John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 8,221 through 8,240 (of 26,009 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #303401
    Frank4YAHWEH
    Participant

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 21 2012,09:17)
    Hi Frank,
    Many still travel over land and sea to to make proselytes and leave them in a worse state than before.


    BYE NICK! :D

    #303402
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi Frank,
    If we lack in righteous knowledge where does that leave you?

    #303403
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi Franklin,
    Do you see yourself as an anointed and appointed teacher?

    #303404
    Frank4YAHWEH
    Participant

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 21 2012,10:25)
    Hi Franklin,
    Do you see yourself as an anointed and appointed teacher?


    BYE NICK! I am most definitely through with you! Get an education! PLEASE! :D

    #303407
    jammin
    Participant

    nick and edj,

    go to school. are you squatters?

    #303408
    jammin
    Participant

    ed

    make your own version

    you do not believe what the bible says. you just want your opinion to be accpted by men.

    study hard boy LOL

    #303409
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ June 21 2012,01:44)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 20 2012,13:20)

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ June 19 2012,20:15)
    And BTW, your “God of Luck” has nothing to do with Father Yahweh or His son Yahshua the Messiah that He promised to sent in this last time period. Again as always, you have been owned!


    No Frank,

    It is YOUR Jesus who was “lucky”.  Mine made a great sacrifice.  Yours won the best lottery ever imaginable.


    Mike,

    I'm not the one who hired a Latino immigrant to be my Messiah, you did!  :D


    Frank;

    You do not know what a name is. If you did you would not make foolish comments like this one.

    “TheLordisSalvation is the Anointed” is the English translation of “Yoshua is the Messiah”. The angel did not instruct Mary to name her son a bunch of meaningless noise but instead gave her a name with meaning. English; and for that matter Greek; is an alien language to those whose first language is English.

    #303410
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (Devolution @ June 20 2012,07:45)
    I like your humility Mike…
    I too need to examine myself because sometimes the spirit of love gets pushed aside by the spirit of frustration, and from there anger/pride etc sometimes swells up in me causing me to say the wrong things, and later when i reflect on my words….regret stings me!

    Thanks J42, we all need remember how important love is!

    Cheers.


    Hi Devo,

    You won't even believe how God used your post (and the following one from journey) to talk to me right here, and right now.

    I just logged in to HN, and started with this thread (since it was at the top of the list).  I went back to my last post (which was about 6 pages ago – even though it's only been a day :) ) and started reading forward – like I do each day.

    And the more “smart assed” comments I read, the more I was literally (and I mean LITERALLY) telling myself, “I'm done with all this.  I can't just go on trading smart assed comments with Frank, Nick, and the others, seeing who can come out on top as the “wittiest”, or the one with the smoothest put down.  God, I'm done doing this.  This is not love.”

    And then, about three pages into reading the thread, I saw your comment and journey's too.  You called me humble because of words I said to journey, words I didn't really act upon after saying them.  Your posts confirmed to me what I was saying in my head while reading – that I just can't keep playing this “one upmanship” game anymore.  

    And what's more, I was already thinking about this arrogant game many of us play on HN while I was at work today.  We had the radio playing, and the song Have You Never Been Mellow came on.  Some of the words hit home hard for me.  Words like “There was a time when I just HAD TO TELL MY POINT OF VIEW, I was like you”.  And the words, “Have you never let SOMEONE ELSE be strong?”

    I am firmly grounded in what I believe the scriptures teach.  But I have a habit of CRAMMING my understanding down the throats of those who have a different understanding.  I act as if MY WAY is the only possible way it could ever be.  It's like I have to shove my point of view in everyone's face.  I can't let them be right, no matter what.  I can't let them be “strong” by having the last word.

    Well, no more.  I'm done.

    I've heard that song a thousand times before, and many times at work the music just drones in the background.  But today, those words jumped out at me, and my thoughts went immediately to the way I behave on HN.  And then, just as I was telling myself enough is enough, I came across the posts from you and journey.  Maybe I'm just reading into simple coincidences, but it seems to me like God is trying to tell me something through others – or at the very least confirm what I was already thinking about.

    Anyway, I thank journey for her first post that got me thinking in the first place, and I thank you both for your comments.  Mostly, I thank God for all the wonderful things I have going for me in my life.  And with His help and support, you guys will be seeing a very different mikeboll64 around here from now on.

    peace,
    mike

    #303411
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (Ed J @ June 19 2012,22:18)
    Hi Mike: I hate to burst your bubble, but this verse
                 says Jesus didn't take the form of an Angel:

    “For verily he took not on him the nature [as in the form of]
    angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.” (Hebrews 2:16)
    Paraphrase: He didn't become an angel, but of the seed of Abraham.

    God bless
    Ed J


    Hi Ed,

    I agree that there are definitely scriptures that seem to distinguish Jesus from “the angels”.  But there are scriptures, that to me, say he is an angel of God. (1 Thess 4:16, Gal 4:14)

    And there are scriptures that can be taken one of two ways, such as Heb 1:5.   It could be asking WHICH ONE of the angels did God say those words to (the answer being “Jesus”), or it could be implying that God has never said those words to an angel.

    The bottom line for me is the very meaning of the English word “angel” – as I understand it.  I understand that English translators render human messengers of God as “messenger”, and spirit messengers of God as “angels”.  If this is the case, then Rev 1:1 confirms that Jesus is an “angel” of God, for he is a spirit being now, and delivering a message from God to John.

    I do understand how you can see it your way though, and cannot fault your understanding based on the scriptures you've posted.

    #303414
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 21 2012,20:23)

    Quote (Ed J @ June 19 2012,22:18)
    Hi Mike: I hate to burst your bubble, but this verse
                 says Jesus didn't take the form of an Angel:

    “For verily he took not on him the nature [as in the form of]
    angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.” (Hebrews 2:16)
    Paraphrase: He didn't become an angel, but of the seed of Abraham.

    God bless
    Ed J


    Hi Ed,

    I agree that there are definitely scriptures that seem to distinguish Jesus from “the angels”.  But there are scriptures, that to me, say he is an angel of God. (1 Thess 4:16, Gal 4:14)

    And there are scriptures that can be taken one of two ways, such as Heb 1:5.   It could be asking WHICH ONE of the angels did God say those words to (the answer being “Jesus”), or it could be implying that God has never said those words to an angel.

    The bottom line for me is the very meaning of the English word “angel” – as I understand it.  I understand that English translators render human messengers of God as “messenger”, and spirit messengers of God as “angels”.  If this is the case, then Rev 1:1 confirms that Jesus is an “angel” of God, for he is a spirit being now, and delivering a message from God to John.

    I do understand how you can see it your way though, and cannot fault your understanding based on the scriptures you've posted.


    Mike

    You should think this way ,in the temple of Solomon ,their were many priests but not all were high priest ,

    I think it is so in heaven ,no one can for sure say what really his an angel I mean what is his nature compere to God and Christ ,

    But it is true that all of creation are messengers to each other ,so his the love of God,

    Now to be true to scriptures is normal to search for truth is also normal ,searching for lies no one in his right mind would do a thing like that,

    Wanting to fight for the truth of God this is what the apostles did ,because it would reflect on the next generation of believers ,

    But fighting to whom is not willing to see truth wen it is presented ,this should not happen or should be limited to one or tree views ,

    Sins we all have to stand for our live ,sharing that's all what we do,

    Talk to me wen you feel sad, :)

    #303415
    Frank4YAHWEH
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ June 21 2012,12:28)

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ June 21 2012,01:44)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 20 2012,13:20)

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ June 19 2012,20:15)
    And BTW, your “God of Luck” has nothing to do with Father Yahweh or His son Yahshua the Messiah that He promised to sent in this last time period. Again as always, you have been owned!


    No Frank,

    It is YOUR Jesus who was “lucky”.  Mine made a great sacrifice.  Yours won the best lottery ever imaginable.


    Mike,

    I'm not the one who hired a Latino immigrant to be my Messiah, you did!  :D


    Frank;

    You do not know what a name is.  If you did you would not make foolish comments like this one.

    “TheLordisSalvation is the Anointed” is the English translation of “Yoshua is the Messiah”.  The angel did not instruct Mary to name her son a bunch of meaningless noise but instead gave her a name with meaning.   English; and for that matter Greek; is an alien language to those whose first language is English.


    kerwin,

    FACT: “Jesus” was not the Messiah's GIVEN name! The name Yahshua means 'Yahweh is Redeemer'. The name “Jesus” most certainly does not in any way convey this meaning, does not signify Father Yahweh as our Supreme Redeemer and his and our Heavenly Father and Creator's Name in which Yahshua Messiah said that he came in.

    Neither is there redemption IN ANY OTHER: for there is NONE OTHER NAME under heaven GIVEN among men, whereby we MUST be redeemed (Acts 4:12).

    THE NAME JESUS

    #303417
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi MB,
    Heb 1 in context clearly demarcates the son of God from the angels.

    #303418
    Frank4YAHWEH
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 21 2012,13:09)

    Quote (Devolution @ June 20 2012,07:45)
    I like your humility Mike…
    I too need to examine myself because sometimes the spirit of love gets pushed aside by the spirit of frustration, and from there anger/pride etc sometimes swells up in me causing me to say the wrong things, and later when i reflect on my words….regret stings me!

    Thanks J42, we all need remember how important love is!

    Cheers.


    Hi Devo,

    You won't even believe how God used your post (and the following one from journey) to talk to me right here, and right now.

    I just logged in to HN, and started with this thread (since it was at the top of the list).  I went back to my last post (which was about 6 pages ago – even though it's only been a day :) ) and started reading forward – like I do each day.

    And the more “smart assed” comments I read, the more I was literally (and I mean LITERALLY) telling myself, “I'm done with all this.  I can't just go on trading smart assed comments with Frank, Nick, and the others, seeing who can come out on top as the “wittiest”, or the one with the smoothest put down.  God, I'm done doing this.  This is not love.”

    And then, about three pages into reading the thread, I saw your comment and journey's too.  You called me humble because of words I said to journey, words I didn't really act upon after saying them.  Your posts confirmed to me what I was saying in my head while reading – that I just can't keep playing this “one upmanship” game anymore.  

    And what's more, I was already thinking about this arrogant game many of us play on HN while I was at work today.  We had the radio playing, and the song Have You Never Been Mellow came on.  Some of the words hit home hard for me.  Words like “There was a time when I just HAD TO TELL MY POINT OF VIEW, I was like you”.  And the words, “Have you never let SOMEONE ELSE be strong?”

    I am firmly grounded in what I believe the scriptures teach.  But I have a habit of CRAMMING my understanding down the throats of those who have a different understanding.  I act as if MY WAY is the only possible way it could ever be.  It's like I have to shove my point of view in everyone's face.  I can't let them be right, no matter what.  I can't let them be “strong” by having the last word.

    Well, no more.  I'm done.

    I've heard that song a thousand times before, and many times at work the music just drones in the background.  But today, those words jumped out at me, and my thoughts went immediately to the way I behave on HN.  And then, just as I was telling myself enough is enough, I came across the posts from you and journey.  Maybe I'm just reading into simple coincidences, but it seems to me like God is trying to tell me something through others – or at the very least confirm what I was already thinking about.

    Anyway, I thank journey for her first post that got me thinking in the first place, and I thank you both for your comments.  Mostly, I thank God for all the wonderful things I have going for me in my life.  And with His help and support, you guys will be seeing a very different mikeboll64 around here from now on.

    peace,
    mike


    Mike,

    Praise Yahweh for that! How did it feel to get a taste of your own medicine? Left a proverbial bad taste in your mouth, did it not? :;):

    #303419
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi Frank,
    Is that how you like to be treated?

    #303420
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ June 21 2012,20:50)

    Quote (kerwin @ June 21 2012,12:28)

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ June 21 2012,01:44)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 20 2012,13:20)

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ June 19 2012,20:15)
    And BTW, your “God of Luck” has nothing to do with Father Yahweh or His son Yahshua the Messiah that He promised to sent in this last time period. Again as always, you have been owned!


    No Frank,

    It is YOUR Jesus who was “lucky”.  Mine made a great sacrifice.  Yours won the best lottery ever imaginable.


    Mike,

    I'm not the one who hired a Latino immigrant to be my Messiah, you did!  :D


    Frank;

    You do not know what a name is.  If you did you would not make foolish comments like this one.

    “TheLordisSalvation is the Anointed” is the English translation of “Yoshua is the Messiah”.  The angel did not instruct Mary to name her son a bunch of meaningless noise but instead gave her a name with meaning.   English; and for that matter Greek; is an alien language to those whose first language is English.


    kerwin,

    FACT: “Jesus” was not the Messiah's GIVEN name! The name Yahshua means 'Yahweh is Redeemer'. The name “Jesus” most certainly does not in any way convey this meaning, does not signify Father Yahweh as our Supreme Redeemer and his and our Heavenly Father and Creator's Name in which Yahshua Messiah said that he came in.

    Neither is there redemption IN ANY OTHER: for there is NONE OTHER NAME under heaven GIVEN among men, whereby we MUST be redeemed (Acts 4:12).

    THE NAME JESUS


    The son of God ,will do

    #303429
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ June 21 2012,08:50)

    Quote (kerwin @ June 21 2012,12:28)

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ June 21 2012,01:44)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 20 2012,13:20)

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ June 19 2012,20:15)
    And BTW, your “God of Luck” has nothing to do with Father Yahweh or His son Yahshua the Messiah that He promised to sent in this last time period. Again as always, you have been owned!


    No Frank,

    It is YOUR Jesus who was “lucky”.  Mine made a great sacrifice.  Yours won the best lottery ever imaginable.


    Mike,

    I'm not the one who hired a Latino immigrant to be my Messiah, you did!  :D


    Frank;

    You do not know what a name is.  If you did you would not make foolish comments like this one.

    “TheLordisSalvation is the Anointed” is the English translation of “Yoshua is the Messiah”.  The angel did not instruct Mary to name her son a bunch of meaningless noise but instead gave her a name with meaning.   English; and for that matter Greek; is an alien language to those whose first language is English.


    kerwin,

    FACT: “Jesus” was not the Messiah's GIVEN name! The name Yahshua means 'Yahweh is Redeemer'. The name “Jesus” most certainly does not in any way convey this meaning, does not signify Father Yahweh as our Supreme Redeemer and his and our Heavenly Father and Creator's Name in which Yahshua Messiah said that he came in.

    Neither is there redemption IN ANY OTHER: for there is NONE OTHER NAME under heaven GIVEN among men, whereby we MUST be redeemed (Acts 4:12).

    THE NAME JESUS


    Frank;

    You are confusing an apparent fact with a fact.  Fact: Yeshua's name is not a meaningless name as we often have in this age.  Jesus' name is TheLordIsSalvation that is translated to Hebrew as Yeshua and to Greek as Iesous.  Yeshua is just the Hebrew words that means TheLordisSalvation.  

    This is easy to understand as the people of that age valued meaning over letter.

    #303430
    journey42
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 21 2012,13:09)

    Quote (Devolution @ June 20 2012,07:45)
    I like your humility Mike…
    I too need to examine myself because sometimes the spirit of love gets pushed aside by the spirit of frustration, and from there anger/pride etc sometimes swells up in me causing me to say the wrong things, and later when i reflect on my words….regret stings me!

    Thanks J42, we all need remember how important love is!

    Cheers.


    Hi Devo,

    You won't even believe how God used your post (and the following one from journey) to talk to me right here, and right now.

    I just logged in to HN, and started with this thread (since it was at the top of the list).  I went back to my last post (which was about 6 pages ago – even though it's only been a day :) ) and started reading forward – like I do each day.

    And the more “smart assed” comments I read, the more I was literally (and I mean LITERALLY) telling myself, “I'm done with all this.  I can't just go on trading smart assed comments with Frank, Nick, and the others, seeing who can come out on top as the “wittiest”, or the one with the smoothest put down.  God, I'm done doing this.  This is not love.”

    And then, about three pages into reading the thread, I saw your comment and journey's too.  You called me humble because of words I said to journey, words I didn't really act upon after saying them.  Your posts confirmed to me what I was saying in my head while reading – that I just can't keep playing this “one upmanship” game anymore.  

    And what's more, I was already thinking about this arrogant game many of us play on HN while I was at work today.  We had the radio playing, and the song Have You Never Been Mellow came on.  Some of the words hit home hard for me.  Words like “There was a time when I just HAD TO TELL MY POINT OF VIEW, I was like you”.  And the words, “Have you never let SOMEONE ELSE be strong?”

    I am firmly grounded in what I believe the scriptures teach.  But I have a habit of CRAMMING my understanding down the throats of those who have a different understanding.  I act as if MY WAY is the only possible way it could ever be.  It's like I have to shove my point of view in everyone's face.  I can't let them be right, no matter what.  I can't let them be “strong” by having the last word.

    Well, no more.  I'm done.

    I've heard that song a thousand times before, and many times at work the music just drones in the background.  But today, those words jumped out at me, and my thoughts went immediately to the way I behave on HN.  And then, just as I was telling myself enough is enough, I came across the posts from you and journey.  Maybe I'm just reading into simple coincidences, but it seems to me like God is trying to tell me something through others – or at the very least confirm what I was already thinking about.

    Anyway, I thank journey for her first post that got me thinking in the first place, and I thank you both for your comments.  Mostly, I thank God for all the wonderful things I have going for me in my life.  And with His help and support, you guys will be seeing a very different mikeboll64 around here from now on.

    peace,
    mike


    Hi Mike

    God bless.
    God works in mysterious ways!  And it's all for our benefit.  I love your honesty.  This is what we all need to be like.  If we listen to God, his instructions, then we are his children.  We can only grow from there, and not be stunted, because we have all this wonderful information in the word revealed to us, such a privilege an honour that the veil is taken off our faces, and we can see right to the core of our Father and Lord Jesus, and that love was given to us freely, and love, we should give back.

    The enemy will use people to get to us, he knows our weaknesses and will aim his fiery dart right to that spot.  Love covers a multiple of sins….this says a lot.  If we have love, then we have a chance for the holy spirit to dwell inside, but without love, it can't enter.
    And imagine how much will be revealed once the Holy Spirit resides?  There will be no end to learning.  Knowledge will increase.  Things will make more sense.

    Revelation 3:19   As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.

    Proverbs 9:7   He that reproveth a scorner getteth to himself shame: and he that rebuketh a wicked man getteth himself a blot.
    Proverbs 9:8   Reprove not a scorner, lest he hate thee: rebuke a wise man, and he will love thee.

    Proverbs 13:1   A wise son heareth his father's instruction: but a scorner heareth not rebuke.

    #303431
    journey42
    Participant

    Quote (Ed J @ June 21 2012,02:12)

    Quote (Devolution @ June 21 2012,00:45)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 16 2012,09:27)

    Quote (journey42 @ June 15 2012,08:41)
    If we correct one, we do it in love, not with conceit or harsh words.  We don't want to knock our brothers over, but build them up. Nor do we stalk them. If we have tried to explain and there is no positive outcome, then arguing back and forth does not profit.  It looks silly and childish, and does not benefit anyone.  So there is a spirit of truth out there, and Christ will use, whosoever he chooses to help nudge the lost away from false teachings. Modern day apostles, who have no church, or books to protect, just the truth and a hunger to share this wonderful kingdom thats coming with others.  

    I do not see much brotherly love here, and this lack of love and pride is what is blocking most from receiving the holy spirit.  It's as simple as that.  Pray everyone for your pride to be taken away.  Really pray, because you will not enter the kingdom of heaven until you get this poison out of you, and I will be on guard for my own soul too.


    I recognize myself as being described by your words, journey.  It stings, but I humbly accept your rebuke and will pray for myself as instructed.


    I like your humility Mike…
    I too need to examine myself because sometimes the spirit of love gets pushed aside by the spirit of frustration, and from there anger/pride etc sometimes swells up in me causing me to say the wrong things, and later when i reflect on my words….regret stings me!

    Thanks J42, we all need remember how important love is!

    Cheers.


    Hi Georgie and Devolution,

    I hope you are both referring to (this thread here).

    Your brother
    in Christ, Jesus.
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    holycitybiblecode.org


    Hi Ed

    If you feel that I have not shown love to you, I apologise.
    I have not run away, but I gave you explanations, and then you  demanded I answer what I already explained.  I have even learn't something more from Devo's post than what I knew.
    So if we go back and forth over the same things over and over, then will not the others think we are mad?  There are about 5 witnesses so far testifying that  they do not recognise the truth in your words on that particular subject.  You are so sure you are right, and cannot be moved.  You have made snarly little comments here and there to push my buttons, but I refuse to let you, so I go away for a while.  Not because I can't answer, because I want you to cool down.  Get rid of this pride Ed.  Empty out everything you have been taught, and start again.  I say this for your own salvation and for the sake of the truth, because you write books and will be accountable for distorting the truth.  Your soul is so precious, don't loose it for the sake of pride.  Admit sometimes when you are wrong.  Don't just ignore it.  You have been corrected many times, and just disappear with no acknowledgement or come back and then start saying the bible is worded wrong.   You are a grown man, not a child.  Agree to disagree once in a while.  Don't jam it down our throats what you believe, because we all have our own walk with the Lord, and we have brains, and we can study and discern if something doesn't fit into the doctrine we learned straight from the holy book.  So be fair ok.  Don't mock me and then end it with God bless.  It feels twisted.  I speak the truth to you. I want to see you grow Ed, not stumble.

    #303432
    journey42
    Participant

    Quote (Samuel @ June 21 2012,04:38)
    I can see how this scripture could lead one to believe in the Oneness Religion.

    One GOD.

    All I know is you lose all your faith, when you were growing up all you had hammered in your head was the Trinity Belief, and then go to a church that tells you, “Your wrong, Your serving three GODS”.  

    You “Foundation” pretty much gets washed out from underneath you.   And, you have to start all over.  I mean, you can't just “Hop over to another religion” and “Convert”.  At least, it was a very confusing experience for me.

    And, as it is written GOD is not the author of confusion.  So, I don't know what happened.  

    I guess I should have just converted, and been done with it.  Maybe I'd of stayed in church.  I am a firm believer that you NEED to go to church.   I mean how are you going to let “This little light of mine, shine?”  if you just stay at home, and/or don't go out talking to other people in the world?

    I am horrible with people, absolutely 100% horrible.  But, when I have the spirit of GOD in me, and working through me.  It does a lot better job then I ever could.


    Hi Samuel

    You are right, God is not the author of confusion, but man is.  Rejoice that your eyes were opened, for the Lord showed you something because he saw something in you that was searching.  Think of church as a stepping stone.  Knowing what others teach can make us look into the scriptures to see if they are correct.  If they made a mistake, and you realised it, then you learn't something. God revealed something to you. That's how he works, revealing, revealing, step by step.

    Regarding the bi-polar.  Don't trust everything the doctors say.  My friend was diagnosed with it 10 years ago, and they put her on all this medication, and lithium and she justified every time she had a melt down.  Ooh it's ok, I'm allowed to behave this way because I've got bi-polar.  I'll just lock myself into a room and ignore all around me for a few days. See ya latter kiddies, daddy will have to look after you now.

    Well about 3 months ago, the doctors did some extensive testing, and guess what?  It wasn't bi-polar all along.  It had something to do with an overactive or under active thyroid gland.  The medication was making her sick in the head.  They weaned her off that medication slowly and she hasn't had one single melt down since.   Her brain is now telling her the truth, I'm not bi-polar, and I don't have an excuse to behave like this anymore. She's all good now and more mature to handle problems in a better way.

    We all get down from time to time.  It's this world.  We feel like we don't fit in because we are a strange people who believe in a saviour whereas the world doesn't.  We see and feel all the hate around us.  But theres a promise, and Christ is going to change it, and we want to be with him when he does make dramatic changes… to witness this remarkable event that's around the corner and have him on our side is something to really look forward to.

    When the spirit heals, the body will too.  Read Samuel.  God wants to speak to you.  Go straight to his word.  You are not alone.  Most of us here don't go to church, because the church is in us, wherever we go.  God will provide a christian friend for you.  a true one, or maybe two.
    God bless.

    #303433
    journey42
    Participant

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ June 21 2012,13:56)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 21 2012,13:09)

    Quote (Devolution @ June 20 2012,07:45)
    I like your humility Mike…
    I too need to examine myself because sometimes the spirit of love gets pushed aside by the spirit of frustration, and from there anger/pride etc sometimes swells up in me causing me to say the wrong things, and later when i reflect on my words….regret stings me!

    Thanks J42, we all need remember how important love is!

    Cheers.


    Hi Devo,

    You won't even believe how God used your post (and the following one from journey) to talk to me right here, and right now.

    I just logged in to HN, and started with this thread (since it was at the top of the list).  I went back to my last post (which was about 6 pages ago – even though it's only been a day :) ) and started reading forward – like I do each day.

    And the more “smart assed” comments I read, the more I was literally (and I mean LITERALLY) telling myself, “I'm done with all this.  I can't just go on trading smart assed comments with Frank, Nick, and the others, seeing who can come out on top as the “wittiest”, or the one with the smoothest put down.  God, I'm done doing this.  This is not love.”

    And then, about three pages into reading the thread, I saw your comment and journey's too.  You called me humble because of words I said to journey, words I didn't really act upon after saying them.  Your posts confirmed to me what I was saying in my head while reading – that I just can't keep playing this “one upmanship” game anymore.  

    And what's more, I was already thinking about this arrogant game many of us play on HN while I was at work today.  We had the radio playing, and the song Have You Never Been Mellow came on.  Some of the words hit home hard for me.  Words like “There was a time when I just HAD TO TELL MY POINT OF VIEW, I was like you”.  And the words, “Have you never let SOMEONE ELSE be strong?”

    I am firmly grounded in what I believe the scriptures teach.  But I have a habit of CRAMMING my understanding down the throats of those who have a different understanding.  I act as if MY WAY is the only possible way it could ever be.  It's like I have to shove my point of view in everyone's face.  I can't let them be right, no matter what.  I can't let them be “strong” by having the last word.

    Well, no more.  I'm done.

    I've heard that song a thousand times before, and many times at work the music just drones in the background.  But today, those words jumped out at me, and my thoughts went immediately to the way I behave on HN.  And then, just as I was telling myself enough is enough, I came across the posts from you and journey.  Maybe I'm just reading into simple coincidences, but it seems to me like God is trying to tell me something through others – or at the very least confirm what I was already thinking about.

    Anyway, I thank journey for her first post that got me thinking in the first place, and I thank you both for your comments.  Mostly, I thank God for all the wonderful things I have going for me in my life.  And with His help and support, you guys will be seeing a very different mikeboll64 around here from now on.

    peace,
    mike


    Mike,

    Praise Yahweh for that! How did it feel to get a taste of your own medicine? Left a proverbial bad taste in your mouth, did it not?  :;):

    Frank
    You cannot enter the kingdom of God unless you have love.  It will all be for nothing otherwise.  Hear Jesus's words.  They were mean't for you too.
    We are not supposed to use the scriptures to mock people, but edify them.
    Take care.

    John 13:35   By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.

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