John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 9,421 through 9,440 (of 26,009 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #308922
    Wakeup
    Participant

    You guys make me laugh sometimes,give the man a chance to express himself,after all it is God that gives the measure of things.

    wakeup.

    #308924
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (Wakeup @ Aug. 13 2012,00:19)
    You guys make me laugh sometimes,give the man a chance to express himself,after all it is God that gives the measure of things.

    wakeup.


    wup

    I agree with you ,but we all have dealt with him and come to nothing and yet we have shown him scriptures ,what he refuse to answer and comes back with his ritual same and same question that really don't make sens ,we have given him a drink,a blanket,water,food ,he all spill it to nothing ,

    but we will not stop you from discussing with him ,but I am done until he shows better understanding in scriptures ,

    #308931
    Wakeup
    Participant

    Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 12 2012,17:28)

    Quote (Wakeup @ Aug. 13 2012,00:19)
    You guys make me laugh sometimes,give the man a chance to express himself,after all it is God that gives the measure of things.

    wakeup.


    wup

    I agree with you ,but we all have dealt with him and come to nothing and yet we have shown him scriptures ,what he refuse to answer and comes back with his ritual same and same question that really don't make sens ,we have given him a drink,a blanket,water,food ,he all spill it to nothing ,

    but we will not stop you from discussing with him ,but I am done until he shows better understanding in scriptures ,


    Terra.

    We dont know of what church he belongs to,they are prisoners of the church,he thinks he is doing his church a favour. If he is genuine,God will lead him to the truth,if he is not, then he will stay in his prison.

    wakeup.

    #308933
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (Wakeup @ Aug. 13 2012,00:41)

    Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 12 2012,17:28)

    Quote (Wakeup @ Aug. 13 2012,00:19)
    You guys make me laugh sometimes,give the man a chance to express himself,after all it is God that gives the measure of things.

    wakeup.


    wup

    I agree with you ,but we all have dealt with him and come to nothing and yet we have shown him scriptures ,what he refuse to answer and comes back with his ritual same and same question that really don't make sens ,we have given him a drink,a blanket,water,food ,he all spill it to nothing ,

    but we will not stop you from discussing with him ,but I am done until he shows better understanding in scriptures ,


    Terra.

    We dont know of what church he belongs to,they are prisoners of the church,he thinks he is doing his church a favour. If he is genuine,God will lead him to the truth,if he is not, then he will stay in his prison.

    wakeup.


    wup

    right :)

    #308958
    Devolution
    Participant

    [quote=mikeboll64,Aug. 12 2012,08:04][/quote]
    Mike,

    Quote
    What does that have to do with the KJV's mistranslation of the Greek word “pascha”?

    When Are the Days of Unleavened Bread?

    Here is what the Bible says in Acts 12:1-4

       Now about that time Herod the king stretched forth his hands to vex certain of the church.
       And he killed James the brother of John with the sword.
       And because he saw it pleased the Jews, he proceeded further to take Peter also. (Then were the days of unleavened bread.)
       And when he had apprehended him, he put him in prison, and delivered him to four quaternions of soldiers to keep him; intending after Easter to bring him forth to the people.

    Please note the time in which the apostle James was killed: “Then were the days of unleavened bread.” When were these days?

    The Bible is very specific. In Leviticus 23:5-8 and Numbers 28:16-25 we find two very clear definitions of the days of Passover and the Feast / Days of Unleavened Bread.

       Passover (Hebrew: Pesach) occurs on the 14th day of the first month at even (starting at sunset).
       The Feast and Days of Unleavened Bread start after Passover, on the 15th day of that month (Numbers 28:17) and continuing through the 21st day. Both the 15th and 21st days were treated as Sabbath days, days of worship and not of “servile work” (Lev. 23:7-8; Num. 28:18, 25).

    The Bible tells us clearly: Passover is before the Days of Unleavened Bread, not after.

    What Was Herod Talking About?

    A simple summary of the Scriptures will help us understand. The Bible says Herod killed the apostle James (John's brother) with the sword. Then he took the apostle Peter as well. Those days were the Days of Unleavened Bread when he did this. But while Herod wanted to put Peter in front of the people, (intending to kill him with their approval), he decided to wait for something the Greek calls pascha. Then he would bring out Peter.

    Here is a simple order to keep in mind:

       Passover (14 Abib), then Days of Unleavened Bread (15-21 Abib), then pascha.

    Please note that Passover was before the Days of Unleavened Bread, and this pascha Herod was waiting for was after the Days of Unleavened Bread. Therefore while Herod may have been waiting for Easter (the feast of Ishtar*, which the Greeks also called pascha), he was not waiting for Passover. That is why the King James Bible, in this single instance, had to translate pascha by a word other than Passover.

    The translators of the King James knew their Bible. Do the translators of the modern versions?

    You see Mike. I seeked briefly with an honest approach to God and the truth was revealed to me swiftly so as to answer you. I have never studied with a university of any sort, and yet here is the simple answer in under 5 minutes of my time.
    I am worried for you.
    I rarely do this “interpretation” game, but you on the other hand are soaked in it up to your neck.
    So WHY have YOU not come across this simple answer and yet i have?
    How many more errors are you sprouting AGAINST Gods only true & PRESERVED written word?
    You see how dangerous it is to believe in men and not in God?
    Isn't it time you let go of the academic “career” side and embraced the truth?
    The academic side leads to error and darkness.
    The true way leads to wisdom & life.
    You are not taking the right path Mike.
    Turn around, and come home to the truth Mike, your first love…while there is still a brief time to do this.

    #308963
    carmel
    Participant

    Quote
    The Israelites had a God long before Jesus came to earth.

    Mike,

    I NEVER SAID that THERE WAS NEVER A GOD, BUT IT WAS OF NO USE, FOR THEM SINCE THEY HAD A HEART OF STONE (Satan's)

    IT IS A  FACT THAT THE ISRAELITES NEVER ACCEPTED AN INVISIBLE UNKNOWN GOD. WITH THE EXCEPTION OF THE ELECTS.

    REFLECT:  Even through God’s  manifestation in Jesus wasn’t sufficient.  Jesus cried before He demonstrated Lazarus miracle, and confirmed that He did that miracle with the hope that they may know that He was THE SON OF GOD, GOD IN FLESH!!
    Now read :

    Ezekiel 36: 25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, (Baptizm)and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. 26A new heart also will I give you, and a NEW SPIRIT will I put WITHIN you( SOUL): and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you a HEART OF FLESH. 27And I will put MY SPIRIT WITHIN you, (HOLY SPIRIT)and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

    So God AS A SPIRIT, was of no use to His own people, never mind the rest of the world.

    So God in the flesh body of Jesus, recreated humans anew by being a man like them, lived among and  like them, died like them, glorified, so they also glorify in Him.

    So before the world was, God purposely commenced a process, not for Him, but for the imperfect, to lead them to perfection, even if it meant that HE HIMSELF AS MAN JESUS,  WOULD  HAVE TO BE THE MOST SINFULL BEING ,DIE THE MOST HORRIBLE,AND HUMILIATED DEATH ON A CROSS , AND GO TO HELL IN ORDER TO ACHIEVE THIS.

    John 17:25 Just Father, THE WORLD HATH NOT KNOWN THEE; but I have known thee: and these have known that thou hast sent me.   NOTICE: ONLY THESE since they were sent by the Father, from heaven

    SO HE WAS UNKNOWN. ALTHOUGH HE EXISTED, HE WAS NOT TRUE FOR HUMANS. EXCEPT FOR THE SELECT!!

    Romans 8:1 There is now therefore no condemnation to them THAT ARE IN CHRIST JESUS,

    ( NOT IN THE FATHER, BUT HE HIMSELF OPTED TO BE LIKE SINFUL HUMANS  IN FULL POWER IN CHRIST IN ORDER TO BE OF USE)

    who walk not according to the flesh. 2 For the LAW OF THE SPIRIT, IN CHRIST JESUS,

    hath delivered me from the law of sin and of death. 3 For what the law could not do, OT GOD in that it was weak through the FLESH; God sending his own Son, IN THE LIKENESS OF SINFULL FLESH AND OF SIN,

    ( THE FULL POWER OF THE FATHER ADDED TO  JESUS’ WAS VITAL FOR JESUS NOT TO FALL LIKE ADAM DID)

    HATH CONDEMNED SIN IN THE FLESH.

    DESTROYED HIS FLESH BODY TO DESTROY SIN( Satan’s TWO most powerful assets)

    THE FLESH HAD TO BE DESTROYED,SINCE IT WAS WEAK, REGARDING GOD’S LAW. BUT  JESUS GLORIFIED IT, SPIRITUALIZED IT, THROUGH HIS OWN PEFECTION AS A HUMAN BEING.

    THE REASON THAT IT TOOK ONLY THREE DAYS TO BECOME A SPIRITUAL FLESH BODY. HIS SOUL WAS FULLY BUILT PERFECT AND BECAME REAL,BOTH VISIBLE AND INVISIBLE.

    THEN  LATER,HE  BECAME ONE WITH THE FATHER, THROUGH THE INSERTION OF THE HOLY SPIRIT.

    WHEN JESUS RESURRECTED AND TALKED ONLY TO MAGDALENE, THIS WAS ONLY A SIGN THAT HE WAS ONLY AS A SPIRITUALIZED FLESH BEING,AND NOT IN FULL POWER OF THE FATHER.

    Now Mike, read this hereunder and tell me WHO IS SPEAKING TO JEREMIAH?? THE FATHER OR THE SON??? OR BOTH??

    Jeremiah 32: 27And the word of the Lord came to Jeremiah, saying: Behold I am the Lord the GOD OF ALL FLESH . shall any thing be hard for me?

    AND WHO HAS A HEART( OF FLESH ),AND A SOUL, THE FATHER OR THE SON???  OR BOTH???

    32:41 And I will rejoice over them, when I shall do them good: and I will plant them in this land in truth, with my whole heart, and with all my soul.

    Reflecting on the words : SHALL ANY THING BE HARD FOR ME?”

    SINCE ALL IS DONE BY JESUS’ SPIRIT, AND IN JESUS’ SPIRIT, THE WORD “ME” DOSE IT REPRESENTS THE FATHER OR THE SON,  OR BOTH  SINCE THE FATHER IN THE SON, AND THE SON IN TH FATHER.

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles

    #308966
    jammin
    Participant

    Quote (limjunus @ Aug. 12 2012,17:01)

    Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 12 2012,16:11)

    Quote (limjunus @ Aug. 12 2012,23:08)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 11 2012,10:20)

    Quote (jammin @ Aug. 09 2012,23:39)
    mike,

    God is nature according to paul phil 2.6
    if the bible says nature or form then you must stick to the term.

    make your own bible and make it species


    First of all jammin,

    I don't believe Paul is talking about a species when he writes the word “God” in Phil 2:6.  I believe Paul is referring to an INDIVIDUAL BEING that we all know as “God”.

    Secondly, there are no words in Phil 2:6 that say “God is nature”.  I don't know where you're even getting that from.  ???

    Phil 2 says that Jesus was existing in the form OF God.  

    jammin, whose form was Jesus existing in?  Was he existing in the form of a species known as “God”?  Or in the form of an individual being known as “God”?  Which one, please?

    (It's not that hard of a question, jammin.  Surely you are capable of answering it after all this time, right?  My answer is:  AN INDIVIDUAL BEING.  What's yours?)


    Mike,

    You are talking to Jammin? a machine?,.. a talking machine. It will talk based with it's programs. Limited to what the I.C. Brain input.

    :D


    ARE YOU SURE IT IS NOT A BROKEN MACHINE ???because it keep repeating it self constantly ,like it is stuck on some little words or so :D


    Terrica,

    Broken talking machine? may be more than a broken talking machine.   God is a nature? really broken machine

    Jammin is a really broken talking machine! not good to deal with him.

    :D


    bec you cant answer my question, you are acting like a child boy.
    talk to your minister and study hard.

    next time do not use NLT for your false doctrine. you believe that Christ is not God and you are using NLT to support your illusion but NLT does not supprt your imagination boy.

    NLT believes that Christ is God

    better luck next time

    #308967
    jammin
    Participant

    Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 12 2012,16:11)

    Quote (limjunus @ Aug. 12 2012,23:08)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 11 2012,10:20)

    Quote (jammin @ Aug. 09 2012,23:39)
    mike,

    God is nature according to paul phil 2.6
    if the bible says nature or form then you must stick to the term.

    make your own bible and make it species


    First of all jammin,

    I don't believe Paul is talking about a species when he writes the word “God” in Phil 2:6.  I believe Paul is referring to an INDIVIDUAL BEING that we all know as “God”.

    Secondly, there are no words in Phil 2:6 that say “God is nature”.  I don't know where you're even getting that from.  ???

    Phil 2 says that Jesus was existing in the form OF God.  

    jammin, whose form was Jesus existing in?  Was he existing in the form of a species known as “God”?  Or in the form of an individual being known as “God”?  Which one, please?

    (It's not that hard of a question, jammin.  Surely you are capable of answering it after all this time, right?  My answer is:  AN INDIVIDUAL BEING.  What's yours?)


    Mike,

    You are talking to Jammin? a machine?,.. a talking machine. It will talk based with it's programs. Limited to what the I.C. Brain input.

    :D


    ARE YOU SURE IT IS NOT A BROKEN MACHINE ???because it keep repeating it self constantly ,like it is stuck on some little words or so :D


    i say what is written in the bible.
    how about you???
    LOL

    you are always using your imagination LOL

    imagination has no place here

    #308969
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (jammin @ Aug. 11 2012,20:22)
    by nature, just like your father?? yes or no?


    Yes jammin,

    By nature, I am in many ways LIKE my father.  But I am obviously not the same BEING as my father.

    #308970
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (jammin @ Aug. 11 2012,20:23)
    paul did not say form of nature.


    I agree.

    Paul said “form of God“, right? And what did Paul mean by “God”? Did he mean a species of beings? Or did he mean an individual being?

    #308971
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (limjunus @ Aug. 11 2012,23:08)
    Mike,

    You are talking to Jammin? a machine?,.. a talking machine. It will talk based with it's programs.


    Yes limjunis,

    Like all Trinitarians, jammin seems to have been “programmed” to believe the illogical and unscriptural doctrine that Jesus actually is the very God he is the Son of.

    #308972
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (Wakeup @ Aug. 11 2012,23:23)
    You are right,the word pacha should have been translated as pass over. But at that time,it was easter they are celebrating.
    They have corrupted the passover celebration.Therefore it was translated as easter,which is still not correct.


    That's all I'm trying to point out, Wakeup.  I'm not trying to slam the KJV translation – only trying to point out that the KJV, like all translations, was made by flawed men doing the best they could with what they had to work with at the time.

    They made a mistake in this case, and the NKJV has remedied that mistake.

    But consider the argument you just made concerning “easter”.  You sort of “justify” the blatant mistranslation by saying, Well, they meant easter, so the KJV is not really at fault.

    Now, imagine you were a Trinitarian scribe back in the 5th or 6th century, translating 1 Tim 3:16.  It would have been just as easy for you to say in your mind, Well, I know that Jesus is God Almighty who came in the flesh, and so the words, “who came in the flesh” really mean “God came in the flesh”, so it's not really a “mistranslation” if I just change the word “who” to “God”, is it?

    This is what happened with 1 Tim 3:16.  A well-meaning Trinitarian scribe ALTERED the text from “who” to “God”, based on his “justifiable personal beliefs”.  And since “God” was such a tantalizing translation to the Trinitarians, they just decided to keep “God” and forget all about the original text, which said “who”.

    In this case, it was not the KJV translators who altered the text, for they were just translating from mss that had already been altered to “God”.  But we now know that the older mss had “who”, and that the word “who” was later ALTERED to “God” in that verse.  And since we now know this to be the case, as much as the newer Trinitarian translations would love to have “God” in 1 Tim 3:16, they just can't justify using that altered word in the face of so much evidence against it.

    peace,
    mike

    #308974
    carmel
    Participant

    Quote
    or else all women would have the head of men on their shoulders, and all men would have the head of Jesus on their shoulders.
    The word in this context means “leader”, not a physical head.

    Mike,

    let's see:

    1Corinthians 11:But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.

    Now NOTICE:

    The head of every man is CHRIST. NOTICE ALL MEN

    The head of the woman is man. NOTICE  ONE PARTICULAR WOMAN, NOT AS YOU SAID WOMEN!! WHY????

    Are you in a possition to explain these differences???

    If not, your argument which is a reference to worldly understanding regarding leadership, is not heavenly understanding , which I myself I am more then convinced that it is a description REFRRING TO A MYSTICAL BODY. So in a way it is PARTLY PHYSICAL, AND PARTLY SPIRITUAL.

    Now let's verify even further:

    Mark 12:25For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as the angels which are in heaven

    So they would be as angels, and angels have no sex!!!

    So men and women in your human corrupted understanding has nothing to do with what Paul meant ,which is spiritual understanding!!!

    SO THE WORD HEAD OF Christ,MEN AND WOMAN ARE REFERENCES TO THE KIND OF SPIRITUAL FLESH STATES WHICH THE MEN AND WOMEN EVENTUALLY BE IN THE MYSTICAL BODY OF JESUS CHRIST, IN RESPECT OF THEIR CHURCH FUNCTION WHILE ON EARTH.

    NOW WILL YOU BE SO KIND AND EXPLAIN AS I SAID THE ABOVE DIFFERECES???

    The only way to find the truth, AND LEARN!!

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles

    #308975
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (Devolution @ Aug. 12 2012,06:40)
    I am worried for you.
    I rarely do this “interpretation” game, but you on the other hand are soaked in it up to your neck.
    So WHY have YOU not come across this simple answer and yet i have?
    How many more errors are you sprouting AGAINST Gods only true & PRESERVED written word?


    Hi Devo,

    While I appreciate your concern for my soul, the simple fact of the matter is that the Greek word “pascha” means “passover”, and should be translated as such.

    The NKJV has corrected the faulty translation of the KJV in this case.

    It seems from your post that you are unaware of the fact that the KJV is simply one of many English translations made by flawed men doing the best they could.

    Plus, I don't believe you answered me about those in the world who have never spoken a word of English in their lives.  How does the KJV (“Gods only true & PRESERVED written word”) help them?  Are only English speaking people allowed to have the “real truth” of the scriptures?

    Devo, get over it man.  The KJV is but one of many good English translations of the Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek scriptures.  It is not some magical talisman designed to unlock God's secrets.

    #308976
    carmel
    Participant

    [quote=terraricca,Aug. 12 2012,10:27][/quote]

    Quote
    what Paul says was an illustration to explain the hierarchy in heaven and who are the 144k that will be with Christ the redeemer from the earth

    God his and will be the only true God for all his creation even the son his subdued to him but is not him

    Terraricca,

    I respect your effort,but  for the love of Jesus: be more clear and specific,as I am not within your understanding.

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles

    #308977
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (carmel @ Aug. 12 2012,08:23)

    Quote
    The Israelites had a God long before Jesus came to earth.

    Mike,

    I NEVER SAID that THERE WAS NEVER A GOD, BUT IT WAS OF NO USE, FOR THEM SINCE THEY HAD A HEART OF STONE (Satan's)


    So God was of no use to Noah? Or Abraham? Or Moses? Or David?

    Sorry Charlie – no sale.

    #308978
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (carmel @ Aug. 12 2012,09:46)
    Now NOTICE:

    The head of every man is CHRIST. NOTICE ALL MEN

    The head of the woman is man. NOTICE  ONE PARTICULAR WOMAN, NOT AS YOU SAID WOMEN!! WHY????

    Are you in a possition to explain these differences???


    1 Corinthians 11:3 NRSV
    But I want you to understand that Christ is the head of every man, and the husband is the head of his wife, and God is the head of Christ.

    From NETNotes:  
    Or “the husband is the head of his wife.” The same Greek words translated “man” and “woman” can mean, as determined by context, “husband” and “wife” respectively. Such an approach is followed by NAB, TEV, NRSV, and NLT.

    Charles, all you need to do is substitute the word “head” with the word “boss”, or “leader”, or “ruler” to get the meaning of this verse.

    Man is the “boss” of his wife (especially in Biblical times, when wives were possessions), and Christ is the “boss” of man, and God is the “boss” of Christ.

    It is a simple teaching for anyone who is not trying to force his own doctrine upon the scriptures.

    #308985
    journey42
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 13 2012,02:53)

    Quote (Devolution @ Aug. 12 2012,06:40)
    I am worried for you.
    I rarely do this “interpretation” game, but you on the other hand are soaked in it up to your neck.
    So WHY have YOU not come across this simple answer and yet i have?
    How many more errors are you sprouting AGAINST Gods only true & PRESERVED written word?


    Hi Devo,

    While I appreciate your concern for my soul, the simple fact of the matter is that the Greek word “pascha” means “passover”, and should be translated as such.

    The NKJV has corrected the faulty translation of the KJV in this case.

    It seems from your post that you are unaware of the fact that the KJV is simply one of many English translations made by flawed men doing the best they could.

    Plus, I don't believe you answered me about those in the world who have never spoken a word of English in their lives.  How does the KJV (“Gods only true & PRESERVED written word”) help them?  Are only English speaking people allowed to have the “real truth” of the scriptures?

    Devo, get over it man.  The KJV is but one of many good English translations of the Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek scriptures.  It is not some magical talisman designed to unlock God's secrets.


    Hi Mike

    Do you understand what this is saying?

    Leviticus 23:5   In the fourteenth day of the first month at even is the Lord's passover.
    Leviticus 23:6   And on the fifteenth day of the same month is the feast of unleavened bread unto the Lord: seven days ye must eat unleavened bread.

    Confirmed again
    Numbers 28:16   And in the fourteenth day of the first month is the passover of the Lord.
    Numbers 28:17   And in the fifteenth day of this month is the feast: seven days shall unleavened bread be eaten.  

    The above is what we should address.
    and this below.

    Acts 12:3   And because he saw it pleased the Jews, he proceeded further to take Peter also. (Then were the days of unleavened bread)

    Acts 12:4   And when he had apprehended him, he put him in prison, and delivered him to four quaternions of soldiers to keep him; intending after Easter to bring him for to the people.

    The passover happens on the 14th,
    the very next day (15th) is the feast of unleavened bread.  This goes on for 7 days.

    They were in the days of unleavened bread, so the passover has already finished.
    So it can only mean one thing,
    that the Romans celebrated easter (Oestre) according to their tradition (goddess worship)
    And this word Easter was not mistranslated, for we know the roots of this pagan celebration existed before Christ.
    The evidence comes from the bible itself, do you agree?

    And if the word should be pascha meaning passover, then why would he wait until after pascha when pascha has already finished?

    #308998
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    From Barnes:
    Intending after Easter – There never was a more absurd or unhappy translation than this. The original is simply after the Passover (μετὰ τὸ πάσχα meta to pascha. The word “Easter” now denotes the festival observed by many Christian churches in honor of the resurrection of the Saviour. But the original has no reference to that, nor is there the slightest evidence that any such festival was observed at the time when this book was written. The translation is not only unhappy, as it does not convey at all the meaning of the original, but because it may contribute to foster an opinion that such a festival was observed in the time of the apostles. The word “Easter” is of Saxon origin, and is supposed to be derived from “Eostre,” the goddess of Love, or the Venus of the North, in honor of whom a festival was celebrated by our pagan ancestors in the month of April (Webster). Since this festival coincided with the Passover of the Jews, and with the feast observed by Christians in honor of the resurrection of Christ, the name came to be used to denote the latter. In the old Anglo-Saxon service-books the term “Easter” is used frequently to translate the word “Passover.” In the translation by Wycliffe, the word “paske,” that is, “Passover,” is used. But Tyndale and Coverdale used the word “Easter,” and hence, it has very improperly crept into our King James Version.

    From Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary:
    intending after Easter-rather, “after the Passover”; that is, after the whole festival was over. (The word in our King James Version is an ecclesiastical term of later date, and ought not to have been employed here).

    The term “passover” could refer to the entire, week-long passover celebration.  It did not always refer only to the first night of the Passover Festival.

    journey, the KJV translators made a mistake in this case. The mistake has been subseqently rectified by the NKJV, and virtually every English translation that followed the KJV.

    Now that you know the KJV is not “infallible”, are you ready to put aside tradition in favor of truth?

    #309031
    Ed J
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 13 2012,02:17)

    Quote (jammin @ Aug. 11 2012,20:23)
    paul did not say form of nature.


    I agree.

    Paul said “form of God“, right?  And what did Paul mean by “God”?  Did he mean a species of beings?  Or did he mean an individual being?


    Hi Mike,

    How many times has Jammin 'ignored' this question now?

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

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