John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 6,721 through 6,740 (of 26,009 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #295788
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 01 2012,04:58)
    Hi KW,
    As long as you realise the mind serves the Spirit.


    Nick,

    Reason not based on the Spirit is flawed because it is based on untruth.

    #295789
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi KW,
    God expects obedience.
    He does not debate with greeks.
    Faith comes from hearing;and hearing the Word of God
    His gentle ways belie His response to those who have ignored the opportunity of rescue

    #295791
    kerwin
    Participant

    Colter,

    Do you know what a hypothesis is?

    Wikipedia states “A hypothesis is a proposed explanation for a phenomenon”.

    I have not the time to chase mirages seen by those that do not have the Spirit.

    I will point out that that the NIV was updated in 2011 but the books therein existed many years previous.  I am sure that, unless the Hebrew language or culture never changed, the Scrolls were updated as well.

    #295793
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ May 01 2012,10:12)

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 01 2012,04:58)
    Hi KW,
    As long as you realise the mind serves the Spirit.


    Nick,

    Reason not based on the Spirit is flawed because it is based on untruth.


    Hi KW,
    Men still use the Word to uphold reason.
    That is not the way

    #295794
    charity
    Participant

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 30 2012,16:47)
    Hi Frank,
    Indeed Jesus Christ was the WORD personified.
    God spoke through his servant Son


    Hi Nick, perhaps some might understand the context

    “WORD” = GOVERNMENT

    Government is a code of respect.

    For Jesus was an is expected to rule a literal city..an act as the government In Word…hence.. new Jerusulem to desend!, CREATED THEY for him….In “WORD”…an there still REMAINS the original throne of Davids on earth…That was very much his concern.. he sit, not anywhere near his father Davids throne, as if the “WORD” imply… day to day, Life conditions on earth had little importance…even though he was, prophetically morned an waited for, that he would save them from serving opressors..(Roman) (funny, 2 Jerusluem now>>since then, (one for Jesus)… an the main everlasting Throne (Davids) for the Romans) An still there today, with another bum on the seat. Awaiting the next seige on the predicted everlasting throne on earth..hence.all by faith! to be seen!

    Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
    Isa 9:7 Of the increase of [his] government and peace [there shall be] no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.
    Isa 9:8¶The Lord sent a word into Jacob, and it hath lighted upon Israel.

    #295796
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ April 30 2012,11:18)
    Take your foolishness and present it to Mike and t8, since they seem to be the ones that you have the most fun with!


    I'm with you on this one, Frank. What else would God have “begotten”? A daughter? ???

    There is no doubt that “son” is implied in the teaching.

    #295797
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ April 30 2012,11:23)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 30 2012,03:07)

    FRANK, the pronouns were written in the MASCULINE form by John, so you need the play the hand you've been dealt and live with it.


    Mike,

    Don't be fooled! Yahchanan never done any of the translations that you are reading!  :D


    The oldest mss found so far have the masculine form of the Greek pronouns associated with “the Word”.

    If we ever uncover older ones with neuter pronouns, I will take another look at my understanding. Until then, I accept the available evidence that “the Word” was a “HE”, and not an “IT”.

    #295798
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 01 2012,05:14)
    Hi KW,
    God expects obedience.
    He does not debate with greeks.
    Faith comes from hearing;and hearing the Word of God
    His gentle ways belie His response to those who have ignored the opportunity of rescue


    Nick,

    Acts 17:2
    New King James Version (NKJV)

    2 Then Paul, as his custom was, went in to them, and for three Sabbaths reasoned with them from the Scriptures,

    God does engage in reasoning but not in bickering.

    #295799
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 01 2012,06:19)

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ April 30 2012,11:23)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 30 2012,03:07)

    FRANK, the pronouns were written in the MASCULINE form by John, so you need the play the hand you've been dealt and live with it.


    Mike,

    Don't be fooled! Yahchanan never done any of the translations that you are reading!  :D


    The oldest mss found so far have the masculine form of the Greek pronouns associated with “the Word”.

    If we ever uncover older ones with neuter pronouns, I will take another look at my understanding.  Until then, I accept the available evidence that “the Word” was a “HE”, and not an “IT”.


    Mike,

    It is not going to happen as Word is a masculine noun.  Word would have to changed to a neuter synonym for it to be correct Ancient Greek grammar.

    #295801
    Spock
    Participant

    Quote (Ed J @ May 01 2012,09:20)
    HI Colter,

    Hearsay and popular opinion,
    nothing that could be considered as evidence?

    Pointing to (Chronicles and Kings) the books of the scribes of the king,
    to classify these as less than canon, would the book of Urantia not fall into this same classification?

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org


    Pride blinds Ed j, you have your entire faith life invested in the perfection of the Bible. There is little chance that you could ever concede imperfection of “the idol”. The Jehovah's Witness sect would not be happy with you either.

    I find that people don't believe some of the bigger whoppers in the bible because they sound true, they believe them because they are in the current collection of books that comprise the Bible.

    For instance, if the flood story was not in the Bible and someone recently dug up a story like that with the Dead Sea scrolls, then thinking men would discount such a ridiculous story out of hand. But, because the Hebrews wrote that in to connect dead end blood lines with Adam, people actually teach that nonsense. And not only do innocent children trust it because the adults teach it, but adults actually still believe the flood story.

    Anyhow, you can and will ignore the analysis used to show the evidence of multiple authors in the OT books, carry on.

    Colter

    #295805
    charity
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 01 2012,11:16)

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ April 30 2012,11:18)
    Take your foolishness and present it to Mike and t8, since they seem to be the ones that you have the most fun with!


    I'm with you on this one, Frank.  What else would God have “begotten”?  A daughter?   ???

    There is no doubt that “son” is implied in the teaching.


    begotten is formed threw desire…..MY THOUGHTS NOT COMPLAINTS..

    King James Version (KJV)
    Matthew – Chapter 12

    Mat 12:18 Behold my servant, whom I have chosen; my beloved, in whom my soul is well pleased: I will put my spirit upon him, and he shall shew judgment to the Gentiles.

    Mat 12:19 He shall not strive, nor cry; neither shall any man hear his voice in the streets.
    (Except for John eco..ing his WORD)

    Mat 12:20 A bruised reed shall he not break, and smoking flax shall he not quench, till he send forth judgment unto victory.
    ( POWER, HOPE IS A FADING)

    Mat 12:21 And in his name shall the Gentiles trust.

    Mat 12:22¶Then was brought unto him one possessed with a devil, blind, and dumb: and he healed him, insomuch that the blind and dumb both spake and saw. ( SOME MOSES TOUCH UPS)

    Mat 12:23 And all the people were amazed, and said, Is not this the son of David????????

    Mat 12:24 But when the Pharisees heard [it], they said, This [fellow] doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils. (TIME TO SPOIL His house guy'sBefore he spoils ours? careful they agree! want you to eat the sign, no ristance)

    Mat 12:29 Or else how can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house.

    Mat 12:33¶Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by [his] fruit. (YEP EXACTLY, LETS TWIST  EVERYTHING SO MUCH tHAT RESEMBLES GOOD)

    Mat 12:37 For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned. (SOMETIME LATTER THEY WILL HAVE TO AWAKEN)

    :38¶Then certain of the scribes and of the Pharisees answered, saying, Master, we would see a sign from thee.
    (NO i AM NOT THE FIRST AN THE ONLY BEGOTTEN sON SEEN, WEAR SOME EARS PLEASE PRIESTS OF gOD)

    Mat 12:39 But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:
    (But haha,  I bet you want to destroy me just to see? AN FUNNY ENOUGH YOU MAY HAVE CREATE YOUR THE UNWORTHY SIGN I  HAVE PROMISED NOT)

    Mat 12:40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
    But you just said no sign will be given to these mob of priests) (other than Jonas)

    Mat 12:41 The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas [is] here.
    ( prepare for the unknown an hand the key's to condemn on incase I cant return before this generation pass's)

    Mat 12:42 The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for she came from the uttermost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon [is] here.
    WELL WHY NOT sOLOMAN> Himself? NO jUST OTHER BLOOD THAT MANAGES TO HEAR AN CHANGE DIRECTION, THEY ARE A FIERCE FORCE TO RECON WITH!

    #295806
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (Colter @ May 01 2012,14:59)

    Quote (terraricca @ May 01 2012,07:48)

    Quote (Colter @ May 01 2012,14:35)

    Quote (terraricca @ May 01 2012,07:16)

    Quote (Colter @ May 01 2012,12:28)

    Quote (terraricca @ May 01 2012,04:44)
    colter

    Quote
    Hi terraricca,

    Well, even as a child i knew the Genesis story was a porky. I used to ask uncomfortable questions in Sunday school which went unanswered by the innocent teachers. I've always known that Noah's flood was a vast exageration, so latter in life, when I found a better explanation then those more primitive teachings, I was better able to accept them. But ya have to assume that when a story is written by people who call themselves “Gods chosen people” then they may take certain liberties with how they themselves figure into world history.

    Colter

    it is obvious from your explanation that you have rejected Gods word and the sacrifice of his son ,and so your faith is null, you are a social believer not in God but in men ability to learn to live in a social way,

    this is the mystery of the gospel.


    Jesus didn't believe the OT was “Gods word”. The OT doesn’t even say it's “Gods Word”.

    Jesus' Gospel, long before the unjust cross, did not teach human sacrifice. That idea came from the Pagans that invented Christianity as well as the Jewish converts who were used to blood sacrifice. Jesus didn't teach, preach or practice blood sacrifice. Drinking blood and eating flesh is a vampire thing.

    Colter


    colter

    Lk 24:24 Then some of our companions went to the tomb and found it just as the women had said, but him they did not see.”
    Lk 24:25 He said to them, “How foolish you are, and how slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken!
    Lk 24:26 Did not the Christ have to suffer these things and then enter his glory?”
    Lk 24:27 And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he explained to them what was said in all the Scriptures concerning himself.

    you are not my brother in teaching what you say,and here I quote you some scriptures that are in direct oposition to your view,

    you are of the world not of Christ ,


    It's not strange that Luke, a Jewish convert to the Christian movement, would write in this way. The Jews were also terrorized by the temple authorities who more or less knew that the OT books were not written by God. But the scriptures did retain many beautiful and true things.

    Jesus also said that he who is not against us is with us, but many self righteous Christians presume to judge who is saved and who isn't.

    God knows my heart; I don't really care what you think of me.

    Colter


    colter

    I do not judge you for your live ,I judge your comments and compere it to scriptures ,it does not matter what I think you think we all stand before Gods throne of judgement ,no escape,

    I just say what is in scriptures ,but you know better than scripures ,this is we are now going each his own way ,and God will judge us .


    That’s exactly what the religious people did that killed Jesus, the hid behind the scripture.

    Colter


    colter

    wrong again ,they did not believe in scriptures just like you ,

    if they would have believed they would have recognized the Christ

    #295807
    Ed J
    Participant

    Quote (Colter @ May 01 2012,11:36)

    Quote (Ed J @ May 01 2012,09:20)
    HI Colter,

    Hearsay and popular opinion,
    nothing that could be considered as evidence?

    Pointing to (Chronicles and Kings) the books of the scribes of the king,
    to classify these as less than canon, would the book of Urantia not fall into this same classification?

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org


    Pride blinds Ed j, you have your entire faith life invested in the perfection of the Bible. There is little chance that you could ever concede imperfection of “the idol”. The Jehovah's Witness sect would not be happy with you either.

    I find that people don't believe some of the bigger whoppers in the bible because they sound true, they believe them because they are in the current collection of books that comprise the Bible.

    For instance, if the flood story was not in the Bible and someone recently dug up a story like that with the Dead Sea scrolls, then thinking men would discount such a ridiculous story out of hand. But, because the Hebrews wrote that in to connect dead end blood lines with Adam, people actually teach that nonsense. And not only do innocent children trust it because the adults teach it, but adults actually still believe the flood story.

    Anyhow, you can and will ignore the analysis used to show the  evidence of multiple authors in the OT books, carry on.

    Colter


    Hi Colter, (Link to evidence)

    Rudimentary logic proves nothing either.
    I have documented the authenticity of the “The Bible's” divine Authorship.
    The only thing the book of Urania has is its self proclamations. (kinda like the quran)

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

    #295809
    kerwin
    Participant

    Colter,

    Why do you believe the suppositions of so-called experts who do not know God are of any great importance?

    The goal of the message is to be righteous as God is righteous.  The hypothesis of these ignorant and corrupt men are of no aid in obtaining that purpose.

    #295831
    Frank4YAHWEH
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 01 2012,11:19)

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ April 30 2012,11:23)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 30 2012,03:07)

    FRANK, the pronouns were written in the MASCULINE form by John, so you need the play the hand you've been dealt and live with it.


    Mike,

    Don't be fooled! Yahchanan never done any of the translations that you are reading!  :D


    The oldest mss found so far have the masculine form of the Greek pronouns associated with “the Word”.

    If we ever uncover older ones with neuter pronouns, I will take another look at my understanding.  Until then, I accept the available evidence that “the Word” was a “HE”, and not an “IT”.


    Mike,

    The oldest manuscripts of Father Yahweh's inspired prophetic word are not Greek, but Hebrew. Father Yahweh's word did not exist with him in the beginning as a separate being apart from Him. This is why the article that I presented asks you to look at it from a Hebrew perspective and not Greek.

    #295835
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ May 01 2012,21:04)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 01 2012,11:19)

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ April 30 2012,11:23)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 30 2012,03:07)

    FRANK, the pronouns were written in the MASCULINE form by John, so you need the play the hand you've been dealt and live with it.


    Mike,

    Don't be fooled! Yahchanan never done any of the translations that you are reading!  :D


    The oldest mss found so far have the masculine form of the Greek pronouns associated with “the Word”.

    If we ever uncover older ones with neuter pronouns, I will take another look at my understanding.  Until then, I accept the available evidence that “the Word” was a “HE”, and not an “IT”.


    Mike,

    The oldest manuscripts of Father Yahweh's inspired prophetic word are not Greek, but Hebrew. Father Yahweh's word did not exist with him in the beginning as a separate being apart from Him. This is why the article that I presented asks you to look at it from a Hebrew perspective and not Greek.


    F

    Paul disagree with you in Col 1;15-18 and Solomon in Prov;8;22 -31,

    but in your view they are liars and so not saints ,or have not been inspired right ??? yes

    if you believe that this men are liars but then you have no faith of any kind,not even in God because you have made God lower than men ,and in need of men ,this will result in the judgement of Uzzah

    #295840
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi T,
    You misunderstand.
    Prov 8 speaks of wisdom does it not?
    All creation is of the wisdom of God and is as a sign to men of His existence

    #295843
    jammin
    Participant

    the word is the mongenes huios

    begotten son or son of GOD (john 1.18)

    case closed

    #295850
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi Jammin,
    Yes the WORD of God has explained God.
    Thank God Jesus was a clean and obedient vessel for God

    #295862
    jammin
    Participant

    yes nick,

    thank GOD bec he opened your mind and now you believe that the word in john 1.1 is the son of GOD.
    praise GOD!

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