John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 621 through 640 (of 25,993 total)
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  • #54049

    Quote (Not3in1 @ May 30 2007,12:33)

    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 30 2007,11:51)
    Nice try!

    But none of the versions you mention says “Jesus is not God”.


    Well, thanks for recognizing that I tried.  :)

    WJ, even if Jesus himself told you that he wasn't God, but that he was God's Son – you wouldn't believe him.  And why should you?  The great religious men of Jesus' day didn't either.


    Not3

    Likewise God through the scriptures has shown you Jesus is God but you dont believe him!

    Jesus said…

    Jn 5:39
    Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are *they which testify of me*.

    The Bible is a biography of God, yet Jesus takes claim to it!!!

    :)

    #54050

    Quote (Not3in1 @ May 30 2007,12:33)

    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 30 2007,11:51)
    Nice try!

    But none of the versions you mention says “Jesus is not God”.


    Well, thanks for recognizing that I tried.  :)

    WJ, even if Jesus himself told you that he wasn't God, but that he was God's Son – you wouldn't believe him.  And why should you?  The great religious men of Jesus' day didn't either.


    Not3

    Actually the religous leaders believed Jesus was saying he was God or equal to him, and they didnt believe him either!

    :)

    #54051
    942767
    Participant

    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 30 2007,12:29)

    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 30 2007,12:13)

    Quote (942767 @ May 30 2007,11:54)
    Hi WJ:

    As I said to you when I have a question about scripture I go to God in prayer and ask Him for understanding.  He has spoken to me in times past in and audible voice, and I find that he speaks pretty good English.  Also, he has spoken to me through prophets when he needed to correct me.

    And as part of my morning prayer routine, I ask God every day to correct me if I am teaching any thing that is not his word or doing any thing that is not his will, and having had the experience that I have mentioned above.  I know that He will correct me if I am wrong.

    And I respect the work that the 600 sholars have done in giving us multiple English translations of the bible.  But they make mistakes, and God doesn't make mistakes.  He knows what he intended by the scripture that I question.  And if scholars say that Jesus pre-existed as a sentient person before he was born of the Virgin Mary, and if they say that there is such a thing as the “trinity”, they have made a mistake.

    There may have been visions of the Lord Jesus in the Old Testament but that is what they were they were visions of things to come.  There are also many prophetic scriptures about the coming of Jesus, but they are prophetic because He was not at that time a reality.

    And so, the scripture tells us that he was conceived of the Holy Ghost, and that he was born an infant.  He came from heaven here in that he was conceived of the Holy Ghost, and so he was with the Father here in what way?  He was in bodily form and entered the womb? No, the scripture states that he was conceived of the Holy Ghost.

    And so, please show me how he was pre-existent.


    94

    You say…

    Quote
    And so, please show me how he was pre-existent.

    There is nothing more I can say. I have shown you what is written. You have made up your mind that God has given you “New, Exclusive” revelation in contrast to what is written.

    Yow live in dangerous territory 94. If something is revealed to you outside or against scripture then it is not from God.

    The mistake is not made by the translators but by a lying spirit that speaks to those who appose what is written.

    2 Tim 3:16
    [B*]All scripture is given by inspiration of God*[/B], and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

    2 Peter 2:
    19 We have also a *more sure word of prophecy*; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:
    20 Knowing this first, that *no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation*.
    21 For the prophecy came not in old time *by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost*.

    When you say God has spoken to you in contrast to what is written, I say God does no such thing!

    There is more evidence 94 to show his pre-existence than not.

    Blessings


    94

    I reiterate.

    There is “No evidence” thats says Jesus did not exist before Abraham and the creation.

    :)


    Hi WJ:

    I don't believe that he pre-existed his birth from the virgin Mary and obviously you do believe that he did, but what matters that he came into this world and gave his life that whosoever wants to be reconciled to God may do so, and also, I know that he exists now highly exalted at the right hand of God our Father and is the head of the Church, and he is my Lord and I love him and I will serve him to the best of my ability until I die or he comes for the church.

    Also, I realize that I am not a scholar, but I am content to be what ever God wants to make me.  Look what he did for Solomon for example.

    I am not preaching any thing that is contrary to scriptures.  I just understand that in the beginning God had a plan, and that plan was to make man in his own image.  He made all things that he made visible and invisible with him in mind.

    God Bless

    #54053
    kenrch
    Participant

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 30 2007,10:08)
    Hi not3,
    Looking at what Jesus said in Jn 8
    ” Then said the Jews unto him, Now we know that thou hast a devil. Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and thou sayest, If a man keep my saying, he shall never taste of death.
    53 Art thou greater than our father Abraham, which is dead? and the prophets are dead: whom makest thou thyself?
    54 Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God:
    55 Yet ye have not known him; but I know him: and if I should say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know him, and keep his saying.
    56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it , and was glad.
    57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
    58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.”

    He says he IS before Abraham.
    He is the root of David too.


    Well I would think so.  The Word was before all creation including Adam the first human.  The Word is the root of everything the Father is the Gardener who planted the seed (Word).

    #54060
    olive
    Participant

    Since some like to play around w/ scriptures. Let’s play. This is called the Trinitarian Trinity. The rules are quite simple. When scripture reads Christ, Jesus, Son they will replace it w/ God. Their rules not mine. Since the have no need for Christ and go straight to God status, this will be quite easy for them, others however might have a bit of difficulty.

    I will start:

    For God so loved the world that he sent his only begotten God…………

    Now, if you think this to be ‘unfair’ well you could always replace God w/ Christ…………………..

    For Christ so loved the world he sent his only begotten Son…………

    Humm………………

    What do you think, anyone really want to play this game, your salvation depends on it.

    blessings

    #54063
    Not3in1
    Participant

    Quote (kenrch @ May 30 2007,13:31)
    The Word is the root of everything the Father is the Gardener who planted the seed (Word).


    Nicely put, Ken.

    #54086

    Quote (olive @ May 30 2007,14:55)
    Since some like to play around w/ scriptures. Let’s play. This is called the Trinitarian Trinity. The rules are quite simple. When scripture reads Christ, Jesus, Son they will replace it w/ God. Their rules not mine. Since the have no need for Christ and go straight to God status, this will be quite easy for them, others however might have a bit of difficulty.

    I will start:

    For God so loved the world that he sent his only begotten God…………

    Now, if you think this to be ‘unfair’ well you could always replace God w/ Christ…………………..

    For Christ so loved the world he sent his only begotten Son…………

    Humm………………

    What do you think, anyone really want to play this game, your salvation depends on it.

    blessings


    Olive

    Sure!

    And every time we read the word God we will replace it with Father!

    Jn 1:1
    In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with “Father”, and the Word was “Father”.

    14 And the “Father” was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

    Jn 20:28
    And Thomas answered and *said unto him*, My Lord and my “Father”.

    Acts 20:28
    Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of “Father”, which *he hath purchased with his own blood*.

    1 Tim 3:16
    And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: “Father” was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

    Heb 1:8
    But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O “Father”, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

    Isa 9:6
    For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counseller, The mighty “Father”, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

    :)

    #54091
    Not3in1
    Participant

    Jn 20:28
    And Thomas answered and *said unto him*, My Lord and my “Father”.
    ***********************
    That doesn't quite work, does it?

    Jesus is not the Father – even by Trinitarian standards.

    #54099

    Quote (Not3in1 @ May 30 2007,18:23)
    Jn 20:28
    And Thomas answered and *said unto him*, My Lord and my “Father”.
    ***********************
    That doesn't quite work, does it?  

    Jesus is not the Father – even by Trinitarian standards.


    not3

    :)

    I am praying for you! :)

    #54101
    Not3in1
    Participant

    Thanks, WJ. Do you know something? And I mean this sincerely…..you are my favorite Trinitarian!

    :)

    #54106
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    To those who read WJ's last post.

    The word God/Theos/Elohim/ is used of God the Father, the son, angels, men, Satan, idols. This has been taught here for years, so WJs example about it always being the Father is irrelevant in the context that he gives it.

    Yes you can replace God with Father when it is referring to the identity of the Most High. But Satan is called the God of this age. So he is also theos, but not the Most High Theos, but a type of theos nevertheless. He is also not the false theos of this age.

    God/theos can also be used in a qualitative way too, just like the word devil can.

    Jesus said “one of you is a devil”. Was he saying that Judas was Satan himself? No he was saying that Judas had the qualities of a devil, that he was diabolical. There is a difference between saying “THE devil” and “devil”. If we use the word “the”, then we refer to the person. If you say “a” you are referring to a class or a quality. In Greek there is no “a” for “one of you is a devil”. It says “one of you is devil”. But “a” is added in by the translators to complete the sentence in English.

    Likewise the last word God/theos used in John 1:1 doesn't have the definite article (the) so it can be understood as being a qualitative statement. Some translations even say “The Word was divine” in recognition of this. However, I would also like to add that putting the word “a” as the JWs teach is also presumptuous. The Word was divine. Not the Word was a divine or a god.

    So WJ saying that the Word was the Father is an irrelevant example in defense of Olives post that rightly stated that if the Trinity doctrine were correct, you should be able to replace the word Jesus with God, or God with Jesus.

    WJs defense doesn't take into consideration that the Word can be in quality or nature, theos, just as Judas was in quality “devil” and not in identity the Devil.

    If WJ denies that the Word was in quality theos, then he should also look at this supporting scripture:

    Philippians 2:5-11
    5 Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:
    6 Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
    7 but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness.
    8 And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death even death on a cross!

    #54108
    Adam Pastor
    Participant

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 29 2007,23:00)
    Hi not3,

    Scripture says these things about the root of David. What does this mean to you?


    Hi Nick … this was explained to before … here is a reminder:

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 05 2005,01:07)
    Scripture is precise and pure.
    If “root” means “offspring” then both words would not be used.
    If “root” means “offspring” then there is unnecessary repetition.
    It says “root and offspring of David” because they are different.


    Not at all Nick!
    They are not different.
    It is a Parallelism! They are many examples of parallelisms
    in scripture.
    It is a Hebraic way of emphasis, and it is definitely not an unnecessary repetition.

    E.g. (Psa 8:4)  What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him?

    man & 'son of man' are synonymous expressions. The psalmist uses a parallelism to emphasize the point. See also Psa 144.3

    Also (Job 25:6)  How much less man, that is a worm? and the son of man, which is a worm?

    The above are not unnecessary repetition, the terms mean the same thing.

    Likewise, root and offspring are synonymous terms emphasizing the fact that the Messiah is indeed the Promised descendant/seed of David.

    As already pointed out to you, the Messiah is a root of Jesse; the promised root/descendant of Jesse …

    (Isa 11:10)  And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, …
    Also, (Isa 11:1)  And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots:

    Picture a family tree … Isaiah is prophesying of a particular 'branch' coming out of Jesse, who will be the Messiah!

    Root/Rod/Branch are all being used synonymously to denote a particular descendant of Jesse, who in turn would be a particular descendant of David, hence, root of David!

    BTW, the Greek word for 'root' in Rev 5.5, 22.16, Rom 5.12;
    is the same Greek word used for 'stem' & 'root(s)' in the LXX (Septuagint) version of Isa 11.1,10!

    i.e.
    (Isa 11:1)  And there shall come forth a rod out of the rhiza of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his rhiza:

    (Isa 11:10)  And in that day there shall be a rhiza of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.

    Also let me add the following definitions found from Bible software … conc. 'rhiza'

    [UBS Grk Dict.] root; descendant; source, cause (of evil)

    [Thayer's Lexicon]
    rhiza {hrid'-zah}
    Meaning: 1) a root 2) that which like a root springs from a root, a sprout, shoot 3) metaph. offspring, progeny
    Origin: apparently a primary word; TDNT – 6:985,985; n f
    Usage: AV – root 17; 17

    G4491 r`i,za rhiza {hrid'-zah}
    [LS Grk Lex.]
    35625 r`i,za
    III. metaph. the root or stock from which a family springs, Lat. stirps, Pind., Aesch., etc.; and so a race, family, Aesch., Eur., etc.

    [Friberg Grk Lex]
    04599 r`i,za … metaph. origin, source (RO 11.16-18); (2) fig. and Hebraistically, of a descendant as a shoot or sprout; offspring, scion (RO 15.12).

    Also the same Greek word is used for 'nativity' in the LXX version of Ezek 16:3 … And say, Thus saith Adonai YAHWEH unto Jerusalem; Thy birth and thy nativity is of the land of Canaan;

    Therefore Rev 22:16 = Jesus is the descendant and offspring of David! No unnecessary repetition. Simply Emphasis!

    Hope the above clarifies …

    #54116
    Not3in1
    Participant

    Adam, my understanding is a little different from yours, I think.

    God is the root of everything. Jesus came “from” God as his Son (therefore, before Jesus was born, he was part of the “root” by means of God's seed within him). Jesus was then born into this world through Mary and became the “offspring” of David.

    This is how Jesus can be the root of David and the offspring of David. Maybe this is too simple, I don't know?

    #54117
    Not3in1
    Participant

    t8,
    Thanks for clarifying for us regarding WJ's post. Sometimes I think that everyone has their own definition of theos and can look to any book to confirm it. It seems it is used as one wills, sometimes? But thanks for making sense of it all for me, at least.

    By the way, in the “chat” thread I really enjoyed all your photography! I am a bit of a photographer myself. The artist in me really enjoyed your picture-perspectives. :) Dan and I will have to put NZ on our tour-ticket once the kids leave for college. I'll be sure to remember my ear-muffs for the wind……boy can it howl there (the video of the wind was cool).

    #54123

    *To all those who read t8s last post!*

    t8s statement that the word “Theos” applied to Yeshua is in a qualitative sence is a red herring.

    If Theos in the NT does not mean “The True God”, then how can we know when the scriptures refers to the Father.

    Answer of course is its context.

    Concerning the New Testament word “Theos”.

    1336 times the word “Theos” is found in the New Testament scriptures.

    All were translated “God” referring to the Father and Yeshua, except 13 times for “False gods” including satan and the man of sin and man, and eight times Godly, and once Yeshua was quoting the Psalmist which was still under Old covenant law. Agency was still in play.

    We know Paul used the word to describe the opposite of God, satan.

    We know Yeshua is true, therefore he is “True Theos”.

    So unless you resort to “Polytheism” which we know the Apostles were pure Monotheist, then you have two options…

    1.You accept what the scrptures say.

    Or

    2.You deny them or twist them to say what you want.

    I checked them all. Not once out of all 1336 times is there a mention of any Angel of God or man or king or ruler with the word “Theos”.

    *Neither is there any example of the word “Theos” ascribed to a living man or king or lord or angel of the most high *in that day* other than Yeshua*.

    Jn 1:1
    In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

    John knew exactly what the word “Theos” meant to him, because in every other place the word is used for Yeshua, he used this word when he could have used another?

    Do you think he would create this kind of confusion by using “Theos” in John 1:1 as well as John 20:28?

    Why didnt he use “chrematizo, Acts 10:22, Heb 11:7”

    or

    “theios, 2 Pet 1:3,4, which by the way is used by Peter for divine nature and power, which t8 trys to force this word to mean that we are equal to Yeshua in substance and being. Yeshua *is* divine, “Theos”,  not “Theios” which is what we share”, This word is found only these 3 times in scripture. Which describes his nature and not his being.

    or

    “theotes, Col 2:9”

    or

    “theiotes” Rom 1:20″

    So ask yourself why didnt John use one of these words instead of “Theos” in John 1:1?

    Why didn't Paul or Peter or Timothy or Titus, or the writer of Hebrews 1:8 use one of the other words?

    You talk about being consistant with the word “Theos”.

    It seems to me that being consistant with “Theos” is exactly what over 500 Greek and Hebrew scholars did when they translated  John 1:1.

    So the qestion is do we believe the Scriptures and the Apostles or not?

    Again “Theos” is only used by the Apostles in New Testament scriptures for The Father and Yeshua and the opposites of God or false Gods.

    Concerning the Unitarian interpretation of 1 Cor 8:6,

    Here is what Paul the Hebrew of the Hebrews a strict monotheistic Jew acknowledged…

    1 Cor 8:
    4 Therefore concerning the eating of things sacrificed to idols, we know that there is no such thing as an idol in the world, and *that there is no God but one*.
    5 For even *if there are so-called gods* whether in heaven or on earth, as indeed there are many gods and many lords, (we know there is only “one Lord, the Father and Yeshua).
    6 yet *for us there is but one God*, the Father, from whom are all things and we {exist} for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him.
    7 *However not all men have this knowledge*; but some, being accustomed to the idol until now, eat {food} as if it were sacrificed to an idol; and their conscience being weak is defiled.

    Let’s break it down.

    Vrs 4.
    Paul a strict Monotheist, speaks of Idols as being “no such thing” in the world, and that “there is NO GOD but ONE”

    Vrs 5.
    Paul says they are “So called gods”, and many of them “gods and lords. We know there is only “ONE LORD” the Father and Yeshua”. Do you object to that?

    Vrs 6.
    Paul declares “Yet for us there is but *ONE GOD*”. If you say Jesus is “A” God and he is your “LORD”, then that means also he is your God.

    Then in the same breath Paul goes on to say the “ONE GOD” is the Father, from whom are all things “and” the Lord Jesus Christ “by whom are all things” and we exist through Him.

    If we “by Jesus” exist through him and are Gods children and belong to Jesus or God then Jesus is also God. Can you see that?

    Vrs 7.
    Then Paul declares that not all men have this knowledge.
    Then he goes back to the Idols he was speaking of in Vrs 4.

    What knowledge do men lack?

    It’s the knowledge that there are “so called gods” and “idols” that men worship but “for us” there is only *ONE God*, and *ONE LORD*, The Father and Yeshua!

    The context plainly shows the contrast of other so called “gods and lords” with the Father and Yeshua.

    Tell me , why would Paul speaking to Corinth who was battling with Polytheism and Paganism mention in the same breath The Father and Lord Jesus sharing the same attributes?

    He couples them together between scriptures condemning Idol worship and Polytheism.

    So truly this Jesus is as the scriptures proclaims!

    He is God in the flesh reconciling the world unto himself

    He is YHWH, the LORD from heaven!

    But that is another topic!

    Question for you t8?

    *Is there any example of the word “Theos” ascribed to a living man or king or lord or Angel of the most high *in New Testament sciptures* other than Yeshua*?. ???

    If not then maybe you should accept what the Apostles and the scriptures say concerning Yeshua being True “Theos”, and that all others are opposites or false.!!!

    1 John 5:
    And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. *This is the true God, and eternal life*.
    21 Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen.

    Is Jesus your “Idol”?

    He should be!!!

    Selah :D

    #54128
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi W,
    The fear of polytheism is no excuse for adding to scripture and using greek LOGIC to state that  because of these things THEREFORE both Christ and his Father MUST BE the ONE GOD. You need to find the truth by better ways.

    We have one God.
    Christ is our given Lord.
    Christ is an idol to so many.

    1Jn5
    21Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen.

    #54131

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 31 2007,06:46)
    Hi W,
    The fear of polytheism is no excuse for adding to scripture and using greek LOGIC to state that  because of these things THEREFORE both Christ and his Father MUST BE the ONE GOD. You need to find the truth by better ways.

    We have one God.
    Christ is our given Lord.
    Christ is an idol to so many.

    1Jn5
    21Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen.


    NH

    Open your eyes!

    You cant serve “Two” Masters.

    Matt 6:24
    No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other.

    Yet you call him your Lord and master! If he is not your God then the Jesus you follow is an “Idol” and you commit “Idolatry”!

    :O

    #54133
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi W,
    I do wonder why you choose as a user name here evidence that Jesus alone is your god and not the Father. Do you not follow Jesus in this? That does also suggest that Jesus is not your Lord, yet he was appointed as such for us..

    #54151
    Not3in1
    Participant

    WJ, thanks for your side of “Theos.”

    I read everyone's posts, but I confess, when they are too long or too packed full of factoids (greek/latin/spanish) :) I get frustrated easily and tend to start glossing over important information….. I guess along with the facts, maybe if you could tell a knock-knock joke or something to keep me awake, that would help? I'm only kidding. You have a lot of really good information here. I'll read it over again tonight when it's more quiet. Thanks, WJ.

    #54154

    Quote (Not3in1 @ May 31 2007,10:23)
    WJ, thanks for your side of “Theos.”  

    I read everyone's posts, but I confess, when they are too long or too packed full of factoids (greek/latin/spanish) :)  I get frustrated easily and tend to start glossing over important information…..  I guess along with the facts, maybe if you could tell a knock-knock joke or something to keep me awake, that would help?  I'm only kidding.  You have a lot of really good information here.  I'll read it over again tonight when it's more quiet.  Thanks, WJ.


    not3

    You are welcome!

    :)

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