John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 9,141 through 9,160 (of 26,009 total)
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  • #308049
    Ed J
    Participant

    Quote (limjunus @ Aug. 04 2012,16:37)

    Quote (Ed J @ Aug. 04 2012,11:13)
    Thomas believed because of the works  –  the works  –  being God resurrecting Jesus.


    You are in the right track, Ed J.


    Hi limjunus,

    Why do the others have trouble seeing this?

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

    #308050
    Ed J
    Participant

    Hi limjunus,

    Thomas said Jesus is (according to Jammin) God.
    Thomas said Jesus is (according to Mike) a god.

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

    #308057
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Aug. 02 2012,00:20)
    The verse that changed one Jewish “rabbi’s” life.

    -Concerning Yesh’yahu 9:6 , the verse that caused one orthodox Jew, rabbi Isidor Zwirn, to become a believer in Yeshua. Isidor, in order to be accepted into the Yeshivah Rabbenu Yaacov Yoseph in New York city had to begin learning how to read the Hebrew prayers of the Siddur by age 3 and comprehend them by age 6. Then upon being accepted into the Yeshiva, the Torah became his text book that they studied daily every school day.

    Every verse of Torah was required to be studied and discussed among classmates, and the meaning of each individual letter of each Hebrew word also had to be understood, and sometimes the meaning of a whole passage would hinge on the meaning of one single letter of one single word in the passage. He was completely and utterly fluent in Hebrew. He was also trained in the 3 rules of haMidrash of  “respect for others views”, of  “the thorough investigation of everybody else’s views in addition to your own”, and of  “if two opposing views cannot be resolved, then they must be temporarily be set aside, until another view is provided that resolves the conflict and/or harmonizes the two positions”.

    This man ultimately became a chief Rabbi, and the head of the Zionists studies program (His Zionist studies are what led Him to Yeshua), at an Orthodox synagogue in Burbank California where he was forcefully removed from behind the bema by police after he declared His belief in Yeshua as the long awaited Messiah of Israel.

    This is Isidor’s literal translation of Yesh’yahu 9:6, the translation of which caused Him to believe that Yeshua had to be the Messiah. This is what he wrote concerning the words “Pele yoez el gibbor avi ad sar shalom”, he says “I read those last 8 Hebrew words, letter by letter, then translated them into English. ‘And they shall call his name a wonderful Counselor to the Almighty God and Everlasting Father, (also) Prince of Peace’.” Then he says, “This could be no other than the Messiah! Because certainly no finite being could counsel the Almighty God”.

    So, Isidor, with his expertise in Hebrew and very in depth methodological study habits when studying Yesh’yahu 9:6 concluded from a purely unbiased linguistical perspective that Yeshua was a counselor to Yahuweh – a counselor to the Almighty God. In other words, as Yahuweh’s “right hand man”, and is the verse that forever changed his life. This is on page 56 of his book “A rabbi’s Search for Messiah”. So does this mean that Yeshua is not God? If it means He is not God, can Yeshua still be Elohim? Is there a difference in these two words?
    [PDF] SOURCE

    Did Yahshua Create Or Pre-exist His Birth?

    “Jesus IS God!”?


    Frank,

    That post is a good length though I hold that Yashua councils men and not God.

    #308059
    limjunus
    Participant

    Quote (jammin @ Aug. 04 2012,12:01)
    (limjunus @ Aug. 01 2012,23:57)
    Thomas, did not address his saying to Jesus, but instead Thomas, is indirectly uttering that words as “MY LORD AND MY GOD! (OMG!) with his extremely sudden emotion………..
    ——————————————————

    can you give me a translation that thomas said in john 20.28 OH MY GOD?

    ill wait boy
    you may ask for help


    Jammin, The (OMG!) is just the equal words of “MY LORD AND MY GOD! exclaimed by Thomas.

    I have explained it very will, the real issue in what Thomas to be believing is?. Thomas has been corrected by Jesus, that he must believed that the resurrection idea is real and not the issue of, if Jesus is Lord and God?

    Just read it back.

    #308061
    limjunus
    Participant

    Quote (Ed J @ Aug. 04 2012,17:10)

    Quote (limjunus @ Aug. 04 2012,16:37)

    Quote (Ed J @ Aug. 04 2012,11:13)
    Thomas believed because of the works  –  the works  –  being God resurrecting Jesus.


    You are in the right track, Ed J.


    Hi limjunus,

    Why do the others have trouble seeing this?

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org


    The answer is:

    [/B]1 Cor. 8:7 LB

    “However, some Christians don't realize this. [that for us there is only one God, the Father]

    What do you mean “some christian don't realize that the Father is the one and only God?

    [[COLOR=red]Marcos 4:11 TEV
    11″You have been given the secret of the Kingdom of God,” Jesus answered. “But the others, who are on the outside, hear all things by means of parables,[B]

    Those people (call themselves christian) but still outside the perimeter of Christ's kingdom, really do not know the secrets of the kingdom of God. Not able to see the shining truth. Meaning they still in the hands of the prince of the darkness.

    #308065
    jammin
    Participant

    Quote (limjunus @ Aug. 04 2012,18:58)

    Quote (jammin @ Aug. 04 2012,12:01)
    (limjunus @ Aug. 01 2012,23:57)
    Thomas, did not address his saying to Jesus, but instead Thomas, is indirectly uttering that words as “MY LORD AND MY GOD! (OMG!) with his extremely sudden emotion………..
    ——————————————————

    can you give me a translation that thomas said in john 20.28 OH MY GOD?

    ill wait boy
    you may ask for help


    Jammin, The (OMG!) is just the equal words of “MY LORD AND MY GOD! exclaimed by Thomas.

    I have explained it very will, the real issue in what Thomas to be believing is?. Thomas has been corrected by Jesus, that he must believed that the resurrection idea is real and not the issue of, if Jesus is Lord and God?

    Just read it back.


    i do not need your opinion.

    give me a translation that thomas said OH MY GOD in john 20.28

    can you give one or not?

    #308066
    jammin
    Participant

    Quote (journey42 @ Aug. 04 2012,16:05)

    Quote (limjunus @ Aug. 04 2012,15:53)

    Quote (Ed J @ Aug. 04 2012,04:24)

    Quote (jammin @ Aug. 03 2012,19:42)
    limjunus,

    john 17.3 is correct but your interpretation is wrong
    i do not have a problem with that. i believe that Christ is the son of God. i also believe that Christ is God. the apostles said that.

    John 20:28

    New International Version (NIV)

    28 Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!”

    John 20:28

    GOD’S WORD Translation (GW)

    28 Thomas responded to Jesus, “My Lord and my God!”

    you just pick what you want but you do not believe  what the whole bible says.

    i believe that there is only one father who is truly God. john 17.3

    the bible also says that the son is truly God.
    1  john 5.20
    john 1.1

    Barnes' Notes on the Bible

    My Lord and my God – In this passage the name God is expressly given to Christ, in his own presence and by one of his own apostles. This declaration has been considered as a clear proof of the divinity of Christ, for the following reasons:

    1. There is no evidence that this was a mere expression, as some have supposed, of surprise or astonishment.

    2. The language was addressed to Jesus himself – “Thomas …said unto him.”

    3. The Saviour did not reprove him or check him as using any improper language. If he had not been divine, it is impossible to reconcile it with his honesty that he did not rebuke the disciple. No pious man would have allowed such language to be addressed to him. Compare Acts 14:13-15; Revelation 22:8-9.

    4. The Saviour proceeds immediately to commend Thomas for believing; but what was the evidence of his believing? It was this declaration, and this only. If this was a mere exclamation of surprise, what proof was it that Thomas believed? Before this he doubted. Now he believed, and gave utterance to his belief, that Jesus was his Lord and his God.

    5. If this was not the meaning of Thomas, then his exclamation was a mere act of profaneness, and the Saviour would not have commended him for taking the name of the Lord his God in vain. The passage proves, therefore, that it is proper to apply to Christ the name Lord and God, and thus accords with what John affirmed in John 1:1, and which is established throughout this gospel.

    sorry boy but you need to study hard. your words are non sense


    spin


    1. There is no evidence that this was a mere expression, as some have supposed, of surprise or astonishment. [There is evidence, read verse John 20:26-29 NLT]

    2. The language was addressed to Jesus himself – “Thomas …said unto him.” [addressed to Jesus as a respond and not clarifying us that his believe is Jesus his Lord and His God. Thomas is in the state of very strong shocked and big regret and shouting the OMG!]  

    3. The Saviour did not reprove him or check him as using any improper language. If he had not been divine, it is impossible to reconcile it with his honesty that he did not rebuke the disciple. No pious man would have allowed such language to be addressed to him. Compare Acts 14:13-15; Revelation 22:8-9. [There is a rebuttal done by Jesus. Do not be unbeliever but be a believer of the resurrection. The context or the issue is not who Jesus is, but the is Jesus was raised from the dead (resurrection doctrine).]

    4. The Saviour proceeds immediately to commend Thomas for believing; but what was the evidence of his believing? It was this declaration, and this only. If this was a mere exclamation of surprise, what proof was it that Thomas believed? Before this he doubted. Now he believed, and gave utterance to his belief, that Jesus was his Lord and his God.

    5. If this was not the meaning of Thomas, then his exclamation was a mere act of profaneness, and the Saviour would not have commended him for taking the name of the Lord his God in vain. The passage proves, therefore, that it is proper to apply to Christ the name Lord and God, and thus accords with what John affirmed in John 1:1, and which is established throughout this gospel. [Thomas uttering the name of the Lord and God in a very big regret for being unbeliever; there Thomas didn't use the name of his God in vain]

    Be careful Jammin. Next time be sure that you are old enough to understand the real context of the Bible you have believing.

    Peace.  :D  ???


    Jammin

    Are you a christian?
    Because if you have hatred and spite inside your heart, then
    it will manifest sooner or later for all to see and be used as a witness against you,
    and knowledge won't be revealed to you.
    If the Spirit of God is truly inside you, then it should be growing in wisdom and love,
    if not, then double check that spirit inside you,
    cause it doesn't sound right from here what comes out of your mouth, and what you say only makes sense to you and no-one else,
    Not to late to repent, even if others don't agree with you,
    you should love and agree to disagree without falling into a hole to prove your point.
    Believe what you wish but don't sin.


    there is nothing wrong in my post.
    limjunus is a false teacher and it is very obvious.

    how about you? do you believe that Christ is not God?
    if you believe that, you are part of the group of false teachers.

    according to paul

    gal 1.8
    Galatians 1:8

    Good News Translation (GNT)
    8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel that is different from the one we preached to you, may he be condemned to hell!

    #308067
    jammin
    Participant

    Quote (limjunus @ Aug. 04 2012,15:20)

    Quote (jammin @ Aug. 03 2012,19:49)

    Quote (jammin @ Aug. 03 2012,10:07)


    ἀπεκρίθη Θωμᾶς καὶ εἶπεν αὐτῷ ὁ κύριος μου καὶ ὁ θεός μου.

    the greek bible also says that thomas said these words to jesus!

    in english,
    and thomas answered and said unto him…

    kurios mous kai ho theos mou! MY LORD AND MY GOD!

    but this false teacher said a different story.

    let me post what limjunus said

    (limjunus @ Aug. 01 2012,23:57)
    Thomas, did not address his saying to Jesus, but instead Thomas, is indirectly uttering that words as “MY LORD AND MY GOD! (OMG!) with his extremely sudden emotion…………..

    tsk tsk tsk.. you are really a false teacher boy


    :)  Jammin is trying very hard to prove his stand that Jesus Christ is truly God.  Using and capitalizing the John 20:28 from  his favorite version (NIRV) and avoiding to use the version of New Living Translation.

    “27 Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here, and look at my hands. Put your hand into the wound in my side. Don’t be faithless any longer. Believe!”

    28 “My Lord and my God!” Thomas exclaimed.

    And the God words translation (GW)

    27 Then Jesus said to Thomas, “Put your finger here, and look at my hands. Take your hand, and put it into my side. Stop doubting, and believe.”

    28 Thomas responded to Jesus, “My Lord and my God!”

    And the CEB translation.

    27 Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here. Look at my hands. Put your hand into my side. No more disbelief. Believe!”

    28 Thomas responded to Jesus, “My Lord and my God!”

    Jammin avoiding to use the above versions because he could not really prove that Jesus Christ is the Lord and God, in using the Thomas respond to the said event with exclamation remark!!! and Jammin is trying very hard to hide the real facts and issue with confrontation between Jesus and Thomas.

    I am not the false teacher,.. you are, Mr. Barnes and your wrongful interpretation of the action of Thomas with the event.

    Sorry Jammin. You are relying not with the Bible true context but only with your own “ego” and misrepresentation.

    Peace>  :D


    im not avoiding boy the NLT.

    actually, if you post most of the translation of john 20.28 it says that Christ is LORD and God.

    no matter what version you post, Christ is thomas' LORD and GOD

    ill give you many versions boy

    New International Version (©1984)
    Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!”

    New Living Translation (©2007)
    “My Lord and my God!” Thomas exclaimed.

    English Standard Version (©2001)
    Thomas answered him, “My Lord and my God!”

    New American Standard Bible (©1995)
    Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!”

    King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
    And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

    International Standard Version (©2008)
    Thomas answered him, “My Lord and my God!”

    Aramaic Bible in Plain English (©2010)
    And Thomas answered and said to him, “My Lord, and my God.”

    GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
    Thomas responded to Jesus, “My Lord and my God!”

    King James 2000 Bible (©2003)
    And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

    American King James Version
    And Thomas answered and said to him, My LORD and my God.

    American Standard Version
    Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

    Douay-Rheims Bible
    Thomas answered, and said to him: My Lord, and my God.

    Darby Bible Translation
    Thomas answered and said to him, My Lord and my God.

    English Revised Version
    Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

    Webster's Bible Translation
    And Thomas answered and said to him, My Lord and my God.

    Weymouth New Testament
    “My Lord and my God!” replied Thomas.

    World English Bible
    Thomas answered him, “My Lord and my God!”

    Young's Literal Translation
    And Thomas answered and said to him, 'My Lord and my God;'

    ———
    see ? no versions that say OH MY GOD! LOL

    but you can make your own boy to support your illusion!
    LOL

    #308077
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    To All:

    jammin and Barnes are right on this one – up to a point.  There is no indication from the words of the scripture itself that Thomas was expressing “OMG!”.

    In fact, the scripture clearly states that Thomas said ALL of his words TO JESUS, indicating that Thomas was calling Jesus “my Lord and my God”.

    Nor is there any indication that any human visibly “saw” God dwelling within the flesh body of Jesus.

    But jammin and Barnes go off track when they start assuming that, by calling Jesus “god”, Thomas thought Jesus was THE God who created the heavens and the earth.

    I want you all to consider this scripture:
    2 Samuel 11:11
    Uriah said to David, “The ark and Israel and Judah are staying in temporary shelters, and my lord Joab and the servants of my lord are camping in the open field.

    Does the fact that Uriah calls Joab “my lord” indicate that he thinks Joab is the Lord who created the heavens and the earth?

    Of course not.

    I pray that you people will eventually come to grips with the Biblical use of the words “lord” and “god”.  The word “god” in Biblical times referred to many who were thought to be “mighty”, and who were to “be revered”.

    Men were called “gods”.  Angels were called “gods”.  Demons were called “gods”.

    The word could refer to ANYONE who was revered and mighty.  In fact, Uriah could have just as well called Joab his “god” as his “lord” in that statement.  It would STILL not mean that Uriah thought Joab was the God who created the heavens and the earth.  It would only indicate that, from Uriah's point of view, Joab was mighty and to be revered.

    Here is more proof:
    Genesis 23:6 NASB ©
    “Hear us, my lord, you are a mighty prince among us; bury your dead in the choicest of our graves; none of us will refuse you his grave for burying your dead.”

    The Hebrew actually says the Hittites called Abraham a “god-prince” – not a “mighty prince”.

    Here is another:
    Exodus 21:6
    then his master must take him before the judges.

    The Hebrew word here is “gods”, but HUMAN judges are obviously meant by the context.

    So yes, Thomas called JESUS “my Lord and my God”, (just as Jesus is called a god in Isaiah 9:6, John 1:1, and John 1:18)…….but Thomas clearly didn't think that Jesus was THE God who created the heavens and the earth.  Thomas, as a disciple of Jesus, surely understood that Jesus was the SON OF that One.

    For more on this topic, visit the many gods thread I started.

    peace,
    mike

    #308079
    journey42
    Participant

    Quote (jammin @ Aug. 04 2012,23:56)
    there is nothing wrong in my post.
    limjunus is a false teacher and it is very obvious.

    how about you? do you believe that Christ is not God?
    if you believe that, you are part of the group of false teachers.

    according to paul

    gal 1.8
    Galatians 1:8

    Good News Translation (GNT)
    8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel that is different from the one we preached to you, may he be condemned to hell!


    Your posts are confusing.
    I believe what the scriptures say; that Jesus is the SON of God.
    To say anything otherwise is to go against scripture.

    John 1:34 And I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God.

    John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

    John 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

    John 11:27 She saith unto him, Yea, Lord: I believe that thou art the Christ, the Son of God, which should come into the world.

    John 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

    Acts 8:37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

    #308082
    Frank4YAHWEH
    Participant

    Did Thomas Call Jesus “My God” in John 20.28?
    by Servetus the Evangelical
    When the risen Jesus appeared to his gathered disciples on the first Easter evening,
    the Apostle Thomas was not present (John 20.19-24). The disciples later told him they
    had seen Jesus. Thomas said he would not believe unless he saw Jesus for himself (v. 25).
    One week later the risen Jesus appeared again to his gathered disciples, with Thomas
    present. Jesus spoke to him, and Thomas replied, “My Lord and my God” (John 20.28).
    Most Christians have believed that Thomas then called Jesus “God.” And most New
    Testament (NT) scholars claim it is the strongest biblical evidence that Jesus is God.
    On the contrary, no other NT character calls Jesus “God,” which would depart from
    Jewish monotheism. Plus, John records two occasions when Jesus’ antagonists accused
    him of making himself out to be God, which he then denied (John 5.18-47; 10.30-37).
    Thus, Christians have exceedingly misunderstood Thomas’ words “my God.” Their
    interpretation of them ignores this gospel’s context, which unlocks their meaning.
    First, John records that the risen Jesus appeared to Mary Magdalene a week prior to
    the Thomas incident. He told her, “go to My brethren, and say to them, ‘I ascend to My
    Father and your Father, and My God and your God’” (John 20.17). So, the risen Jesus
    called the Father “My God.” The question arises: How can Jesus be God if he has a God?
    Indeed, John would not have meant that Thomas called Jesus “my God” when this author
    had just recorded that Jesus called the Father “My God.”
    Then, one verse after Thomas’ words John concludes his gospel by writing, “Many
    other signs therefore Jesus also performed … but these have been written that you may
    believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God” (John 20.30-31). This statement would
    be anti-climactic following Thomas’ words if he indeed called Jesus “God.” And calling
    Jesus “the Son of God” is not synonymous with “God.”
    Moreover, John records a conversation that Jesus had with the apostles Thomas and
    Philip at the Last Supper, only ten days prior to Thomas’ Confession. Jesus told them he
    would soon go to “My Father’s house” (John 14.2), referring to his heavenly ascension to
    soon follow his death and resurrection. Then John adds,
    4 “And you know the way where I am going.” 5 Thomas said to Him, “Lord, we do not know where
    You are going, how do we know the way?” 6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the
    life; no one comes to the Father but through Me. 7 If you had known Me, you would have known My
    Father also; from now on you know Him, and have seen Him.” 8 Philip said to Him, “Lord, show us
    the Father, and it is enough for us.” 9 Jesus said to him, “Have I been so long with you, and yet you
    have not come to know Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; how can you say, ‘Show
    us the Father’? 10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father is in Me? The words that
    I say to you I do not speak on my own initiative; but the Father abiding in Me does his works. 11
    Believe Me that I am in the Father, and the Father is in Me.”
    Jesus’ words, “the Father is in Me,” must have left a strong impression on Thomas.
    Indeed, they are the key to correctly understand what doubting Thomas later meant when
    he said to Jesus, “my God.” That is, Thomas acknowledged what Jesus had taught ten
    days prior, that God the Father is in Jesus.
    Jesus had taught the same thing many days earlier. He had said, “I and the Father are
    one” (John 10.30). His Jewish opponents misunderstood him and were about to stone
    him. They accused him of “blasphemy,” saying, “You, being a man, make Yourself out to
    be God” (v. 33). Jesus implicitly denied this and explained the oneness as “the Father is
    in Me, and I in the Father” (v. 38). Scholars call this the Mutual Indwelling.
    Some ill-taught Christians get confused about Jesus’ words in John 14.9—“He who
    has seen Me has seen the Father.” They think he therein claimed to be the Father. In the
    3rd century, the Church rightly deemed this belief, called Sabellianism, as heretical. Jesus
    and NT writers often distinguished the Father and Jesus as two separate individuals.
    The Johannine Jesus taught similarly on other occasions. Once when he attended a
    feast at Jerusalem, “Jesus cried out and said, ‘He who believes in Me does not believe in
    Me, but in Him who sent Me. And he who beholds Me beholds the One who sent Me’”
    (John 12.44-45). Again, Jesus was talking about God the Father. In fact, the Father
    sending the Son is the most prominent theme in the Gospel of John, occurring 40 times.
    This indwelling of God in Christ, and God sending Christ, reflects the concept of
    agency. In antiquity, especially in the business world and among Jews, a principal would
    select someone to represent him as his agent. It was common knowledge that a man’s son
    usually proved to be the best candidate as his agent. So, with the son as agent, dealing
    with a man’s son was akin to dealing with the man himself, as if the father was in his son.
    The Johannine Jesus taught this concept of agency in various ways. He often said the
    Father had given him his words and deeds (John 12.49; 14.10, 24; 17.8). And he said of
    the Father, “My teaching is not Mine, but His who sent Me. If anyone is willing to do His
    will, he will know of the teaching, whether it is of God or whether I speak from Myself”
    (7.16-17). Notice he distinguishes himself from God. Another time he said, “I have come
    in My Father’s name,” and he then called the Father “the one and only God” (5.43-44).
    To rightly understand Jesus in the Gospel of John, Agent Christology can hardly be
    over-emphasized. It is the corrective to misinterpreting several Johannine texts in which
    Jesus is wrongly identified as God, claiming to be God, or God becoming a man.
    Moreover, in this gospel Agent Christology, also called Sending Christology, is the
    primary focus of saving faith for believers (John 16.27-30; 17.8). As God’s supreme
    agent, the Johannine Jesus functioned as God without actually being God.
    In my book, The Restitution of Jesus Christ (2008), I devote 17 pages to Thomas’
    words “my God” in John 20.28 and cite 38 scholars in doing so. In using John 14.9, 11 as
    key to understanding Thomas, I regard this as the pinnacle of my research in this book. It
    is a God-in-Christ interpretation as opposed to the traditional Christ-is-God interpretation.
    [PDF] SOURCE

    #308084
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Aug. 04 2012,11:51)
    Jesus’ words, “the Father is in Me,” must have left a strong impression on Thomas.
    Indeed, they are the key to correctly understand what doubting Thomas later meant when
    he said to Jesus, “my God.” That is, Thomas acknowledged what Jesus had taught ten
    days prior, that God the Father is in Jesus.


    Frank,

    The part I quoted is the ONLY part of your huge cut and paste that actually addresses the point in question.

    All those words boil down to one little thing:  Your author has INTERPRETED those words to mean Thomas was talking to both Jesus AND “the Father in him”.

    Unfortunately, one cannot honestly come to that interpretation from the words Thomas said, or the surrounding context John wrote.

    As for the rest of the post, it is good scriptural information proving that Jesus is not God Almighty – but bears no light on the words Thomas spoke.

    #308096
    Ed J
    Participant

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Aug. 05 2012,04:51)
    Jesus’ words, “the Father is in Me,” must have left a strong impression on Thomas.
    Indeed, they are the key to correctly understand what doubting Thomas later meant when
    he said to Jesus, “my God.” That is, Thomas acknowledged what Jesus had taught ten
    days prior, that God the Father is in Jesus.

    [PDF] SOURCE


    Hi Frank,

    Good article.

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

    #308097
    Ed J
    Participant

    HA Ha, I see we both copied the same part of his article.

    #308119
    jammin
    Participant

    Quote (journey42 @ Aug. 05 2012,04:35)

    Quote (jammin @ Aug. 04 2012,23:56)
    there is nothing wrong in my post.
    limjunus is a false teacher and it is very obvious.

    how about you? do you believe that Christ is not God?
    if you believe that, you are part of the group of false teachers.

    according to paul

    gal 1.8
    Galatians 1:8

    Good News Translation (GNT)
    8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel that is different from the one we preached to you, may he be condemned to hell!


    Your posts are confusing.
    I believe what the scriptures say; that Jesus is the SON of God.
    To say anything otherwise is to go against scripture.

    John 1:34   And I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God.

    John 3:18   He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

    John 5:25   Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

    John 11:27   She saith unto him, Yea, Lord: I believe that thou art the Christ, the Son of God, which should come into the world.

    John 20:31   But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

    Acts 8:37   And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.


    journey

    i believe that Christ is the Son of God.
    but your belief is not the whole truth.
    the bible also says that Christ is God.

    john 20.28
    thomas said to jesus, MY LORD AND MY GOD!

    that is a very clear words from the apostle

    #308120
    jammin
    Participant

    mike,

    do not compare your gods to Christ.

    Christ came from heaven. he is the ONLY SON OF GOD!

    he was with God from the beginning. john 1.1

    your gods are not really God by nature. they are created. they are not the ONLY SON OF GOD

    the bible says that the son and the father are equal
    phil 2.6
    they have the same nature. the Son or the WORD in john 1.1 was GOD

    the son is truly GOD!

    how many times do i need to tell you that by exmple, you are truly HUMAN just like your father bec you have the same nature.
    you are both HUMAN or MAN by nature.

    and as man, you are limited. you are created and not all powerful. bec you are MAN and that is your nature as MAN.

    that is why im askin you what is the nature of God. until now you are not answering this question
    i told you to ask some help

    #308126
    Ed J
    Participant

    Hi Jammin,

    Do you believe “Christ” has a father?

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

    #308128
    jammin
    Participant

    of course. just like you boy. you have a father and you are both TRULY HUMAN.
    unless you do not want to accept this truth that u are truly HUMAN. are you an animaL?

    #308135
    Ed J
    Participant

    Quote (jammin @ Aug. 05 2012,13:48)

    Quote (Ed J @ Aug. 05 2012,13:33)
    Hi Jammin,

    Do you believe “Christ” has a father?

    God bless
    Ed J


    of course.


    Hi Jammin: Who's “The Father of Spirits” mentioned in Hebrews 12:9?

    “Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us,
    and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in sub-
    jection unto  the Father of spirits,  and live?” (Heb. 12:9)

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

    #308138
    jammin
    Participant

    do you compare yourself to Christ? LOL

    are you the ONE AND ONLY SON OF GOD?LOL

    are you not TRULY HUMAN just like your father| LOL

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