John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 701 through 720 (of 25,994 total)
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  • #63457
    Mr. Steve
    Participant

    Not3in1;

    We're on the same page. However, there are many scriptures which show that Christ existed as a Son of God before being conceived in Mary.
    I've posted them on the usual threads.

    Steven

    #64033
    Cult Buster
    Participant

    Quote (Mr. Steve @ Aug. 08 2007,10:30)
    Not3in1;

    The best way to interpret scripture is with scripture. Christ said the seed is the Word of God.  His word is eternal.  Indeed, his word is eternal life and grows when it finds good ground.  Christ was good ground because he was born of the word and begotten by God and every tree bringeth forth fruit after his kind.  When God has children and the children obey they please God.  Christ said he always did the things that pleased the Father.  In response to the seed and the apple. Is not the seed part of the Apple.  When you have an apple, don't you have seeds, too.  In this manner the Word was God.  Some believers that do not believe in the pre-existence of the Son of God only believe that Christ was God just as the seed is the apple.  Again, the scriptures state that Christ made the worlds so he must have been begotten long before the foundation of our world and existed as the Son of God.


    Mr Steve.

    What you are doing again is putting the “twist” on scripture.

    In John 1:1 it states “. . . kai theos en ho logos”. This is usually translated as “. . . and the Word was God.”

    The original word order in Greek, however, is “. . . and God was the Word.”

    If when the predicate nominative precedes the verb and subject in Greek as it is the case here, the predicate nominative (in this case “theos”)  it cannot grammatically have a definite article. If it did have a definite article, then its position in the sentence would make it the subject of the sentence.

    Also however, when the predicate nominative precedes the verb and subject in the Greek, then the grammatical and stylistic effect is to emphasize the meaning of the predicate nominative and to give it the added effect of being a very forceful adjective.

    So the statement in John 1:1 means that the Word, which is Jesus, is God–not just “a god,” like the Jehovah's Witnesses highly biased NWT suggests.

    John 1:1  literally translated reads: “In beginning was the word, and the word was with the God, and God was the word.”

    Notice that it says “God was the word.” This is the actual word for word translation. It is not saying that “a god was the word.” as the corrupted NWT states. That wouldn't make sense. Let's break it down into three statements.

    “In beginning was the word…”
    (en arche en ho logos)

    “and the word was with the God…”
    (kai ho logos en pros ton theon)

    “and God was the word.”
    (kai theos en ho logos)

    — Properly translated as “and the Word was God.”

    Joh 1:14  And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, This obviously identifies Jesus as The Word (Jehovah God)

    The Gospel of John emphasizes the divinity of Christ from beginning to end. It starts with John 1:1 and climaxes in Thomas’ confession of faith.

    Joh 20:28  And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
     :O

    Rom 16:17  Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.
    Rom 16:18  For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.
    :O

    #64038
    kejonn
    Participant

    Quote (Cult Buster @ Aug. 14 2007,06:52)
    Rom 16:17 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.
    Rom 16:18 For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.
    :O


    “the doctrine which ye have learned”? Well, since the Trinity doctrine did not come about until many, many years later, and it DID cause a division among believers, there is a strong indication that Paul is speaking about it. That Paul was prophetic in his own right, wouldn't you say?

    Oh, “the hearts of the simple” is a good one too. The Trinity is not simple, it is called a mystery and many are confused by it. But the simple truth was not the Trinity so again, Paul addresses the fallacy of the Trinity twice in these 2 verses. Way to go Paul!

    #64044
    kejonn
    Participant

    I had seen something like this before, but had an opportunity to follow up on it today. Has anyone ever heard of the Coptic version of the Gospel of John? If not, I will highlight some things that relate to John 1:1. From http://sahidiccoptic.bravehost.com/solomon.html

    In harmony with Jesus' command to them, the early Christians eagerly spread the message of the good news of Jehovah's Kingdom far and wide. They made translations of the koine Greek Gospels into several languages. By about the year 200, the earliest of these were found in Syriac, Coptic, and Latin.1 Coptic was the language spoken by Christians in Egypt, in the Sahidic dialect, until replaced by the Fayyumic and the Bohairic dialects in Coptic church liturgy in the 11th century C.E.

    Much was made of it in the scholarly world when an apocryphal gospel written in Coptic, titled the “Gospel of Thomas,” was discovered in Egypt near Nag Hammadi in December 1945. Yet, after an initial welcome, the scholarly world has been strangely silent about an earlier and more significant find, the Sahidic Coptic translation of the canonical Gospel of John, which may date from about the late 2nd century C.E.

    The Sahidic Coptic text of the Gospel of John has been found to be in the Alexandrian text tradition of the well-regarded Codex Vaticanus (B) (Vatican 1209), one of the best of the early extant Greek New Testament manuscripts. Coptic John also shows affinities to the Greek Papyrus Bodmer XIV (p75) of the late 2nd/3rd century.3 Concerning the Alexandrian text tradition, Dr. Bruce Metzger states that it “is usually considered to be the best text and the most faithful in preserving the original.”

    Therefore, it is all the more strange that insights of the Sahidic Coptic text of John 1:1 are largely ignored by popular Bible translators. Might that be because the Sahidic Coptic Gospel of John translates John 1:1c in a way that is unpopular in Christendom? The Sahidic text renders John 1:1c as auw neunoute pe pshaje, clearly meaning literally “and was a god the Word.” Unlike koine Greek, Sahidic Coptic has both the definite article, p, and the indefinite article, u. The Coptic text of John 1:1b identifies the first mention of noute as pnoute, “the god,” i.e., God. This corresponds to the koine Greek text, wherein theos, “god,” has the definite article ho- at John 1:1b, i.e., “the Word was with [the] God.”

    The koine Greek text indicates the indefiniteness of the word theos in its second mention (John 1:1c), “god,” by omitting the definite article before it, because koine Greek had no indefinite article. But Coptic does have an indefinite article, and the text employs the indefinite article at John 1:1c. This makes it clear that in reading the original Greek text, the ancient Coptic translators understood it to say specifically that “the Word was a god.”

    The early Coptic Christians had a good understanding of both Greek and their own language, and their translation of John's koine Greek here is very precise and accurate. Because they actually employed the indefinite article before the word “god,” noute, the Sahidic Coptic translation of John 1:1c is more precise than the translation found in the Latin Vulgate, since Latin has neither a definite nor an indefinite article. Ancient Coptic translations made after the Sahidic, in the Bohairic dialect, also employ the indefinite article before the Coptic word for “god.”

    That very point may give some indication as to why the Sahidic Coptic translation of John 1:1c is largely kept under wraps in academic religious circles today. Most new English translations continue to translate this verse to say “the Word was God.” But the Coptic text provides clear evidence — from very ancient times — that the New World Translation is correct in rendering John 1:1c as “the Word was a god.”

    From http://commentary.copticjohn.com/

    Top Seven Reasons why the Coptic of John 1:1c should be translated 'a
    god'

    I. Grammatical: Coptic John 1:1c, ne.u.noute pe p.Saje is literally,
    ne = indicates past tense of what follows;
    (o)u = a (indefinite article);
    noute = god;
    pe = “was” when following ne;
    p = the (masculine singular definite article);
    Saje = Word,
    giving us interlinearly, “a god was the Word.”

    2. Grammatical and syntactical: The Coptic word noute, “god,” is not an abstract noun or noun indicating unspecified quantities of a substance, in which case the indefinite article could go without translation in English. Rather, it is a regular or count noun, in which case the English indefinite article “a” is customarily utilized in translation, as in the English translation of the Coptic New Testament by George Horner, and in numerous English translations of other Coptic works, such as the Gnostic gospels of Thomas, Philip, and Judas.

    Contrary to what some Trinitarian apologists imply, there is nothing incomprehensible or mysterious about the Coptic indefinite article. “The use of the Coptic articles, both definite and indefinite, corresponds closely to the use of the articles in English.” –Thomas O. Lambdin, Introduction to Sahidic Coptic, page 5

    3. Faithful to the underlying Greek text: Greek anarthrous pre-verbal predicate nouns are often translated as indefinite in English, utilizing the English indefinite article “a.”

    4. Understanding grounded on the underlying Greek text: Apart from theology, and on the basis of grammar alone, the ancient Coptic
    translators of the 2nd and 3rd centuries CE obviously understood the
    Greek construction of John 1:1c to be indefinite, and translated
    accordingly in the Coptic. If they had understood it to be definite
    (“the Word was God”), they had no indication of such a meaning in the
    Greek text, which does not have the Greek definite article here. If
    they understood it to be “qualitative,” (“the Word was deity or
    divine”) they could have translated it by means of Coptic adjectival
    prefixes. They did not, but utilized the Coptic indefinite article
    instead: ou noute: “a god.”

    5. Theology I: While we cannot know with specificity the theological
    presuppositions of the Coptic translators, or even if those
    presuppositions guided their translation of John 1:1c, it should be
    noted that their translation was most likely made before
    Trinitarianism became the established church dogma. The translators
    would have had no need to translate John 1:1c according to any
    Trinitarian formula that equated Jesus Christ with God Almighty.

    6. Theology II: Several early Church fathers contemporaneous with the Coptic translators, like Origen, distinguished between God and His Son, and were
    subordinationist in outlook. They saw he Son as subordinate to the
    Father, and not equal in either eternity or in ontology with the
    Father. To understand John 1:1c as saying “the Word was a god [or, a
    divine being]” would not have been out of harmony with the
    hermeneutics of the time that the Sahidic Coptic translation was made.

    7. New Testament Harmony: Like any other accurate translation of the New Testament, the ancient Sahidic Coptic New Testament preserves all the verses which show that Jesus Christ is a god, a divine being, the divine Son of God, the Image of God, God's firstborn, but not God Himself. The Coptic text does not support Modalism or Sabellianism.

    #64045
    Mr. Steve
    Participant

    CB;

    Thank you for the greek analysis on John 1:1. According to your interpretation, Christ was the Word. Where is that in the original greek?
    Does it not say the Word was God, or as you like, God was the Word. Are not they inseparable? Why then if the Word was Christ, that Christ was known as the Son of God and never the Son of the Word. How come no one in scripture refers to Christ as the Word, or the Son of the Word, come down from the cross.

    Jesus said was the Word was. The seed is the Word of God. This is why the Word and God are inseparable. The seed is within itself.

    Now if the Word was Christ and God, here are a few questions which arise from your conclusion. You believe that Christ is the Word in John 1:1. This verse states the Word is God. It would then follow that if Christ is the Word and the Word is God, then Christ is God. So if Christ is God then who is the Son of God. Is the Word both the Son of God and God? This sounds like Oneness. Hence, you are saying that Christ and God are inseparable.

    Why then did Christ distinguish himself in so many ways a part from his Father, if they are inseparable?

    If Christ is the Word and God, why did he say his doctrine or the words he spoke were not his?

    If Christ is the Word and God, why did he say he kept God's commandments? Wouldn't the commandments be his own?

    If Christ is the Word and God, how come everyone proclaimed he was the Son of God, including himself and his Father?

    If Christ is God, why did the Father say this is my Son?

    If Christ is God, why did he say God sent him a million times?

    When you share the gospel with people do you say that the Son of God died on the cross or the Almighty died?

    You do believe Christ is the Almighty?

    Also, if Christ is the Almighty, who was the Father that Jesus said was in heaven?

    You finalized your post with Romans 16:17-18 which warns to avoid people that cause divisions and deceive others for their own gain. You usually don't give an analysis so I reasonably inferred your intent to communicate that I am a deceiver from the scriptures you posted.

    You either have a demented sense of humor, or are deceived yourself. I suspect the later. However, I do not believe you are intentionally deceiving others with your trinity doctrine.

    Deceit is actually a legal action which requires misrepresentation or fraud. An intentional misrepresentation requires that you make a false statement knowing that it is false with the intent that another relies on the statement and does rely to their detriment. I do not believe you are a deceiver because you believe what you are saying with respect to the trinity is true. Hence, you have no intent to deceive because you don't know what the truth is so you can't misrepresent it.

    Good day

    Mr. Steve

    #64046
    kejonn
    Participant

    Whats sad is that an apologetic site is trying to refute the above, but this is all they can come up with: From http://www.forananswer.org/Top_JW/ScholarsAndCopticJohn.htm

    Bentley Layon

    “The indef. article is part of the Coptic syntactic pattern. This pattern predicates either a quality (we'd omit the English article in English: “is divine”) or an entity (“is a god”); the reader decides which reading to give it. The Coptic pattern does NOT predicate equivalence with the proper name “God”; in Coptic, God is always without exception supplied with the def. article. Occurrence of an anarthrous noun in this pattern would be podd.”1

    “Don't worry about the indefinite article of John 1.1 in Coptic; it might mean was a god, was divine, was an instance of 'god', was one god (not two, three, etc.). The range of meanings of the Coptic indef. article does not map nicely onto English usage, nor Greek. Once you learn Coptic you will know all of this.”

    That was supposed to refute “was a god”? didn't do too well. Let's see what more they have to offer

    J. Warren Wells

    “To answer your questions: On my website I state “Coptic was the first language the New Testament was translated into that has the indefinite article; and the only language with the indefinite article that was produced during the Koine Greek period. “The is of interest because, in Coptic versions, John 1:1b is commonly translated “the word was with God and the word was a God” using the Coptic indefinite article; with some variation in word order. “In the proto-Bohairic version (Papyrus Bodmer III, the text of which was partially reconstructed by Rodolphe Kasser) the first occurrence of “God” in John 1:1 is in the Nomina Sacra form, whereas the second occurrence is spelled out. In John 1:18 the word “God” (which no one has seen) is in the Nomina Sacra form, while the word “God” (only-begotten) is spelled out.” So literally, the Sahidic and Bohairic texts say “a god” in the extant mss. In a similar way translations of the Greek “pneuma ho theos” (spirit the god”) at John 4:24 usually say either “God is spirit” or “God is a spirit” where both give the same sense of “what” God is, not who he is. Here the Sahidic says literally “a spirit is the God” (P.Palau Rib 183) as does the Proto-Bohairic (Bodmer III). To me, the sense of the passage in John 1 is likewise a description of what the Logos was in relation to God. A rather clumsy reading might be: The Logos was in the beginning. The Logos was with God. The Logos was like God (or godlike, or divine) with the emphasis on his nature; not his person.

    So this still does not give the Trinitarian his full meaning for “and the Word was God”. Now let's compare this to Philo of Alexandria again.

    What then ought we to say? There is one true God only: but they who are called Gods, by an abuse of language, are numerous; on which account the holy scripture on the present occasion indicates that it is the true God that is meant by the use of the article, the expression being, “I am the God (ho Theos);” but when the word is used incorrectly, it is put without the article, the exression being, “He who was seen by thee in the place,” not of the God (tou Theou), but simply “of God” (Theou); (1.230) and what he here calls God is his most ancient word, not having any superstitious regard to the position of the names, but only proposing one end to himself, namely, to give a true account of the matter; for in other passages the sacred historian, when he considered whether there really was any name belonging to the living God, showed that he knew that there was none properly belonging to him; but that whatever appellation any one may give him, will be an abuse of terms; for the living God is not of a nature to be described, but only to be.

    So comparing the Coptic translation with Philo (who preceded the writing of the New Testament), we see that the 1st and 2nd century Christians would not have see “the Word was God” in John 1:1.

    #64048
    Mr. Steve
    Participant

    Kejonn;

    Why the fuss over John 1:1. There's no mention of Christ or his most proper title- Son of God. The next verse is key. The “same” was in the beginning with God. If John were referring to Christ he would have said “He was in the beginning with God.” John was stating that the Father God is entirely self-existent and all life proceeds from him. Whose seed is in itself. Indeed, the seed was with the Apple and part of the Apple yet somewhat distinct in itself. The truth is so rich.

    #64052
    kejonn
    Participant

    Steve,

    Why? Because those who were disciples of John, who was supposed to have written The Gospel of John, thoroughly believed that the Word was Yahshua. Here are some quotes from Ignatius:

    He, being begotten by the Father before the beginning of time, was God the Word, the only-begotten Son, and remains the same for ever; for “of His kingdom there shall be no end,” says Daniel the prophet.

    And God the Word was truly born of the Virgin, having clothed Himself with a body of like passions with our own.

    Since, also, there is but one unbegotten Being, God, even the Father; and one only-begotten Son, God, the Word and man;

    About Ignatius:

    Saint Ignatius of Antioch (also known as Theophorus) (ca. 35-107)[1] was the third Bishop or Patriarch of Antioch and a student of Apostle John. En route to his martyrdom in Rome, Ignatius wrote a series of letters which have been preserved as an example of the theology of the earliest Christians. Important topics addressed in these letters include ecclesiology, the sacraments, and the role of bishops.

    #64054
    Mr. Steve
    Participant

    Kejonn;

    Thank you Sir.

    Mr. Steve

    #64059
    charity
    Participant

    Again who is this that has darkened our counsel by words with out Knowledge; Gird up men sayeth God Where are the foundations of the beginning Laid; A precious Stone; A stone that the builders refused; whom shall believe the report of whom the Arm of the God has been extended;

    Isa 40:20 He that [is] so impoverished that he hath no oblation chooseth a tree [that] will not rot; he seeketh unto him a cunning workman to prepare a graven image, [that] shall not be moved.
    21 ¶ Have ye not known? have ye not heard? hath it not been told you from the beginning? have ye not understood from the foundations of the earth?
    :22 [It is] he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof [are] as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:

    Job 38:1 ¶ Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said, :2 Who [is] this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge? 3 Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me.
    4 ¶ Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.
    :5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?
    :6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof; :7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

    selah

    #64061
    Mr. Steve
    Participant

    Charity;

    Could you share your reasoning? I'm not sure what your point is or who you are responding to, if anyone.

    Mr. Steven

    #64065
    charity
    Participant

    Hi  Mr. steve

    Sorry to confuse you;

    I speck of the Gospel of John and the Hand of the writer
    Even his manner of beginning this Gospel John 1;1
    The great vexation begins; to work out what John means; God has put a desire in us to push to learn of Him; these words are just grief with out full report;
    All thou I write these things; I need you to Know that I
    Will not fail to submit to you and others; I do love the truth; and always If I can understand I will quickly humble myself before the excelent spirit; even the Kings of babylon will fall at the truth
    By honors and dishonor, by evil report and good report: as deceivers, and yet with true words; but without truth and freedom;
    The prisoners are refused freedom
    The garments the Man has put on are to righteous for him; (Gospal of John)
    He has taken and made our Christ to answer
    and made him to speck things before man that…
    Before Time were prophside that; that when he was to come before the unrightous; his tounge cleaved to the roof of His mouth and he brought being in silence
    Amongst many things he has taken advantage in that Time of silence; to remove the Kingdom hence from us; and accuse us responsible for not fighting
    That he be not delivered to the jews; O this is so wrong; Mr steve
    Jhn 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.
    even peter holding the keys to the kingdom could not raily an army to defence; at such a cime; prceeds further to reach us now
    He layeth the axe to his brothers roots….
     He casteth doubt three times on one….from which Christ has laid the keys to the kingdom; that it maybe done on this earth; called even question upon his head from above; to hold firm the earth inheritance
    He cast down the work of our lord, and his crown; that he exalts himself above the poor and needy

    And if not…; I pray you would forgive me if I am wrong;
    but it is not an easy thing; to join the great feast of God; and rise up against the Kings that have destroyed and made the earth desolate; even by their writings

    Isa 14:16  They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, [and] consider thee, [saying, Is] this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms; :17  [That] made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; [that] opened not the house of his prisoners?
    :18  All the kings of the nations, [even] all of them, lie in glory, every one in his own house.
    Rev 19:17 ¶ And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; :18  That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all [men, both] free and bond, both small and great. 19  And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
    It is not

    :(  charity

    #64668
    michaels
    Participant

    Quote (charity @ Aug. 15 2007,21:21)
    Hi  Mr. steve

    Sorry to confuse you;

    I speck of the Gospel of John and the Hand of the writer
    Even his manner of beginning this Gospel John 1;1
    The great vexation begins; to work out what John means; God has put a desire in us to push to learn of Him; these words are just grief with out full report;
    All thou I write these things; I need you to Know that I
    Will not fail to submit to you and others; I do love the truth; and always If I can understand I will quickly humble myself before the excelent spirit; even the Kings of babylon will fall at the truth
    By honors and dishonor, by evil report and good report: as deceivers, and yet with true words; but without truth and freedom;
    The prisoners are refused freedom
    The garments the Man has put on are to righteous for him; (Gospal of John)
    He has taken and made our Christ to answer
    and made him to speck things before man that…
    Before Time were prophside that; that when he was to come before the unrightous; his tounge cleaved to the roof of His mouth and he brought being in silence
    Amongst many things he has taken advantage in that Time of silence; to remove the Kingdom hence from us; and accuse us responsible for not fighting
    That he be not delivered to the jews; O this is so wrong; Mr steve
    Jhn 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.
    even peter holding the keys to the kingdom could not raily an army to defence; at such a cime; prceeds further to reach us now
    He layeth the axe to his brothers roots….
     He casteth doubt three times on one….from which Christ has laid the keys to the kingdom; that it maybe done on this earth; called even question upon his head from above; to hold firm the earth inheritance
    He cast down the work of our lord, and his crown; that he exalts himself above the poor and needy

    And if not…; I pray you would forgive me if I am wrong;
    but it is not an easy thing; to join the great feast of God; and rise up against the Kings that have destroyed and made the earth desolate; even by their writings

    Isa 14:16  They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, [and] consider thee, [saying, Is] this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms; :17  [That] made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; [that] opened not the house of his prisoners?
    :18  All the kings of the nations, [even] all of them, lie in glory, every one in his own house.
    Rev 19:17 ¶ And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; :18  That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all [men, both] free and bond, both small and great. 19  And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
    It is not

    :(  charity


    you dont like john 1:1 ,this me believe to be the best,for all the traditions of men have been droped, not to prove him by men and traditions,geneology,well he is the son of ,bla bla bla to prove he came thru a certain line,hmmm, jesus is the son of GOD ,that simple, for he is one with GOD,has allways been,and is GOD, yet there is only one GOD,and one father, john seems to get rite to the truth,can we prove GOD thru trditions of men,hmmm well some say we are sons of abraham,yet did this prove anything to jesus, did he not say if they were abrams sons they would do as abram did,jesus did not as any man,thus he is not a son of man, but the son of GOD.for he did the works of GOD,so how con we say he is tied to any line of men?

    #64679
    charity
    Participant

    Michaels>The Son of Man Has regenerations to follow him; yet then he is the Son of God without as you say; but if you stay with John he wishes to ride over the redeemed; that no man will rise; keeping him a one off creation of God
    There is no sure mercy and the dead have perished then; no commission for the lost; that hoped in the resurrection of Life after him to also prolong their days; as he did
    Who did he know that he should transport to become his first born; that was declared as the Son of God; when the heavens open and figure descended down from above?
    Rom 8:29  For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
    Mat 19:28
    And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

    Rom 8:30  Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

    Is it hard thing to consider; all the souls created Had to return to the dust; by the curse from the garden; By the mercy of God souls preserved and have the promise from God that they will rise for judgement Days; to put on salvation and prolong their days. Take part in the first resurrection the second is the second death lake of fire

    And for unbelieving with no faith their shall be no miracles; only the miracle of the Men of Nineveh and the queen of Sheba rising to prove the seed is foreknown to be conformed also to the Image with this generation; to prolong their days; called to judge the twelve tribes of Israel

    #64822
    Cult Buster
    Participant

    kejonn

    Quote
    But the Coptic text provides clear evidence — from very ancient times — that the New World Translation is correct in rendering John 1:1c as “the Word was a god.”

    http://www.apologeticsindex.org/j01.html

    What Greek Scholars Think of the New World Translation

    This collection of quotes, found on many Christian Bulletin Boards, primarily addresses the Jehovah Witnesses mistranslation of John 1:1

    Dr. J. R. Mantey (who is quoted on pages 1158-1159) of the Witnesses own Kingdom interlinear Translation):

    “A shocking mistranslation.” “Obsolete and incorrect.” “It is neither scholarly nor reasonable to translate John 1:1 'The Word was a god.'”
    Dr. Bruce M. Metzger of Princeton (Professor of New Testament Language and Literature):

    “A frightful mistranslation.” “Erroneous” and “pernicious” “reprehensible” “If the Jehovah's Witnesses take this translation seriously, they are polytheists.”
    Dr. Samuel J. Mikolaski of Zurich, Switzerland:

    “This anarthrous (used without the article) construction does not mean what the indefinite article 'a' means in English. It is monstrous to translate the phrase 'the Word was a god.'”
    Dr. Paul L. Kaufman of Portland, Oregon:

    “The Jehovah's Witnesses people evidence an abysmal ignorance of the basic tenets of Greek grammar in their mistranslation of John 1:1.”
    Dr. Charles L. Feinberg of La Mirada, California:

    “I can assure you that the rendering which the Jehovah's Witnesses give John 1:1 is not held by any reputable Greek scholar.”
    Dr. James L. Boyer of Winona Lake, Indiana:

    “I have never heard of, or read of any Greek Scholar who would have agreed to the interpretation of this verse insisted upon by the Jehovah's Witnesses…I have never encountered one of them who had any knowledge of the Greek language.”
    Dr. Walter R. Martin (who did not teach Greek but has studied the language):

    “The translation…'a god' instead of 'God' is erroneous and unsupported by any good Greek scholarship, ancient or contemporary and is a translation rejected by all recognized scholars of the Greek language may of whom are not even Christians, and cannot fairly be said to be biased in favor of the orthodox contention.”
    Dr. William Barclay of the University of Glasgow, Scotland:

    “The deliberate distortion of truth by this sect is seen in their New testament translations. John 1:1 is translated: '…the Word was a god,' a translation which is grammatically impossible…It is abundantly clear that a sect which can translate the New Testament like that is intellectually dishonest.”
    Dr. F. F. Bruce of the University of Manchester, England:

    “Much is made by Arian amateur grammarians of the omission of the definite article with 'God' in the phrase 'And the Word was God.' Such an omission is common with nouns in a predicative construction…'a god' would be totally indefensible.” [Barclay and Bruce are generally regarded as Great Britain's leading Greek scholars. Both have New Testament translations in print!]
    Dr. Ernest C. Colwell of the University of Chicago:

    “A definite predicate nominative has the article when it follows the verb; it does not have the article when it precedes the verb…this statement cannot be regarded as strange in the prologue of the gospel which reaches its climax in the confession of Thomas. 'My Lord and my God.' – John 20:28”
    Dr. Phillip B. Harner of Heidelberg College:

    “The verb preceding an anarthrous predicate, would probably mean that the LOGOS was 'a god' or a divine being of some kind, belonging to the general category of THEOS but as a distinct being from HO THEOS. In the form that John actually uses, the word “THEOS” is places at the beginning for emphasis.”
    Dr. J. Johnson of California State University, Long Beach:

    “No justification whatsoever for translating THEOS EN HO LOGOS as 'the Word was a god.' There is no syntactical parallel to Acts 28:6 where there is a statement in indirect discourse; John 1:1 is direct….I am neither a Christian nor a trinitarian.”
    Dr. Eugene A. Nida, head of Translations Department, American Bible Society:

    “With regard to John 1:1, there is of course a complication simply because the New World Translation was apparently done by persons who did not take seriously the syntax of the Greek.” [Responsible for the Good News Bible – The committee worked under him.]
    Dr. B. F. Wescott (whose Greek text – not the English part – is used in the Kingdom Interlinear Translation):

    “The predicate (God) stands emphatically first, as in IV.24. It is necessarily without the article…No idea of inferiority of nature is suggested by the form of expression, which simply affirms the true deity of the Word…in the third clause 'the Word' is declared to be 'God' and so included in the unity of the Godhead.”
    Dr. J. J. Griesbach (whose Greek text – not the English part – is used in the Emphatic Diaglott):

    “So numerous and clear are the arguments and testimonies of Scriptures in favour of the true Deity of Christ, that I can hardly imagine how, upon the admission of the Divine authority of Scripture, and with regard to fair rules of interpretation, this doctrine can by any man be called in doubt. Especially the passage, John 1:1-3, is so clear and so superior to all exception, that by no daring efforts of either commentators or critics can it be snatched out of the hands of the defenders of the truth.”

    #64823
    Cult Buster
    Participant

    .

    “In beginning was the word…”
    (en arche en ho logos)

    “and the word was with the God…”
    (kai ho logos en pros ton theon)

    “and God was the word.”
    (kai theos en ho logos)

    — Properly translated as “and the Word was God.”

    Joh 1:14  And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, This obviously identifies Jesus as The Word (Jehovah God)

    The Gospel of John emphasizes the divinity of Christ from beginning to end. It starts with John 1:1 and climaxes in Thomas’ confession of faith when he says “My Lord and my God” (John 20:28).

    Joh 20:28  And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.  :O

    #64834
    kenrch
    Participant

    Quote (Cult Buster @ Aug. 26 2007,23:58)
    .

    “In beginning was the word…”
    (en arche en ho logos)

    “and the word was with the God…”
    (kai ho logos en pros ton theon)

    “and God was the word.”
    (kai theos en ho logos)

    — Properly translated as “and the Word was God.”

    Joh 1:14  And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, This obviously identifies Jesus as The Word (Jehovah God)

    The Gospel of John emphasizes the divinity of Christ from beginning to end. It starts with John 1:1 and climaxes in Thomas’ confession of faith when he says “My Lord and my God” (John 20:28).

    Joh 20:28  And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.  :O


    CB, Who was the Son of MAN?

    #64912
    Mr. Steve
    Participant

    CB;

    The word is the seed of God. The eternal procreation within God himself who by himself has begotten us in him in Christ Jesus. Christ was not the Word in heaven, but the Son of God begotten by the Word, as we all are begotten by God by his Word. Christ came down from heaven not to do his own will but the will of him that sent him. The scriptures identify Christ as a person in heaven with God, not merely the Word, because he had a will and it was not his will but the Father's which sent him. A Word or seed has no Will. Except a cernel of wheat fall to the ground and die it abides alone.

    Mr. Steve

    Steven

    #64917
    charity
    Participant

    All glory honor and praise Mr. steven;A tree of rightousness;Anoited by the lord; for the seed is all that obtains the resurrection from the dead sown unto the knowledge of life again; to follow in the regenerations after Christ;
    May the saints appear to rise up the ruins of many generations; to the great commission?

    Isa 61:1 ¶ The Spirit of the Lord GOD [is] upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to [them that are] bound; 2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn; :3 To appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, to give unto them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; that they might be called trees of righteousness, the planting of the LORD, that he might be glorified. :4 ¶ And they shall *build the old wastes*, *they shall raise up the former desolations*, and they shall repair the waste cities, the *desolations of many generations*. 5 And strangers shall stand and feed your flocks, and the sons of the alien [shall be] your plowmen and your vinedressers.
    :6 But ye shall be named the Priests of the LORD: [men] shall call you the Ministers of our God: ye shall eat the riches of the Gentiles, and in their glory shall ye boast yourselves.

    #64946
    Cult Buster
    Participant

    Quote (Mr. Steve @ Aug. 28 2007,11:49)
    CB;

    The word is the seed of God.  The eternal procreation within God himself who by himself has begotten us in him in Christ Jesus.  Christ was not the Word in heaven, but the Son of God begotten by the Word, as we all are begotten by God by his Word.  Christ came down from heaven not to do his own will but the will of him that sent him.  The scriptures identify Christ as a person in heaven with God, not merely the Word,  because he had a will and it was not his will but the Father's which sent him.  A Word or seed has no Will.  Except a cernel of wheat fall to the ground and die it abides alone.  

    Mr. Steve

    Steven


    I have read your above post, but I'd rather accept what John wrote.

                    ……………..and the Word was God…………… (John 1:1)

    .

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