John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 881 through 900 (of 25,995 total)
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  • #101422
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 15 2008,01:44)
    WJ,
    Holy cow!  My brain hurts and may never recover.  You put a lot of time and effort into that post so even though I do not completely agree with you I do appreciate all your thought and time.  I hope that I am not intruding here by addressing your post since you specifically asked for t8's response.  I would like to say a few things about it though.


    WJ just did a copy and paste from a post made by Isaiah.

    Somewhere in here I think:
    https://heavennet.net/cgi-bin….;t=1375

    #101424
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    OK, here is a copy and paste from something I wrote in that debate. It might help to clarify what I said earlier.

    =========

    Please read the 2 examples below and guess which one is correct:

    1)
    a) In the beginning was the woman,
    b) and the woman was with the man
    c) and the woman was the man

    2)
    a) In the beginning was the woman,
    b) and the woman was with the man
    c) and the woman was man

    The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind, or that the woman is a man in the sense that God made man, male and female, as it is written. (See what a difference the definite article and the lack of can make in the last sentence?)

    Genesis 1:27
    So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

    In other words the word 'man' is used as an attribute or to describe one's nature. It is not used in an identity sense like the other instances of the words 'woman' and 'man' in the above correct example.

    But in Isaiah's (a member of this forum) way of thinking regarding 'God' and the 'Word', he chooses number 1, so he sees it like:

    a) In the beginning was the Word    / similarly – In the beginning was the woman,      
    b) the Word was with (the) God     /  similarly – the woman was with the man        
    c) and the Word was God (himself) /   similarly – and the woman was the man

    NOTE: Adam is the name of the first man, but is also the word used for 'man' in general. So it is both a name and a nature. The definite article is used to differentiate Man/man from being used in an identifying role and a qualifying role.

    #101427

    Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 15 2008,01:51)
    BTW, in regards to the above post, the Greek word written as “hn” in John 1:1 is transliterated as “en” and is translated as “was”.  I know that might be confusing.


    Hi LU

    Thanks for the compliiment. But it should be given to Isa 1:18, a Trinitarian who visits here accasionally.

    He is very versed in Greek and the scriptures.

    You were reading a post from the debate he had with t8 in the debates thread.

    I posted the article with a link to the source.

    Blessings. WJ

    #101428
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 15 2008,02:37)
    T8…..Your assuming the (Word) as a Noun when in fact it is a descriptor or an attribute of the one GOD.  And your references to the upper and lower cases is also wrong seeing that (ALL) original Greek is written in capital letters.


    My use of uppercase was only to highlight those words. That was all. It had nothing to do with your conclusion and I am fully aware of the situation regarding case in scripture.

    In English we might say 'Adam' meaning the person and adam (which is man) as a quality or nature. Same word but different usage.

    So in Greek Adam is defined like 'the adam' and 'adam' (lowercase) just doesn't have the definite article.

    So uppercase in English is like using the definite article in Greek and lowercase is not using it.

    This is admittedly a very simple way to look at it and doesn't take into consideration any exceptions.

    #101430

    Quote (t8 @ Aug. 15 2008,10:59)
    I do not agree gol.

    I gave you sound reasoning and backed it up with another instance when Jesus said “one of you is devil” (no article).

    is devil
    is theos

    No article, then not a person, but a quality. You can argue against it all you like, but it is the way Greek works. It is said by some however that the last theos in John 1:1 is lacking the article because the way the sentence is constructed forces it to be so, but even in that case, you still cannot rule out the qualitative use of theos. Go ask an expert in Greek about the definite article and the lack of the definite article. I have. It is not a contoversy but an excepted rule in Greek that you use an article when referring to a person.

    Scholars recognise what the article means in Greek, and even some Trinitarian scholars admit this is the case with John 1:1, including some bible translators too.

    If you argue that the Word being God is talking about God the person, then you should be consistent and at least argue equally that Jesus said of Judas that he was The Devil/Satan. You can't chop and change things to suit your view.

    Also as I said before, the article is used with the Logos, so this rules out the interpretation of reading the Logos as an attribute or quality of God.

    Hi t8

    Quote (t8 @ Aug. 15 2008,10:59)

    Scholars recognise what the article means in Greek, and even some Trinitarian scholars admit this is the case with John 1:1, including some bible translators too.

    If this is true, then why did the 100s of scholars translate John 1:1 on Biblegateway.com and Blueletterbible.org as you say?

    They all translate it “The Word was God” or “God was the Word”

    They could have translated it “the Word was divine” or “the Word was a god” if what you say is true.

    But they didnt did they?

    Also your argument about the definite article is a red herring because there are many places in the scriptures the definite article is not used in referring to the Father.

    The Lack of a Greek Definite Article

       Another common confusion in John 1:1 comes from the fact that in Greek there is no definite article in front of the word ‘God’ (‘theos’) in the phrase ‘and the Word was God’.  The confusion arises from an assumption that if there is no definite article in the Greek, then it must have an indefinite meaning and thus should be translated with the indefinite article “a”.  Based on this understanding, some argue that this phrase in John 1:1 should be translated “the word was a god,” rather than “the word was God.”  It is important at this point to understand that the Greek language has a definite article (‘the’), but does not have an indefinite article (‘a’ or ‘an’).  In certain instances, when the Greek omits a definite article, it may be appropriate to insert an indefinite article for the sake of the English translation and understanding.  But we cannot assume that this is always appropriate.  Greek does not operate in the same way as English does in regard to the use of the words ‘the’ and ‘a’.  In many instances in which English would not include the word ‘the’, the Greek text includes it.  (We don’t see it in the English translations because it would sound non-sensible in our language.)  (See Note 1, below.)  And in many cases where the Greek omits the definite article, the English translation requires it to convey the correct meaning of the Greek. (See Note 2, below.)  Therefore it cannot be assumed that if the definite article is absent, then an indefinite article should be inserted.  (For a clear illustration of this, see an example of the use of the word ‘God’ and the definite article in John chapter one.)  Furthermore, even though the Greek language does not have an ‘indefinite article’ like we think of in English, there is a way in Greek for the writer to indicate the indefinite idea and thus avoid confusion.  This is done in Greek by using the Greek indefinite pronoun ‘tis’.
       In John 1:1 there is no definite article in front of the word ‘God’ in the phrase, ‘and the Word was God’.  However, in this instance, it cannot just be assumed that the word ‘God’ is meant to be ‘indefinite’, and therefore an indefinite article used in the English translation.  Because the first use of the word ‘God’ in John 1:1 (‘the Word was with God’) clearly refers to the Only True God, the Eternal Pre-existent Creator, more than likely John would have used a different Greek construction than he did if he had meant for this next phrase (‘and the Word was God’) to refer to a ‘lesser’ god, and did not want us to confuse this with the True God he had just mentioned.  If John meant to avoid confusion, when making such a definitive statement, he could have done so by using this ‘indefinite pronoun’ (‘tis’) as an adjective. This would have made it clear that the Word was ‘a certain god’, but not the one he was just referring to.  For examples of this, see the verses Mark 14:51, Luke 8:27, Luke 1:5, and Luke 11:1 (among many, many other examples).  So, it seems that by the Greek grammatical structure in this statement, John is indicating that the Word (Jesus Christ – John 1:14) is the same essence and nature as God the Father.
       (For a more thorough explanation of the function and use of the Greek article (and meaning of its absence), see ‘Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics’, by Daniel Wallace.  He includes fifty pages – entitled ‘The Article, Part I’ – which is a more complete treatment of the subject that many grammar books present and explains all the general uses of the article.  He actually has a ‘Part II’ which discusses some special issues with the article.  Fifteen pages of this second section apply directly to understanding this passage in John 1:1.  It is highly recommended for those who really desire an honest and thorough understanding of this passage.)

    Source.

    Besides t8 the following scriptures refer to Yeshua as God with the definite article.

    And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God. John 20:28

    Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; Titus 2:13

    Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ: 2 Peter 1:1

    And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life. 1 John 5:20

    WJ

    #101431
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 15 2008,12:09)
    If this is true, then why did the 100s of scholars translate John 1:1 on Biblegateway.com and Blueletterbible.org as you say?


    Because they assume that Jesus is God and Jesus is the Word.

    So if they think there are 2 ways of looking at it, which one will they choose?

    #101432
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 15 2008,12:09)
    Another common confusion in John 1:1 comes from the fact that in Greek there is no definite article in front of the word ‘God’ (‘theos’) in the phrase ‘and the Word was God’. The confusion arises from an assumption that if there is no definite article in the Greek, then it must have an indefinite meaning and thus should be translated with the indefinite article “a”.


    I am neither putting in THE or A.

    I am leaving it the way it is.

    JWs put in the A and Trinitarians put in THE.

    I argue that both are not there.

    #101433
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 15 2008,12:09)
    They all translate it “The Word was God” or “God was the Word”

    They could have translated it “the Word was divine” or “the Word was a god” if what you say is true.


    “In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
    An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

    “The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
    by Dr. James Moffatt

    As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue's “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
    -Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

    As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue's “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
    -Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

    Of course the majority of people are blinded by the Trinity doctrine and that is why you have other biases such as 1 John 5:7 and other things.

    Translators are not above bias.

    #101434

    Quote (t8 @ Aug. 15 2008,12:17)

    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 15 2008,12:09)
    Another common confusion in John 1:1 comes from the fact that in Greek there is no definite article in front of the word ‘God’ (‘theos’) in the phrase ‘and the Word was God’.  The confusion arises from an assumption that if there is no definite article in the Greek, then it must have an indefinite meaning and thus should be translated with the indefinite article “a”.


    I am neither putting in THE or A.

    I am leaving it the way it is.

    JWs put in the A and Trinitarians put in THE.

    I argue that both are not there.


    t8

    Yes but your conclusion is the Word was divine and not “theos”.

    You disagree with the translators and basically all the translations.

    Do you have any Greek or Hebrew skills?

    :)

    #101436
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 15 2008,12:09)
    And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God. John 20:28


    It's obvious. Jesus is not an attribute but a person.

    But this still doesn't make Jesus the Almighty God.

    Satan is a god and he is a person. He is THE God of this world.

    You need to look at more than one thing here.

    90% of people who are run over by trains are run over when they wait for a train to pass, then cross while unaware that a second train is coming the other way.

    #101437

    Quote (t8 @ Aug. 15 2008,12:27)

    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 15 2008,12:09)
    They all translate it “The Word was God” or “God was the Word”

    They could have translated it “the Word was divine” or “the Word was a god” if what you say is true.


    “In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
    An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

    “The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
    by Dr. James Moffatt

    As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue's “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
    -Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

    As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue's “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
    -Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

    Of course the majority of people are blinded by the Trinity doctrine and that is why you have other biases such as 1 John 5:7 and other things.

    Translators are not above bias.


    t8

    Quote (t8 @ Aug. 15 2008,12:27)

    Translators are not above bias.

    But of course you are, and the 100s of scholars that translated the scriptures in the many credible translations were all disingenuous.

    Should we believe you over what is written?

    I think not!

    WJ

    #101438
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 15 2008,12:27)
    t8

    Yes but your conclusion is the Word was divine and not “theos”.

    You disagree with the translators and basically all the translations.

    Do you have any Greek or Hebrew skills?


    I see it the way it is written. THE Word was theos.

    I don't disagree with translators but Trinitarians.

    It would be fair to say that most Christians and translators subscribe to the Trinity.

    I am aware that Babylon has made the whole world drunk on her wine. Translators are not above being influenced by babylon.

    #101439

    Quote (t8 @ Aug. 15 2008,12:31)

    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 15 2008,12:09)
    And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God. John 20:28


    It's obvious. Jesus is not an attribute but a person.

    But this still doesn't make Jesus the Almighty God.

    Satan is a god and he is a person. He is THE God of this world.

    You need to look at more than one thing here.

    90% of people who are run over by trains are run over when they wait for a train to pass, then cross while unaware that a second train is coming the other way.


    t8

    Can you give me an example where any of the Apostles used the term logos with the definite article in refering to any other being besides the arch enemy of God?

    ???

    #101440

    Quote (t8 @ Aug. 15 2008,12:33)

    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 15 2008,12:27)
    t8

    Yes but your conclusion is the Word was divine and not “theos”.

    You disagree with the translators and basically all the translations.

    Do you have any Greek or Hebrew skills?


    I see it the way it is written. THE Word was theos.

    I don't disagree with translators but Trinitarians.

    It would be fair to say that most Christians and translators subscribe to the Trinity.

    I am aware that Babylon has made the whole world drunk on her wine. Translators are not above being influenced by babylon.


    t8

    But you just quoted this…

    Quote
    “In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
    An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

    “The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
    by Dr. James Moffatt

    I think you are the one drunk with the wine of your own pride in denying the translations and the Greek and Hebrew scholars who disagree with you, when you have no credentials at all for interpreting Greek or Hebrew.

    Should we follow you and your adulterous interpretation of the word?

    WJ

    #101441
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 15 2008,12:35)

    Quote (t8 @ Aug. 15 2008,12:31)

    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 15 2008,12:09)
    And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God. John 20:28


    It's obvious. Jesus is not an attribute but a person.

    But this still doesn't make Jesus the Almighty God.

    Satan is a god and he is a person. He is THE God of this world.

    You need to look at more than one thing here.

    90% of people who are run over by trains are run over when they wait for a train to pass, then cross while unaware that a second train is coming the other way.


    t8

    Can you give me an example where any of the Apostles used the term logos with the definite article in refering to any other being besides the arch enemy of God?

    ???


    Logos cannot be compared to the title God.

    Satan is called theos, so were judges, angels were called elohim. As far as I know, Logos isn't applied to them.

    The term Logos also reflects the term dabar Yahweh” (“Word of God”) in the Old Testament. So look up where that is mentioned and you can answer your own question.

    #101442
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 15 2008,12:40)
    t8

    But you just quoted this…

    Quote
    “In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
    An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

    “The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
    by Dr. James Moffatt

    I think you are the one drunk with the wine of your own pride in denying the translations and the Greek and Hebrew scholars who disagree with you, when you have no credentials at all for interpreting Greek or Hebrew.

    Should we follow you and your adulterous interpretation of the word?

    WJ


    What are you going on about.

    You said there are no bibles translated with the view that a quality is being referred as I mention, and I give you some examples of bibles and also scholars.

    :O

    #101443

    Quote (t8 @ Aug. 15 2008,12:42)

    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 15 2008,12:35)

    Quote (t8 @ Aug. 15 2008,12:31)

    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 15 2008,12:09)
    And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God. John 20:28


    It's obvious. Jesus is not an attribute but a person.

    But this still doesn't make Jesus the Almighty God.

    Satan is a god and he is a person. He is THE God of this world.

    You need to look at more than one thing here.

    90% of people who are run over by trains are run over when they wait for a train to pass, then cross while unaware that a second train is coming the other way.


    t8

    Can you give me an example where any of the Apostles used the term logos with the definite article in refering to any other being besides the arch enemy of God?

    ???


    Logos cannot be compared to the title God.

    Satan is called theos, so were judges, angels were called elohim. As far as I know, Logos isn't applied to them.

    The term Logos also reflects the term dabar Yahweh” (“Word of God”) in the Old Testament. So look up where that is mentioned and you can answer your own question.


    t8

    You didnt answer the question?

    We are not talking about the OT. We are talking about the NT.

    Give me one example where the word “theos” is ascribed to any other being with the definite article besides the arch enemy of God!

    WJ

    #101444
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Taken from Wikipedia.

    After giving as a translation of John 1:1c “and divine (of the category divinity) was the Word,” Haenchen goes on to state: “In this instance, the verb 'was' ([en]) simply expresses predication. And the predicate noun must accordingly be more carefully observed: [the·os′] is not the same thing as [ho the·os′] ('divine' is not the same thing as 'God').” Other scholars, such as Philip B. Harner elaborate on the grammatical construction found here (Journal of Biblical Literature, 1973, pp. 85, 87). Apart from Jehovah's Witnesses and some others, the understanding of the language of the original makes the “Word” emphatically “God,” as the absence of the definite article makes the “Word” God by nature; ie, not 'a' god, but the Word was God.

    Some scholars have suggested that John made creative use of double meaning in the word “Logos” to communicate to both Jews, who were familiar with the Wisdom tradition in Judaism, and Hellenic polytheism, especially followers of Philo (Hellenistic Judaism).[citation needed] Each of these two groups had its own history associated with the concept of the Logos, and each could understand John's use of the term from one or both of those contexts.

    Emphasis is mine.

    #101445

    Quote (t8 @ Aug. 15 2008,12:44)

    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 15 2008,12:40)
    t8

    But you just quoted this…

    Quote
    “In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
    An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

    “The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
    by Dr. James Moffatt

    I think you are the one drunk with the wine of your own pride in denying the translations and the Greek and Hebrew scholars who disagree with you, when you have no credentials at all for interpreting Greek or Hebrew.

    Should we follow you and your adulterous interpretation of the word?

    WJ


    What are you going on about.

    You said there are no bibles translated with the view that a quality is being referred as I mention, and I give you some examples of bibles and also scholars.

    :O


    t8
    So now you misrepresent my words.

    I said there is no “credible translation”. And all of the translations disagree with you on biblegateway.com and blueletterbible.org.

    #101446

    Quote (t8 @ Aug. 15 2008,12:46)
    Taken from Wikipedia.

    After giving as a translation of John 1:1c “and divine (of the category divinity) was the Word,” Haenchen goes on to state: “In this instance, the verb 'was' ([en]) simply expresses predication. And the predicate noun must accordingly be more carefully observed: [the·os′] is not the same thing as [ho the·os′] ('divine' is not the same thing as 'God').” Other scholars, such as Philip B. Harner elaborate on the grammatical construction found here (Journal of Biblical Literature, 1973, pp. 85, 87). Apart from Jehovah's Witnesses and some others, the understanding of the language of the original makes the “Word” emphatically “God,” as the absence of the definite article makes the “Word” God by nature; ie, not 'a' god, but the Word was God.

    Some scholars have suggested that John made creative use of double meaning in the word “Logos” to communicate to both Jews, who were familiar with the Wisdom tradition in Judaism, and Hellenic polytheism, especially followers of Philo (Hellenistic Judaism).[citation needed] Each of these two groups had its own history associated with the concept of the Logos, and each could understand John's use of the term from one or both of those contexts.

    Emphasis is mine.


    t8

    Wikopedia?

    :D

    If John meant divine or quality he could have used a different word in John 1:1c, but instead used the same word “theos” as in John 1:1b.

    :)

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