh is eternal life in the Messiah Yahshua our Master (Romans 6:23).

    *NOTE sin: What is the Scriptural definition of “sin”?

    Whosoever commits sin transgresses also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law (1 Yahchanan [John] 3:4).

    Disobedience to Father Yahweh's righteous instruction (torah, law, commandment, statute, charge) is most certainly “EVIL”.

    In Numbers 4:15 Father Yahweh warned the Lewites that they were not to touch any of the set apart [“holy”] things they were to carry lest they die. This was in direct disobedience to Father Yahweh's clear instruction.

    Please see:

    Father Yahweh Instruction (Torah, Law, Commandment,  Statute, Charge, Teaching)

    WHO IS THE WORD?
    John Chapter One

    ELOHIM: ONE, OR MORE THAN ONE?
    Exodus 32
    By Voy Wilks
    3/9/98

    The Pre-existence
    Philippians 2:5-11
    By Voy Wilks
    1/29/92

    Did Yahshua Create Or Pre-exist His Birth?

    “Jesus IS God!”?

    #312866
    Ed J
    Participant

    Quote (carmel @ Sep. 15 2012,08:05)

    Quote (Ed J @ Sep. 09 2012,17:31)


    Quote
    the glory as of the only begotten of the Father (John 1:14)
    com-
    pared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. (Romans 8:18)

    Edj,

    It seems that you are under the impression that the GLORY mentioned in John 1: 14, is the same GLORY which is mentioned in Romans 8:18!!

    Am I right???

    Peace and love in Jesus
    Charles


    Hi Charles: the same glory.

                    God's HolySpirit is “The Word“.  (Link)

    “(The) Ho Logos which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's” (John 14:24)

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

    #312867
    Frank4YAHWEH
    Participant

    Quote (carmel @ Sep. 15 2012,08:05)

    Quote (Ed J @ Sep. 09 2012,17:31)


    Quote
    the glory as of the only begotten of the Father (John 1:14)
    com-
    pared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. (Romans 8:18)

    Edj,

    It seems that you are under the impression that the GLORY mentioned in John 1: 14, is the same GLORY which is mentioned in Romans 8:18!!

    Am I right???

    Now If so,

    How?? Considering the fact that John 1:14 is a reference to the word became flesh, and died on the cross,

    and the glory which would be revealed in us is still to come on the last day, and it is the glory which was achieved through the death on the cross by Jesus Christ??

    They cannot be the same glory, since:

    ONE WAS ACHIEVED THROUGH JESUS' BIRTH,

    THEREFORE LOWERED GOD'S STATE INTO ORDINARY HUMAN STATE

    AND THE OTHER WAS ACHIEVED THROUGH JESUS' DEATH

    THEREFORE GLORYFIED GOD'S STATE THROUGH THE UNIFICATION OF THE FATHER AND THE SON, SPIRIT AND FLESH, IN ONE MYSTICAL BODY.

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles


    Charles,

    Father Yahweh's inspired prophetic word did not “[die] on the cross”!   :laugh:

    WHO IS THE WORD?
    John Chapter One

    ELOHIM: ONE, OR MORE THAN ONE?
    Exodus 32
    By Voy Wilks
    3/9/98

    The Pre-existence
    Philippians 2:5-11
    By Voy Wilks
    1/29/92

    Did Yahshua Create Or Pre-exist His Birth?

    “Jesus IS God!”?

    #312870
    Frank4YAHWEH
    Participant

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Sep. 15 2012,08:41)

    Quote (carmel @ Sep. 15 2012,08:05)

    Quote (Ed J @ Sep. 09 2012,17:31)


    Quote
    the glory as of the only begotten of the Father (John 1:14)
    com-
    pared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. (Romans 8:18)

    Edj,

    It seems that you are under the impression that the GLORY mentioned in John 1: 14, is the same GLORY which is mentioned in Romans 8:18!!

    Am I right???

    Now If so,

    How?? Considering the fact that John 1:14 is a reference to the word became flesh, and died on the cross,

    and the glory which would be revealed in us is still to come on the last day, and it is the glory which was achieved through the death on the cross by Jesus Christ??

    They cannot be the same glory, since:

    ONE WAS ACHIEVED THROUGH JESUS' BIRTH,

    THEREFORE LOWERED GOD'S STATE INTO ORDINARY HUMAN STATE

    AND THE OTHER WAS ACHIEVED THROUGH JESUS' DEATH

    THEREFORE GLORYFIED GOD'S STATE THROUGH THE UNIFICATION OF THE FATHER AND THE SON, SPIRIT AND FLESH, IN ONE MYSTICAL BODY.

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles


    Charles,

    Father Yahweh's inspired prophetic word did not “[die] on the cross”!   :laugh:

    WHO IS THE WORD?
    John Chapter One

    ELOHIM: ONE, OR MORE THAN ONE?
    Exodus 32
    By Voy Wilks
    3/9/98

    The Pre-existence
    Philippians 2:5-11
    By Voy Wilks
    1/29/92

    Did Yahshua Create Or Pre-exist His Birth?

    “Jesus IS God!”?


    NOTE:

    This is another clear reason why Yahshua was not LITERALLY Father Yahweh's word as a being that pre-existed with Him in the beginning as t8, Mike, and Pierre erroneously teach!

    Father Yahweh's inspired prophetic word never ceases to exist!

    #312896
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (jammin @ Sep. 13 2012,18:53)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 13 2012,11:56)

    Where in scripture can I read that our one God consists of two or more persons, jammin?

    Please list the scripture(s).


    is the father not a person??

    is Christ not a person???


    Yes to both, jammin. Now will you show me the scripture(s) that say these two persons are both the Most High God?

    #312897
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (limjunus @ Sep. 14 2012,04:09)
    In what essence Jesus Christ is equal with God, as we have aware, it could not be as another true God, because for being the Supreme Being He is alone and could not be duplicated


    limjunis,

    Who is “the only true Lord”?

    And who is “the only true mighty one”?

    #312899
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (carmel @ Sep. 14 2012,14:42)
    Mike,

    Perfect!!

    Now tell me!!

    Who would judge the DEMONS, for the eternal punishment, THE FATHER, OR THE SON???

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles


    Hi Charles,

    I agree with Frank on this one – that the demons have already been judged.  (That's why they already know their punishment is coming, and asked Jesus if he was there to punish them before the appointed time.)

    But I think I get the gist of what you're asking, and my answer is that Jesus' Father, Master, and God has GRANTED him authority to judge.  (In fact, Jesus in turn granted some of that authority to his Apostles, saying, if you forgive them on earth, they will be forgiven in heaven………….)

    Anyway, the Father is the ultimate Judge of all, and as such, He has granted the authority to judge mankind to His Son Jesus.

    #312900
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Sep. 14 2012,15:41)
    Charles,

    Father Yahweh's inspired prophetic word did not “[die] on the cross”!


    Frank,

    Did the Word of God from Rev 19:13 die on the cross?

    #312903
    jammin
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 15 2012,10:54)

    Quote (jammin @ Sep. 13 2012,18:53)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 13 2012,11:56)

    Where in scripture can I read that our one God consists of two or more persons, jammin?

    Please list the scripture(s).


    is the father not a person??

    is Christ not a person???


    Yes to both, jammin.  Now will you show me the scripture(s) that say these two persons are both the Most High God?


    therefore you believe that there are 2 persons

    here is the verse
    Philippians 2:6

    GOD’S WORD Translation (GW)

    6 Although he was in the form of God and equal with God,
    he did not take advantage of this equality.

    the SON is equal with his father BUT HE DID NOT TAKE ADVANTAGE OF THIS EQUALITY

    take note mike
    he did not take advantage of this equality.

    believe it or not, the son is equal with his father

    #312907
    jammin
    Participant

    Quote (Ed J @ Sep. 15 2012,03:23)

    Quote (jammin @ Sep. 15 2012,02:58)

    Quote (limjunus @ Sep. 14 2012,21:09)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 14 2012,04:38)

    Quote (limjunus @ Sep. 12 2012,22:58)
    …the essence of the word equal is two and could not be completed without the other one to be equaled.


    Exactly.  One cannot be “equal to” himself.  In order for one to be “equal to” another, there has to be that OTHER for him to be “equal to”.  “Equal to” definitely implies TWO – one of whom is “equal to” the OTHER.

    So even with jammin's doctored translations that say Jesus is “equal to God”, it still backfires on him.

    (FYI, there is no actual scripture that says Jesus is “equal to God” anyway.  There are, however, many scriptures that say he is the “servant of”, and “lessor to” his God and Creator.)


    In what essence Jesus Christ is equal with God, as we have aware, it could not be as another true God, because for being the Supreme Being He is alone and could not be duplicated

    Therefore, God could and would be equaled by Jesus Christ in the essence of God's attributes.

    The true God in the essence of qualities, is holy,… Jesus Christ is also holy (sinless). (God and Jesus Christ is equal in holiness)

    A sinless or a holy man could not be condemned to death.  The rules of the law is, “For the wages of sin is death….” ref. Romans 6:23 NKJV.

    Therefore, Jesus Christ even though he is a human is immortal (in the form/ nature/ attribute of God) for being holy/sinless and the power of death has nothing to do with him. But he did not consider it robbery to be equal with God,…” (Jesus Christ's nature/attributes is holy and immortal. Entitling him as equaled with God, and it is not robbery or to be hold) Ref: Philippians 2:6

    Here is the mystery of the kingdom of God…. for the salvation of all mankind.

    All mankind have sinned, except Jesus Christ. The nature/attributes of man is weak, violators or sinners, under the power of death and already condemned for the eternal punishment by God.

    The salvation has been made through Jesus Christ. God made him a redeemer and Lord to those people who will beleive with his good news (Christ's gospel).

    The good news is; Jesus Christ, have agreed with the will of God, that he must set aside his immortality and holiness by acting as a servant, acting has no reputation and willing to experiences a life of human full of sins, accepting the wages of death for the sinners; he must die for the sake of his believers/ followers even in the death of the cross.  ref: Philippians 2:7-8

    In the first place, Jesus Christ could enjoy the benefits for being holy/sinless. He can live forever and ever and no need for him to suffer as a sinner and no need for to experience the hardship in this world. But, instead he remove all of his attributes (immortality and holiness) with God, he took the normal form (sinners and mortal nature) of a human being, live among men, experiences the hardship in this world and died for us. The reward of his noble task and sacrifices,… God, exalted him, given him a name above every name and made him Lord and Savior for the Glory of his God and Father. ref: Philippians 29-11.

    That's it…the mystery of the kingdom of God, for the salvation of the followers of Christ Jesus.

    :D


    read in phil 2.6 that it refers only to holiness.

    ill wait.
    give me a single translation limjunus.

    i do not need opinion. i want you to read  your illusion in phil 2.6

    that is not the right meaning of the verse.
    you are not saying the whole truth. you are like your father satan


    Hi limjunus,

    “Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you,
      and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.
      Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven:
      for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.” (Matt 5:11-12)

    “Hear, and understand: Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man;
      but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man.” (Matt 15:10-11)

    Your brother
    in Christ, Jesus.
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    holycitybiblecode.org


    that verse is not referring to the both of you.
    it refers to the TRUE believers.

    you and limjunus are false prophets

    until now you cant read your imagination that the WORD in john 1.1 is the HS

    why dont you make your own bible to support your imagination in john 1.1 LOL

    #312909
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (jammin @ Sep. 14 2012,18:29)
    therefore you believe that there are 2 persons


    I believe there are MANY persons, jammin.  The Father God and His Son are but two of them.  But which one of those two is called “the Most High God”? Also, I'm still waiting for the scripture(s) that teach us about God being two or more persons in one being.

    Also, Phil 2 doesn't say “equal with God” in the Greek text.  These words are a travesty to holy scripture, as they were added in by mere men trying to make support for a flawed man-made doctrine where no support truly exists.

    And, even if the scriptures did say Jesus is equal to God Most High, the words “equal to” would prohibit Jesus from being God Most High.  A being cannot be “equal to” itself.

    jammin, who is the “Most High God” – according to scripture?  And who is His Son?

    #312910
    Frank4YAHWEH
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 15 2012,11:12)

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Sep. 14 2012,15:41)
    Charles,

    Father Yahweh's inspired prophetic word did not “[die] on the cross”!


    Frank,

    Did the Word of God from Rev 19:13 die on the cross?


    Mike,

    No, Revelation 19:13 makes no mention of Father Yahweh's inspired prophetic word [“dieing] on a cross”! :laugh:

    Again, Yahshua was not LITERALLY Father Yahweh's inspired prophetic word that pre-existed with Him in the beginning as an actual being. And as I have told you a number of times previously, Yahshua's title is called “The Word of Yahweh” in Revelation 19:13 simply because he is the spokesman of his and our Father Yahweh's word in this last time period as Hebrews 1:1-2 makes perfectly clear.

    Keep those foolish questions coming, because I will surely do my best to answer any such foolish questions! Mike,

    No, Revelation 19:13 makes no mention of Father Yahweh's inspired prophetic word [“dieing] on a cross”! :laugh:

    Again, Yahshua is not LITERALLY Father Yahweh's inspired prophetic word that pre-existed with Him in the beginning as an actual being. And as I have told you a number of times previously, Yahshua's title is called “The Word of Yahweh” in Revelation 19:13 simply because he is the spokesman of his and our Father Yahweh's word in this last time period as Hebrews 1:1-2 makes perfectly clear.

    WHO IS THE WORD?
    John Chapter One

    ELOHIM: ONE, OR MORE THAN ONE?
    Exodus 32
    By Voy Wilks
    3/9/98

    The Pre-existence
    Philippians 2:5-11
    By Voy Wilks
    1/29/92

    Did Yahshua Create Or Pre-exist His Birth?

    “Jesus IS God!”?

    #312912
    Frank4YAHWEH
    Participant

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Sep. 15 2012,12:11)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 15 2012,11:12)

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Sep. 14 2012,15:41)
    Charles,

    Father Yahweh's inspired prophetic word did not “[die] on the cross”!


    Frank,

    Did the Word of God from Rev 19:13 die on the cross?


    Mike,

    No, Revelation 19:13 makes no mention of Father Yahweh's inspired prophetic word [“dieing] on a cross”! :laugh:

    Again, Yahshua was not LITERALLY Father Yahweh's inspired prophetic word that pre-existed with Him in the beginning as an actual being. And as I have told you a number of times previously, Yahshua's title is called “The Word of Yahweh” in Revelation 19:13 simply because he is the spokesman of his and our Father Yahweh's word in this last time period as Hebrews 1:1-2 makes perfectly clear.

    Keep those foolish questions coming, because I will surely do my best to answer any such foolish questions! Mike,

    No, Revelation 19:13 makes no mention of Father Yahweh's inspired prophetic word [“dieing] on a cross”! :laugh:

    Again, Yahshua is not LITERALLY Father Yahweh's inspired prophetic word that pre-existed with Him in the beginning as an actual being. And as I have told you a number of times previously, Yahshua's title is called “The Word of Yahweh” in Revelation 19:13 simply because he is the spokesman of his and our Father Yahweh's word in this last time period as Hebrews 1:1-2 makes perfectly clear.

    WHO IS THE WORD?
    John Chapter One

    ELOHIM: ONE, OR MORE THAN ONE?
    Exodus 32
    By Voy Wilks
    3/9/98

    The Pre-existence
    Philippians 2:5-11
    By Voy Wilks
    1/29/92

    Did Yahshua Create Or Pre-exist His Birth?

    “Jesus IS God!”?


    I guess I thought it necessary to tell you twice, in hopes that I might get this simple truth through that thick head of yours! :laugh:

    #312917
    Frank4YAHWEH
    Participant

    Yahshua is the spokesman of his and our Father Yahweh's inspired prophetic word in this last time period:

    In the past Yahweh spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, but in this last time period He has spoken to us by His son, whom He appointed heir of all things, and because of whom He made the universe (Hebrews 1:1-2).

    Out of his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. “He will rule them with an iron scepter.” He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of Yahweh Almighty (Revelation 19:15).

    In his right hand he held seven stars, and out of his mouth came a sharp double-edged sword. His face was like the sun shining in all its brilliance (Revelation 1:16).

    May the praise of Yahweh be in their mouths and a double-edged sword in their hands, to inflict vengeance on the nations and punishment on the peoples, to bind their kings with fetters, their nobles with shackles of iron, to carry out the sentence written against them. This is the esteem of all His saints. Praise Yahweh! (Psalms 149:6-9).

    He made my mouth like a sharpened sword, in the shadow of his hand he hid me; he made me into a polished arrow and concealed me in his quiver (Isayah 49:2).

    The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and they are life (Yahchanan [John] 6:63).

    For I did not speak of my own accord, but the Father who sent me commanded me what to say and how to say it (Yahchanan 12:49).

    Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work (Yahchanan 14:10).

    For the word of Yahweh is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart (Hebrews 4:12).

    Take the helmet of redemption and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of Yahweh (Ephesians 6:17).

    WHO IS THE WORD?
    John Chapter One

    ELOHIM: ONE, OR MORE THAN ONE?
    Exodus 32
    By Voy Wilks
    3/9/98

    The Pre-existence
    Philippians 2:5-11
    By Voy Wilks
    1/29/92

    Did Yahshua Create Or Pre-exist His Birth?

    “Jesus IS God!”?

    #312921
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Sep. 15 2012,13:42)

    Quote (limjunus @ Sep. 13 2012,16:23)

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Sep. 13 2012,13:03)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 13 2012,11:54)

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Sep. 12 2012,17:26)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 13 2012,10:11)

    In Isaiah 44:8, Jehovah asks, “Is there an el besides me?”

    Well Frank?  Is there any other being who is ever called “el” or “elohim” in scripture?  YES or NO?


    Mike,

    Listen to Father Yahweh when he says:


    Exodus 12:12
    ………and I will bring judgment on all the gods of Egypt. I am the LORD.

    Frank, listen to what Father Yahweh says.

    The answer to the question is:  YES!  There are MANY elohim mentioned in the scriptures.

    And since that is the case, we know that Isaiah 44:8 is an EMPHATICAL statement, just like the statement about Payton Manning in my example.

    Mike,

    I do listen to Father Yahweh's inspired prophetic word and study and put it into practice on a daily basis as is instructed.

    Father Yahweh will judge and has already judged all of theses so-called and false “gods” as powerless and as “no gods at all”! They are LITERALLY non-existent as actual beings! :laugh:

    They sacrificed to demons that were no gods, to gods they had never known, to new gods that had come recently, whom your fathers had never dreaded (Deuteronomy 32:17).

    And you see and hear how this fellow Shaul has convinced and led astray large numbers of people here in Ephesus and in practically the whole province of Asia. He says that man-made gods are no gods at all (Acts 19:26).

    You still continue to be owned in the very forum that you co-moderate and continue to be powerless in swaying me to your perverted beliefs just as the very false and so-called “gods” that you recognize as actual beings that exist! :laugh:

    Isayah 9:6:

    Does Isayah 9:6 Proclaim Yahshua To Be Yahweh?
    Does Isaiah 9:6 Claim That “Jesus is God”?

    Yahchanan 1:1:

    WHO IS THE WORD?
    John Chapter One

    Yahchanan 20:28:

    Did Thomas Call Yahshua “God”?

    Hebrews 1:8:

    Did Father Yahweh call His Son “God”?

    ELOHIM: ONE, OR MORE THAN ONE?
    Exodus 32
    By Voy Wilks
    3/9/98

    The Pre-existence
    Philippians 2:5-11
    By Voy Wilks
    1/29/92

    Did Yahshua Create Or Pre-exist His Birth?

    “Jesus IS God!”?


    Quote
    “gods” meaning not true God


    limjunus,

    This is exactly what I have pointed out to Mike on a number of occasions, but he insist that there in no mention in Scripture that these “gods” are “false, so-called gods” or “meaning not true God” as you have put it, but instead insist that the “gods” are in fact actual beings that actually have some kind of power (authority), might and strength. I even pointed out to him the story in Scripture about the competition that was set up by Eliyah between Father Yahweh and Baal and in the end result it was clearly shown that Baal had no power whatsoever and mikebulls'64 still refused to see the truth in this example.


    fRANK

    TRUE GODS THEY ARE ,BUT THEY ARE NOT THE TRUE ALMIGHTY GOD, CAN YOU UNDERSTAND THAT ???

    MANY ARE PRESIDENT BUT ONLY ONE HIS AS POWERFUL AS OBAMA IN THE U.S.A,AND THAT IS OBAMA HIMSELF

    #312926
    kerwin
    Participant

    To all,

    * God is the Elohim.
    * The Messengers are Elohim.
    * This does not mean that the uncreated Jehovah/Yawheh is the same kind as the Messengers, who are created.
    * Jehovah/Yawheh is the first and last of his kind; the A and the Z of it. There is no other.

    #312927
    limjunus
    Participant

    Quote (jammin @ Sep. 15 2012,02:58)

    Quote (limjunus @ Sep. 14 2012,21:09)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 14 2012,04:38)

    Quote (limjunus @ Sep. 12 2012,22:58)
    …the essence of the word equal is two and could not be completed without the other one to be equaled.


    Exactly.  One cannot be “equal to” himself.  In order for one to be “equal to” another, there has to be that OTHER for him to be “equal to”.  “Equal to” definitely implies TWO – one of whom is “equal to” the OTHER.

    So even with jammin's doctored translations that say Jesus is “equal to God”, it still backfires on him.

    (FYI, there is no actual scripture that says Jesus is “equal to God” anyway.  There are, however, many scriptures that say he is the “servant of”, and “lessor to” his God and Creator.)


    In what essence Jesus Christ is equal with God, as we have aware, it could not be as another true God, because for being the Supreme Being He is alone and could not be duplicated

    Therefore, God could and would be equaled by Jesus Christ in the essence of God's attributes.

    The true God in the essence of qualities, is holy,… Jesus Christ is also holy (sinless). (God and Jesus Christ is equal in holiness)

    A sinless or a holy man could not be condemned to death.  The rules of the law is, “For the wages of sin is death….” ref. Romans 6:23 NKJV.

    Therefore, Jesus Christ even though he is a human is immortal (in the form/ nature/ attribute of God) for being holy/sinless and the power of death has nothing to do with him. But he did not consider it robbery to be equal with God,…” (Jesus Christ's nature/attributes is holy and immortal. Entitling him as equaled with God, and it is not robbery or to be hold) Ref: Philippians 2:6

    Here is the mystery of the kingdom of God…. for the salvation of all mankind.

    All mankind have sinned, except Jesus Christ. The nature/attributes of man is weak, violators or sinners, under the power of death and already condemned for the eternal punishment by God.

    The salvation has been made through Jesus Christ. God made him a redeemer and Lord to those people who will beleive with his good news (Christ's gospel).

    The good news is; Jesus Christ, have agreed with the will of God, that he must set aside his immortality and holiness by acting as a servant, acting has no reputation and willing to experiences a life of human full of sins, accepting the wages of death for the sinners; he must die for the sake of his believers/ followers even in the death of the cross.  ref: Philippians 2:7-8

    In the first place, Jesus Christ could enjoy the benefits for being holy/sinless. He can live forever and ever and no need for him to suffer as a sinner and no need for to experience the hardship in this world. But, instead he remove all of his attributes (immortality and holiness) with God, he took the normal form (sinners and mortal nature) of a human being, live among men, experiences the hardship in this world and died for us. The reward of his noble task and sacrifices,… God, exalted him, given him a name above every name and made him Lord and Savior for the Glory of his God and Father. ref: Philippians 29-11.

    That's it…the mystery of the kingdom of God, for the salvation of the followers of Christ Jesus.

    :D


    read in phil 2.6 that it refers only to holiness.

    ill wait.
    give me a single translation limjunus.

    i do not need opinion. i want you to read  your illusion in phil 2.6

    that is not the right meaning of the verse.
    you are not saying the whole truth. you are like your father satan


    [B]Jammin,

    Now, you are requesting for a single translation? You did not see it? There were references every end of the context.

    It is not my opinion, it is the new covenant or gospel of Christ Jesus. That he must set aside his nature/attributes for being a holy man of God. A holy man could not overcome by death or the power of death has nothing to do with a sinless man.

    In other words, the penalty of sin is death and eternal condemnation in the lake of fire (hell). ref: Romans 6:23 / Rev. 20:14 NKJV

    Jammin, answer me honestly. How the holy man or a sinless man could be put into death by God, where is the righteousness that only a guilty man must be punished by death?

    Do not insist your incorrect understanding with the Philippians 2:6 and just throw away the verses 7 to 11.

    Do not contradict the truth of the Bible by twisting it because of your own understanding.

    Think it and learn it rightfully. You must throw away your belief that the true God died for us.

    Here is the truth of the kingdom of God. The one and only true God, is immortal and would never died.

    In fact you are in the stage of a very dangerous illusion.

    Jesus Christ, sacrifices his nature/attributes. For being sinless or a holy man, the power of the death has nothing to do with him (Romans 6:23 and Rev.20:14)

    The status of Jesus Christ was a sinless man entitling him for immortality. The same/equal quality of God, never died.

    But he did not hold into it, instead he set aside it (stripped the equality of God) and agreed to be the appointed redeemer, willing to change his status of being holy man/immortal and took the normal form a human being, acting like sinners, experiencing the pain of being a sinners and ready to die even on the cross.

    Because of completion of the noble and holy task given to him by God, he has been rewarded, exalted, receiving precious name above all name and made him Lord and Savior of the chosen people of God.

    You are in a perfect illusion of Satan, Jammin. Imagining your belief,…The true God rewarding another true God,… true God died on the cross because he is obeying the commandments of his another true God?

    The Holy Scriptures is full of mystery and it is not like an open or ordinary book. You can not get the rightful understanding on it except with the guidance the true preachers of God.

    Peace.

    :D

    #312928
    limjunus
    Participant

    Quote (jammin @ Sep. 15 2012,03:06)
    THE BIBLE said that the word equal means he is GOD

    Philippians 2:6

    Amplified Bible (AMP)

    6 Who, although being essentially one with God and in the form of God [[a]possessing the fullness of the attributes which make God God], did not [b]think this equality with God was a thing to be eagerly grasped [c]or retained,

    Philippians 2:6

    New Living Translation (NLT)

    6 Though he was God,[a]
       he did not think of equality with God
       as something to cling to.

    now give me a single translation boy that it only refers to holiness bec the verse is not ONLY referring as being holy but as being GOD!
    the bible said…
    possessing the fullness of the attributes which make God God

    make your own bible boy LOL


    [B]Jammin,

    Wake up! throw your perfect illusion with satan.

    Jesus Christ is truly God?

    a very strong evidence of a clear contradictions of the same book Philippians 2:7-11

    Here is your beliefs, Jammin.

    The true God, exalted and given another true God a very special name name, and make the another true God, both Lord and Savior?

    The true God died on the cross by obeying the commandments of a true God?

    Oh, come on.

    :ghostface:

    #312930
    limjunus
    Participant

    Quote (Ed J @ Sep. 15 2012,03:23)

    Quote (jammin @ Sep. 15 2012,02:58)

    Quote (limjunus @ Sep. 14 2012,21:09)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 14 2012,04:38)

    Quote (limjunus @ Sep. 12 2012,22:58)
    …the essence of the word equal is two and could not be completed without the other one to be equaled.


    Exactly.  One cannot be “equal to” himself.  In order for one to be “equal to” another, there has to be that OTHER for him to be “equal to”.  “Equal to” definitely implies TWO – one of whom is “equal to” the OTHER.

    So even with jammin's doctored translations that say Jesus is “equal to God”, it still backfires on him.

    (FYI, there is no actual scripture that says Jesus is “equal to God” anyway.  There are, however, many scriptures that say he is the “servant of”, and “lessor to” his God and Creator.)


    In what essence Jesus Christ is equal with God, as we have aware, it could not be as another true God, because for being the Supreme Being He is alone and could not be duplicated

    Therefore, God could and would be equaled by Jesus Christ in the essence of God's attributes.

    The true God in the essence of qualities, is holy,… Jesus Christ is also holy (sinless). (God and Jesus Christ is equal in holiness)

    A sinless or a holy man could not be condemned to death.  The rules of the law is, “For the wages of sin is death….” ref. Romans 6:23 NKJV.

    Therefore, Jesus Christ even though he is a human is immortal (in the form/ nature/ attribute of God) for being holy/sinless and the power of death has nothing to do with him. But he did not consider it robbery to be equal with God,…” (Jesus Christ's nature/attributes is holy and immortal. Entitling him as equaled with God, and it is not robbery or to be hold) Ref: Philippians 2:6

    Here is the mystery of the kingdom of God…. for the salvation of all mankind.

    All mankind have sinned, except Jesus Christ. The nature/attributes of man is weak, violators or sinners, under the power of death and already condemned for the eternal punishment by God.

    The salvation has been made through Jesus Christ. God made him a redeemer and Lord to those people who will beleive with his good news (Christ's gospel).

    The good news is; Jesus Christ, have agreed with the will of God, that he must set aside his immortality and holiness by acting as a servant, acting has no reputation and willing to experiences a life of human full of sins, accepting the wages of death for the sinners; he must die for the sake of his believers/ followers even in the death of the cross.  ref: Philippians 2:7-8

    In the first place, Jesus Christ could enjoy the benefits for being holy/sinless. He can live forever and ever and no need for him to suffer as a sinner and no need for to experience the hardship in this world. But, instead he remove all of his attributes (immortality and holiness) with God, he took the normal form (sinners and mortal nature) of a human being, live among men, experiences the hardship in this world and died for us. The reward of his noble task and sacrifices,… God, exalted him, given him a name above every name and made him Lord and Savior for the Glory of his God and Father. ref: Philippians 29-11.

    That's it…the mystery of the kingdom of God, for the salvation of the followers of Christ Jesus.

    :D


    read in phil 2.6 that it refers only to holiness.

    ill wait.
    give me a single translation limjunus.

    i do not need opinion. i want you to read  your illusion in phil 2.6

    that is not the right meaning of the verse.
    you are not saying the whole truth. you are like your father satan


    Hi limjunus,

    “Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you,
      and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.
      Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven:
      for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.” (Matt 5:11-12)

    “Hear, and understand: Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man;
      but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man.” (Matt 15:10-11)

    Your brother
    in Christ, Jesus.
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    holycitybiblecode.org


    ED j..

    Thanks.

    Jammin is just trying to write down the verses and gave his own unsafe conclusion with matching accusation to the other contributors.

    I have notice that's his style and improper attitudes and need to be corrected. :D

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