John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 721 through 740 (of 25,995 total)
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  • #64962
    Mr. Steve
    Participant

    CB;

    Remember verse 2 “The 'same' was in the beginning with God” God's word is always with him and is his very essence. When the scripture say the same was in the beginning with God the scripture makes it clear that God's word is inextricably part of God himself, they cannot be severed, only distinguished. His word will never pass away because he cannot passaway. He is God. This word was made flesh in the Son of God who came in the flesh.

    Steven

    #64966
    Mr. Steve
    Participant

    Charity;

    Thank you for your kind words. May the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ guard and protect you and keep you until the coming of our Lord blameless in him. All glory and honor and praise to him.

    Steven

    #64983
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Mr. Steve……I totally agree with you that Jesus himself is not the word, but he spoke God's words to us. Just look at all the scriptures that plaimly shoud this point. Jesus said in many places the words He spoke weren't his but the words of the one who sent him. Jesus said the (Words) he was speaking were (Spirit) and (Life). Trinitarians have to ignore the many scriptures that show there wrong, we need to take all the scriptures to get the true perspectives and if you do you will find the trinity has no leg to stand on. That is why I always go the the simple statement of Jesus “For (THOU) art the (ONLY) true (GOD) and like i said when Jesus said thou he wasent talking about his self either. And the word (ONLY) means no other at least thats what it meant when i went to school. Why are they argueing over the same thing when it is clearfied in so many plain scriptures through out the bible. The Word is the Seed of God, and like it says the kingdom of God is like a man who sowed seed in his filed (HEART) and went about his normal business and the word (seed) took root and begain to grow, first a blade them the head apears them the full grain and is then harvested. God word does all this when it is sowen into our Hearts and we don't even know how it does it, just like it says the earth brings forth of itself and once our hearts have been sown with the word of God ,Which is Spirit it brings forth life, the same way it Did Jesus. If theis mind be in you which was in Christ Jesus (IT) will Quicken your mortal bodies also. Just like it did his,the word is truly God and if its in you then God is in you also, just like he was in Our Lord Jesus.,the christ. peace to you brother…..gene

    #64986
    charity
    Participant

    Quote (Mr. Steve @ Aug. 29 2007,05:16)
    Charity;

    Thank you for your kind words.  May the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ guard and protect you and keep you until the coming of our Lord blameless in him.   All glory and honor and praise to him.

    Steven


    thankyou so much for coming to heaven net
    also gene; what a blessing to have both of you

    God is so Good

    #64993
    IM4Truth
    Participant

    Gen, Steve and Charity Sorry but I do have to disagree with you on this, because there are other scriptures that clearly states that Jesus existed before the world was. I don't believe in the trinity, I better say that. The Father is greater then the Son.
    John 17:5 ” And now O' Father, glorify Me together with yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the World began.”(meaning spirit I believe)
    John 6:57 ” As the Father SEND ME, and I live because of the Father, so who feeds on Me will live because of Me.
    verse 58 This is the Bread WHICH CAME DOWN FROM HEAVEN not as your fathers ate the manna, and are dead. He who eats the Bread will live forever.
    verse 62 “What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where HE WAS BEFORE

    Col. 1:15 ” He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
    verse 16 For by Him all things were created that are in Heaven and that are on earth………..
    verse 18 And He is the body of the Church, who is the BEGINNING, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence.
    Rev. 3:14 “These says the Amen the Faithful and True Witness, THE BEGINNING OF THE CREATION OF GOD;
    Please look at this scriptures again, it is also on the Preexisting Post. I hate to disagree with you Brothers and Sister, but how do you explain these scriptures? I do respect everyone of You and Bless you all.

    Peace and Love Mrs.

    #64995
    charity
    Participant

    Hi Mrs. truth; my thoughts… and I KNOW …THIS IS ALL STRANGE..I hope you can follow this…but please Know I am happy just for the truth; I don;t mind what it is; as Long it is Gods design; SO i am just sharing it as it flows

    What was spoken of in the beginning;
    was that which came second on earth;(Christ)
    after that which was spoken of second (Adam)
    Of that which existed first then was Adam?
    Made from the dust last… after God had finished making the second (christ) and the heavenly host of the heavens and earth; he began the adam creation out side of the seventh day; which is then the seventh day can only by reached by the beginning of the first man untill the 6th day arive on earth; made the New Image?
    That even started as far back as the day the covenant was given to the earth Psa 89:27 Also I will make him [my] firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth.

    Let US make man in our Image and likeness this is the covenant of the first born?
    God has made with some other?
    The likeness is… God is the spirit invisible, and the other is the man lost by the curse to dust; without hope?
    Jesus is to be now the Man that is made; come to get that which was lost; rise up ruins of many generations
    The Son of MAN AND the Son of God two in likeness; The father and God
    Where god has first spoken in the word of the seed that will come as the Image and likeness was when God talked to King David giving him the covenant and saying he will not change his mind; his word was that he would rise up his seed to Be the first born of this new creation; as if Let us your seed David and my spirit;

    Psa 89:3 I have made a covenant with my chosen, I have sworn unto David my servant,

    Psa 89:4 Thy seed will I establish for ever, and build up thy throne to all generations. Selah. And the heavens shall praise thy wonders, O LORD: thy faithfulness also in the congregation of the saints. Psa 89:19 Then thou spakest in vision to thy holy one, and saidst, I have laid help upon [one that is] mighty; I have exalted [one] chosen out of the people.
    I have found David my servant; with my holy oil have I anointed him:With whom my hand shall be established: mine arm also shall strengthen him. The enemy shall not exact upon him; nor the son of wickedness afflict him. And I will beat down his foes before his face, and plague them that hate him. But my faithfulness and my mercy [shall be] with him: and in my name shall his horn be exalted. I will set his hand also in the sea, and his right hand in the rivers.
    He shall cry unto me, Thou [art] my father, my God, and the rock of my salvation. Also I will make him [my] firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth.

    We are all planed and seated there in the seven days;
    But it still needs to come to pass; as the seven day creation is always in effect until the finish
    If we end up in the creation inheriting utter darkness; as if never have been created of God in the new Image; inherit the earth; and we were perhaps were deceived not to believe he created and new of us right from the beginning of everything
    And that which came first was the Adam creation
    Let us make Man in our Image a covenant was made between two; God gave his word on this happening; the man made in their Image; is Jesus… and the Man Jesus made in the Image of the two that spoke this;

    Good luck with this post…sorry

    #64996
    charity
    Participant

    The six Day cannot begin untill the Image of us arrives in time, so that God can rest his sevent Day; while his servent brings and leads us all to this house.

    2Sa 7:18 Then went king David in, and sat before the LORD, and he said, Who [am] I, O Lord GOD? and what [is] my house, that thou hast brought me hitherto?  

    Gen 1:26 ¶ And God said, Let “us” make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. So God created man in his [own] image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

    the morning of the six Day came

    2Sa 7:27  For thou, O LORD of hosts, God of Israel, hast revealed to thy servant, saying, I will build thee an house: therefore hath thy servant found in his heart to pray this prayer unto thee.
    And now, O Lord GOD, thou [art] that God, and thy words be true, and thou hast promised this goodness unto thy servant:
    Therefore now let it please thee to bless the house of thy servant, that it may continue for ever before thee: for thou, O Lord GOD, hast spoken [it]: and with thy blessing let the house of thy servant be blessed for ever.

    AND the end of the sixth day; as one day with God is a thousand years for us; from the set up of this house was a thousand years between King David to the coming christ.
    and subdue and replemish the already filled earth?

    Gen 1:27 So God created man in his [own] image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

    And that was the evening and morning of the six day.
    Gen 1:31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, [it was] very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

    #64998
    IM4Truth
    Participant

    Charity Christ as a Human was second, but He exsisted as a spirit first, I gave you the scriptures that prove that. David in the Psalms talks a lot of the LORD. Notice that LORD is written in Capital letters. Anytime you see that ,it is God the Father that He is talking about. I don't think that you can take the Psalms and apply it to preexsisting of Jesus. David is exalted, God called Him a man of His own Heart.
    And what was first was the Adam creation? If that were true then the scriptures that I gave you would contradict. Adam was the first man out of the dust of the earth. Jesus never was, He came forth from the Father. Inplannted into Mary's womb by the Fathers Holy Spirit. He gave up His Glory that He had to become Man, the glory was that He was a Spirit Being. He gave that up to become a man. John 17:5 is were He says ” And now O Father glorify Me with the Glory that I had with you before the world was. So He was Spirit first then man and then Spirit again and became Lord of Lords and King of Kings and will reign a thousant years here on earth. Then He will give the Kingdom back to God.
    1 Corinth. 15:28 ” Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him, who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.

    Peace and Love Mrs.

    #65000
    charity
    Participant

    Thanks mrs truth; I just have one wish; only the truth; I don;t mind what it is to be; just that it is delivered to me

    More to thoughts

    So what I need to think is that Christ was made before the sixth day?
    To be with God made as only a spirit for God to say let us make man in our Image and Likeness? That of two spirits
    And for man it is different
    1Cr 15:49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
    So if Jesus did not before hand bear the Image of the earthly dust creation before he came; only the heavenly which is the incorruptible Image;but yet came forth made of a father…
    Mat 22:42 Saying, What think ye of Christ? whose son is he? They say unto him, [The Son] of David. He saith unto them, How then doth David in spirit call him Lord, saying, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool? If David then call him Lord, how is he his son?
    And no man was able to answer him a word, neither durst any [man] from that day forth ask him any more [questions].

    Puzzling for some?

    Riddle even

    Then it brings back to how can I then acknowledge him in all righteousness as the son of men and the father in which he came from; that I may see God is requiring us to honoring the father seed and his part in the creating of Christ?
    Is it Time to give reward even to the faithful fathers and prophets and saints?
    for the Nations are full of wrath when this time comes?

    beast cast their crown to the ground; sorry we were wrong Lord?? sota thing

    Rev 4:9 And when those beasts give glory and honour and thanks to him that sat on the throne, who liveth for ever and ever, The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying,
    Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

    #65009
    IM4Truth
    Participant

    Charity I gave you the truth as I understand it. With scriptures to go with it. I am sorry that is the way I see it. Please explain these scriptures to me then? What do they mean to you?

    John 17:5 What does it mean when it says He was glorified with the Father before the Wold was.

    John 6:12 What if you see the Son of man ascend where He was before.

    Col. 1:15 He was the firstborn over all creation
    verse 16 For by Him all things were created. If He created all then He created the world etc. All things were created that are in Heaven and that are in earth…All things were created through Him.
    and verse 17&18………….So He may have preeminence in all..

    Peace and Love Mrs.

    #65018
    charity
    Participant

    Hi mrs truth
    I have to get back to you; its getting late;

    thanks for sharing how you see and understand things;
    God loves us all; and I can see many good offerings coming into the store house! head spin!
    many parts to the body; one can't be the hand foot and mouth on their own; this is a team :laugh:

    #65073
    Cult Buster
    Participant

    Quote (Mr. Steve @ Aug. 29 2007,08:47)
    CB;

    Remember verse 2 “The 'same' was in the beginning with God”  God's word is always with him and is his very essence.  When the scripture say the same was in the beginning with God the scripture makes it clear that God's word is inextricably part of God himself, they cannot be severed, only distinguished. His word will never pass away because he cannot passaway. He is God.   This word was made flesh in the Son of God who came in the flesh.  

    Steven


    Mr Steve.

    You're taking simple to understand verses of John and twisting them to try to conceal their true meaning, but the scriptures speak for themselves. It is a sin to pervert the scriptures.

    Joh 1:1  In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
    Joh 1:2  The same was in the beginning with God.
    Joh 1:14  Joh 1:14  And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

    Jesus the Word was God. It is very clear.

    Mr Steve. Are you or have you ever been a JW?

    2Pe 3:16  as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which the unlearned and unstable pervert, as also they do the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction.  :O

    #65074
    Cult Buster
    Participant

    TITUS 2:13 awaiting our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Saviour Jesus Christ

                                                                Amen and Amen!
                                                                         :O

    #65080
    charity
    Participant

    Quote (Cult Buster @ Aug. 30 2007,23:52)
    TITUS 2:13 awaiting our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Saviour Jesus Christ

                                                                Amen and Amen!
                                                                         :O


    1Ti 2:2 For kings, and [for] all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.

    1Ti 2:5 For [there is] one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

    in due time CB

    HAVE A NICE DAY ITS DUE

    #65155
    kejonn
    Participant

    The more and more I read John 1, the less I see a pre-existant being. Are we truly to take the OT passages that speak of the “word of YHWH” and see some being flitting around, carrying out God's actions? John 1 is a simple summarization of the creation narrative: God spoke and things came to be. God spoke and a Savior was born; it was God's plan to save mankind through His only begotten Son.

    What confuses the issue with John 1 is the translation of the Greek word “autos” as “him”. This word can mean “he, she, or it”, “him, her, or it”. Yet the translators used “him” with no real reason to do so other than popular opinion. Can a “logos” — a “word” — truly be a “him”? Can somone show me where a “logos” was a “him” outside of John 1?

    #65156
    kejonn
    Participant

    Quote (Cult Buster @ Aug. 30 2007,06:52)
    TITUS 2:13 awaiting our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Saviour Jesus Christ

                                                                Amen and Amen!
                                                                         :O


    Tts 2:13 looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus,

    Amen and amen indeed! Christ Jesus is rightly the glory of our great God and Savior, YHWH of the OT, and we await his return. But man is also called the glory of God

    1Cr 11:7 For a man ought not to have his head covered, since he is the image and glory of God; but the woman is the glory of man.

    #65158
    IM4Truth
    Participant

    kejonn Would you explain
    John 17:5 ” And now O' Father glorify Me together with yourself with the glory which I had with you before the world was.
    John 6:62 ” What then if you should see the Son of man ascend WHERE HE WAS BEFORE?

    COL. 1:15 ” He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.

    verse 16 For by Him all things were created that are in Heaven and that are in earth, visible and invisible.

    verse 18 And He is the head of the body the Church, who is the BEGINNING, THE FIRSTBOTRN FROM THE DEAD, THAT IN ALL THINGS He MAY HAVE PREEMINENCE.

    Rev. 3:14 ” These things says the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God.”

    PLEASE EXPLAIN THESE SCRIPTURES TO ME?

    Peace and Love Mrs.

    #65160
    kejonn
    Participant

    Well, to be truthful, the existance of Christ prior to his birth is something I'm still trying to understand. The biggest issue we have is that the OT does not support anyone residing in the heavens besides angels and God. But I don't believe that John 1 is a good passage to support “pre-existence” because “logos” should not be interpreted differently in this chapter than any other part of the NT, should it? And if we factor in the Septuagint, than we will be forced to apply “logos” differently from hundreds of OT passages as well.

    Quote (IM4Truth @ Aug. 31 2007,15:28)
    kejonn Would you explain
    John 17:5 ” And now O' Father glorify Me together with yourself with the glory which I had with you before the world was.


    This is quite simple if you assume prior existence. But if you don't, then you look to the glory that was already reserved for him as Messiah. God planned to deliver mankind via His only begotten Son. That is, the glory has always been his, but he did not actually receive it until he died, was raised, and ascended.

    Another point to consider was that he spoke of the glory that was his before the world was as opposed to simply before he came to earth if he truly “pre-existed”? After all, was there not 4000 biblical years (according to geneologies) between the Genesis account and Christ's birth? So if essence, to support prio existance, the verse might read “glorify Me together with yourself with the glory which I had with you before I came to earth“.

    Quote
    John 6:62 ” What then if you should see the Son of man ascend WHERE HE WAS BEFORE?


    Again, straightforward if you assume prior existance. But if you don't, then you consider that he came directly from the Father and was now returning to the Father, albeit in the form of the only begotten Son. This does not have to mean he had a prior form.

    Quote
    COL. 1:15 ” He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.


    Trinitarians supply their own refutation of a pre-existance here. They like to say that “firstborn of all creation” refers to his pre-eximinence, in that he is over all creation. Isaac was not truly the first to be born, but he was considered firstborn in relation to his status. And all mankind is the image of God according to Genesis 1:27, right? So this verse supports his humanity!

    Quote
    verse 16 For by Him all things were created that are in Heaven and that are in earth, visible and invisible.


    Some say this refers to the new creation, and this does have support in that thrones, dominions, rulers, and authorities are mentioned. After all, were there any of these things in Genesis 1?  

    Quote
    verse 18 And He is the head of the body the Church, who is the BEGINNING, THE FIRSTBOTRN FROM THE DEAD, THAT IN ALL THINGS He MAY HAVE PREEMINENCE.


    This verse seems to support the context of the new creation, does it not? It says the firstborn from the dead which signifies his resurrection. This phrase is immediately preceded by speaking of the church and being the beginning. The whole context is indeed of the new creation.

    Quote
    Rev. 3:14 ” These things says the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God.”


    Again, can we be certain that this means the beginning of creation in Gen 1? Revelation is all about the new heaven and new earth, nothing really in it about the Genesis creation. Did Yahshua not say he was going to prepare a place for us? What does that mean? Was it not already prepared? Obviously not, because that would make his words false.

    Quote
    PLEASE EXPLAIN THESE SCRIPTURES TO ME?

    Peace and Love Mrs.


    Don't know if I did, but it may give you some points to ponder.

    #65176
    charity
    Participant

    Pondering with you

    As Solomon would say…The locusts have no King
    but it seems that the seventh day is optional to enter; as if it dose not have time span. and some don't enter; For its written some because of unbelief have not enter their rest; as God did when he had finished his works; and entered the seventh Day; this must be because the refuse the First man God created; and make Jesus
    an Idol and call him God; because they don’t understand God gave his word that he would send him as first born of the creation; to be mediator; knowing his work.

    Rather than lift Jesus higher God is forced lower?

    Any sort of prex life of Christ on earth maybe that of Him that was made and saw corruption; amongst the generation of the Fathers that need redeeming… the whole of the cursed to death creation before Jesus;
    And as it twists and turns… and the last is written first; end before the start; then he also can be the “Us” in the Let us make man in our Image….under the convent of being the first begotten that God has given his word  said the new creation the first born of the dead. Prex,.

    #65177
    IM4Truth
    Participant

    Kejonn Yes it did. Thank you. Like I said before it is just recently that I began to study this, so I am not 100% convinced.
    But with the trinity I am 200% convinced. Have to make a copy and study it.
    Peace and Love Mrs.

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