John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 61 through 80 (of 25,987 total)
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  • #4827
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi WIT,
    The definition is strange to our ears but it is God's definition of man in Gen 2.7. Soul and spirit of Man, from the same source, is the Breath of God. Is the Breath of God the essence of God?
    No.
    I don't think anyone would teach that natural man contains the essence of God. He contains life sufficient to survive till judgement at least but I would have thought the essence of God was the Spirit of God and that is only received by new men in Jesus. Eternal life never destined for eternal death?

    #4829
    NickHassan
    Participant

    ps
    This false doctrine about flesh and soul and spirit being one also changes the view of nature and abilities of Jesus at and after his death. He cannot  do what is said in scripture about him in Mt 27.50
    “And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice AND YIELDED UP HIS SPIRIT”
    If there is no separation between spirit and body this is impossible.

    The writer quoted by Adam Pastor also equated the scripture where Stephen said ” Lord Jesus receive my spirit ' and the one in Ecclesiastes where it is said man's spirit returns to God at death. These are different as only the spirit of the saved in the NTcan return to be in Jesus surely?

    #4830
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Quote (Ramblinrose @ Dec. 05 2004,05:04)
    John 6:46  Not that any man hath seen the Father save he which is of God , he hath seen the Father.

    GREEK LEXICON
    2316 yeov theos theh’-os

    1) a god or goddess, a general name of deities or divinities
    2) the Godhead, trinity
    2a) God the Father, the first person in the trinity
    2b) Christ, the second person of the trinity
    2c) Holy Spirit, the third person in the trinity
    3) spoken of the only and true God
    3a) refers to the things of God
    3b) his counsels, interests, things due to him
    4) whatever can in any respect be likened unto God, or resemble him in any way
    4a) God’s representative or viceregent
    4a1) of magistrates and judges

    Not that any man hath perceived the Father save he which is God's representative, he hath perceived the Father.


    Hi RR,
    I see you interpret Jn 6.46 as saying Jesus is God's representative who has perceived the Father.

    Is that all you see him as? Has he no mind or heart or personality or will of his own?

    Perceive is a very 'distant' kind of word since Jesus says he and his Father are one.
    ??

    #4831
    WhatIsTrue
    Participant

    Nick,

    OK.  So if I understand you correctly, man is just a body. The soul and spirit of a man together are the breath of God.

    So is it fair to say that we are not really men at all, but are, in actuality, the very breath of God, since at death, we don't really die at all but merely discard the body, and live on as soul and spirit?  (i.e.  Are we the breath of God that comes from God “partaking of the flesh” for a time until we return back to God?)  If so, is God going to pass judgement on His own breath on the judgement day, condemning some of it to eternal destruction and giving the rest of it a divine nature?

    Also, given that you believe the following:

    Quote
    The breath of God does not die.

    Does this mean that all of mankind is already immortal?

    #4832
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Quote (WhatIsTrue @ Dec. 08 2004,22:48)
    Nick,

    OK.  So if I understand you correctly, man is just a body. The soul and spirit of a man together are the breath of God.

    So is it fair to say that we are not really men at all, but are, in actuality, the very breath of God, since at death, we don't really die at all but merely discard the body, and live on as soul and spirit?  (i.e.  Are we the breath of God that comes from God “partaking of the flesh” for a time until we return back to God?)  If so, is God going to pass judgement on His own breath on the judgement day, condemning some of it to eternal destruction and giving the rest of it a divine nature?

    Also, given that you believe the following:

    Quote
    The breath of God does not die.

    Does this mean that all of mankind is already immortal?


    Hi WIT,
    Good questions and I expect them from you.
    OK. How do you interpret this verse in Mt 25.46
    ” These will go off to eternal punishment and the just to eternal life”?
    We know this too from from Revelation 20
    “Then death and the nether world were hurled into the pool of fire, which is the second death. Any one whose name is not written in the book of the living was hurled into the pool of fire” and more detail in Rev 21.8

    Scripture says death is sleep so resurrection involves waking of the soul and spirit taking on the new body over the old for the saved. I do not know about the unsaved and their resurrection body but if punishment is eternal could it be the new body too as the old would scarcely last long in the fires of eternity?

    Yes Paul tells us plainly in 2 Cor 4-5 that we ,at present, inhabit a natural body. Do you agree?

    It is also plain that God is going to pass judgement on all mankind and all are created by Him. The breath of a man is only the waste products of our respiration and we are made in the image of God. We do not retain ownership of our breath once it leaves our mouths do we? Why the drama about God condemning the products of His breath? God gave us that breath, and free will with it, and it is now of us and not still of God. Do you agree?

    #4851
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Quote (WhatIsTrue @ Dec. 09 2004,13:44)
    If Greek thinking was key in discerning the nature and the arrival of the Messiah, why did God withhold such wisdom from His chosen people in their most sacred writings?  Why does the OT issue such strong injunctions against having anything to do with the culture of foreign peoples?  Was God purposely trying to hide the crucial mystery of the Messiah's nature in Greek culture so that the Jews would not to “get it”?

    Moreover, wasn't it Greek thinking that turned the one God of the Hebrews into a god of three?  Wasn't it Greek thinking, in the form of gnosticism, that even Paul and the other apostles had to combat during their ministry, even in the very pages of the NT itself?


    Hi WhatIsTrue,

    To answer this I would first like to say that I do not think this is about Greek versus Hebrew thinking as some here do. Rather I propose that it is Spirit lead thinking as apposed to man-made thinking. So I am neither for nor against either Greek or Hebrew thing. But I am against both if they become the stick that we measure doctrine by.

    Now I know that some translators were influenced by Greek thinking just as some were most likely influenced by Hebrew thinking. I am open to the possibility that I am being influenced in either way by reason of the translators who edited the versions of scripture that I read. But I do look up the meanings of words when I read scripture in order to see what the verse is or could be saying. So I do translate verses for myself.

    But rather than reject all Greek thinking by reason of it's negative influence such as the Trinity doctrine, I do see that scripture itself uses Greek thinking sometimes, so it cannot be all that bad.

    E.g. Acts 17:28-29
    For in him we live and move and have our being.’ As some of your own poets have said, ‘We are his offspring.’”Yes, we are God's children. So we shouldn't think that God is made out of gold or silver or stone. He isn't a statue planned and made by clever people.

    So Paul uses some words that were known by the Greeks by one of their poets and confirms that this particular quote is correct.

    Also the word Logos is a greek word and was used before John used it in his book.

    I have read this quote from a number of places regarding the origin of the word Logos.

    A Greek philosopher named Heraclitus first used the term Logos around 600 B.C. to designate the divine reason or plan which coordinates a changing universe. This word was well suited to John's purpose in John 1.

    So if we are to reject Greek thinking, then we should reject the word Logos too. But I think that anybody can use anything to demonstrate truth if it fits. It is not that anyone one group of people have all the truth and everyone else are completely deprived. Rather I would say that truth comes from God and can be revealed to us in vision or even parable. This crosses all boundaries and culture and can be explained to us in parables and different languages.

    #4852
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 09 2004,14:53)
    Hi WIT,
    The definition is strange to our ears but it is God's definition of man in Gen 2.7. Soul and spirit of Man, from the same source, is the Breath of God. Is the Breath of God the essence of God?
    No.
    I don't think anyone would teach that natural man contains the essence of God. He contains life sufficient to survive till judgement at least but I would have thought the essence of God was the Spirit of God and that is only received by new men in Jesus. Eternal life never destined for eternal death?


    I throw in the following for consideration. It appears that the Spirit of God is what gives us our life, so all perhaps even the animals have this spirit. But perhaps baptism in the Spirit is a continual flow or connection with God's Spirit rather than something that is given once when we are created. This Spirit that is given to us when we are created is taken back and that results in death. But if we have God's Spirit flowing out of our innermost being, then we shall not taste of death for we have the Spirit of Life and God is the God of the living not the dead.

    Ecclesiastes 12:7
    and the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.

    Genesis 6:3
    Then the LORD said, “My Spirit will not contend with [ Or My spirit will not remain in ] man forever, for he is mortal [ Or corrupt ] ; his days will be a hundred and twenty years.”

    Job 32:8
    But it is the spirit [ Or Spirit] in a man, the breath of the Almighty, that gives him understanding.

    Ecclesiastes 3:19
    Man's fate is like that of the animals; the same fate awaits them both: As one dies, so dies the other. All have the same breath [ Or spirit ] ; man has no advantage over the animal. Everything is meaningless.

    Ecclesiastes 8:8
    No man has power over the wind to contain it [ Or over his spirit to retain it ] ; so no one has power over the day of his death. As no one is discharged in time of war, so wickedness will not release those who practice it.

    John 8:52
    At this the Jews exclaimed, Now we know that you are demon-possessed! Abraham died and so did the prophets, yet you say that if anyone keeps your word, he will never taste death.

    #4853
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    To WhatisTrue,

    Quote (WhatIsTrue @ Dec. 09 2004,17:48)
    OK.  So if I understand you correctly, man is just a body. The soul and spirit of a man together are the breath of God.

    So is it fair to say that we are not really men at all, but are, in actuality, the very breath of God, since at death, we don't really die at all but merely discard the body, and live on as soul and spirit?  (i.e.  Are we the breath of God that comes from God “partaking of the flesh” for a time until we return back to God?)  If so, is God going to pass judgement on His own breath on the judgement day, condemning some of it to eternal destruction and giving the rest of it a divine nature?

    Also, given that you believe the following:


    I see it like this:

    We are our soul. That is who we are, our identity.
    What we are is flesh, that is our nature.
    We have awareness because the Spirit of God has given us life.

    So the Spirit is of God is a part of God that God can take back for himself. But the Spirit of God that we recieve when we are sanctified is God's eternal Spirit.
    The soul is who we are. Perhaps the area of our will, character and personality.
    The body is the vessel that contains the soul and lets us interact with the physical realm because the body we have is physical and of this world.

    So the spirit that God gives us in the beginning is his breath which gives us awareness and life. But baptism in God's Spirit makes us one with him so that our spirit the spirit that he gave us will be one in unity with his Spirit and this makes us pure in spirit.

    The spirit is the God conscience part of us.
    The soul is the self aware part of us.
    The body is the world conscious part of us.

    It is our soul (us) and spirit (from God) that God saves and he does this by renewing the spirit inside our soul by joining us with his Spirit. We are eventually given a spirtual body to make us complete.

    Romans 8:16
    The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

    Psalm 35:9
    And my soul shall be joyful in the LORD: it shall rejoice in his salvation.

    Hebrews 4:12
    For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

    This is my take and I open open for correction as I want to learn. But perhaps this post belongs in the 'What is Man' post, so I will also post it there if anyone wants to continue discussing it. If only to make way for further discussion about the logos.

    #4859
    WhatIsTrue
    Participant

    T8,

    Quote
    To answer this I would first like to say that I do not think this is about Greek versus Hebrew thinking as some here do. Rather I propose that it is Spirit lead thinking as apposed to man-made thinking. So I am neither for nor against either Greek or Hebrew thing. But I am against both if they become the stick that we measure doctrine by.

    I would agree that it is not about Hebrew vs. Greek thinking.  To me, it seems that it should be about scriptural vs. unscriptural thinking.  The Bereans in Acts were called noble for searching scripture to see if the doctrines they were being taught were true.  It is important to remember that at the time the only scripture they had was the OT.  So to understand the teachings of the NT, one must first be fluent with the teachings of the OT.  Much of Greek philosophy is foreign to the pages of the OT, and as such, is completely unscriptural.  If we approach the NT with a different foundation then the one that was used by its authors, then we are likely to come to different conclusions then what the authors intended.

    Quote
    Also the word Logos is a greek word and was used before John used it in his book.

    I have read this quote from a number of places regarding the origin of the word Logos.

    A Greek philosopher named Heraclitus first used the term Logos around 600 B.C. to designate the divine reason or plan which coordinates a changing universe. This word was well suited to John's purpose in John 1.

    So should we be reading the works of Heraclitus to understand the nature of the Word, (or the Logos, if you prefer the Greek), or should we be reading the OT to put John's usage of “Logos” in context?

    For the record, what is your definition of “logos”?  The one given in the above quote?  Is it God's thoughts?  Is it a divine being who God begot in His mind?

    Nick,

    You said in the “What is Man” discussion that Romans 8:16 has corrected your thinking in some way.  Are you referring to the definition of man that you have given above, or to something else?

    #4860
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Yes WIT,
    I had thought that the Holy Spirit replaced our natural spirit in the death of baptism but Romans 8.16 makes it plain that they coexist within us. Do you agree?

    #4865
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    I sometimes think that our spirit is like a drop of water and God who is Spirit is like an ocean. This is how we can be one with God, not in flesh but one in spirit. Just as a drop of water dropped into a lake becomes one with the lake so it is with spirit. But we do not lose our identity. God is God in identity and we have our own identity, for our soul is saved and God is not our soul. But we can also be gods. That is we can partake of God's nature. But we are who we are and God is the 'I am'. He is the ever existing one.

    I think this is where a lot of people get confused. Some say Jesus is God because he is divine. Others even say that we are all God and still others say that Jesus is just a man. But we need to understand that indentity and nature are different. When we understand the difference we can easily discern that our messiah is not God himself, but is divine and of God. On the otherhand, we can also see that he is simply not just a man either. For surely if we believe that he is just a man, then we are cursed. As it is written:

    Jeremiah 17:5
    This is what the LORD says: “Cursed is the one who trusts in man, who depends on flesh for his strength and whose heart turns away from the LORD.

    #4866
    WhatIsTrue
    Participant

    Nick,

    I agree that the Holy Spirit comes upon us when we are called.  However, I am not sure how you are defining our spirits now, so I don't know if I agree with you on that.  Could you explain your new definition?  (You should probably do it in the “What is Man” discussion, but I wanted to make sure that I responded to you here.)

    T8,

    Quote
    I think this is where a lot of people get confused. Some say Jesus is God because he is divine. Others even say that we are all God and still others say that Jesus is just a man. But we need to understand that indentity and nature are different. When we understand the difference we can easily discern that our messiah is not God himself, but is divine and of God. On the otherhand, we can also see that he is simply not just a man either. For surely if we believe that he is just a man, then we are cursed. As it is written:

    Jeremiah 17:5
    This is what the LORD says: “Cursed is the one who trusts in man, who depends on flesh for his strength and whose heart turns away from the LORD.

    You are painting with a pretty broad brush using that one verse.  By your interpretation, we shouldn't even trust Jeremiah, or any scripture, as they came to us by men.  Those that believe that Yeshua was a man believe that he was God's special annointed one – (that is the very definition of messiah, or christ, if you prefer the Greek) – meaning that he was more annointed than any other man in history to bring us God's message, and to fulfill the plan of salvation.  That would mean that he was more annointed than Jeremiah, whom you trust, more than Moses, whom you also trust, and more than Paul, whose words you quote and trust more often than the words of Yeshua himself.  Ultimately, neither you nor I are trusting in the messengers that God sends us.  We are trusting in the message that they bring us, trusting that it is the message of God.  That is why it was so important that Yeshua did not speak his own words, but the words of his Father.  Those that believe Yeshua was a man believe that God kept his promise to raise up a righteous Prophet and King from the seed of David.  Those that believe that Yeshua was divine and that he pre-existed David, Abraham, and in fact was actively involved in the creation of the whole world, turn that promise into a mystical slight of hand.  (i.e.  Yeshua is really the direct seed of God, and David has nothing to do with his existence whatsoever.)

    By the way, did you see my last post at the end of page 7?  You didn't respond to my question about the “Logos”, so I assume that you might have missed it.

    #4867
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi WIT,
    Do you believe that the Word of God is written by the Holy Spirit through men?If you do then any questions about human authorship are irrelevant. Also any comparison or division between any of those authors has no place for all that men add is style from their personality.
    If you don't then can fall into the trap of following Paul, or Apollos or Jeremiah in the same way some christians were warned off. The Spirit of God is greater than any natural man uses as vessel and so is God's word.

    Is it the Spirit of God who teaches through all scripture giving it harmony and completeness and balance.Yes.

    If you do believe these things scripture teaches then do you believe Jesus is the Son of God who was with God in the beginning and was sent into the world? Do you believe he is the Messiah, the prophesied Son of David come as servant in the flesh and coming again as ruler of the earth?
    Scripture also teaches all these things.

    Do we believe these revealed truths …..or is understanding essential first as it was with Thomas?
    We cannot make our understanding more important than the Word of God. That can become idolatry of our mind surely?

    If Jesus was only man then you also must deny scriptures that he was conceived of the Spirit? You also deny that he was of divine nature and humbled himself becoming like us in every way in the flesh as a man. I am sure you know these truths so am interested how you can seem to discard them?.

    #4871
    WhatIsTrue
    Participant

    Nick,

    You wrote:

    Quote
    Do you believe that the Word of God is written by the Holy Spirit through men?

    I wrote in my previous post:

    Quote
    Ultimately, neither you nor I are trusting in the messengers that God sends us.  We are trusting in the message that they bring us, trusting that it is the message of God.

    You wrote:

    Quote
    If you do believe these things scripture teaches then do you believe Jesus is the Son of God who was with God in the beginning and was sent into the world?

    John 1 says that the Word was in the beginning with God.  It does not say that “Jesus” was.  You are assuming that Jesus is the Word.  I don't know of any scripture that says that.  You could infer it from John 1:14, but that assumes that you understand exactly what is meant by “the Word becoming flesh”.  Could it also just as easily mean God's plan coming to fruition in the life of Yeshua?

    You wrote:

    Quote
    Do you believe he is the Messiah, the prophesied Son of David come as servant in the flesh and coming again as ruler of the earth?

    I wrote in my previous post:

    Quote
    Those that believe that Yeshua was a man believe that he was God's special annointed one – (that is the very definition of messiah, or christ, if you prefer the Greek) – meaning that he was more annointed than any other man in history to bring us God's message, and to fulfill the plan of salvation.  …  Those that believe Yeshua was a man believe that God kept his promise to raise up a righteous Prophet and King from the seed of David.

    You wrote:

    Quote
    Do we believe these revealed truths …..or is understanding essential first as it was with Thomas?
    We cannot make our understanding more important than the Word of God. That can become idolatry of our mind surely?

    I agree.  Is your understanding about pre-existence coming from the OT scriptures that the Bereans searched, or is it coming from a Greek interpretation of the NT?

    You wrote:

    Quote
    If Jesus was only man then you also must deny scriptures that he was conceived of the Spirit? You also deny that he was of divine nature and humbled himself becoming like us in every way in the flesh as a man. I am sure you know these truths so am interested how you can seem to discard them?.

    We have already discussed the whole virgin birth doctrine and my doubts about its authenticity, and especially the authenticity of the Matthew passage, (one of only two), that asserts it.  Unless you want to reopen that discussion, I will let my previous thoughts on the matter stand.

    As for the Phillipians verse you referenced, let's look at it in context:

    Phillipians 2:
    “6Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, 7but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. 8And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death– even death on a cross! 9Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name, 10that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.”

    If your understanding of this passage is correct, that “Jesus” left heaven to become a man, then can you tell me what position of authority or place he had in heaven before he left?  Why did God have to exalt him if he was already the only begotten son of God since before the world began?  Would he not have already been above the angels and above all of mankind, by nature of his birth and inheritance alone?  Shouldn't he simply be returning to his position, and not just for the first time, coming into it?

    #4875
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi WIT,
    I believe Jesus is the Word of God or Logos.
    Rev 19.11
    “The heavens were opened and as I looked on , a white horse appeared; it's rider was called 'The faithful and true'.Justice is his standard in passing judgement and in waging war. His eyes blazed like fire, and on his head were many diadems. Inscribed on his person was a name known to no one but himself. He wore a cloak that had been dipped in blood and his name was the Word of God. The armies of heaven were behind him riding white horses and dressed in fine linen, pure and white. Out of his mouth came a sharp sword for striking down the nations . He will shepherd the nations with an iron rod;it is he who will tread out in the winepress the blazing wrath of God the Almighty. A name was written of part of the cloak that covered his thigh  
    'King of kings and Lord of lords' “
    Do you not say this is Jesus??

    Yes we must trust the messengers as well as their message.

    The firstborn Son of God had higher rank than all the other sons of God who were present before the creation of earth as shown in Job 38.7 and Ps 89.7. He always was higher than the angels and that is why it says he became for a time lower than the angels in Heb 2. He came to earth and overcame the prince of this world and subjects everything in creation again to himself and then subjects himself and all again to the Father, as 1 Cor 15 24f tell us.
    He then is exalted by th Father as Lord of lords and sits at the right hand of the Father-far greater glory than he previously held. He is proven worthy for all knees to bow to him by his utter obedience[Phil 2.9f].
    I do understand your doubts, but do not agree with them, about the virgin birth but I did not know you also doubted that Jesus was conceived of the Spirit as well.

    #4876
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Quote (WhatIsTrue @ Dec. 11 2004,12:36)
    You are painting with a pretty broad brush using that one verse.  By your interpretation, we shouldn't even trust Jeremiah, or any scripture, as they came to us by men.  Those that believe that Yeshua was a man believe that he was God's special annointed one – (that is the very definition of messiah, or christ, if you prefer the Greek) – meaning that he was more annointed than any other man in history to bring us God's message, and to fulfill the plan of salvation.  That would mean that he was more annointed than Jeremiah, whom you trust, more than Moses, whom you also trust, and more than Paul, whose words you quote and trust more often than the words of Yeshua himself.  Ultimately, neither you nor I are trusting in the messengers that God sends us.  We are trusting in the message that they bring us, trusting that it is the message of God.  That is why it was so important that Yeshua did not speak his own words, but the words of his Father.  Those that believe Yeshua was a man believe that God kept his promise to raise up a righteous Prophet and King from the seed of David.  Those that believe that Yeshua was divine and that he pre-existed David, Abraham, and in fact was actively involved in the creation of the whole world, turn that promise into a mystical slight of hand.  (i.e.  Yeshua is really the direct seed of God, and David has nothing to do with his existence whatsoever.)


    Hi WhatisTue,

    This is a good point. But I would still say that if Jesus were just flesh, then we would be cursed to trust in him. But as I am sure that you know, he is not just flesh. He came in his Father's name (authority) and John teaches us that he was divine.

    So do I trust in Moses? I trust what God showed him was true and I trust that what God showed Abraham was true. But do I trust them entirely. No I do not. Both men were sinners and they made mistakes, even big ones. So I would be cursed to trust in them and to use them as the measuring stick for righteousness. I do not even trust the translators who translated the words and happenings of Moses and Abraham. But I trust that all scripture is inspired by God and we do need to study in order to see what the scriptures are saying and what the translators may have got wrong.

    But do I trust in Christ 100%? Yes I do. I trust him even though he came as a man and partook of the flesh, I trust him emphatically. I trust him more than anyone bar the Father. Even the Father tells us that Jesus is his beloved son in whom he was well pleased. Jesus even said “trust in God and trust in also in me”. Furthermore we are told that to have the Father we must also have the son.

    So I trust in the son because he is the only way to the God in whom I could not fellowship with by reason of my own sin. I trust that Christ is the one who brings me back to God. I trust the son as he is the only begotten of the Father and even though he has his own will, he still chose to be obedient to God. Even God approves him. But I do not trust in Moses, Abraham or even myself. We are all weak in the flesh and God is not a man that he should lie.

    But in my spirit I have a witness to God's Spirit. This is what I trust above my own flesh. When I hear the Spirit I trust that which he shows me, even if my mind is offended by what he says. When I read from writings that were inspired by the Spirit, that is what I trust. When I hear a scientific theory I do not trust it. I consider it, but I do not trust in it emphatically.

    I trust no man, not even myself, for all flesh is weak. But thank God that we have the Spirit and we only need be lead by God's Spirit if we are to be the sons of God.

    #4877
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Quote (WhatIsTrue @ Dec. 11 2004,12:36)
    (i.e.  Yeshua is really the direct seed of God, and David has nothing to do with his existence whatsoever.)


    To WhatisTrue,

    What I say is not a complete answer, but I offer it for consideration.

    If we can be the children of Abraham even though we are not direct descendants of him, then perhaps Jesus can be the son of David even if it were true that he was not derived through David's line.

    Matthew 3:9
    And do not think you can say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ I tell you that out of these stones God can raise up children for Abraham.

    John 8:40
    “If you were Abraham's children,” said Jesus, “then you would [ Some early manuscripts “If you are Abraham's children,” said Jesus, “then] do the things Abraham did. As it is, you are determined to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God. Abraham did not do such things.

    Galatians 3:7
    Understand, then, that those who believe are children of Abraham.

    The point is that we sometimes put too much trust in the natural, when time and time again I see that what I sometimes think is happening in the natural has a much deeper meaning in the Spirit.

    That is why it is written in 1 Corinthians 2:14:
    But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

    It is also written somewhere that God's ways are not our ways. So if I were to take a complete natural stance in judging who were the children of Abraham, then I would be wrong by reason of my exclusion of the spiritual meaning which is the meaning that matters to God.

    This is done so the natural man cannot understand. God hides his truth but lets those who are noble seek it out.

    But in saying all this, I do not exclude that Christ could have been the natural son of David too. For a cultural reason like being a Jew by adoption equating to being a descendent of David through Joseph. Or through Mary's line as a direct natural descendant. I do not have enough info to teach about this.

    #4878
    WhatIsTrue
    Participant

    Nick,
    Yes, I believe the figure in Revelations 19:11 is Yeshua.  (For the record, given that the book is highly symbolic, I admit to a strong likelihood that I might misunderstand it.)  I'm glad that you bring up this scripture, so I can understand your beliefs about “the Logos” better.  Here are my questions:

    What is the Logos?  Is it all of God's thoughts?  Is it simply the name of the pre-existent Messiah?  Or is it something else altogether?

    Assuming that “the Logos” is an actual person, what was he before the world began?  An angel?  The embodiment of God's thoughts?  A god?

    Quote
    The firstborn Son of God had higher rank than all the other sons of God who were present before the creation of earth as shown in Job 38.7 and Ps 89.7. He always was higher than the angels and that is why it says he became for a time lower than the angels in Heb 2. He came to earth and overcame the prince of this world and subjects everything in creation again to himself and then subjects himself and all again to the Father, as 1 Cor 15 24f tell us.
    He then is exalted by th Father as Lord of lords and sits at the right hand of the Father-far greater glory than he previously held. He is proven worthy for all knees to bow to him by his utter obedience[Phil 2.9f].

    Based on Job 38:7 and Psalm 89:7, you seem to be grouping him with angels.  That's what those two verses are referring to.

    In the Hebrew passage, it does not say that he became lower than the angels.  It says that he was made lower than the angels.  That passage was first applied to mankind in general and then to Yeshua.  We are all made lower than the angels as a matter of rank in creation.  In the Kingdom of God, that passage will be fulfilled for all of mankind that overcomes.  Man will once again have the entire world in subjection to him, as Adam did before the fall.

    The meaning of the other passages that you quote depend upon the foundation that we are building on.  I need to better understand your “Logos doctrine” before I can comment any further.

    Quote
    I do understand your doubts, but do not agree with them, about the virgin birth but I did not know you also doubted that Jesus was conceived of the Spirit as well.

    What do you mean by “conceived of the Spirit”?  Are you saying that the Spirit fathered Yeshua through Mary, that God comingled His “seed” with the egg of a woman?  That's how I understand it, and I can not agree with that.

    T8,

    I am on my way out the door, but I just saw your replies.  Let me just ask you this:

    Since you trust in “Jesus” and in Yahweh, and you believe neither to be a man, then is it safe to say that you trust in two gods?

    T8 and Nick,
    I will try to come back soon to continue this very edifying debate.  Thank you both.

    #4881
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi WIT,
    The New Testament says several important things about Jesus

    He is the only begotten Son of God
    He is the firstborn Son
    All creation came through him.

    So if Gen 6,Jb 1,Jb 2, Jb 38 and Ps 89 etc all tell us there are other sons of God who existed before and after creation then what does that mean?

    The Logos existed before all these other sons as they were not begotten but created and he was involved in their creation too or you must conclude scripture is wrong.That is not an option is it?
    As firstborn Son he has the highest position in the household of God after the Father. As only begotten son who helped create these other sons he also has a much higher place than these sons.
    Angels are created .The Logos was not created but begotten .The Logos is not an angel but The Son of God. He was one of the sons of God likely present in Jb1-2. His nature may have been similar to theirs but he always had greater glory because of the reasons mentioned above.

    If you choose to believe Jesus became God's Son at his physical birth then you must say he was not what scripture reveals about him.

    And if you deny he came in the flesh that is the antichrist spirit. He who does not recognise the Son does not know the Father either?

    #4882
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Quote (WhatIsTrue @ Dec. 11 2004,17:27)
    Since you trust in “Jesus” and in Yahweh, and you believe neither to be a man, then is it safe to say that you trust in two gods?


    I trust in God and his son.

    Yes there are many gods, but for me there is one God the Father and Jesus is my Lord.

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