John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 601 through 620 (of 25,993 total)
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  • #54013

    Quote (942767 @ May 29 2007,10:01)

    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 28 2007,18:22)
    94

    You say…

    Quote

    But let me just ask you the following questions.  Did the body of Jesus exist before before he was born of the Virgin Mary?  And if we are saying “the body of Jesus”.  Who then is Jesus?


    There are many Hebrew scriptures that show Christ appeared to many before he came in the flesh.

    Dan 3:25 just one example…

    He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God.

    I encourage you to listen to some of these messages with open heart!

    http://www.eadshome.com/Jesuslessons.htm

    Blessings

    :)


    Hi WJ:

    And so, you are saying by the above statement and scripture that Jesus already had a body before he was born of  the virgin Mary?


    94

    No. Does he have to have a natural body to exist. Are not we Spirit beings who has a soul and lives in a body?

    We don’t know exactly what he was, but we know he was in the “Form” of God. Phil 2:6, and he was with God. John 1:1 and Jn 17:5.

    John 1:14
    And the Word was made flesh, and *dwelt among us*, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

    The word “dwelt” is ‘skenoo’ which means…

    1) to fix one's tabernacle, have one's tabernacle, abide (or live) in a tabernacle (or tent), tabernacle

    It comes from the root, ‘skēnos’ which means…

    1) a tabernacle, a tent
    2) metaph. of the human body, in which the soul dwells as in a tent, and which is taken down at death

    So the word that was with God and was God was tabernacled among us.

    Blessings

    #54015
    Not3in1
    Participant

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 30 2007,07:51)
    Hi Not3,
    Christ was before John the baptist, David and Abraham. How can this be?


    How can what be?

    #54017
    Not3in1
    Participant

    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 30 2007,08:32)

    Quote (Not3in1 @ May 30 2007,07:46)
    Also since no man had seen God at any time and Jesus was also man and had seen God, then the question would be when did he see God?
    *************************************************************
    WJ, the verse doesn't say that Jesus saw God, it says “…..he hath declared him.”  Jesus made God known.  Because no one had seen the Father – Jesus made him known.  Anyway, that's my take.


    not3

    Then what does this scripure mean to you…

    Jn 6:46
    *Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father*.

    ???   ???  ???


    Hi WJ, my point was that Jesus didn't see God before he was born. Of course he saw the Father after he existed.

    #54018
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi not3,

    Scripture says these things about the root of David. What does this mean to you?

    #54019
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Quote (Not3in1 @ May 30 2007,09:59)

    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 30 2007,08:32)

    Quote (Not3in1 @ May 30 2007,07:46)
    Also since no man had seen God at any time and Jesus was also man and had seen God, then the question would be when did he see God?
    *************************************************************
    WJ, the verse doesn't say that Jesus saw God, it says “…..he hath declared him.”  Jesus made God known.  Because no one had seen the Father – Jesus made him known.  Anyway, that's my take.


    not3

    Then what does this scripure mean to you…

    Jn 6:46
    *Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father*.

    ???   ???  ???


    Hi WJ, my point was that Jesus didn't see God before he was born.  Of course he saw the Father after he existed.


    Hi not3,
    When was this?
    If we are like him can we too?

    #54020
    Not3in1
    Participant

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 30 2007,10:00)
    Hi not3,

    Scripture says these things about the root of David. What does this mean to you?


    Says what things – I think I'm really missing something here. Forgive me, sometimes I am REALLY blonde :)

    #54021
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi not3,
    Looking at what Jesus said in Jn 8
    ” Then said the Jews unto him, Now we know that thou hast a devil. Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and thou sayest, If a man keep my saying, he shall never taste of death.
    53 Art thou greater than our father Abraham, which is dead? and the prophets are dead: whom makest thou thyself?
    54 Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God:
    55 Yet ye have not known him; but I know him: and if I should say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know him, and keep his saying.
    56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it , and was glad.
    57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
    58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.”

    He says he IS before Abraham.
    He is the root of David too.

    #54022
    Not3in1
    Participant

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 30 2007,10:01)

    Quote (Not3in1 @ May 30 2007,09:59)

    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 30 2007,08:32)

    Quote (Not3in1 @ May 30 2007,07:46)
    Also since no man had seen God at any time and Jesus was also man and had seen God, then the question would be when did he see God?
    *************************************************************
    WJ, the verse doesn't say that Jesus saw God, it says “…..he hath declared him.”  Jesus made God known.  Because no one had seen the Father – Jesus made him known.  Anyway, that's my take.


    not3

    Then what does this scripure mean to you…

    Jn 6:46
    *Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father*.

    ???   ???  ???


    Hi WJ, my point was that Jesus didn't see God before he was born.  Of course he saw the Father after he existed.


    Hi not3,
    When was this?
    If we are like him can we too?


    John 6:46
    No one has seen the Father except the one wh is from God; only he has seen the Father.”

    John 5: 37 – by implication.

    John 5:20
    “For the Father loves the Son and shows him all he does.”

    John 8:29
    “The one who sent me is with me; he has not left me alone…”

    There are more but that is a good start, no?

    #54023
    Not3in1
    Participant

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 30 2007,10:08)
    He says he IS before Abraham.
    He is the root of David too.


    Thanks for the clarification, Nick.

    How can someone be the “root” and the “offspring” of someone? Could this possibly relate to my understanding of John 1:1? I think it could.

    Because Jesus was God before he was born (in the same way a son is his father before he is conceived), then it is true of Jesus to say he is the ROOT of David. Then Jesus became the Son of God and the Son of man, and he is the OFFSPRING of David. This makes sense to me.

    #54024
    942767
    Participant

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 29 2007,16:12)
    Hi 94,
    Are you hoping for salvation by works?
    If so you may find mercy in the second resurrection but only if those works are done to those in Christ.
    If you follow the way of Jesus it is his works not ours, that save us.


    No Nick:

    His works paved the way for we to follow his example.  He obeyed God without sin even unto death on the cross.  We as born again Christians strive to obey his commandments but we make mistakes, and so, we are not saved works because we make mistakes, and so, if it were not for the shed blood of Jesus that washes away our sin when repent, we could not be saved.  

    It would be the same for any one who is saved including those illustrated as righteous in Matthew 25.  Ephesians 2:8
    For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:  
    2:9
    Not of works, lest any man should boast.  
    2:10
    For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.  

    Matt.7:21
    Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.  
    7:22
    Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?  
    7:23
    And then will I profess unto them *, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.  
    7:24
    Therefore whosoever * * heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:  
    7:25
    And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.

    John 14:6
    Jesus saith unto him, I am the way *, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

    #54028
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Quote (Not3in1 @ May 30 2007,10:18)

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 30 2007,10:08)
    He says he IS before Abraham.
    He is the root of David too.


    Thanks for the clarification, Nick.

    How can someone be the “root” and the “offspring” of someone?  Could this possibly relate to my understanding of John 1:1?  I think it could.

    Because Jesus was God before he was born (in the same way a son is his father before he is conceived), then it is true of Jesus to say he is the ROOT of David.  Then Jesus became the Son of God and the Son of man, and he is the OFFSPRING of David.  This makes sense to me.


    Hi Not3,
    I was not man before I became man??
    Roots do not mean offspring but precede branches which are their offspring

    #54029
    Not3in1
    Participant

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 30 2007,10:26)

    Quote (Not3in1 @ May 30 2007,10:18)

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 30 2007,10:08)
    He says he IS before Abraham.
    He is the root of David too.


    Thanks for the clarification, Nick.

    How can someone be the “root” and the “offspring” of someone?  Could this possibly relate to my understanding of John 1:1?  I think it could.

    Because Jesus was God before he was born (in the same way a son is his father before he is conceived), then it is true of Jesus to say he is the ROOT of David.  Then Jesus became the Son of God and the Son of man, and he is the OFFSPRING of David.  This makes sense to me.


    Hi Not3,
    I was not man before I became man??
    Roots do not mean offspring but precede branches which are their offspring


    God is the root of everything and every one.

    God produced offspring.

    Jesus is the root (because he came from the root and indeed “was” the root).

    Jesus is the offspring because he was born of God and Mary.

    #54030
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi not3,
    So when was Christ the root of David?
    When he was with God in the beginning as Word?

    #54032
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Quote (942767 @ May 30 2007,10:21)

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 29 2007,16:12)
    Hi 94,
    Are you hoping for salvation by works?
    If so you may find mercy in the second resurrection but only if those works are done to those in Christ.
    If you follow the way of Jesus it is his works not ours, that save us.


    No Nick:

    His works paved the way for we to follow his example.  He obeyed God without sin even unto death on the cross.  We as born again Christians strive to obey his commandments but we make mistakes, and so, we are not saved works because we make mistakes, and so, if it were not for the shed blood of Jesus that washes away our sin when repent, we could not be saved.  

    It would be the same for any one who is saved including those illustrated as righteous in Matthew 25.  Ephesians 2:8
    For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:  
    2:9
    Not of works, lest any man should boast.  
    2:10
    For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.  

    Matt.7:21
    Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.  
    7:22
    Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?  
    7:23
    And then will I profess unto them *, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.  
    7:24
    Therefore whosoever * * heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:  
    7:25
    And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.

    John 14:6
    Jesus saith unto him, I am the way *, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.


    Hi 94,
    Matt 25
    “31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
    32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
    33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
    34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
    35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
    36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
    37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee ? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
    38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee ?
    39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
    40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have DONE it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have DONE it unto me.”

    WORKS

    These are not those who came to the Father through Christ.

    The merciful here find mercy through their WORKS DONE to Christ.
    We should rather come to Christ and not HOPE for this mercy in the second resurrection general judgement. We should not have to face this judgement being priests and kings who have already passed from death to life. We should now know we are saved and by the Spirit given as downpayment.

    We should have reigned with Christ for 1000 years even before this event.

    #54040

    Quote (Not3in1 @ May 29 2007,10:38)

    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 29 2007,07:52)

    Quote (Not3in1 @ May 29 2007,06:33)
    Nick, thanks for pointing out that other versions can either justify our claims or they can shut them down.  We see what we want to see, sometimes.  We see what we pray is there…..  I am guilty of this as well.  We all have various glasses that we put on from time to time.  Each version, it seems, has it's own unique set of translators on board.  How else could some scriptures be seen as Jesus is God and others say no such thing?


    not3

    What scriptures that says Jesus is God and others say no such thing?

    Could you give me an example?

    ???


    This is not an exhaustive list, of course; my library is only so big.  

    John 1:1
    The following say Jesus is God:
    KJV, RV, NEB, TEV, NIV
    The following say Jesus is not God:
    Goodspeed, NWT

    John 1:18
    Jesus is God:
    NEBmg, TEV, NIV, NASB
    Jesus is not God:
    KJV, RV, RSV, NEB, Moffatt, Goodspeed, TEVmg, NIVmg, MLB, NWT

    Acts 20:28
    Jesus is God:
    KJV, Goodspeed, NIV, MLB, NASB
    Jesus is not God:
    RV, RSV, NEB, Moffatt, TEV, NWT

    Romans 9:5
    Jesus is God:
    KJV, NIV, MLB
    Jesus is not God:
    RV, RSV, NEB, Moffatt, Goodspeed, TEV, NWT, NASB

    2 Thess. 1:12
    Jesus is God:
    NIVmg
    Jesus is not God:
    All others

    Titus 2:13
    Jesus is God:
    RV, RSV, NEB, Goodspeed, TEV, NIV, MLB, NASB
    Jesus is not God:
    KJV, RVmg, RSVmg, NEBmg, Moffatt, NWT

    Heb. 1:8
    Jesus is God:
    KJV, RV, RSV, NEB, TEV, NIV, MLB, NASB
    Jesus is not God:
    RSVmg, NEBmg, Moffatt, Goodspeed, NWT

    2 Peter 1:1
    Jesus is God:
    RV, RSV, NEB, Moffatt, Goodspeed, NIV, MLB, NASB
    Jesus is not God:
    KJV, RVmg, NWT

    Mg = margin

    For me, there is enough proof here to doubt these “proof” texts.  If these translator's cannot agree…….


    not3

    Nice try!

    But none of the versions you mention says “Jesus is not God”.

    The translators may have differed in the translating of the versus you mentioned, but in fact many of them while they didnt translate Jesus as God in one verse did in another.

    Not to mention that some of the translations that you mention have serious credibility problems.

    John 1:1 for instance.

    Goodspeed not credible.
    http://www.bible-researcher.com/goodspeed.html

    NWT JWS translation. Not credible. No qualified Hebrew or Greek scholars!

    The TEV (Good news bible) for instance is rejected by most conservative scholars and evangelist for good reasons.
    The Good News Bible was primarilly used by JWS until they wrote the corrupted NWT.

    http://www.bible-researcher.com/tev.html

    The NEB and Moffat's MLB is rejected and questionable!

    http://www.bible-researcher.com/neb.html

    http://www.bible-researcher.com/moffatt.html

    One thing is for sure, John 1:1 and John 20:28 is accepted as Jesus being God in all of the major translations. Even the NWT says he was a god!

    So not3 since there is no version that says “Jesus is not God”, yet there are numerous versions that says he is, why would you side with the “he is not God side”?

    ???

    #54041
    942767
    Participant

    Hi WJ:

    As I said to you when I have a question about scripture I go to God in prayer and ask Him for understanding.  He has spoken to me in times past in and audible voice, and I find that he speaks pretty good English.  Also, he has spoken to me through prophets when he needed to correct me.

    And as part of my morning prayer routine, I ask God every day to correct me if I am teaching any thing that is not his word or doing any thing that is not his will, and having had the experience that I have mentioned above.  I know that He will correct me if I am wrong.

    And I respect the work that the 600 sholars have done in giving us multiple English translations of the bible.  But they make mistakes, and God doesn't make mistakes.  He knows what he intended by the scripture that I question.  And if scholars say that Jesus pre-existed as a sentient person before he was born of the Virgin Mary, and if they say that there is such a thing as the “trinity”, they have made a mistake.

    There may have been visions of the Lord Jesus in the Old Testament but that is what they were they were visions of things to come.  There are also many prophetic scriptures about the coming of Jesus, but they are prophetic because He was not at that time a reality.

    And so, the scripture tells us that he was conceived of the Holy Ghost, and that he was born an infant.  He came from heaven here in that he was conceived of the Holy Ghost, and so he was with the Father here in what way?  He was in bodily form and entered the womb? No, the scripture states that he was conceived of the Holy Ghost.

    And so, please show me how he was pre-existent.

    #54044

    Quote (942767 @ May 30 2007,11:54)
    Hi WJ:

    As I said to you when I have a question about scripture I go to God in prayer and ask Him for understanding.  He has spoken to me in times past in and audible voice, and I find that he speaks pretty good English.  Also, he has spoken to me through prophets when he needed to correct me.

    And as part of my morning prayer routine, I ask God every day to correct me if I am teaching any thing that is not his word or doing any thing that is not his will, and having had the experience that I have mentioned above.  I know that He will correct me if I am wrong.

    And I respect the work that the 600 sholars have done in giving us multiple English translations of the bible.  But they make mistakes, and God doesn't make mistakes.  He knows what he intended by the scripture that I question.  And if scholars say that Jesus pre-existed as a sentient person before he was born of the Virgin Mary, and if they say that there is such a thing as the “trinity”, they have made a mistake.

    There may have been visions of the Lord Jesus in the Old Testament but that is what they were they were visions of things to come.  There are also many prophetic scriptures about the coming of Jesus, but they are prophetic because He was not at that time a reality.

    And so, the scripture tells us that he was conceived of the Holy Ghost, and that he was born an infant.  He came from heaven here in that he was conceived of the Holy Ghost, and so he was with the Father here in what way?  He was in bodily form and entered the womb? No, the scripture states that he was conceived of the Holy Ghost.

    And so, please show me how he was pre-existent.


    94

    You say…

    Quote
    And so, please show me how he was pre-existent.

    There is nothing more I can say. I have shown you what is written. You have made up your mind that God has given you “New, Exclusive” revelation in contrast to what is written.

    Yow live in dangerous territory 94. If something is revealed to you outside or against scripture then it is not from God.

    The mistake is not made by the translators but by a lying spirit that speaks to those who appose what is written.

    2 Tim 3:16
    [B*]All scripture is given by inspiration of God*[/B], and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

    2 Peter 2:
    19 We have also a *more sure word of prophecy*; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:
    20 Knowing this first, that *no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation*.
    21 For the prophecy came not in old time *by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost*.

    When you say God has spoken to you in contrast to what is written, I say God does no such thing!

    There is more evidence 94 to show his pre-existence than not.

    Blessings

    #54046

    Quote (Not3in1 @ May 30 2007,09:59)

    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 30 2007,08:32)

    Quote (Not3in1 @ May 30 2007,07:46)
    Also since no man had seen God at any time and Jesus was also man and had seen God, then the question would be when did he see God?
    *************************************************************
    WJ, the verse doesn't say that Jesus saw God, it says “…..he hath declared him.”  Jesus made God known.  Because no one had seen the Father – Jesus made him known.  Anyway, that's my take.


    not3

    Then what does this scripure mean to you…

    Jn 6:46
    *Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father*.

    ???   ???  ???


    Hi WJ, my point was that Jesus didn't see God before he was born.  Of course he saw the Father after he existed.


    not3

    Jn 1:18
    No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

    1 Jn 4:12
    No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us

    Jn 6:46
    *Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father*.

    Do you believe scriptures contradict?

    How could Jesus have seen the Father if he was just a mere man?

    And how could he have seen the Father unless it was before he was found in fashion as a man? Phil 2

    ???

    #54047

    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 30 2007,12:13)

    Quote (942767 @ May 30 2007,11:54)
    Hi WJ:

    As I said to you when I have a question about scripture I go to God in prayer and ask Him for understanding.  He has spoken to me in times past in and audible voice, and I find that he speaks pretty good English.  Also, he has spoken to me through prophets when he needed to correct me.

    And as part of my morning prayer routine, I ask God every day to correct me if I am teaching any thing that is not his word or doing any thing that is not his will, and having had the experience that I have mentioned above.  I know that He will correct me if I am wrong.

    And I respect the work that the 600 sholars have done in giving us multiple English translations of the bible.  But they make mistakes, and God doesn't make mistakes.  He knows what he intended by the scripture that I question.  And if scholars say that Jesus pre-existed as a sentient person before he was born of the Virgin Mary, and if they say that there is such a thing as the “trinity”, they have made a mistake.

    There may have been visions of the Lord Jesus in the Old Testament but that is what they were they were visions of things to come.  There are also many prophetic scriptures about the coming of Jesus, but they are prophetic because He was not at that time a reality.

    And so, the scripture tells us that he was conceived of the Holy Ghost, and that he was born an infant.  He came from heaven here in that he was conceived of the Holy Ghost, and so he was with the Father here in what way?  He was in bodily form and entered the womb? No, the scripture states that he was conceived of the Holy Ghost.

    And so, please show me how he was pre-existent.


    94

    You say…

    Quote
    And so, please show me how he was pre-existent.

    There is nothing more I can say. I have shown you what is written. You have made up your mind that God has given you “New, Exclusive” revelation in contrast to what is written.

    Yow live in dangerous territory 94. If something is revealed to you outside or against scripture then it is not from God.

    The mistake is not made by the translators but by a lying spirit that speaks to those who appose what is written.

    2 Tim 3:16
    [B*]All scripture is given by inspiration of God*[/B], and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

    2 Peter 2:
    19 We have also a *more sure word of prophecy*; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:
    20 Knowing this first, that *no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation*.
    21 For the prophecy came not in old time *by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost*.

    When you say God has spoken to you in contrast to what is written, I say God does no such thing!

    There is more evidence 94 to show his pre-existence than not.

    Blessings


    94

    I reiterate.

    There is “No evidence” thats says Jesus did not exist before Abraham and the creation.

    :)

    #54048
    Not3in1
    Participant

    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 30 2007,11:51)
    Nice try!

    But none of the versions you mention says “Jesus is not God”.


    Well, thanks for recognizing that I tried. :)

    WJ, even if Jesus himself told you that he wasn't God, but that he was God's Son – you wouldn't believe him. And why should you? The great religious men of Jesus' day didn't either.

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