John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 8,241 through 8,260 (of 26,009 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #303495
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Pierre and journey, thank you both for your words.  Pierre, if I get REALLY sad, will you let me win the chess game to make me feel better?  Or is that something separate?  :)

    About the subject of jammin's thread:

    Someone dwelled on earth having the glory of God's only begotten.  I know that was Jesus, because he is the only one who could possibly have the glory of God's only begotten………… because he is the only one who IS God's only begotten.

    1:14 says that the one who dwelled on earth with the glory of God's only begotten “became flesh”.  I doubt any of us here speak with pride about the day our child “became flesh”.  We most likely speak very fondly of the days our children were born, but we wouldn't say something like, “I remember fondly the day little Mikey became flesh“.

    To me, the wording “became flesh”, or “was made flesh”, speaks of one who at one time WASN'T flesh, but then was MADE flesh.  So whoever “became flesh” must have been existing in a different form before being made into a human being.  (See Phil 2:5-8)

    And according to 1:14, this one who “became flesh” is referred to as “the Word”.  So working it backwards, I come to the conclusion that Jesus is the only one who ever dwelled on earth with the glory of God's only begotten, and therefore the one who “became flesh”, and therefore “the Word”.

    There are many scriptures that support this understanding (Phil 2 and Rev 19 come immediately to mind), and not one scripture refutes it.

    #303500
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi MB,
    Indeed the Word was not flesh.
    The Word was with God.

    #303504
    journey42
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 22 2012,09:59)
    Pierre and journey, thank you both for your words.  Pierre, if I get REALLY sad, will you let me win the chess game to make me feel better?  Or is that something separate?  :)

    About the subject of jammin's thread:

    Someone dwelled on earth having the glory of God's only begotten.  I know that was Jesus, because he is the only one who could possibly have the glory of God's only begotten………… because he is the only one who IS God's only begotten.

    1:14 says that the one who dwelled on earth with the glory of God's only begotten “became flesh”.  I doubt any of us here speak with pride about the day our child “became flesh”.  We most likely speak very fondly of the days our children were born, but we wouldn't say something like, “I remember fondly the day little Mikey became flesh“.

    To me, the wording “became flesh”, or “was made flesh”, speaks of one who at one time WASN'T flesh, but then was MADE flesh.  So whoever “became flesh” must have been existing in a different form before being made into a human being.  (See Phil 2:5-8)

    And according to 1:14, this one who “became flesh” is referred to as “the Word”.  So working it backwards, I come to the conclusion that Jesus is the only one who ever dwelled on earth with the glory of God's only begotten, and therefore the one who “became flesh”, and therefore “the Word”.

    There are many scriptures that support this understanding (Phil 2 and Rev 19 come immediately to mind), and not one scripture refutes it.


    Amen Mike
    God revealed this to you.

    #303514
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 21 2012,17:10)
    Hi MB,
    Indeed the Word was not flesh.
    The Word was with God.


    I concur, Nick. But when the Word was made flesh, the disciples were able to see that he had the glory of God's only begotten. Only one would have that glory, because only one is God's only begotten.

    #303517
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi MB,
    And we who are reborn into him can share that glory the man Jesus gained.

    #303523
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 22 2012,16:59)
    Pierre and journey, thank you both for your words.  Pierre, if I get REALLY sad, will you let me win the chess game to make me feel better?  Or is that something separate?  :)

    About the subject of jammin's thread:

    Someone dwelled on earth having the glory of God's only begotten.  I know that was Jesus, because he is the only one who could possibly have the glory of God's only begotten………… because he is the only one who IS God's only begotten.

    1:14 says that the one who dwelled on earth with the glory of God's only begotten “became flesh”.  I doubt any of us here speak with pride about the day our child “became flesh”.  We most likely speak very fondly of the days our children were born, but we wouldn't say something like, “I remember fondly the day little Mikey became flesh“.

    To me, the wording “became flesh”, or “was made flesh”, speaks of one who at one time WASN'T flesh, but then was MADE flesh.  So whoever “became flesh” must have been existing in a different form before being made into a human being.  (See Phil 2:5-8)

    And according to 1:14, this one who “became flesh” is referred to as “the Word”.  So working it backwards, I come to the conclusion that Jesus is the only one who ever dwelled on earth with the glory of God's only begotten, and therefore the one who “became flesh”, and therefore “the Word”.

    There are many scriptures that support this understanding (Phil 2 and Rev 19 come immediately to mind), and not one scripture refutes it.


    Mike

    :D Yes I would because all my soul is devoted to God ,no matter what I do ,chess is just a game for our enjoyment ,no more ,but you not notice it .

    Take care my friend ,the things you do are good just pay attention that the Mobil for witch you do it is also good :)

    #303538
    Frank4YAHWEH
    Participant

    Quote (journey42 @ June 21 2012,19:30)

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ June 21 2012,13:56)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 21 2012,13:09)

    Quote (Devolution @ June 20 2012,07:45)
    I like your humility Mike…
    I too need to examine myself because sometimes the spirit of love gets pushed aside by the spirit of frustration, and from there anger/pride etc sometimes swells up in me causing me to say the wrong things, and later when i reflect on my words….regret stings me!

    Thanks J42, we all need remember how important love is!

    Cheers.


    Hi Devo,

    You won't even believe how God used your post (and the following one from journey) to talk to me right here, and right now.

    I just logged in to HN, and started with this thread (since it was at the top of the list).  I went back to my last post (which was about 6 pages ago – even though it's only been a day :) ) and started reading forward – like I do each day.

    And the more “smart assed” comments I read, the more I was literally (and I mean LITERALLY) telling myself, “I'm done with all this.  I can't just go on trading smart assed comments with Frank, Nick, and the others, seeing who can come out on top as the “wittiest”, or the one with the smoothest put down.  God, I'm done doing this.  This is not love.”

    And then, about three pages into reading the thread, I saw your comment and journey's too.  You called me humble because of words I said to journey, words I didn't really act upon after saying them.  Your posts confirmed to me what I was saying in my head while reading – that I just can't keep playing this “one upmanship” game anymore.  

    And what's more, I was already thinking about this arrogant game many of us play on HN while I was at work today.  We had the radio playing, and the song Have You Never Been Mellow came on.  Some of the words hit home hard for me.  Words like “There was a time when I just HAD TO TELL MY POINT OF VIEW, I was like you”.  And the words, “Have you never let SOMEONE ELSE be strong?”

    I am firmly grounded in what I believe the scriptures teach.  But I have a habit of CRAMMING my understanding down the throats of those who have a different understanding.  I act as if MY WAY is the only possible way it could ever be.  It's like I have to shove my point of view in everyone's face.  I can't let them be right, no matter what.  I can't let them be “strong” by having the last word.

    Well, no more.  I'm done.

    I've heard that song a thousand times before, and many times at work the music just drones in the background.  But today, those words jumped out at me, and my thoughts went immediately to the way I behave on HN.  And then, just as I was telling myself enough is enough, I came across the posts from you and journey.  Maybe I'm just reading into simple coincidences, but it seems to me like God is trying to tell me something through others – or at the very least confirm what I was already thinking about.

    Anyway, I thank journey for her first post that got me thinking in the first place, and I thank you both for your comments.  Mostly, I thank God for all the wonderful things I have going for me in my life.  And with His help and support, you guys will be seeing a very different mikeboll64 around here from now on.

    peace,
    mike


    Mike,

    Praise Yahweh for that! How did it feel to get a taste of your own medicine? Left a proverbial bad taste in your mouth, did it not?  :;):

    Frank
    You cannot enter the kingdom of God unless you have love.  It will all be for nothing otherwise.  Hear Jesus's words.  They were mean't for you too.
    We are not supposed to use the scriptures to mock people, but edify them.
    Take care.

    John 13:35   By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.


    journey42,

    Where have you ever heard me say in this forum that I have ever hated anyone here? What it is that I hate is a lie as Scripture instructs me to do. One can not enter Yahweh's Kingdom by teaching doctrines of demons either. One is not supposed to use Father Yahweh's inspired prophetic word (Scripture) by twisting it to promote the lie that Yahshua pre-existed his birth as an actual being (as “God”, “a god”, or “an angel”) that was with his and our Father Yahweh in the beginning. This is most certainly not edifying people in the truth of Father Yahweh's word!

    Did Yahshua Create Or Pre-exist His Birth?

    “Jesus IS God!”?

    #303542
    Wakeup
    Participant

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ June 22 2012,12:07)

    Quote (journey42 @ June 21 2012,19:30)

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ June 21 2012,13:56)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 21 2012,13:09)

    Quote (Devolution @ June 20 2012,07:45)
    I like your humility Mike…
    I too need to examine myself because sometimes the spirit of love gets pushed aside by the spirit of frustration, and from there anger/pride etc sometimes swells up in me causing me to say the wrong things, and later when i reflect on my words….regret stings me!

    Thanks J42, we all need remember how important love is!

    Cheers.


    Hi Devo,

    You won't even believe how God used your post (and the following one from journey) to talk to me right here, and right now.

    I just logged in to HN, and started with this thread (since it was at the top of the list).  I went back to my last post (which was about 6 pages ago – even though it's only been a day :) ) and started reading forward – like I do each day.

    And the more “smart assed” comments I read, the more I was literally (and I mean LITERALLY) telling myself, “I'm done with all this.  I can't just go on trading smart assed comments with Frank, Nick, and the others, seeing who can come out on top as the “wittiest”, or the one with the smoothest put down.  God, I'm done doing this.  This is not love.”

    And then, about three pages into reading the thread, I saw your comment and journey's too.  You called me humble because of words I said to journey, words I didn't really act upon after saying them.  Your posts confirmed to me what I was saying in my head while reading – that I just can't keep playing this “one upmanship” game anymore.  

    And what's more, I was already thinking about this arrogant game many of us play on HN while I was at work today.  We had the radio playing, and the song Have You Never Been Mellow came on.  Some of the words hit home hard for me.  Words like “There was a time when I just HAD TO TELL MY POINT OF VIEW, I was like you”.  And the words, “Have you never let SOMEONE ELSE be strong?”

    I am firmly grounded in what I believe the scriptures teach.  But I have a habit of CRAMMING my understanding down the throats of those who have a different understanding.  I act as if MY WAY is the only possible way it could ever be.  It's like I have to shove my point of view in everyone's face.  I can't let them be right, no matter what.  I can't let them be “strong” by having the last word.

    Well, no more.  I'm done.

    I've heard that song a thousand times before, and many times at work the music just drones in the background.  But today, those words jumped out at me, and my thoughts went immediately to the way I behave on HN.  And then, just as I was telling myself enough is enough, I came across the posts from you and journey.  Maybe I'm just reading into simple coincidences, but it seems to me like God is trying to tell me something through others – or at the very least confirm what I was already thinking about.

    Anyway, I thank journey for her first post that got me thinking in the first place, and I thank you both for your comments.  Mostly, I thank God for all the wonderful things I have going for me in my life.  And with His help and support, you guys will be seeing a very different mikeboll64 around here from now on.

    peace,
    mike


    Mike,

    Praise Yahweh for that! How did it feel to get a taste of your own medicine? Left a proverbial bad taste in your mouth, did it not?  :;):

    Frank
    You cannot enter the kingdom of God unless you have love.  It will all be for nothing otherwise.  Hear Jesus's words.  They were mean't for you too.
    We are not supposed to use the scriptures to mock people, but edify them.
    Take care.

    John 13:35   By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.


    journey42,

    Where have you ever heard me say in this forum that I have ever hated anyone here? What it is that I hate is a lie as Scripture instructs me to do. One can not enter Yahweh's Kingdom by teaching doctrines of demons either. One is not supposed to use Father Yahweh's inspired prophetic word (Scripture) by twisting it to promote the lie that Yahshua pre-existed his birth as an actual being (as “God”, “a god”, or “an angel”) that was with his and our Father Yahweh in the beginning. This is most certainly not edifying people in the truth of Father Yahweh's word!

    Did Yahshua Create Or Pre-exist His Birth?

    “Jesus IS God!”?


    Frank4yahweh.

    Please concentrate:
    The word was FROM EVERLASTING.
    This same word was made flesh at birth,but he is still from everlasting.The changing into flesh has a beginning,the changing happened at birth. But he is still from everlasting for he is still the word of God.

    He is the bread that came down from heaven.He was with God in heaven from everlasting.
    Can you see what I am trying to say to you?

    wakeup.

    #303544
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi WU,
    The Son of Mary was born.
    He was reborn of the Spirit at the Jordan

    #303560
    Frank4YAHWEH
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ June 21 2012,16:54)

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ June 21 2012,08:50)

    Quote (kerwin @ June 21 2012,12:28)

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ June 21 2012,01:44)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 20 2012,13:20)

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ June 19 2012,20:15)
    And BTW, your “God of Luck” has nothing to do with Father Yahweh or His son Yahshua the Messiah that He promised to sent in this last time period. Again as always, you have been owned!


    No Frank,

    It is YOUR Jesus who was “lucky”.  Mine made a great sacrifice.  Yours won the best lottery ever imaginable.


    Mike,

    I'm not the one who hired a Latino immigrant to be my Messiah, you did!  :D


    Frank;

    You do not know what a name is.  If you did you would not make foolish comments like this one.

    “TheLordisSalvation is the Anointed” is the English translation of “Yoshua is the Messiah”.  The angel did not instruct Mary to name her son a bunch of meaningless noise but instead gave her a name with meaning.   English; and for that matter Greek; is an alien language to those whose first language is English.


    kerwin,

    FACT: “Jesus” was not the Messiah's GIVEN name! The name Yahshua means 'Yahweh is Redeemer'. The name “Jesus” most certainly does not in any way convey this meaning, does not signify Father Yahweh as our Supreme Redeemer and his and our Heavenly Father and Creator's Name in which Yahshua Messiah said that he came in.

    Neither is there redemption IN ANY OTHER: for there is NONE OTHER NAME under heaven GIVEN among men, whereby we MUST be redeemed (Acts 4:12).

    THE NAME JESUS


    Frank;

    You are confusing an apparent fact with a fact.  Fact: Yeshua's name is not a meaningless name as we often have in this age.  Jesus' name is TheLordIsSalvation that is translated to Hebrew as Yeshua and to Greek as Iesous.  Yeshua is just the Hebrew words that means TheLordisSalvation.  

    This is easy to understand as the people of that age valued meaning over letter.


    kerwin,

    The name Yeshua simply means 'he redeems' in Hebrew and does not signify Father Yahweh as our Supreme Redeemer and this name certainly does not mean “TheLordisSalvation”. This name was promoted in avoidance of pronouncing our Heavenly Father and Creator's name within Yahshua's name by the Jews:

    There Is Strength (Power, Authority) In The Name Yahweh (Micyah 4:5; Proverb 18:10)

    But if I say I'll never mention Yahweh or speak in His Name, His word burns in my heart like a fire. It's like a fire in my bones! I am worn out trying to hold it in! I can't do it! (Yeremyah 20:9)

    But to stop this thing from spreading any further among the people, we must warn these men to speak no longer to anyone in this name. Then they called them in again and commanded them not to speak or teach at all in the name of Yahshua. But Kepha and Yahchanan replied, “Judge for yourselves whether it is right in Yahweh's sight to obey you rather than Yahweh. For we cannot help speaking about what we have seen and heard.” After further threats they let them go. They could not decide how to punish them, because all the people were praising Yahweh for what had happened. For the man who was miraculously healed was over forty years old. On their release, Kepha and Yahchanan went back to their own people and reported all that the chief priests and elders had said to them. When they heard this, they raised their voices together in prayer to Yahweh. “Sovereign Yahweh,” they said, “You made the heaven and the earth and the sea, and everything in them. You spoke by the set apart Spirit through the mouth of Your servant, our father Dawid: “'Why do the nations rage and the peoples plot in vain? The kings of the earth take their stand and the rulers gather together against Yahweh and against His anointed one.' Indeed Herod and Pontius Pilate met together with the nations and the people of Ysryl in this city to conspire against Your set apart servant Yahshua, whom You anointed. They did what Your power and will had decided beforehand should happen. Now, Yahweh, consider their threats and enable your servants to speak Your word with great boldness. Stretch out Your hand to heal and perform miraculous signs and wonders through the name of Your set apart servant Yahshua.” After they had communed, the place where they were meeting was shaken. And they were all filled with the set apart Spirit and spoke the word of Yahweh boldly. All the believers were one in heart and mind. No one claimed that any of his possessions was his own, but they shared everything they had. With great power the apostles continued to testify to the resurrection of the Master Yahshua, and much favor was upon them all. There were no needy persons among them. For from time to time those who owned lands or houses sold them, brought the money from the sales and put it at the apostles' feet, and it was distributed to anyone as he had need. Yahseph, a Lewite from Cyprus, whom the apostles called Barnabas (which means Son of Encouragement), sold a field he owned and brought the money and put it at the apostles' feet. (Acts 4:17-37).

    The Name Yahweh

    #303561
    Frank4YAHWEH
    Participant

    Quote (Wakeup @ June 22 2012,12:25)

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ June 22 2012,12:07)

    Quote (journey42 @ June 21 2012,19:30)

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ June 21 2012,13:56)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 21 2012,13:09)

    Quote (Devolution @ June 20 2012,07:45)
    I like your humility Mike…
    I too need to examine myself because sometimes the spirit of love gets pushed aside by the spirit of frustration, and from there anger/pride etc sometimes swells up in me causing me to say the wrong things, and later when i reflect on my words….regret stings me!

    Thanks J42, we all need remember how important love is!

    Cheers.


    Hi Devo,

    You won't even believe how God used your post (and the following one from journey) to talk to me right here, and right now.

    I just logged in to HN, and started with this thread (since it was at the top of the list).  I went back to my last post (which was about 6 pages ago – even though it's only been a day :) ) and started reading forward – like I do each day.

    And the more “smart assed” comments I read, the more I was literally (and I mean LITERALLY) telling myself, “I'm done with all this.  I can't just go on trading smart assed comments with Frank, Nick, and the others, seeing who can come out on top as the “wittiest”, or the one with the smoothest put down.  God, I'm done doing this.  This is not love.”

    And then, about three pages into reading the thread, I saw your comment and journey's too.  You called me humble because of words I said to journey, words I didn't really act upon after saying them.  Your posts confirmed to me what I was saying in my head while reading – that I just can't keep playing this “one upmanship” game anymore.  

    And what's more, I was already thinking about this arrogant game many of us play on HN while I was at work today.  We had the radio playing, and the song Have You Never Been Mellow came on.  Some of the words hit home hard for me.  Words like “There was a time when I just HAD TO TELL MY POINT OF VIEW, I was like you”.  And the words, “Have you never let SOMEONE ELSE be strong?”

    I am firmly grounded in what I believe the scriptures teach.  But I have a habit of CRAMMING my understanding down the throats of those who have a different understanding.  I act as if MY WAY is the only possible way it could ever be.  It's like I have to shove my point of view in everyone's face.  I can't let them be right, no matter what.  I can't let them be “strong” by having the last word.

    Well, no more.  I'm done.

    I've heard that song a thousand times before, and many times at work the music just drones in the background.  But today, those words jumped out at me, and my thoughts went immediately to the way I behave on HN.  And then, just as I was telling myself enough is enough, I came across the posts from you and journey.  Maybe I'm just reading into simple coincidences, but it seems to me like God is trying to tell me something through others – or at the very least confirm what I was already thinking about.

    Anyway, I thank journey for her first post that got me thinking in the first place, and I thank you both for your comments.  Mostly, I thank God for all the wonderful things I have going for me in my life.  And with His help and support, you guys will be seeing a very different mikeboll64 around here from now on.

    peace,
    mike


    Mike,

    Praise Yahweh for that! How did it feel to get a taste of your own medicine? Left a proverbial bad taste in your mouth, did it not?  :;):

    Frank
    You cannot enter the kingdom of God unless you have love.  It will all be for nothing otherwise.  Hear Jesus's words.  They were mean't for you too.
    We are not supposed to use the scriptures to mock people, but edify them.
    Take care.

    John 13:35   By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.


    journey42,

    Where have you ever heard me say in this forum that I have ever hated anyone here? What it is that I hate is a lie as Scripture instructs me to do. One can not enter Yahweh's Kingdom by teaching doctrines of demons either. One is not supposed to use Father Yahweh's inspired prophetic word (Scripture) by twisting it to promote the lie that Yahshua pre-existed his birth as an actual being (as “God”, “a god”, or “an angel”) that was with his and our Father Yahweh in the beginning. This is most certainly not edifying people in the truth of Father Yahweh's word!

    Did Yahshua Create Or Pre-exist His Birth?

    “Jesus IS God!”?


    Frank4yahweh.

    Please concentrate:
    The word was FROM EVERLASTING.
    This same word was made flesh at birth,but he is still from everlasting.The changing into flesh has a beginning,the changing happened at birth. But he is still from everlasting for he is still the word of God.

    He is the bread that came down from heaven.He was with God in heaven from everlasting.
    Can you see what I am trying to say to you?

    wakeup.


    Wakeup,

    PLEASE WAKE UP! Father Yahweh's word is not a separate being apart from Himself! Can you not SEE (PERCEIVE, UNDERSTAND) what I am trying to say to you? ???

    Did Yahshua Create Or Pre-exist His Birth?

    “Jesus IS God!”?

    #303562
    kerwin
    Participant

    Frank;

    It is written:

    Luke 1:31
    King James Version (KJV)

    31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name Jesus.

    If the angel had spoken English then Miriam? would have heard  “And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name TheLordIsSalvation”.  

    I am not even sure Mary is a Hebrew name; while it is written that Joseph took her and Jesus down to Egypt; where the city of Alexandria was the home of many Hellenized Jews; who had forgotten their native tongue.  She may also have had a Roman name as a citizen of said empire.  

    I believe the name means “wished for child” as the inheritance to David's throne comes through her.  Mary on the other hand is said to be a Latin name; though it may appear in other languages as well.

    #303578
    Wakeup
    Participant

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 22 2012,12:29)
    Hi WU,
    The Son of Mary was born.
    He was reborn of the Spirit at the Jordan


    Nick.

    Jesus was not reborn at the jordan.
    He is the word of God,he was without sin.
    he was just following the law to be babtised like his brethren.

    He died with all the sins of the world,and then reborn at the resurrection,for he was a righteous man following his fathers will to death.
    so will we also if we follow the Father.

    wakeup.

    #303580
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi WU,
    Indeed the man Jesus was found sinless at the Jordan and fit for infilling by the Spirit-by obedience to the Law

    #303600
    Ed J
    Participant

    Quote (journey42 @ June 21 2012,18:48)

    Quote (Ed J @ June 21 2012,02:12)

    Quote (Devolution @ June 21 2012,00:45)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 16 2012,09:27)

    Quote (journey42 @ June 15 2012,08:41)
    If we correct one, we do it in love, not with conceit or harsh words.  We don't want to knock our brothers over, but build them up. Nor do we stalk them. If we have tried to explain and there is no positive outcome, then arguing back and forth does not profit.  It looks silly and childish, and does not benefit anyone.  So there is a spirit of truth out there, and Christ will use, whosoever he chooses to help nudge the lost away from false teachings. Modern day apostles, who have no church, or books to protect, just the truth and a hunger to share this wonderful kingdom thats coming with others.  

    I do not see much brotherly love here, and this lack of love and pride is what is blocking most from receiving the holy spirit.  It's as simple as that.  Pray everyone for your pride to be taken away.  Really pray, because you will not enter the kingdom of heaven until you get this poison out of you, and I will be on guard for my own soul too.


    I recognize myself as being described by your words, journey.  It stings, but I humbly accept your rebuke and will pray for myself as instructed.


    I like your humility Mike…
    I too need to examine myself because sometimes the spirit of love gets pushed aside by the spirit of frustration, and from there anger/pride etc sometimes swells up in me causing me to say the wrong things, and later when i reflect on my words….regret stings me!

    Thanks J42, we all need remember how important love is!

    Cheers.


    Hi Georgie and Devolution,

    I hope you are both referring to (this thread here).

    Your brother
    in Christ, Jesus.
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    holycitybiblecode.org


    Hi Ed

    If you feel that I have not shown love to you, I apologise.
    I have not run away, but I gave you explanations, and then you  demanded I answer what I already explained.  I have even learn't something more from Devo's post than what I knew.
    So if we go back and forth over the same things over and over, then will not the others think we are mad?  There are about 5 witnesses so far testifying that  they do not recognise the truth in your words on that particular subject.  You are so sure you are right, and cannot be moved.  You have made snarly little comments here and there to push my buttons, but I refuse to let you, so I go away for a while.  Not because I can't answer, because I want you to cool down.  Get rid of this pride Ed.  Empty out everything you have been taught, and start again.  I say this for your own salvation and for the sake of the truth, because you write books and will be accountable for distorting the truth.  Your soul is so precious, don't loose it for the sake of pride.  Admit sometimes when you are wrong.  Don't just ignore it.  You have been corrected many times, and just disappear with no acknowledgement or come back and then start saying the bible is worded wrong.   You are a grown man, not a child.  Agree to disagree once in a while.  Don't jam it down our throats what you believe, because we all have our own walk with the Lord, and we have brains, and we can study and discern if something doesn't fit into the doctrine we learned straight from the holy book.  So be fair ok.  Don't mock me and then end it with God bless.  It feels twisted.  I speak the truth to you.  I want to see you grow Ed, not stumble.


    Hi Georgie,

    Stating you ran away was not a snarly little comment but a fact and truth. Just because
    you said all you could say on the subject, does not mean this was the case with me as well.

    I have posted even more facts pointing my towards conclusion being the correct interpretation.
    I'm waiting for you to consider this additional information of our closer look into fulfilled prophecy.

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

    #303602
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 22 2012,19:29)
    Hi WU,
    The Son of Mary was born.
    He was reborn of the Spirit at the Jordan


    :D :D :D

    #303607
    jammin
    Participant

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 22 2012,13:42)
    Hi WU,
    Indeed the man Jesus was found sinless at the Jordan and fit for infilling by the Spirit-by obedience to the Law


    so before at the jordan, he is not sinless?

    is that what you mean?

    #303624
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi Jammin,
    Children are covered by the parent's faith and from the time he was old enough to be about his Father's business he never sinned.
    His Father's written word guided him and he was perfected.
    He proved the Law was effective.

    #303672
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Nick, Ed, and All,

    How many dwelled on earth, among mankind, with the glory of God's only begotten Son?

    I count only one: Jesus.

    Were there others?

    #303673
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi MB,
    Will you not share that glory?

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