John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 8,381 through 8,400 (of 26,009 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #304484
    Ed J
    Participant

    Quote (terraricca @ June 29 2012,15:37)

    Quote (Ed J @ June 29 2012,21:44)
    Your negative opinions carry little to no meaning.


    edj

    I know, :D  :D  :D


    Hi Pierre,

    As long as it doesn't bother you.

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

    #304490
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (Ed J @ June 29 2012,22:44)

    Quote (terraricca @ June 29 2012,15:37)

    Quote (Ed J @ June 29 2012,21:44)
    Your negative opinions carry little to no meaning.


    edj

    I know, :D  :D  :D


    Hi Pierre,

    As long as it doesn't bother you.

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org


    edj

    just like Nick :D

    #304496
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (terraricca @ June 29 2012,06:24)

    Quote (kerwin @ June 29 2012,18:02)
    T;

    Scripture states the righteous live by faith.  They also state that without faith you cannot please.  The one who does not trust Jehovah does not believe he is who he is because he is Trustworthy.


    K

    read the scriptures more and more you needed ,faith is it trust ???

    what is the difference ???

    and where is it written that Christ had faith ???


    T;

    It is written that the righteous live by faith. Jesus lived a a righteous life even though tempted by sin even as is common to humanity. Therefore he lived that life by faith and still lives by faith as without faith you cannot please God, Hebrews 11:6.

    The definition I have read for faith is trust in something. Abraham trusted in God's word and it was credited to him as righteousness.

    #304498
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ June 30 2012,00:11)

    Quote (terraricca @ June 29 2012,06:24)

    Quote (kerwin @ June 29 2012,18:02)
    T;

    Scripture states the righteous live by faith.  They also state that without faith you cannot please.  The one who does not trust Jehovah does not believe he is who he is because he is Trustworthy.


    K

    read the scriptures more and more you needed ,faith is it trust ???

    what is the difference ???

    and where is it written that Christ had faith ???


    T;

    It is written that the righteous live by faith.  Jesus lived a a righteous life even though tempted by sin even as is common to humanity.  Therefore he lived that life by faith and still lives by faith as without faith you cannot please God, Hebrews 11:6.

    The definition I have read for faith is trust in something.  Abraham trusted in God's word and it was credited to him as righteousness.


    K

    So you do not know ,and so keep talking and talking and not answering the questions,

    Faith is believing NO??? So now it is also Trust ??? You say yes,

    But show the scripture that says Christ had faith

    Not your opinion,ok

    #304500
    kerwin
    Participant

    Mike,

    Quote
    Does scripture tell us when or why Jesus started being called the Word of God?  If it does, that is news to me.

    Anyway, your response was irrelevant to my question.  I only want to know if God meant Jesus when he spoke of putting His word in His people's inward parts in Jer 31:33.  Do you think God was talking about Jesus in that scripture?

    I know that Jehovah did write the Word upon Jesus' heart and place it into his heart for Isaiah 42:1 teaches us that.  John 1:14 speaks of a time when the Word was made flesh and John the Baptist recognized the Word in Jesus when Jesus came to him to be immersed.

    #304502
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ June 30 2012,00:39)
    Mike,

    Quote
    Does scripture tell us when or why Jesus started being called the Word of God?  If it does, that is news to me.

    Anyway, your response was irrelevant to my question.  I only want to know if God meant Jesus when he spoke of putting His word in His people's inward parts in Jer 31:33.  Do you think God was talking about Jesus in that scripture?

    I know that Jehovah did write the Word upon Jesus' heart and place it into his heart for Isaiah 42:1 teaches us that.  John 1:14 speaks of a time when the Word was made flesh and John the Baptist recognized the Word in Jesus hen Jesus came to him to be immersed.


    K

    We're does it say that
    John saw the word in Christ ??? John almost refuse to baptize Christ and Jesus hardly says anything to
    John ,so we're do get your opinions from ???

    #304504
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (terraricca @ June 29 2012,12:33)

    Quote (kerwin @ June 30 2012,00:11)

    Quote (terraricca @ June 29 2012,06:24)

    Quote (kerwin @ June 29 2012,18:02)
    T;

    Scripture states the righteous live by faith.  They also state that without faith you cannot please.  The one who does not trust Jehovah does not believe he is who he is because he is Trustworthy.


    K

    read the scriptures more and more you needed ,faith is it trust ???

    what is the difference ???

    and where is it written that Christ had faith ???


    T;

    It is written that the righteous live by faith.  Jesus lived a a righteous life even though tempted by sin even as is common to humanity.  Therefore he lived that life by faith and still lives by faith as without faith you cannot please God, Hebrews 11:6.

    The definition I have read for faith is trust in something.  Abraham trusted in God's word and it was credited to him as righteousness.


    K

    So you do not know ,and so keep talking and talking and not answering the questions,

    Faith is believing NO???  So now it is also Trust ??? You say yes,

    But show the scripture that says Christ had faith

    Not your opinion,ok


    T;

    Your words reveal you do not understand Scripture because if you did then you would know:

    1) Jesus could not be righteous without faith.

    2) Jesus could not please Jehovah without faith.

    There is no opinion here; just belief in the Word of God.  I looked up the definition of and was taught the archaic definition was trust. I also looked up the synonym and was told that one usage is “trust in something”.  That is not my opinion as it is a definition of faith.  I employed that usage in the case of Abraham.

    #304506
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ June 30 2012,00:56)

    Quote (terraricca @ June 29 2012,12:33)

    Quote (kerwin @ June 30 2012,00:11)

    Quote (terraricca @ June 29 2012,06:24)

    Quote (kerwin @ June 29 2012,18:02)
    T;

    Scripture states the righteous live by faith.  They also state that without faith you cannot please.  The one who does not trust Jehovah does not believe he is who he is because he is Trustworthy.


    K

    read the scriptures more and more you needed ,faith is it trust ???

    what is the difference ???

    and where is it written that Christ had faith ???


    T;

    It is written that the righteous live by faith.  Jesus lived a a righteous life even though tempted by sin even as is common to humanity.  Therefore he lived that life by faith and still lives by faith as without faith you cannot please God, Hebrews 11:6.

    The definition I have read for faith is trust in something.  Abraham trusted in God's word and it was credited to him as righteousness.


    K

    So you do not know ,and so keep talking and talking and not answering the questions,

    Faith is believing NO???  So now it is also Trust ??? You say yes,

    But show the scripture that says Christ had faith

    Not your opinion,ok


    T;

    Your words reveal you do not understand Scripture because if you did then you would know:

    1) Jesus could not be righteous without faith.

    2) Jesus could not please Jehovah without faith.

    There is no opinion here; just belief in the Word of God.  I looked up the definition of and was taught the archaic definition was trust. I also looked up the synonym and was told that one usage is “trust in something”.  That is not my opinion as it is a definition of faith.  I employed that usage in the case of Abraham.


    K

    If my father is known to me then I would not have faith in him but would trust him ,

    Now not only you can not give me that scripture I ask,but you claim that Christ his born from an unknown father ,

    And why would Christ call to have faith in him and his God, and so did the apostles teachings,???

    Now Hebrew 11 talks about what is faith ,is this what Christ had or teaches ???

    #304527
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (Wakeup @ June 28 2012,22:01)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 29 2012,12:28)
    Wakeup,

    I have no clue what question those verses are supposed to answer, or what you're trying to tell me with them.


    MokeB.

    Your question: Does it say in scripture, when Jesus was called the word of God?
    My answer; yes,in rev.19:13.
    ————————————————-
    You notice in isiah 43:11. it says,that beside me there is no saviour?

    But then in 44:6. It mentioined the king of israel AND HIS REDEEMER,THE LORD OF HOST.(??).
    Is this a contradiction?

    wakeup.


    Hi Wakeup,

    Look at my question again. I asked if scripture tells us when and why Jesus started being called the Word of God. I agree that he is called that in Rev 19:13, but Kerwin has inferred that Jesus was given this name because of the faith he displayed as a human being. I was asking him for a scripture that supported his claim.

    And no, there is no contradiction in the two Is scriptures you posted. Calling Jehovah our ONLY Savior is obviously an emphatic statement, for we know of MANY other saviors He sent. Similarly, calling Him the ONLY elohim is emphatical, for the scriptures are loaded with MANY other elohim.

    Why? Do YOU see a contradiction? What is it you're trying to teach me with those scriptures?

    #304529
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (kerwin @ June 29 2012,00:11)
    The definition I have read for faith is trust in something.

    Hebrews 11:1
    Faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see.

    #304530
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (kerwin @ June 29 2012,00:39)
    Mike,

    Quote
    Does scripture tell us when or why Jesus started being called the Word of God?  If it does, that is news to me.

    Anyway, your response was irrelevant to my question.  I only want to know if God meant Jesus when he spoke of putting His word in His people's inward parts in Jer 31:33.  Do you think God was talking about Jesus in that scripture?

    I know that Jehovah did write the Word upon Jesus' heart and place it into his heart for Isaiah 42:1 teaches us that.  John 1:14 speaks of a time when the Word was made flesh and John the Baptist recognized the Word in Jesus when Jesus came to him to be immersed.


    Kerwin,

    Why not just directly answer the question I asked? ???

    Did God mean “Jesus” when he spoke of putting His word in His people's inward parts in Jer 31:33? Do you think God was talking about Jesus in that scripture? YES or NO?

    #304533
    942767
    Participant

    Quote (terraricca @ June 27 2012,15:02)

    Quote (942767 @ June 27 2012,21:36)

    Quote (terraricca @ June 27 2012,12:02)
    Marty

    Quote
    Son made of a woman

    I have never seen this in scriptures can you point it out to me ,

    and is the offspring not from the man rather than a women ,is it not the man that fertilized the women ????

    is it not the male that provide live ??? and so how can a women be of any importance to the son of God ??? does God deals with women in an human way ???or flesh way ???

    Christ his the only begotten son of God and the WORD OF GOD, that God allows him to be going trough the sacrifice for all of creation ,the main reason that it can not be God ,is because God almighty the creator does not give his live for his creation,but his son who love s his father did it and so came down to be vested in flesh and die for the salvation of all men and creation,because ALL THINGS WERE CREATED THROUGH HIM, this shows that he was the first of that creation,and so all the supreme tittles will go to him ,

    his mother was a surrogate mother ,a devoted women to her God ,just has we all should be and let God use us as he pleases,many examples in scriptures,


    Hi Pierre:

    Here is the scripture:

    Quote
    l
    Galatians 4:4   But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,

    I am not sure that I am understanding the rest of your questions.

    Love in Christ,
    Marty


    Marty

    thanks :)
    Gal 4:4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
    Gal 4:5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.

    so was his son SEND TO THE WOMEN ??? OR WHAT ???


    Hi Pierre:

    God anointed him with the Holy Spirit and sent him into the world in his earthly ministry to preach the gospel. Here are the scriptures for your study:

    Quote
    Luke 4:18
    The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,

    Quote
    John 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

    13 And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves.

    14 I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

    15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.

    16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

    17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

    18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.

    Love in Christ,
    Marty

    #304535
    942767
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 28 2012,10:39)

    Quote (942767 @ June 26 2012,21:31)
    Hi Mike:

    Yes, my name is Marty, and his name is Jesus is that not correct?  

    He is called “the Everlasting Father”.  Is he “the Everlasting Father”, Mike?

    Love in Christ,
    Marty


    Hi Marty,

    And if you also were known by the name “Sledgehammer”, could I look at you and say, “There goes Sledgehammer” – even though you are not LITERALLY a sledgehammer?  YES or NO?

    And since Jesus is known by many other names besides “Jesus”, could John the Baptist see Jesus and say, “Behold, there goes the Lamb of God” – even though Jesus was not LITERALLY a Lamb?  YES or NO?

    Could the Apostle John see Jesus and say, “Behold, there goes the Word of God” – even though Jesus was not LITERALLY a spoken word of God?  YES or NO?

    Marty, please answer these questions this time.

    As far as Isaiah 9:6, I don't know what to think.  Look at how it is in the Septuagint:
    Isaiah 9:6 LXX
    For a child is born to us, and a son is given to us, whose government is upon his shoulder: and his name is called the Messenger of great counsel: for I will bring peace upon the princes, and health to him.

    It says nothing about “god” or “father” for some reason.  But, if we are to take it from the Hebrew, consider these:
    Job 29:16
    I was a father to the needy, and I investigated the case of the person I did not know;

    Isaiah 22
    20 “In that day I will summon my servant, Eliakim son of Hilkiah. 21 I will clothe him with your robe and fasten your sash around him and hand your authority over to him. He will be a father to those who live in Jerusalem and to the house of Judah.

    2 Kings 2
    11 As they were walking along and talking together, suddenly a chariot of fire and horses of fire appeared and separated the two of them, and Elijah went up to heaven in a whirlwind. 12 Elisha saw this and cried out, “My father! My father! The chariots and horsemen of Israel!”

    In certain cases, the word “father” isn't literal, but refers to a “protector”.  And Jesus will be our everlasting protector, right?

    But let's not stray, Marty.  I REALLY want to know why Jesus, who has “the Word of God” as one of his many names, couldn't have been called by that name in by John in 1:1 and 1:14.  Do you have a SCRIPTURAL reason John could not have been referring to Jesus in these verses?  Or just PERSONAL ones?

    I mean, if I saw Jesus coming on the clouds today, and I said to you, “Look Marty!  Here comes the Word of God!”, wouldn't you know I was referring to Jesus?


    Hi Mike:

    And so, now you want to make up your own scriptures to justify your stance?

    Let's just stick to what the scriptures state.

    Love in Christ,
    Marty

    #304544
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Marty,

    Is it scriptural that John the Baptist called Jesus “the Lamb of God” – even though Jesus wasn't literally a lamb? YES or NO?

    #304547
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (942767 @ June 30 2012,16:46)

    Quote (terraricca @ June 27 2012,15:02)

    Quote (942767 @ June 27 2012,21:36)

    Quote (terraricca @ June 27 2012,12:02)
    Marty

    Quote
    Son made of a woman

    I have never seen this in scriptures can you point it out to me ,

    and is the offspring not from the man rather than a women ,is it not the man that fertilized the women ????

    is it not the male that provide live ??? and so how can a women be of any importance to the son of God ??? does God deals with women in an human way ???or flesh way ???

    Christ his the only begotten son of God and the WORD OF GOD, that God allows him to be going trough the sacrifice for all of creation ,the main reason that it can not be God ,is because God almighty the creator does not give his live for his creation,but his son who love s his father did it and so came down to be vested in flesh and die for the salvation of all men and creation,because ALL THINGS WERE CREATED THROUGH HIM, this shows that he was the first of that creation,and so all the supreme tittles will go to him ,

    his mother was a surrogate mother ,a devoted women to her God ,just has we all should be and let God use us as he pleases,many examples in scriptures,


    Hi Pierre:

    Here is the scripture:

    Quote
    l
    Galatians 4:4   But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,

    I am not sure that I am understanding the rest of your questions.

    Love in Christ,
    Marty


    Marty

    thanks :)
    Gal 4:4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
    Gal 4:5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.

    so was his son SEND TO THE WOMEN ??? OR WHAT ???


    Hi Pierre:

    God anointed him with the Holy Spirit and sent him into the world in his earthly ministry to preach the gospel.  Here are the scriptures for your study:

    Quote
    Luke 4:18
    The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,

    Quote
    John 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

    13 And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves.

    14 I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

    15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.

    16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

    17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

    18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.

    Love in Christ,
    Marty


    Marty

    you do not answer my question, your scriptures do not answer my question ,neither answer your view ,

    Jn 1:10 He (Jesus) was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him.

    Jn 1:12 Yet to all who received him (Jesus christ), to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God—

    what was that name ???verse 12

    Jn 1:15 John testifies concerning him (Jesus). He cries out, saying, “This was he of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.’ ”

    how could this be that Jesus existed before John the Baptist we all know it was the other way around in the flesh ???

    #304550
    942767
    Participant

    Quote (terraricca @ June 30 2012,10:29)

    Quote (942767 @ June 30 2012,16:46)

    Quote (terraricca @ June 27 2012,15:02)

    Quote (942767 @ June 27 2012,21:36)

    Quote (terraricca @ June 27 2012,12:02)
    Marty

    Quote
    Son made of a woman

    I have never seen this in scriptures can you point it out to me ,

    and is the offspring not from the man rather than a women ,is it not the man that fertilized the women ????

    is it not the male that provide live ??? and so how can a women be of any importance to the son of God ??? does God deals with women in an human way ???or flesh way ???

    Christ his the only begotten son of God and the WORD OF GOD, that God allows him to be going trough the sacrifice for all of creation ,the main reason that it can not be God ,is because God almighty the creator does not give his live for his creation,but his son who love s his father did it and so came down to be vested in flesh and die for the salvation of all men and creation,because ALL THINGS WERE CREATED THROUGH HIM, this shows that he was the first of that creation,and so all the supreme tittles will go to him ,

    his mother was a surrogate mother ,a devoted women to her God ,just has we all should be and let God use us as he pleases,many examples in scriptures,


    Hi Pierre:

    Here is the scripture:

    Quote
    l
    Galatians 4:4   But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,

    I am not sure that I am understanding the rest of your questions.

    Love in Christ,
    Marty


    Marty

    thanks :)
    Gal 4:4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
    Gal 4:5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.

    so was his son SEND TO THE WOMEN ??? OR WHAT ???


    Hi Pierre:

    God anointed him with the Holy Spirit and sent him into the world in his earthly ministry to preach the gospel.  Here are the scriptures for your study:

    Quote
    Luke 4:18
    The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,

    Quote
    John 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

    13 And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves.

    14 I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

    15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.

    16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

    17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

    18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.

    Love in Christ,
    Marty


    Marty

    you do not answer my question, your scriptures do not answer my question ,neither answer your view ,

    Jn 1:10 He (Jesus) was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him.

    Jn 1:12 Yet to all who received him (Jesus christ), to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God—

    what was that name ???verse 12

    Jn 1:15 John testifies concerning him (Jesus). He cries out, saying, “This was he of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.’ ”

    how could this be that Jesus existed before John the Baptist  we all know it was the other way around in the flesh ???


    Hi Pierre:

    The name is “Jesus” which means “Jehovah is salvation”.

    And he is before all of God's creation in the sense that God created every thing that he created by him and for him. God's plan before the world began was to reconcile the world unto Himself through His Only Begotten Son and His Christ.

    Quote
    Hebrews 1
    King James Version (KJV)
    1GOD, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,

    2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

    Quote
    Colossians 1:12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:

    13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

    14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

    15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

    16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

    17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

    18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

    19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;

    20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

    21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled

    22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:

    I hope that this answers your questions to your satisfaction.

    Love in Christ,
    Marty

    #304551
    Frank4YAHWEH
    Participant

    To ALL,

    I see some here have questioned whether Yahshua had faith. He most certainly did!

    Yahshua Messiah had faith, in fact, he is the leader and perfecter of faith. If we believe in him, we live by his faith also.

    The Faithful Witness:

    ‘And from Yahshua Messiah, the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead and ruler of the kings of the earth” (Revelation 1:5).

    “So be it, the faithful and true witness, the reason of Yahweh’s creation” (Revelation 3:14).

    The Faithful High Priest:

    “Therefore, he had to become like his brothers in every way, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest before Yahweh to expiate the sins of the people.” (Hebrews 2:14)

    Yahshua Was Faithful to the One Who Appointed Him:

    “…Yahshua, the apostle and high priest of our confession, was faithful to the One Who appointed him, just as Moshe was faithful in his house” (Hebrews 3:2).

    Yahshua Was Faithful as a Son Placed Over His House:

    “But Messiah was faithful as a son placed over His house. We are His house, if we hold fast to our courage and are confident in our hope.” (Hebrews 3:6).

    WHO IS THE WORD?

    “Jesus IS God!”?

    Did Yahshua Create Or Pre-exist His Birth?

    #304552
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (942767 @ June 30 2012,18:29)

    Quote (terraricca @ June 30 2012,10:29)

    Quote (942767 @ June 30 2012,16:46)

    Quote (terraricca @ June 27 2012,15:02)

    Quote (942767 @ June 27 2012,21:36)

    Quote (terraricca @ June 27 2012,12:02)
    Marty

    Quote
    Son made of a woman

    I have never seen this in scriptures can you point it out to me ,

    and is the offspring not from the man rather than a women ,is it not the man that fertilized the women ????

    is it not the male that provide live ??? and so how can a women be of any importance to the son of God ??? does God deals with women in an human way ???or flesh way ???

    Christ his the only begotten son of God and the WORD OF GOD, that God allows him to be going trough the sacrifice for all of creation ,the main reason that it can not be God ,is because God almighty the creator does not give his live for his creation,but his son who love s his father did it and so came down to be vested in flesh and die for the salvation of all men and creation,because ALL THINGS WERE CREATED THROUGH HIM, this shows that he was the first of that creation,and so all the supreme tittles will go to him ,

    his mother was a surrogate mother ,a devoted women to her God ,just has we all should be and let God use us as he pleases,many examples in scriptures,


    Hi Pierre:

    Here is the scripture:

    Quote
    l
    Galatians 4:4   But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,

    I am not sure that I am understanding the rest of your questions.

    Love in Christ,
    Marty


    Marty

    thanks :)
    Gal 4:4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
    Gal 4:5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.

    so was his son SEND TO THE WOMEN ??? OR WHAT ???


    Hi Pierre:

    God anointed him with the Holy Spirit and sent him into the world in his earthly ministry to preach the gospel.  Here are the scriptures for your study:

    Quote
    Luke 4:18
    The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,

    Quote
    John 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

    13 And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves.

    14 I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

    15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.

    16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

    17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

    18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.

    Love in Christ,
    Marty


    Marty

    you do not answer my question, your scriptures do not answer my question ,neither answer your view ,

    Jn 1:10 He (Jesus) was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him.

    Jn 1:12 Yet to all who received him (Jesus christ), to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God—

    what was that name ???verse 12

    Jn 1:15 John testifies concerning him (Jesus). He cries out, saying, “This was he of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.’ ”

    how could this be that Jesus existed before John the Baptist  we all know it was the other way around in the flesh ???


    Hi Pierre:

    The name is “Jesus” which means “Jehovah is salvation”.

    And he is before all of God's creation in the sense that God created every thing that he created by him and for him.  God's plan before the world began was to reconcile the world unto Himself through His Only Begotten Son and His Christ.

    Quote
    Hebrews 1
    King James Version (KJV)
    1GOD, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,

    2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worl
    ds
    ;

    Quote
    Colossians 1:12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:

    13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

    14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

    15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

    16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

    17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

    18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

    19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;

    20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

    21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled

    22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:

    I hope that this answers your questions to your satisfaction.

    Love in Christ,
    Marty


    Marty

    Quote
    he name is “Jesus” which means “Jehovah is salvation”.

    And he is before all of God's creation in the sense that God created every thing that he created by him and for him. God's plan before the world began was to reconcile the world unto Himself through His Only Begotten Son and His Christ.

    this I agree with you so Jesus was not born (created as a being at his manlike birth right ??)

    as you pointing out the scriptures that say this right ???

    #304560
    942767
    Participant

    Hi Pierre:

    Jesus was born of a woman just as all men after the First Adam have been except that he was not born of the sperm of man, but God by His Holy Spirit overshadowed the virgin Mary and she conceived in her womb. And so, although he was and is a man, God is His Father. He was not fathered by any man.

    Quote
    Romans 1
    King James Version (KJV)
    1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God,

    2 (Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,)

    3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;

    4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:

    Love in Christ,
    Marty

    #304565
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (942767 @ June 30 2012,19:11)
    Hi Pierre:

    Jesus was born of a woman just as all men after the First Adam have been except that he was not born of the sperm of man, but God by His Holy Spirit overshadowed the virgin Mary and she conceived in her womb. And so, although he was and is a man, God is His Father.  He was not fathered by any man.

    Quote
    Romans 1
    King James Version (KJV)
    1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God,

    2 (Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,)

    3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;

    4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:

    Love in Christ,
    Marty


    Marty

    thousands of babies are born from a surrogate mother every day,(and the parents of the child are waiting the birth)

    and you think God could not do this ??? (I mean take his son and make him to become a human being in this way ???)

    do you think God is limited ??? and the sons of man are born to man through a man and a women as far that I know ,well this is the way that I had my kids   :D

    but Christ the son of God the creator does not mix with women and it says that his son was created BEFORE ALL CREATION ,AND THAT ALL THINGS WERE CREATED THROUGH HIM ,if this is true then Christ preexisted his birth as a man,

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