John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 9,721 through 9,740 (of 26,009 total)
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  • #310111
    Frank4YAHWEH
    Participant

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Aug. 22 2012,11:16)
    “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.”

    In Modern Western philosophy the focus is on the individual: the me, myself and I. In contrast to this, the Ancient Hebrew/Eastern philosophy always focuses on the whole or the community: the us, our and we. When we read the Bible we must interpret it according to the culture of the Ancient Hebrews and their Hebrew/Eastern philosophy, and not from our own Modern Greco-Roman/Western philosophy.

    In the Hebrew philosophy, the goal is the elimination of “self,” or the “ego.” If what I am saying is true, then why, when we read Yeshua's words, do we always see Yeshua centered on himself, in complete opposition to Hebrew philosophy. A perfect example of this is John 14:6. “I am the way the truth and the life, no one comes to the father but through me.” The answer is, we are reading the text wrong. We are interpreting it from a Western philosophy and not a Hebrew one.

    To answer this question, we need to take a closer look at John 1:1, a very controversial and, in my opinion, a very misunderstood verse. In the KJV this passage reads, “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.”

    In the Old Testament, we are repeatedly told that the words of God are his teachings, which is the Hebrew word torah. God's teachings are his word. If we place the word teachings, within this verse we have, “In the beginning was the Teaching, and the Teaching was with God, and the Teaching was God.”

    Then in verse 14 we read “And the teachings became flesh.” According to this passage, Yeshua took on the persona of God's teachings. After all, isn't that what Yeshua did? He came to teach the teachings of God.

    Yeshua emptied himself of himself and instead took on the attributes of God's teachings. Therefore, whenever Yeshua speaks, it is not Yeshua speaking, but the teachings. When Yeshua says “I,” the “I” is not Yeshua, it is the teachings.

    When we look at John 14:6 again, but with this understanding, we can read this as “the teachings of God are the way the truth and the life.” Interestingly, this is exactly what God teachings teach in the Old Testament.

    Exodus 18:20 Teach them the Teachings and make known to them the way they are to go.

    Psalm 119:142 Your righteousness is an everlasting righteousness, and your Teaching is the truth.

    Deuteronomy 32:47 Through [the Teachings] you may live long in the land.

    According to these passages, The teachings of God are “the way the truth and the life,” do you think Yeshua would teach anything different from what God himself taught in his teachings?
    SOURCE: [VIDEO] John 1:1 from an Hebraic perspective  

    WHO IS THE WORD?
    John Chapter One

    ELOHIM: ONE, OR MORE THAN ONE?
    Exodus 32
    By Voy Wilks
    3/9/98

    The Pre-existence
    Philippians 2:5-11
    By Voy Wilks
    1/29/92

    Did Yahshua Create Or Pre-exist His Birth?

    “Jesus IS God!”?


    [VIDEO] Early Jewish and Christian Monotheism

    #310113
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Aug. 21 2012,18:00)
    Thus, we have a historic precedent which shows the proper understanding of logos is as the “Divine Plan, thought, or motive” of the Almighty Creator.


    In the beginning was the Divine Plan, and the Divine Plan was with THE God Jehovah, and the Divine Plan was THE God Jehovah.  The Divine Plan became flesh, and dwelled among us with the glory of God's only begotten Son. John the Baptist said that he was unfit to untie the sandal of the Divine Plan.

    Hmmmmmm…………………   A plan of Jehovah used to BE Jehovah, but then became the Son of Jehovah?

    #310114
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (Ed J @ Aug. 21 2012,17:14)
    That is why the translators chose to leave 'god' in all lower case, in many instances.


    So then there actually ARE some “ifs” about it, huh? :)

    #310116
    Frank4YAHWEH
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 22 2012,11:28)

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Aug. 21 2012,18:00)
    Thus, we have a historic precedent which shows the proper understanding of logos is as the “Divine Plan, thought, or motive” of the Almighty Creator.


    In the beginning was the Divine Plan, and the Divine Plan was with THE God Jehovah, and the Divine Plan was THE God Jehovah.  The Divine Plan became flesh, and dwelled among us with the glory of God's only begotten Son.  John the Baptist said that he was unfit to untie the sandal of the Divine Plan.

    Hmmmmmm…………………   A plan of Jehovah used to BE Jehovah, but then became the Son of Jehovah?


    “John the Baptist said that he was unfit to untie the sandal of the Divine Plan.” Such a foolish perversion! :D  

    WHO IS THE WORD?
    John Chapter One

    ELOHIM: ONE, OR MORE THAN ONE?
    Exodus 32
    By Voy Wilks
    3/9/98

    The Pre-existence
    Philippians 2:5-11
    By Voy Wilks
    1/29/92

    Did Yahshua Create Or Pre-exist His Birth?

    “Jesus IS God!”?

    #310117
    Frank4YAHWEH
    Participant

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Aug. 22 2012,11:51)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 22 2012,11:28)

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Aug. 21 2012,18:00)
    Thus, we have a historic precedent which shows the proper understanding of logos is as the “Divine Plan, thought, or motive” of the Almighty Creator.


    In the beginning was the Divine Plan, and the Divine Plan was with THE God Jehovah, and the Divine Plan was THE God Jehovah.  The Divine Plan became flesh, and dwelled among us with the glory of God's only begotten Son.  John the Baptist said that he was unfit to untie the sandal of the Divine Plan.

    Hmmmmmm…………………   A plan of Jehovah used to BE Jehovah, but then became the Son of Jehovah?


    “John the Baptist said that he was unfit to untie the sandal of the Divine Plan.” Such a foolish perversion! :D  

    WHO IS THE WORD?
    John Chapter One

    ELOHIM: ONE, OR MORE THAN ONE?
    Exodus 32
    By Voy Wilks
    3/9/98

    The Pre-existence
    Philippians 2:5-11
    By Voy Wilks
    1/29/92

    Did Yahshua Create Or Pre-exist His Birth?

    “Jesus IS God!”?


    In other words:

    In the beginning was the plan [of Yahweh], and the plan [of Yahweh] was with Him in the beginning, and the plan [of Yahweh] was sublime. The plan [of Yahweh] became flesh, and tabernacled among us with the esteem of Yahweh's only begotten son [Yahshua].

    #310128
    jammin
    Participant

    ed,

    that is just your opinion.
    you just cant accept the truth about john 1.1 even if you can read that the Word is Christ.

    mike,

    those who say a god in john 1.1 are the translators of NWT LOL

    #310129
    Ed J
    Participant

    Sorry Jammin,

    But it is just not in there.
    Religious doctrine is hard to drop.

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

    #310134
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (Ed J @ Aug. 22 2012,17:18)
    Hi Pierre,

    And because Rev 19:16 is about the “HolySpirit”,  
    the translators chose to use all uppercase letters…

    “And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written,
    KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.” (Revelation 19:16)

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org


    Edj

    But it is not the holy spirit ,it is Christ ,the holy spirit is Gods tool,not a person,

    #310144
    jammin
    Participant

    ed,

    it is hard to ignore the truth. it is hard to ignore the teaching of the apostle. john believes that the Word in john 1.1 is the son of God (christ)

    John 1:14

    Amplified Bible (AMP)

    14 And the Word (Christ) became flesh (human, incarnate) and tabernacled (fixed His tent of flesh, lived awhile) among us; and we [actually] saw His glory (His honor, His majesty), such glory as an only begotten son receives from his father, full of grace (favor, loving-kindness) and truth.

    sorry ed. but that is what the bible says.
    your illusion is not supported by the truth of the bible

    #310146
    limjunus
    Participant

    Quote (jammin @ Aug. 21 2012,23:08)

    Quote (limjunus @ Aug. 21 2012,17:56)

    Quote (limjunus @ Aug. 21 2012,17:51)

    Quote (jammin @ Aug. 21 2012,16:26)
    i think this limjunus is a filipino. LOL
    study common sense boy LOL


    So, what's wrong of being a pilipino? what is the different between you and the pilipino, …Why the color of your blood is blue?

    Where did you discharge your shits, in your mouth so that you can have a different with other races?

    Jammin, show his color, racial discrimination.

    Just admit that you are the one has no common sense, because you could not give the rightful answers with my questions.

    :D


    Jammin, My questions is almost 2 weeks.  you have failed to answer it.

    Meaning, you are nothing here in this discussion.

    Here is one of the 5-common sense.

    Sense of embarrassing/ humiliation. That the common sense you have not.


    think first before asking me boy.
    you said christ is not GOd and you are using NLT to support your doctrine.. you should be ashamed of yourself bec you are using a version that contradicts your belief.
    LOL

    so you think is there a need to answer you boy???
    you cant even understand the version you are using. LOL

    do you believe that your father is truly HUMAN???
    do you believe that you,just like your father,is truly HUMAN???

    if your answer is yes, you should understnd by now the nature of Christ and his father.
    if your answer is no, then you have a big prblem boy LOL

    you should study hard before talking to me…LOL

    i think you are a member of iglesia ni cristo by felix manalo. LOL
    you have the teaching of that false preacher LOL


    Jammin,

    The NLT version is not contradicting the truth about the truly God. Your understanding with the verses of the Bible was crushing head-on with the truth about the Oneness of God.

    Here is your stand: ” Jesus Christ is truly God with the truly God in the beginning” John 1:1

    Here is the verses of the Bible you are crushing head-on:

    John 17:1,3 ERV.

    “…that they may know you [Father] the only true God…”

    John 7:16 NKJV

    “Jesus answered them and said, “My doctrine is not Mine, but His who sent Me.”

    John 5:37 NKJV

    “And the Father Himself, who sent Me, has testified of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time, nor seen His form.”

    John 7:28 NKJV

    “Then Jesus cried out, as He taught in the temple, saying, “You both know Me, and you know where I am from; and I have not come of Myself, but He who sent Me is true, whom you do not know.”

    John 12:49 NKJV
    “For I have not spoken on My own authority; but the Father who sent Me gave Me a command, what I should say and what I should speak.”

    Jammin said, Jesus Christ is truly God. So, Jammin recognized truly God, has his own truly God and obeying the commandment from another truly God.

    Oh' come on Jammin, Do you really have common sense?

    You just sticking with the verses that contradict the truth of the Bible? Find the truth Jammin and not the contradictory trnaslation.

    #310147
    limjunus
    Participant

    Quote (jammin @ Aug. 21 2012,23:08)

    Quote (limjunus @ Aug. 21 2012,17:56)

    Quote (limjunus @ Aug. 21 2012,17:51)

    Quote (jammin @ Aug. 21 2012,16:26)
    i think this limjunus is a filipino. LOL
    study common sense boy LOL


    So, what's wrong of being a pilipino? what is the different between you and the pilipino, …Why the color of your blood is blue?

    Where did you discharge your shits, in your mouth so that you can have a different with other races?

    Jammin, show his color, racial discrimination.

    Just admit that you are the one has no common sense, because you could not give the rightful answers with my questions.

    :D


    Jammin, My questions is almost 2 weeks.  you have failed to answer it.

    Meaning, you are nothing here in this discussion.

    Here is one of the 5-common sense.

    Sense of embarrassing/ humiliation. That the common sense you have not.


    think first before asking me boy.
    you said christ is not GOd and you are using NLT to support your doctrine.. you should be ashamed of yourself bec you are using a version that contradicts your belief.
    LOL

    so you think is there a need to answer you boy???
    you cant even understand the version you are using. LOL

    do you believe that your father is truly HUMAN???
    do you believe that you,just like your father,is truly HUMAN???

    if your answer is yes, you should understnd by now the nature of Christ and his father.
    if your answer is no, then you have a big prblem boy LOL

    you should study hard before talking to me…LOL

    i think you are a member of iglesia ni cristo by felix manalo. LOL
    you have the teaching of that false preacher LOL


    Do not involve any religious organization here Jammin.

    We are discussing the Bible passages and not any religious group

    Just admit that you can not answer my questions then I will not ask it again or else, answer it so that you can show to the readers that you have something in your mind?

    Comaparison:

    Jammin said: Jesus Christ is the One and only truly God.

    Jesus Christ said: “… my Father is the one and only truly God.

    Now, who is telling a lie, Jesus Christ or Jammin?

    :D

    #310148
    limjunus
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 22 2012,06:22)

    Quote (limjunus @ Aug. 21 2012,00:25)
    He always question this: “How many nature you have “boy”? One or two?

    Diverting the main issue to the matter that's not relevant.


    Yep, DIVERSION is jammin's way of trying not to let the rest of us know he can't answer our questions.  For some reason, he thinks we can't see that he is hiding from the questions.   ???

    I especially like this last diversion he used on you: how can i answer a person without common sense??? LOL    

    REALLY jammin?   :D  :laugh:  :D


    Mike,

    Comprehend this:

    Jammin proclaimed: “Jesus Christ is the One and only truly God”

    Jesus Christ proclaimed: “My father is the one and only truly God”

    Now, who is no common sense, Jesus Christ or Jammin?

    #310149
    limjunus
    Participant

    Quote (Ed J @ Aug. 22 2012,02:24)

    Quote (jammin @ Aug. 21 2012,23:11)
    ed,

    the bible said that the Word in john 1.1 is the son of God who is himself God. .


    No, God's word does NOT say that.


    Ed J,

    But Jammin, insisting the God's words say it so.

    Jammin said, Jesus Christ is truly God receiving order from his own Father, the one and only truly God.

    Truly God, commanding a truly God or versa-versa?

    Crushing head-on the fundamental doctrine from God, that He is alone and there is no other God besides me.

    Ignoring also the doctrines of Jesus Christ. that his Father is the one and only true God

    :D

    #310150
    jammin
    Participant

    you talk too much limjunus.
    your words are non sense.

    do you believe that your father is truly HUMAN??yes or no?

    do you believe that you, just like your father, is also TRULY HUMAN?? yes or no?

    #310151
    jammin
    Participant

    Quote (limjunus @ Aug. 22 2012,18:38)

    Quote (jammin @ Aug. 21 2012,23:08)

    Quote (limjunus @ Aug. 21 2012,17:56)

    Quote (limjunus @ Aug. 21 2012,17:51)

    Quote (jammin @ Aug. 21 2012,16:26)
    i think this limjunus is a filipino. LOL
    study common sense boy LOL


    So, what's wrong of being a pilipino? what is the different between you and the pilipino, …Why the color of your blood is blue?

    Where did you discharge your shits, in your mouth so that you can have a different with other races?

    Jammin, show his color, racial discrimination.

    Just admit that you are the one has no common sense, because you could not give the rightful answers with my questions.

    :D


    Jammin, My questions is almost 2 weeks.  you have failed to answer it.

    Meaning, you are nothing here in this discussion.

    Here is one of the 5-common sense.

    Sense of embarrassing/ humiliation. That the common sense you have not.


    think first before asking me boy.
    you said christ is not GOd and you are using NLT to support your doctrine.. you should be ashamed of yourself bec you are using a version that contradicts your belief.
    LOL

    so you think is there a need to answer you boy???
    you cant even understand the version you are using. LOL

    do you believe that your father is truly HUMAN???
    do you believe that you,just like your father,is truly HUMAN???

    if your answer is yes, you should understnd by now the nature of Christ and his father.
    if your answer is no, then you have a big prblem boy LOL

    you should study hard before talking to me…LOL

    i think you are a member of iglesia ni cristo by felix manalo. LOL
    you have the teaching of that false preacher LOL


    Jammin,

    [b]The NLT version is not contradicting the truth about the truly God.  


    truly.
    bec the NLT believes that Christ is God
    John 1:18

    New Living Translation (NLT)

    18 No one has ever seen God. But the unique One, who is himself God, is near to the Father’s heart. He has revealed God to us.

    =——–
    therefore, your words are non sense boy LOL
    you are using a bible that contradicts your belief.(bec you believe that Christ is not God but NLT believes he is God)
    sorry boy. the NLT is not supporting your false doctrine LOL

    #310152
    limjunus
    Participant

    Quote (carmel @ Aug. 22 2012,06:49)

    Quote
    Carmel, the above wisdom is not my own opinion and it is very plainly truth from the Bible.
     

    LIMJUNUS,

    Since you felt uncomfortable to define, read and reflect:

    KJV:

    Romans1:19Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

    BY JESUS,AND IN JESUS WHILE ON EARTH!!

    20For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made,

    BY JESUS, AND IN JESUS HIMSELF WHILE ON EARTH!!

    even his eternal power and Godhead;

    AS GOD MAN

    so that they are without excuse:

    John 15:23He that hateth me hateth my Father also.

    24If I had not done among them the works which none other man did, they had not had sin: but now have they both seen and hated both me and my Father.

    25But this cometh to pass, that the word might be fulfilled that is written in their law, They hated me without a cause.

    21Because that, when they knew God,

    THROUGH JESUS WHILE ON EARTH

    they glorified him not as God,

    ALTHOUGH THE ONLY VISIBLE GOD

    neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

    22Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

    23And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God

    JESUS CHRIST

    into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

    [B]SO YOU ARE WRONG FOR HUMANS THERE ARE NO VISIBLE CARNAL GODS EXCEPT JESUS SINCE THROUGH HIM THEY WERE BORN AGAIN IN THE SPIRIT AND WERE RECONCILED ONTO HIMSELF TO BE ONE WITH HIM AND IN THE SAME INSTANT WITH THE FATHER

    COLOSSIANS 1:For it PLEASED THE FATHER that in him(JESUS CHRIST) should ALL FULNESS DWELL;

    20And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself;

    SINCE THROUGH HIM THEY WERE BORN AGAIN IN THE SPIRIT AND WERE RECONCILED ONTO HIMSELF TO BE ONE WITH HIM AND IN THE SAME INSTANT WITH THE FATHER

    by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

    [/B]jOHN17:1These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:

    WHO IS GLORIFYING WHO???

    THE FATHER , THE SON OR BOTH???

    EXPLAIN HOW THE SON GLORIFIES THE FATHER,AND THE FATHER GLORIFIES THE SON!!!

    2As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he (Jesus)should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.(all creation)

    WHO GIVES ETERNAL LIFE THE FATHER, THE SON OR
    BOTH???

    WHEN AND WHY THE FATHER GAVE THE SON ALL POWER OVER ALL FLESH???

    WHY ALMIGHTY GOD NEEDED A SON TO DO ALL THIS??

    OR IS IT THE SAME SPIRIT IN A DIFFERENT AND AN ADDITIONAL ATTRIBUTE AS A MEDIATOR OF GOD???  THEREFORE GOD HIMSELF!!!

    And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

    SO THE FATHER BECAME THE TRUE GOD, AND JESUS CHRIST!!

    NOT JUST GOD ANY MORE BUT BOTH, THE SPIRIT GOD, AND THE FLESH GOD, IN ONE MYSTICAL BODY.

    4I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

    HOW AND WHEN JESUS GLORIFED THE FATHER ON EARTH COULDN'T THE FATHER DO IT ALL BY HIMSELF, OR BOTH ??

    THE FATHER IN THE SON , AND THE SON IN THE FATHER[/B]

    LUKE 10:22All things are delivered to me of my Father: and no man knoweth who the Son is, but the Father; and who the Father is, but the Son, and he to whom the Son will reveal him. ONLY THE SON HAS THE RIGHT TO REVEAL HIM, SINCE HE IS THE TRUE VISIBLE GOD.

    [B]
    5And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

    AGAIN, FIRST THE SON GLORIFIED THE FATHER ON EARTH, AND NOW THE FATHER GLORIFIES THE SON IN HIMSELF LIKE HE WAS BEFORE THE WORLD WAS IN EXISTANCE.

    SO THEY BOTH GLORIFIES EACH OTHER THEREFORE THE SAME SPIRIT ONE GOD IN BOTH!!

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles


    Carmel,

    In all of the verses you had post, nothing saying that Jesus Christ is the one and only true God. You have used the verses and simply adding your own conclusion so that you can introduce a context made only from and by your own understanding.

    Why not rebut verse by verse the whole context of the truth from the Bible I have post?

    As what i have said. It is not my own opinion. The truth were from the Bible, better reda it again and honestly comprehend it.

    #310153
    limjunus
    Participant

    Quote (jammin @ Aug. 22 2012,19:13)

    Quote (limjunus @ Aug. 22 2012,18:38)

    Quote (jammin @ Aug. 21 2012,23:08)

    Quote (limjunus @ Aug. 21 2012,17:56)

    Quote (limjunus @ Aug. 21 2012,17:51)

    Quote (jammin @ Aug. 21 2012,16:26)
    i think this limjunus is a filipino. LOL
    study common sense boy LOL


    So, what's wrong of being a pilipino? what is the different between you and the pilipino, …Why the color of your blood is blue?

    Where did you discharge your shits, in your mouth so that you can have a different with other races?

    Jammin, show his color, racial discrimination.

    Just admit that you are the one has no common sense, because you could not give the rightful answers with my questions.

    :D


    Jammin, My questions is almost 2 weeks.  you have failed to answer it.

    Meaning, you are nothing here in this discussion.

    Here is one of the 5-common sense.

    Sense of embarrassing/ humiliation. That the common sense you have not.


    think first before asking me boy.
    you said christ is not GOd and you are using NLT to support your doctrine.. you should be ashamed of yourself bec you are using a version that contradicts your belief.
    LOL

    so you think is there a need to answer you boy???
    you cant even understand the version you are using. LOL

    do you believe that your father is truly HUMAN???
    do you believe that you,just like your father,is truly HUMAN???

    if your answer is yes, you should understnd by now the nature of Christ and his father.
    if your answer is no, then you have a big prblem boy LOL

    you should study hard before talking to me…LOL

    i think you are a member of iglesia ni cristo by felix manalo. LOL
    you have the teaching of that false preacher LOL


    Jammin,

    [b]The NLT version is not contradicting the truth about the truly God.  


    truly.
    bec the NLT believes that Christ is God
    John 1:18

    New Living Translation (NLT)

    18 No one has ever seen God. But the unique One, who is himself God, is near to the Father’s heart. He has revealed God to us.

    =——–
    therefore, your words are non sense boy LOL
    you are using a bible that contradicts your belief.(bec you believe that Christ is not God but NLT believes he is God)
    sorry boy. the NLT is not supporting your false doctrine LOL


    Oh' really, Jammin?

    Jesus Christ said, “My Father is the one and only truly God.”

    Jammin said, “The begotten Son is the one and only truly God.”

    Who is contradicting the truth about God, Jammin or Jesus Christ?

    Jammin, stick with your mindset that Jesus Christ is the one and only truly God and I will stick to the words and mind of Jesus Christ, that his Father is the one and only truly God.

    :D

    #310154
    limjunus
    Participant

    Quote (jammin @ Aug. 22 2012,19:10)
    you talk too much limjunus.
    your words are non sense.

    do you believe that your father is truly HUMAN??yes or no?

    do you believe that you, just like your father, is also TRULY HUMAN?? yes or no?


    My Father is truly human and I also truly human, both of us are truly human but we are not only one as truly human nature but two truly human nature.

    The nature of God, is not the same of human nature, human nature is a single specie but could be multiplied, many numbers and all of them are truly human in nature.

    God is not an specie. He is the source of everything and he is in everything. He is spirit one and only truly God and could not be multiplied like the specie of the human being.

    The true God is one and only number, not many numbers.

    How many times I have answered you about, Mike also have answered you already. Why Jammin, ..you are pond of hiding with this kind of question?

    It's seem you have nothing but just a recycling garbage question?

    #310155
    jammin
    Participant

    Quote (limjunus @ Aug. 22 2012,20:02)

    Quote (jammin @ Aug. 22 2012,19:10)
    you talk too much limjunus.
    your words are non sense.

    do you believe that your father is truly HUMAN??yes or no?

    do you believe that you, just like your father, is also TRULY HUMAN?? yes or no?


    My Father is truly human and I also truly human, both of us are truly human


    good.

    now you agree that BOTH of you are truly HUMAN.

    i want to repeat again my question.
    do you believe that both of you have only one nature and that is your HUMAN nature??? yes or no???

    #310156
    jammin
    Participant

    Quote (limjunus @ Aug. 22 2012,19:32)

    Quote (jammin @ Aug. 22 2012,19:13)

    Quote (limjunus @ Aug. 22 2012,18:38)

    Quote (jammin @ Aug. 21 2012,23:08)

    Quote (limjunus @ Aug. 21 2012,17:56)

    Quote (limjunus @ Aug. 21 2012,17:51)

    Quote (jammin @ Aug. 21 2012,16:26)
    i think this limjunus is a filipino. LOL
    study common sense boy LOL


    So, what's wrong of being a pilipino? what is the different between you and the pilipino, …Why the color of your blood is blue?

    Where did you discharge your shits, in your mouth so that you can have a different with other races?

    Jammin, show his color, racial discrimination.

    Just admit that you are the one has no common sense, because you could not give the rightful answers with my questions.

    :D


    Jammin, My questions is almost 2 weeks.  you have failed to answer it.

    Meaning, you are nothing here in this discussion.

    Here is one of the 5-common sense.

    Sense of embarrassing/ humiliation. That the common sense you have not.


    think first before asking me boy.
    you said christ is not GOd and you are using NLT to support your doctrine.. you should be ashamed of yourself bec you are using a version that contradicts your belief.
    LOL

    so you think is there a need to answer you boy???
    you cant even understand the version you are using. LOL

    do you believe that your father is truly HUMAN???
    do you believe that you,just like your father,is truly HUMAN???

    if your answer is yes, you should understnd by now the nature of Christ and his father.
    if your answer is no, then you have a big prblem boy LOL

    you should study hard before talking to me…LOL

    i think you are a member of iglesia ni cristo by felix manalo. LOL
    you have the teaching of that false preacher LOL


    Jammin,

    [b]The NLT version is not contradicting the truth about the truly God.  


    truly.
    bec the NLT believes that Christ is God
    John 1:18

    New Living Translation (NLT)

    18 No one has ever seen God. But the unique One, who is himself God, is near to the Father’s heart. He has revealed God to us.

    =——–
    therefore, your words are non sense boy LOL
    you are using a bible that contradicts your belief.(bec you believe that Christ is not God but NLT believes he is God)
    sorry boy. the NLT is not supporting your false doctrine LOL


    Oh' really, Jammin?

    Jesus Christ said, “My Father is the one and only truly God.”

    Jammin said, “The begotten Son is the one and only truly God.”

    Who is contradicting the truth about God, Jammin or Jesus Christ?

    Jammin, stick with your mindset that Jesus Christ is the one and only truly God and I will stick to the words and mind of Jesus Christ, that his Father is the one and only truly God.

    :D


    you talk non sense boy.

    have not you read the john 1.18 of NLT??
    i thought Christ is not God, but NLT believes he is God.
    why are you using NLT to prove Christ is not God?? LOL

    your brain has no nutrition boy.

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