John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 8,401 through 8,420 (of 26,009 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #304568
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 30 2012,04:41)

    Quote (kerwin @ June 29 2012,00:39)
    Mike,

    Quote
    Does scripture tell us when or why Jesus started being called the Word of God?  If it does, that is news to me.

    Anyway, your response was irrelevant to my question.  I only want to know if God meant Jesus when he spoke of putting His word in His people's inward parts in Jer 31:33.  Do you think God was talking about Jesus in that scripture?

    I know that Jehovah did write the Word upon Jesus' heart and place it into his heart for Isaiah 42:1 teaches us that.  John 1:14 speaks of a time when the Word was made flesh and John the Baptist recognized the Word in Jesus when Jesus came to him to be immersed.


    Kerwin,

    Why not just directly answer the question I asked?  ???

    Did God mean “Jesus” when he spoke of putting His word in His people's inward parts in Jer 31:33?  Do you think God was talking about Jesus in that scripture?  YES or NO?


    Mike;

    What I have answered is sufficient for understanding as it reveals Jehovah wrote his Word on heart and placed it in his inward parts.

    #304569
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ June 30 2012,20:04)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 30 2012,04:41)

    Quote (kerwin @ June 29 2012,00:39)
    Mike,

    Quote
    Does scripture tell us when or why Jesus started being called the Word of God?  If it does, that is news to me.

    Anyway, your response was irrelevant to my question.  I only want to know if God meant Jesus when he spoke of putting His word in His people's inward parts in Jer 31:33.  Do you think God was talking about Jesus in that scripture?

    I know that Jehovah did write the Word upon Jesus' heart and place it into his heart for Isaiah 42:1 teaches us that.  John 1:14 speaks of a time when the Word was made flesh and John the Baptist recognized the Word in Jesus when Jesus came to him to be immersed.


    Kerwin,

    Why not just directly answer the question I asked?  ???

    Did God mean “Jesus” when he spoke of putting His word in His people's inward parts in Jer 31:33?  Do you think God was talking about Jesus in that scripture?  YES or NO?


    Mike;

    What I have answered is sufficient for understanding as it reveals Jehovah wrote his Word on heart and placed it in his inward parts.


    K

    let be honest God did not write his words into the hearts of people ,unless the people start to read his words (scriptures)

    but we can not obtain his words if we do not look for ,and can not understand it if we do not knock,the written words of God is written in THE LOVE WE HAVE FOR HIM ,( THEIR IS NO PAPER AND PEN IN OUR HEARTS :D )

    #304570
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (kerwin @ June 29 2012,20:04)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 30 2012,04:41)

    Quote (kerwin @ June 29 2012,00:39)
    Mike,

    Quote
    Does scripture tell us when or why Jesus started being called the Word of God?  If it does, that is news to me.

    Anyway, your response was irrelevant to my question.  I only want to know if God meant Jesus when he spoke of putting His word in His people's inward parts in Jer 31:33.  Do you think God was talking about Jesus in that scripture?

    I know that Jehovah did write the Word upon Jesus' heart and place it into his heart for Isaiah 42:1 teaches us that.  John 1:14 speaks of a time when the Word was made flesh and John the Baptist recognized the Word in Jesus when Jesus came to him to be immersed.


    Kerwin,

    Why not just directly answer the question I asked?  ???

    Did God mean “Jesus” when he spoke of putting His word in His people's inward parts in Jer 31:33?  Do you think God was talking about Jesus in that scripture?  YES or NO?


    Mike;

    What I have answered is sufficient for understanding as it reveals Jehovah wrote his Word on heart and placed it in his inward parts.


    NO, it is NOT “sufficient”, Kerwin.

    I want to know if God intended to say He would put JESUS in His people's inward parts. Did he mean JESUS in Jer 31:33? YES or NO?

    #304571
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Marty,

    Did you overlook my post at the bottom of page 119?

    #304580
    terraricca
    Participant

    Marty

    Quote
    And he is before all of God's creation in the sense that God created every thing that he created by him and for him. God's plan before the world began was to reconcile the world unto Himself through His Only Begotten Son and His Christ.

    I did not see this ; God's plan before the world began” so what you saying is that before God start to create he already made arrangements to send his son ,not created yet ,no universe ,no angels ect , Satan did not yet existed and ad not yet rebel,or men not sin,??? ,

    is this your message to me ??? yes or no or what

    #304586
    kerwin
    Participant

    Marty;

    Do you believe that Jesus is called the Second Adam in the Writings? If so; where is he so called; and why is he called that?

    Was Adam sired of either or woman? Is God both his mother and father?

    Was Eve sired of a woman? Is God her mother and Adam her father?

    Do you believe God sires children in the same way his creations do? If not then how does he sire children?

    #304587
    kerwin
    Participant

    Mike;

    Quote
    NO, it is NOT “sufficient”, Kerwin.

    I want to know if God intended to say He would put JESUS in His people's inward parts.  Did he mean JESUS in Jer 31:33?  YES or NO?

    Your words make it seem that you are wrapped in the letter of Scripture but fail to follow the Spirit of Scripture.  To follow the spirit you must seek understanding of it with your heart and ask for it with your mouth; just as Jesus teaches us.

    In going by the spirit of what is written, it is irrelevant if Jeremiah's words include Jesus; though I hold they do.  What is important is whether or not Jehovah placed his Word into the inner parts of the flesh that is Jesus and wrote his Word on the heart of that same flesh.  I hold that in putting his Spirit on Jesus that he did place the Word in him since it is the Spirit that reveals the Word.

    The letter teaches us that Jehovah declared “Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah” and Jesus is a member of the house of Judah; therefore Jesus is included.  That is why Jesus is the Author and Finisher of the New Covenant.

    #304622
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (kerwin @ June 30 2012,01:58)
    Your words make it seem that you are wrapped in the letter of Scripture but fail to follow the Spirit of Scripture.


    Kerwin,

    It seems there are only two choices:

    1.  Each and every time “the word of God” is mentioned in the scriptures, it refers to Jesus.

    2.  More than one thing is referred to by the phrase “the word of God”.

    Do you think that every time “the word of God” is mentioned in scripture, it is in reference to the person who rides the white horse in Rev 19:13?  YES or NO?

    #304640
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ July 01 2012,01:30)
    Marty;

    Do you believe that Jesus is called the Second Adam in the Writings?  If so; where is he so called; and why is he called that?

    Was Adam sired of either or woman?  Is God both his mother and father?

    Was Eve sired of a woman?  Is God her mother and Adam her father?

    Do you believe God sires children in the same way his creations do? If not then how does he sire children?


    k

    DID YOU LEARN SOMETHING FROM MY POST ???

    #304689
    942767
    Participant

    Quote (terraricca @ June 30 2012,15:36)
    Marty

    Quote
    And he is before all of God's creation in the sense that God created every thing that he created by him and for him.  God's plan before the world began was to reconcile the world unto Himself through His Only Begotten Son and His Christ.

    I did not see this ; God's plan before the world began”  so what you saying is that before God start to create he already made arrangements to send his son ,not created yet ,no universe ,no angels ect , Satan did not yet existed and ad not yet rebel,or men not sin,??? ,

    is this your message to me ??? yes or no or what


    Hi Pierre:

    That is correct.

    Quote
    Gen 1:1 ¶ In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

    Gen 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness [was] upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

    Quote
    Gen 1:7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which [were] under the firmament from the waters which [were] above the firmament: and it was so.

    Gen 1:8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.

    Quote
    Gen 1:31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, [it was] very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

    Quote
    Gen 2:4 ¶ These [are] the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,

    Quote
    Gen 3:1 ¶ Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?

    Love in Christ,
    Marty

    #304691
    942767
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ June 30 2012,18:30)
    Marty;

    Do you believe that Jesus is called the Second Adam in the Writings?  If so; where is he so called; and why is he called that?

    Was Adam sired of either or woman?  Is God both his mother and father?

    Was Eve sired of a woman?  Is God her mother and Adam her father?

    Do you believe God sires children in the same way his creations do? If not then how does he sire children?


    Hi Kerwin:

    What do you mean by the writings?

    This what I find in the scriptures about the Last Adam:

    Quote
    1Cr 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam [was made] a quickening spirit.

    1Cr 15:46 Howbeit that [was] not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

    1Cr 15:47 The first man [is] of the earth, earthy: the second man [is] the Lord from heaven.

    Adam's body was created from the dust of the earth, and Eve was created from one of Adam's ribs. Adam became a living being when God breathed the breathe of life into him. That is what the scriptures relate to us. They were created beings just as the angels were. Adam is said to be a son of God, and so God was his father. He gave him life by breathing the breathe of life into his body.

    No, God does not sire children in the same way that his creation does. Jesus is the only man who was born of God in the womb of a woman. The scripture states that the Holy Spirit overshadowed Mary and she conceived in her womb. There is no other man who was or will ever be born this way.

    I believe God can do this, don't you?

    Jesus was also born again from the dead which means that God is also the Father of His Spirit. All other men who were born of a woman were born of the sperm of man and if they are children of God, God is the Father of their Spirit. They are children of God through the Spirit of Adoption.

    I hope that this answers your questions.

    Love in Christ,
    Marty

    #304692
    942767
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 30 2012,10:14)
    Marty,

    Is it scriptural that John the Baptist called Jesus “the Lamb of God” – even though Jesus wasn't literally a lamb?  YES or NO?


    Yes.

    #304697
    Wakeup
    Participant

    Quote (942767 @ July 01 2012,13:41)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 30 2012,10:14)
    Marty,

    Is it scriptural that John the Baptist called Jesus “the Lamb of God” – even though Jesus wasn't literally a lamb?  YES or NO?


    Yes.


    Is jesus really a groom, or is it just symbolising him as a groom?
    Is jesus really a lamb, or is it hust symbolising him as a lamb?
    Is jesus really a rock, or is it only symbolising him as a rock?
    Is Jesus really a shepherd,or is it only symbolising him as a shepherd?
    Jesus is the light of the world;is he a glowing ball of light walking on earth?

    Who truly is the bride of Christ?
    Rev.21:2.9.10. please consider,is Jesus married to a city?

    wakeup.

    #304709
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 30 2012,20:25)

    Quote (kerwin @ June 30 2012,01:58)
    Your words make it seem that you are wrapped in the letter of Scripture but fail to follow the Spirit of Scripture.


    Kerwin,

    It seems there are only two choices:

    1.  Each and every time “the word of God” is mentioned in the scriptures, it refers to Jesus.

    2.  More than one thing is referred to by the phrase “the word of God”.

    Do you think that every time “the word of God” is mentioned in scripture, it is in reference to the person who rides the white horse in Rev 19:13?  YES or NO?


    Mike;

    Each time the Word of God is mentioned in Scripture is means the Word that comes out of Jehovah's mouth. This includes Revelations 19:13.

    Jesus is called by the name of that which comes out of the mouth of God.

    #304715
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ July 01 2012,23:27)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 30 2012,20:25)

    Quote (kerwin @ June 30 2012,01:58)
    Your words make it seem that you are wrapped in the letter of Scripture but fail to follow the Spirit of Scripture.


    Kerwin,

    It seems there are only two choices:

    1.  Each and every time “the word of God” is mentioned in the scriptures, it refers to Jesus.

    2.  More than one thing is referred to by the phrase “the word of God”.

    Do you think that every time “the word of God” is mentioned in scripture, it is in reference to the person who rides the white horse in Rev 19:13?  YES or NO?


    Mike;

    Each time the Word of God is mentioned in Scripture is means the Word that comes out of Jehovah's mouth.   This includes Revelations 19:13.  

    Jesus is called by the name of that which comes out of the mouth of God.


    K

    And what his the sword in his mouth ??? Rev 19

    No one can see Words ,do you not understand this ???

    No one can touch words ,can you understand that ???

    Words do not have a live of their own,or do they ???

    Spoken,written,words are only powerfull BECAUSE THEY ARE TRUE,and from God,and are also related to men ,us.do you understand this,???

    All the so called N.T his about Gods son ,that came down from above from the father,to fulfill the law,what no men could do because we are all born in sin.do you understand this,

    He came down and took the cover of flesh to be like us,he could never be us ,because his father his God and our father his man,do you understand that ???

    To be covered with flesh he came trough a maiden,a surrogate mother,

    A women devoted to the Lord and the law.

    And one more thing ,words do not visit people,or do they ??? ,if yes please explain,

    #304716
    kerwin
    Participant

    Marty,

    Scriptures=Writings. It is just traditions that lead us to say Scriptures.

    There is no mention of Jesus in 1 Corinthians 15:45-47. That interpretation is based on tradition, the idea Jesus is a being whose body consists of spirit and that Jesus is the first man of the new creation. The KJV also has added words that support it which are not in the Ancient Greek.

    Scripture speaks of each man being composed two men; the first is the outer man who is made from the dust while the second man is the spirit that comes from God and gives life to the body; making it a living soul.

    The Spirit came upon Mary just as the Spirit moved upon the face of the waters during the first day of creation and later landed upon her Son at his immersion. God’s power overshadowed her as some hoped Peter’s shadow would overshadow them in Acts 5:15 and a cloud overshadowed Jesus and his disciples after he was transfigured on the mount. Don’t you believe the Spirit moved upon the face of creation and God overshadowed Adam when he created the later; especially as later God stated his Spirit would no longer struggle with fallen flesh, Genesis 6:3?

    The Spirit of God landed on Adam and caused Eve to be conceived by the overshadowing power of God; a similar thing later happened with Jesus. Adam is all human despite having no mother or father of his flesh; Eve is all human despite having no mother of her flesh, and so also Jesus is all human despite having no father of his flesh.

    John the Baptist saw the Word in Jesus as Jesus was coming to be immersed by him and so stated that Jesus should immerse him and not the other way around. Jesus is the Son through the Word, which was even then in him.

    #304723
    Wakeup
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ July 01 2012,18:03)
    Marty,

    Scriptures=Writings.  It is just traditions that lead us to say Scriptures.

    There is no mention of Jesus in 1 Corinthians 15:45-47.  That interpretation is based on tradition, the idea Jesus is a being whose body consists of spirit and that Jesus is the first man of the new creation.  The KJV also has added words that support it which are not in the Ancient Greek.  

    Scripture speaks of each man being composed two men; the first is the outer man who is made from the dust while the second man is the spirit that comes from God and gives life to the body; making it a living soul.

    The Spirit came upon Mary just as the Spirit moved upon the face of the waters during the first day of creation and later landed upon her Son at his immersion.  God’s power overshadowed her as some hoped Peter’s shadow would overshadow them in Acts 5:15 and a cloud overshadowed Jesus and his disciples after he was transfigured on the mount.  Don’t you believe the Spirit moved upon the face of creation and God overshadowed Adam when he created the later; especially as later God stated his Spirit would no longer struggle with fallen flesh, Genesis 6:3?

    The Spirit of God landed on Adam and caused Eve to be conceived by the overshadowing power of God; a similar thing later happened with Jesus. Adam is all human despite having no mother or father of his flesh; Eve is all human despite having no mother of her flesh, and so also Jesus is all human despite having no father of his flesh.

    John the Baptist saw the Word in Jesus as Jesus was coming to be immersed by him and so stated that Jesus should immerse him and not the other way around.  Jesus is the Son through the Word, which was even then in him.


    Kerwin .

    You should just do away with reading the english bible and just go by your ancient greek bible.

    wakeup.

    #304730
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ July 02 2012,01:03)
    Marty,

    Scriptures=Writings.  It is just traditions that lead us to say Scriptures.

    There is no mention of Jesus in 1 Corinthians 15:45-47.  That interpretation is based on tradition, the idea Jesus is a being whose body consists of spirit and that Jesus is the first man of the new creation.  The KJV also has added words that support it which are not in the Ancient Greek.  

    Scripture speaks of each man being composed two men; the first is the outer man who is made from the dust while the second man is the spirit that comes from God and gives life to the body; making it a living soul.

    The Spirit came upon Mary just as the Spirit moved upon the face of the waters during the first day of creation and later landed upon her Son at his immersion.  God’s power overshadowed her as some hoped Peter’s shadow would overshadow them in Acts 5:15 and a cloud overshadowed Jesus and his disciples after he was transfigured on the mount.  Don’t you believe the Spirit moved upon the face of creation and God overshadowed Adam when he created the later; especially as later God stated his Spirit would no longer struggle with fallen flesh, Genesis 6:3?

    The Spirit of God landed on Adam and caused Eve to be conceived by the overshadowing power of God; a similar thing later happened with Jesus. Adam is all human despite having no mother or father of his flesh; Eve is all human despite having no mother of her flesh, and so also Jesus is all human despite having no father of his flesh.

    John the Baptist saw the Word in Jesus as Jesus was coming to be immersed by him and so stated that Jesus should immerse him and not the other way around.  Jesus is the Son through the Word, which was even then in him.


    K

    Quote
    Scripture speaks of each man being composed two men; the first is the outer man who is made from the dust while the second man is the spirit that comes from God and gives life to the body; making it a living soul.

    show scriptures for this or retracte you faulty doctrines,

    Quote
    The Spirit came upon Mary just as the Spirit moved upon the face of the waters during the first day of creation and later landed upon her Son at his immersion. God’s power overshadowed her as some hoped Peter’s shadow would overshadow them in Acts 5:15 and a cloud overshadowed Jesus and his disciples after he was transfigured on the mount. Don’t you believe the Spirit moved upon the face of creation and God overshadowed Adam when he created the later; especially as later God stated his Spirit would no longer struggle with fallen flesh, Genesis 6:3?

    what is your religion any way ??? it seems to me you make it up as you read your multy version of scriptures and rejecting them as you move along in them denying the power that make it the truth,

    Quote
    The Spirit of God landed on Adam and caused Eve to be conceived by the overshadowing power of God; a similar thing later happened with Jesus. Adam is all human despite having no mother or father of his flesh; Eve is all human despite having no mother of her flesh, and so also Jesus is all human despite having no father of his flesh.

    any scriptures to cover this way of conviction of yours ???

    Quote
    John the Baptist saw the Word in Jesus as Jesus was coming to be immersed by him and so stated that Jesus should immerse him and not the other way around. Jesus is the Son through the Word, which was even then in him.


    CAN ANYONE SEE WORDS ??? COMING OUT OF SOMEONE ,YOU GO EVEN DEEPER IN YOUR LIES ;YOU SAY THAT JOHN THE BAPTIST SAW THE WORDS THAT ARE IN CHRIST ,WERE DO YOU SEE THIS INSANITY.

    #304731
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (942767 @ June 30 2012,20:41)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 30 2012,10:14)
    Marty,

    Is it scriptural that John the Baptist called Jesus “the Lamb of God” – even though Jesus wasn't literally a lamb?  YES or NO?


    Yes.


    Hi Marty,

    And is it scriptural that Jesus is called by the name “the Word of God” – even though he is not literally a spoke word from God? YES or NO?

    #304732
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (942767 @ July 01 2012,20:08)

    Quote (terraricca @ June 30 2012,15:36)
    Marty

    Quote
    And he is before all of God's creation in the sense that God created every thing that he created by him and for him.  God's plan before the world began was to reconcile the world unto Himself through His Only Begotten Son and His Christ.

    I did not see this ; God's plan before the world began”  so what you saying is that before God start to create he already made arrangements to send his son ,not created yet ,no universe ,no angels ect , Satan did not yet existed and ad not yet rebel,or men not sin,??? ,

    is this your message to me ??? yes or no or what


    Hi Pierre:

    That is correct.

    Quote
    Gen 1:1 ¶ In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.  

    Gen 1:2   And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness [was] upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.  

    Quote
    Gen 1:7   And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which [were] under the firmament from the waters which [were] above the firmament: and it was so.  

    Gen 1:8   And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.  

    Quote
    Gen 1:31   And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, [it was] very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

    Quote
    Gen 2:4 ¶ These [are] the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,  

    Quote
    Gen 3:1 ¶ Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?  

    Love in Christ,
    Marty


    MARTY

    you believe this just because you believe that the beginning of all things start in Gen 1;1 is it ???

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