John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 901 through 920 (of 25,995 total)
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  • #101447

    Quote (t8 @ Aug. 15 2008,12:46)
    Taken from Wikipedia.

    After giving as a translation of John 1:1c “and divine (of the category divinity) was the Word,” Haenchen goes on to state: “In this instance, the verb 'was' ([en]) simply expresses predication. And the predicate noun must accordingly be more carefully observed: [the·os′] is not the same thing as [ho the·os′] ('divine' is not the same thing as 'God').” Other scholars, such as Philip B. Harner elaborate on the grammatical construction found here (Journal of Biblical Literature, 1973, pp. 85, 87). Apart from Jehovah's Witnesses and some others, the understanding of the language of the original makes the “Word” emphatically “God,” as the absence of the definite article makes the “Word” God by nature; ie, not 'a' god, but the Word was God.

    Some scholars have suggested that John made creative use of double meaning in the word “Logos” to communicate to both Jews, who were familiar with the Wisdom tradition in Judaism, and Hellenic polytheism, especially followers of Philo (Hellenistic Judaism).[citation needed] Each of these two groups had its own history associated with the concept of the Logos, and each could understand John's use of the term from one or both of those contexts.

    Emphasis is mine.


    t8

    Quote (t8 @ Aug. 15 2008,12:46)

    Apart from Jehovah's Witnesses and some others, the understanding of the language of the original makes the “Word” emphatically “God,” as the absence of the definite article makes the “Word” God by nature; ie, not 'a' god, but the Word was God.

    If the “Word was God by nature” then how could he be less than God?

    ???

    #101448
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 15 2008,12:45)
    t8

    You didnt answer the question?

    We are not talking about the OT. We are talking about the NT.

    Give me one example where the word “theos” is ascribed to any other being with the definite article besides the arch enemy of God!

    WJ


    2 Corinthians 4:4
    The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

    http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/NTpdf/2co4.pdf

    #101449

    Quote (t8 @ Aug. 15 2008,12:56)

    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 15 2008,12:45)
    t8

    You didnt answer the question?

    We are not talking about the OT. We are talking about the NT.

    Give me one example where the word “theos” is ascribed to any other being with the definite article besides the arch enemy of God!

    WJ


    2 Corinthians 4:4
    The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

    http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/NTpdf/2co4.pdf


    t8

    Are you comparing Yeshua with satan?

    Give me one example where the word “theos” is ascribed to any other being with the definite article besides the arch enemy of God!

    Yeshua is not an opposite.

    Theos=true. Theos=false. Where is a true Theos with the article besides Yeshua found in the mouths of the NT saints?

    ???

    #101450
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 15 2008,12:56)
    If the “Word was God by nature” then how could he be less than God?


    OK, maybe we are making some progress now.

    If Adam was adam/man in nature how could he be less than Man?

    Well there is only one Adam (well actually 2 if you count the second Adam) and there are billions of adams.

    So Jesus is not God (the person) but in nature or quality he is theos.

    Likewise the Devil is Satan, and devil can be any number of beings that possess Satan's nature or qualities. That apparently included Judas.

    In other words, what I have said from the beginning, i.e., that Trinitarians cannot distinguish between identity and quality in this context.

    #101451
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 15 2008,13:01)
    Are you comparing Yeshua with satan?


    No of course not. I am showing you some language construction. It has nothing to do with likening God and Satan, except to say that they are 2 different beings who are both called theos and The theos too.

    But one is the God of this age, and the other is the God of all, over all, and through all. That God is the Father.

    #101453
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 15 2008,13:01)
    Give me one example where the word “theos” is ascribed to any other being with the definite article besides the arch enemy of God!

    Yeshua is not an opposite.


    I don't have to because theos as applied to judges or elohim as applied to angels is an authority/quality/thing given by the true God. But Satan is a theos and a father. He is the theos of this age and the father of lies. So he really is a God or the God of something. i.e., these things do not originate in YHWH.

    Not many are a God of something or the source of something. Usually it is either of YHWH or Satan. Although Yeshua to some degree can be an exception because he is our head and authority. So he can be our God relatively speaking, but not the God of the Father. Just as a landlord can have authority over a person who is renting, yet the Lord Jesus can have authority over the landlord.

    As it stands, the Father is the God of our Lord Jesus Christ. God made him both lord and Christ. The Father is the true God and the Most High God. And Jesus is not the God of the Father. In fact the word Father is used for a reason.

    #101454
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 15 2008,12:52)

    Quote (t8 @ Aug. 15 2008,12:46)
    Taken from Wikipedia.

    After giving as a translation of John 1:1c “and divine (of the category divinity) was the Word,” Haenchen goes on to state: “In this instance, the verb 'was' ([en]) simply expresses predication. And the predicate noun must accordingly be more carefully observed: [the·os′] is not the same thing as [ho the·os′] ('divine' is not the same thing as 'God').” Other scholars, such as Philip B. Harner elaborate on the grammatical construction found here (Journal of Biblical Literature, 1973, pp. 85, 87). Apart from Jehovah's Witnesses and some others, the understanding of the language of the original makes the “Word” emphatically “God,” as the absence of the definite article makes the “Word” God by nature; ie, not 'a' god, but the Word was God.

    Some scholars have suggested that John made creative use of double meaning in the word “Logos” to communicate to both Jews, who were familiar with the Wisdom tradition in Judaism, and Hellenic polytheism, especially followers of Philo (Hellenistic Judaism).[citation needed] Each of these two groups had its own history associated with the concept of the Logos, and each could understand John's use of the term from one or both of those contexts.

    Emphasis is mine.


    t8

    Wikopedia?

    :D

    If John meant divine or quality he could have used a different word in John 1:1c, but instead used the same word  “theos” as in John 1:1b.

    :)


    WJ, pride only blinds a man.

    If you look closely at the Wikipedia article, it quotes two scholars, while also providing the sources which show that they claim to not have originated in Wikipedia. My point is that both do not say that the Logos is God the person but rather is talking in qualitative terms.

    But notice how you judged by the appearance without considering what was inside? You saw Wikipedia and just discredited it immediately. I wonder if that is what I am up against with you? Is it that you see non-Trinitarian and judge immediately by forming a bias against me?

    But surely you should judge by the words not by the label. Otherwise how will you ever find truth. Jesus was said to be from a cult. Would that have been enough for you to write Jesus off, or would you have been a bit more fair than that and not stumbled on the label?

    #101455
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 15 2008,12:56)
    If the “Word was God by nature” then how could he be less than God?


    If we partake in divine nature, then how can we be less than God?

    Hmmm.

    Still cannot grasp the difference between identity and nature can you?

    One is an actual person and the other is the quality or nature of the person. So there is Adam and there are adams. Same word, differing uses or non-use of the definite article.

    Ask your question in this way:

    If the “Adam is adam by nature” then how could he be less than Adam?

    The answer is staring you in the face.

    #101461
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    LU… you maintain that 2 Pet 1:1 say's Jesus is our savior and God, Do yopu also think that 2 PET 1:2 is also referencing Jesus as GOD also, and if not why?

    The word (Word) is not a noun it is a descriptor and describes what was and it was with the ONLY TRUE GOD. Because just like your word describe who and what you are so does GOD's WORD describes who and what HE is. Do you think John was not smart enough to have simply said Jesus if thats what He meant to say. John was simply describing what was in the (BEGINNING) of everything and It was GOD the FATHER, Not Jesus. You and others are (not) reading the text simple as it is written you are constructing the text and forcing it to meet your ideologies of trinitarian or Preexsistences stance. All Greek words were in capital letters so there is no way any one could have made the Word appear as a Noun without changing the text. When we say the Word of God we are using the word as a descriptor of GOD, no a separate person as you and other presume it to be. IMO

    peace to you………..gene

    #101462
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 15 2008,12:47)
    So now you misrepresent my words.

    I said there is no “credible translation”. And all of the translations disagree with you on biblegateway.com and blueletterbible.org.


    It seems to me that you are saying that translators, and the majority doctrines of Christendom are beyond question and we should just accept what they have done as right.

    But I think it is better to challenge all things and because I do that, you just disagree and go with the status quo by default without actually seeing if it is indeed so. If I didn't challenge and test all things I would be just another accepting Trinitarian who tithes to a denomination and making little impact in the true battle between the kingdom of light and the kingdom of darkness.

    Luther challenged the accepted precepts of Christianity in his day and the reward was the bringing back of certain truths to the body. If you lived back then, would you just blindly follow the status quo and think Luther was a nutter for challenging the authority of the RCC? It is easy to say no in hindsight, but I really wonder if you would be any different given the way you act with anyone who differs from the accepted of this day.

    Do you not think that accepted so-called creeds or foundational truths can actually be a product of man? Do you think we are now in perfect knowledge?

    I have to disagree with your accepting stance. Satan is THE God of this age that you and me find ourselves in.

    Do not underestimate our enemy. He is a lot older than both of us put together.

    For me, I will trust in scripture (not necessarily the translation) before I will trust in the status quo.

    The majority are actually wrong the majority of the time. History demonstrates this aptly and the narrow path is after all populated by less people than the wider path that leads to destruction.

    Men change their science and beliefs as time progresses.

    But you seem to feel a certain security by following the majority. But the world is under the sway of the evil one and following the majority will not ultimately protect anyone. Following the majority in the time of Jesus would have led you to reject Jesus.

    In the end we will all face the creator and give an account. Saying things like “well most people had this view” is not really going to cut it, because we all have the ability and responsibility to test all things.

    If our heart is true, then truth will not be hidden from us. But if we put our trust in man, we will be let down. That I can promise you.

    #101466
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    To Gene.

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 15 2008,14:07)
    The word (Word) is not a noun it is a descriptor and describes what was and  it was with the ONLY TRUE GOD.


    Actually, the Logos is associated with the definite article. Your argument ignores this.

    THE Logos.
    THE God.

    If you think God is a person/identity, then that is because it is associated with the definite article. (In the beginning was THE God). The Logos is also associated with the definite article in like manner.

    Check it out for yourself. I challenge you to find out what the connotations of using the definite article are. Start with talking to someone who's native tongue is Greek and then find out if it also applies to ancient Greek too.

    #101554

    Quote (t8 @ Aug. 15 2008,16:01)

    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 15 2008,11:07)
    Hi David

    Ha Ha!

    Have you ever heard me deny Yeshua as the Son of the Father?

    To say that because Yeshua is the Son of God, he cannot also be God in nature, is like saying that because you are a son of your father means you are not human.


    By saying that he is God, you are subtly saying that he is not the son of God because he is either God or God's son.

    Although I agree that you may not understand this because if you did, it could then be said that you may be deceiving people into believing that he was God at the expense of him being the son of God. I don't think that you are knowingly part of a conspiracy, but if people actually followed what you taught, then you would be responsible for them denying in essence that he is the son by reason of saying that he was God.

    Quite strange how a belief in one thing in principle denies belief in another thing. Saying that you believe both isn't really honest nor reasonable because the first belief overrides the second one.

    The end result is confusion and division.

    Quote (t8 @ Aug. 15 2008,16:01)

    By saying that he is God, you are subtly saying that he is not the son of God because he is either God or God's son.

    Hi t8

    I merely quote scripture which says he is God. But when you read those scriptures you want to play word games.

    You read them as he is “a god” or “divine” when the neither Greek construction nor biblical monotheism allows for this.

    So then, about eating food sacrificed to idols: We know that an idol is nothing at all in the world and that “there is no God but one”.

    1Cr 8:5   For even if there are so‑called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”), 1 Cor 8:4, 5

    Do you see the “there is no God but one”.

    and

    “For even if there are so‑called gods, whether in heaven or on earth”

    Yet you teach there are other “theos” putting Yeshua in the same catogory as satan. Notice Paul says there is only one “theos” and that all other “theos” whether in heaven or in earth are so-called theos.

    You want us to believe that Yeshua is a god relatively speaking. Wait, here is how you put it earlier in this thread…

    Quote (t8 @ Aug. 15 2008,13:13)

    “So he can be our God relatively speaking…”


    Surely you don’t think Paul was meaning Yeshua is a so-called theos relatively speaking do you?

    For Paul calls Yeshua God.

    Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; Titus 2:13

    With the definite article Paul declares that the appearing of Yeshua our great God and Saviour is our blessed hope.

    The NET reads like this…

    :13 as we wait for the happy fulfillment of our hope in the glorious appearing19 of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ.20

    The NET was translated by 25 scholars with access to over 60,000 translator’s notes, and this is what they say about Titus 2:13…

    20tn The terms “God and Savior” both refer to the same person, Jesus Christ. This is one of the clearest statements in the NT concerning the deity of Christ. The construction in Greek is known as the Granville Sharp rule, named after the English philanthropist-linguist who first clearly articulated the rule in 1798. Sharp pointed out that in the construction article-noun-καί-noun (where καί [kai] = “and”), when two nouns are singular, personal, and common (i.e., not proper names), they always had the same referent. Illustrations such as “the friend and brother,” “the God and Father,” etc. abound in the NT to prove Sharp’s point. The only issue is whether terms such as “God” and “Savior” could be considered common nouns as opposed to proper names. Sharp and others who followed (such as T. F. Middleton in his masterful The Doctrine of the Greek Article) demonstrated that a proper name in Greek was one that could not be pluralized. Since both “God” (θεός, qeos) and “savior” (σωτήρ, swthr) were occasionally found in the plural, they did not constitute proper names, and hence, do fit Sharp’s rule. Although there have been 200 years of attempts to dislodge Sharp’s rule, all attempts have been futile. Sharp’s rule stands vindicated after all the dust has settled. For more information on Sharp’s rule see ExSyn 270-78, esp. 276. See also 2 Pet 1:1 and Jude 1:4.
    Click here for the source.

    Yet you have closed your eyes to this scripture as well as John 1:1 and others by reducing them to mean…

    Quote (t8 @ Aug. 15 2008,13:13)

    “So he can be our God relatively speaking…”


    Is he our Great God and Saviour as the scriptures say, or should we believe you when you say…

    Quote (t8 @ Aug. 15 2008,13:13)

    “So he can be our God relatively speaking…”


    Should we believe you when you say that there is bias with the translators and the majority is wrong?

    Should we treat the inspired scriptures as you do when you said earlier…

    Quote
    For me, I will trust in scripture (not necessarily the translation) before I will trust in the status quo.


    What do you mean you trust the scriptures but not necessarily the translations? Do you read Greek or Hebrew or Aramaic? How is it that you can pick and choose the translation as it fits you and then accuse others like myself for being blind and of the whore when there are clearly scriptures supporting my belief? How hypocritical and how elitist is that? Only pride would cause a man to think that he alone has the truth, when there are scriptures that contradict him and Greek scholars who know far more than he does.

    Simon Peter also disagrees with you and calls Yeshua God.

    Simon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who through the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ have received a faith as precious as ours: 1 Peter 1:1

    This scripture is with the definite article and unambiguously claims the Deity of Christ.

    Again the NET reads…

    From Simeon1 Peter,2 a slave3 and apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who through the righteousness of our God4 and Savior,5 Jesus Christ, have been granted6 a faith just as precious7 as ours.

    Again the scholars who know far more than you and I about Greek construction comment on this verse.

    The terms “God and Savior” both refer to the same person, Jesus Christ. This is one of the clearest statements in the NT concerning the deity of Christ. The construction in Greek is known as the Granville Sharp rule, named after the English philanthropist-linguist who first clearly articulated the rule in 1798. Sharp pointed out that in the construction article-noun-καί-noun (where καί [kai] = “and”), when two nouns are singular, personal, and common (i.e., not proper names), they always had the same referent. Illustrations such as “the friend and brother,” “the God and Father,” etc. abound in the NT to prove Sharp’s point. In fact, the construction occurs elsewhere in 2 Peter, strongly suggesting that the author’s idiom was the same as the rest of the NT authors’ (cf., e.g., 1:11 [“the Lord and Savior”], 2:20 [“the Lord and Savior”]). The only issue is whether terms such as “God” and “Savior” could be considered common nouns as opposed to proper names. Sharp and others who followed (such as T. F. Middleton in his masterful The Doctrine of the Greek Article) demonstrated that a proper name in Greek was one that could not be pluralized. Since both “God” (θεός, qeos) and “savior” (σωτήρ, swthr) were occasionally found in the plural, they did not constitute proper names, and hence, do fit Sharp’s rule. Although there have been 200 years of attempts to dislodge Sharp’s rule, all attempts have been futile. Sharp’s rule stands vindicated after all the dust has settled. For more information on the application of Sharp’s rule to 2 Pet 1:1, see ExSyn 272, 276-77, 290. See also Titus 2:13 and Jude 4.

    But you want us to believe you because you say they have bias.

    Tell me t8 how it is unscriptural for me to call Yeshua my Lord and my God. Tell me how it is unscriptural for me to call Yeshua my Great God and blessed hope.

    You should be careful how you accuse one of being blind and of the harlot for it may be that you are yielding to the so-called god of this world, the accuser of the brethren and thereby sticking your finger in the apple of God’s eye.

    You are teaching men to be at odds with their brothers by isolating them as being of the whore and not of the church the body of Christ.

    I think it is a serious thing to accuse someone of being of the whore because they disagree with you, especially when they believe in Yeshua and the scriptures and have bliblical proof for their belief. Some day you will give account for your teachings also, and don't think that you can escape his judgment if you lead one of his little ones to make Yeshua less in nature than who he is.

    Yeshua is the visible “image of God” and to see him as less than God is to have a false image of God and therefore commit Idolatry.

    The same honour given to the Father is to be given to the son, and this is not to make Yeshua into a small god or diminish him to just being a member of some “theos” club like ungodly men or satan.

    For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Isa 9:6

    In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. John 1:1

    No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only, who is at the Father's side, has made him known. John 1:18

    And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God. John 20:28

    Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, Phil 2:6

    But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. Heb 1:8

    Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; Titus 2:13

    Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ: 2 Peter 1:1

    And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life. 1 John 5:20

    So tell me t8, which of these scriptures accuse me of being in error by calling Yeshua my Lord and Great God?

    Of course you would say that he is not “the” God, yet most of these have the definite article.

    Why do you not call Yeshua your Lord and God t8?

    ???

    #101556
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 16 2008,00:28)
    I merely quote scripture which says he is God. But when you read those scriptures you want to play word games.

    You read them as he is “a god” or “divine” when the neither Greek construction nor biblical monotheism allows for this.

    So then, about eating food sacrificed to idols: We know that an idol is nothing at all in the world and that “there is no God but one”.

    1Cr 8:5   For even if there are so‑called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”), 1 Cor 8:4, 5

    Do you see the “there is no God but one”.

    and

    “For even if there are so‑called gods, whether in heaven or on earth”


    You cannot see because prejudice has blinded your insight.

    There is one 'THE Theos' who is over all and through all.

    There are many who have the title and attribute theos.

    Likewise there is one THE Adam and there are many who have the attributes of THE Adam who are called adam.

    Sorry if this offends you, but it is all there in the scriptures. It is you who needs to change, not scripture.

    You are arguing against scripture with your philosophy. You are not actually arguing with me for the words I have spoken to you are in the scriptures. You can read them for yourself and the scriptures that I speak of have been given to you many times over.

    #101557
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 16 2008,00:28)
    So tell me t8, which of these scriptures accuse me of being in error by calling Yeshua my Lord and Great God?


    Actually there is nothing wrong in that statement. But if you say that Yeshua is YHWH and that Yeshua is the Most High God, which you have done in the past, then you are teaching falsely.

    #101558
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 16 2008,00:28)
    Why do you not call Yeshua your Lord and God t8?


    Yeshua is my lord and he is my theos and he is my head and he is my saviour. If angels can be elohim and judges who were given authority by God are called theos, then all the more Jesus who is in nature theos.

    But Yeshua is not YHWH, and he is not the Most High Theos. Yeshua said that his Father was his God and our God.

    I believe Yeshua and I do not believe you.

    If you do not believe Yeshua's own words, then calling him God isn't going to give you some points to counter your unbelief in his words.

    John 6:29
    Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”

    How can you believe in the one whom God has sent if you do not agree with Yeshua's own words?

    #101560
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 16 2008,00:28)
    You are teaching men to be at odds with their brothers by isolating them as being of the whore and not of the church the body of Christ.


    I am teaching men that the influence of Babylon is alive and well and has made many drunk. When you teach Trinity, I see Babylon's influence.

    #101561
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 16 2008,00:28)
    Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; Titus 2:13


    WJ. Whether you read that verse as

  • great theos, and saviour Jesus Christ.
    or

  • great theos and saviour, Jesus Christ.

    Jesus is neither YHWH or the Most High God because the Most High God is Jesus Father. That is a truth that you really do not want to contest because you will then be opposing the Father who alone is the Most High God.

    John 17:3
    Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

    If you chose to oppose God and the words of his son, as well as scripture, then you are free to do so, but I certainly am not encouraging you to do that WJ. It is your doing.

#101562

Quote (t8 @ Aug. 16 2008,01:13)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 16 2008,00:28)
Why do you not call Yeshua your Lord and God t8?


Yeshua is my lord and he is my theos and he is my head and he is my saviour. If angels can be elohim and judges who were given authority by God are called theos, then all the more Jesus who is in nature theos.

But Yeshua is not YHWH, and he is not the Most High Theos. Yeshua said that his Father was his God and our God.

I believe Yeshua and I do not believe you.

If you do not believe Yeshua's own words, then calling him God isn't going to give you some points to counter your unbelief in his words.

John 6:29
Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”

How can you believe in the one whom God has sent if you do not agree with Yeshua's own words?


t8

Yes of course.

You have a big “theos” and a little “theos” which is true Henotheism and Polytheism because according to Paul there is “no other theos” and all other “theos” whether in heaven or earth are “so-called” theos, and obviously Paul is not speaking of Yeshua.

Read it for yourself 1 Cor 8:4, 5

You also believe that the Big theos created all things through a little theos when scriptures clearly teach that “God alone” created all things. You also have more than one saviour when scriptures clearly teach there is only “one saviour”.

How do you answer these Biblical contradictions?

???

#101563

Quote (t8 @ Aug. 16 2008,01:31)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 16 2008,00:28)
Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; Titus 2:13


WJ. Whether you read that verse as

  • great theos, and saviour Jesus Christ.
    or

  • great theos and saviour, Jesus Christ.

    Jesus is neither YHWH or the Most High God because the Most High God is Jesus Father. That is a truth that you really do not want to contest because you will then be opposing the Father who alone is the Most High God.

    John 17:3
    Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

    If you chose to oppose God and the words of his son, as well as scripture, then you are free to do so, but I certainly am not encouraging you to do that WJ. It is your doing.


  • t8

    By the way, you still havent given me an example in the NT where the Apostles called any other being their God with the definite article.

    Since you believe that there are many god's it would seem you could gives us at least one example.

    :)

    Quote (t8 @ Aug. 16 2008,01:31)

    John 17:3
    Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

    Interesting that Yeshua named himself right beside the Father as a prerequisite to having eternal life, by knowing him and the Father, wouldnt you say?

    This same John who recorded this also recorded John 1:1 and John 1:18 and John 20:28 and 1 John 5:20.

    Compare…

    And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us insight to know58 him who is true, and we are in him who is true, in his Son Jesus Christ. This one59 is the true God and eternal lifep. 1 John 5:20

    Again, in opposition to you the scholars who know far more than you say…

    The pronoun This one (οὗτος, Joutos) refers to a person, but it is far from clear whether it should be understood as a reference (1) to God the Father or (2) to Jesus Christ. R. E. Brown (Epistles of John [AB], 625) comments, “I John, which began with an example of stunning grammatical obscurity in the prologue, continues to the end to offer us examples of unclear grammar.” The nearest previous antecedent is Jesus Christ, immediately preceding, but on some occasions when this has been true the pronoun still refers to God (see 1 John 2:3). The first predicate which follows This one in 5:20, the true God, is a description of God the Father used by Jesus in John 17:3, and was used in the preceding clause of the present verse to refer to God the Father (him who is true). Yet the second predicate of This one in 5:20, eternal life, appears to refer to Jesus, because although the Father possesses “life” (John 5:26, 6:57) just as Jesus does (John 1:4, 6:57, 1 John 5:11), “life” is never predicated of the Father elsewhere, while it is predicated of Jesus in John 11:25 and 14:6 (a self-predication by Jesus). If This one in 5:20 is understood as referring to Jesus, it forms an inclusion with the prologue, which introduced the reader to “the eternal life which was with the Father and was manifested to us.” Thus it appears best to understand the pronoun This one in 5:20 as a reference to Jesus Christ. The christological affirmation which results is striking, but certainly not beyond the capabilities of the author (see John 1:1 and 20:28): This One [Jesus Christ] is the true God and eternal life.

    Source.

    Yet again you would have us believe you and appose the clear teachings of the scritpures while claiming even the experts are biased and blind and of the whore.

    WJ

    #101564

    Quote (t8 @ Aug. 16 2008,01:31)

    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 16 2008,00:28)
    Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; Titus 2:13


    WJ. Whether you read that verse as

  • great theos, and saviour Jesus Christ.
    or

  • great theos and saviour, Jesus Christ.

    Jesus is neither YHWH or the Most High God because the Most High God is Jesus Father. That is a truth that you really do not want to contest because you will then be opposing the Father who alone is the Most High God.

    John 17:3
    Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

    If you chose to oppose God and the words of his son, as well as scripture, then you are free to do so, but I certainly am not encouraging you to do that WJ. It is your doing.


  • t8

    Again, you in pride appose the scriptures when clearly the Greek construction and the grandville sharp rule does not allow for your interpretation here.

    Paul clearly is stating Yeshua is his Great God and Saviour and he is not a Polytheist.

    WJ

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