John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 581 through 600 (of 25,993 total)
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  • #53955
    Not3in1
    Participant

    Still lacking…..  However my example that I have shared before also works:  using my son (Nathan) and his father (Dan) as examples.

    In the beginning was Nathan, and Nathan was with Dan, and Nathan was Dan.  Nathan was in the beginning with Dan.

    How was Nathan “with” Dan before he was born?  The same way Jesus was “with” his Father before he was born.

    #53956
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Quote (Not3in1 @ May 29 2007,18:45)
    Maybe I would rewrite it like this:
    He is the unique expression, as a human being, of the Wisdom of God.  It was the Wisdom of God which existed from the beginning, and that Wisdom became a person at the conception of Jesus.


    Hi not3,
    Many have thought so from Prov8 and Christ is shown in scripture to be the Wisdom of God, but prov 8 shows in fact that Wisdom is inherent in all creation. The monogenes Son is more than wisdom. He is the unique beloved Son.

    #53958
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi Not3,
    Loins and all that stuff.
    Heb 7
    ” 5And verily they that are of the sons of Levi, who receive the office of the priesthood, have a commandment to take tithes of the people according to the law, that is, of their brethren, though they come out of the loins of Abraham:

    6But he whose descent is not counted from them received tithes of Abraham, and blessed him that had the promises.

    7And without all contradiction the less is blessed of the better.

    8And here men that die receive tithes; but there he receiveth them, of whom it is witnessed that he liveth.

    9And as I may so say, Levi also, who receiveth tithes, payed tithes in Abraham.

    10For he was yet in the loins of his father, when Melchisedec met him. “

    God had a living relationship with the Word-more than being in the loins.
    He is the beloved son sent into the vineyard of God.

    #53963
    Cult Buster
    Participant

    In John 1:1 it states “. . . kai theos en ho logos”. This is usually translated as “. . . and the Word was God.”

    The original word order in Greek, however, is “. . . and God was the Word.”

    If when the predicate nominative precedes the verb and subject in Greek as it is the case here, the predicate nominative (in this case “theos”)  it cannot grammatically have a definite article. If it did have a definite article, then its position in the sentence would make it the subject of the sentence.

    Also however, when the predicate nominative precedes the verb and subject in the Greek, then the grammatical and stylistic effect is to emphasize the meaning of the predicate nominative and to give it the added effect of being a very forceful adjective.

    So the statement in John 1:1 means that the Word, which is Jesus, is God–not just “a god,” like the Jehovah's Witnesses highly biased NWT suggests.

    John 1:1  literally translated reads: “In beginning was the word, and the word was with the God, and God was the word.”

    Notice that it says “God was the word.” This is the actual word for word translation. It is not saying that “a god was the word.” as the corrupted NWT states. That wouldn't make sense. Let's break it down into three statements.

    “In beginning was the word…”
    (en arche en ho logos)
    A very simple statement that the Word was already there in the beginning.

    “and the word was with the God…”
    (kai ho logos en pros ton theon)
    This same Word was with God.

    “and God was the word.”
    (kai theos en ho logos)

    — Properly translated as “and the Word was God.”

    Joh 1:14  And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, This obviously identifies Jesus as The Word (Jehovah God)

    The Gospel of John emphasizes the divinity of Christ from beginning to end. It starts with John 1:1 and climaxes in Thomas’ confession of faith when he says “My Lord and my God” (John 20:28).

    In other words, John’s Gospel begins by declaring Jesus Christ to be God the Word in flesh and to be fully divine and concludes with.

    Joh 20:28  And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
     :O

    #53966
    kenrch
    Participant

    The scripture plainly says ~Word~ not Son, not even being.

    God's Word that HE used to create everything was in the beginning~Surprised?~ God speaks things into existance.

    Rom 4:17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.

    Big Surprise uh!

    Gen 1:3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

    So in the beginning (of creation) there was the Word (God spoke) This word that God used was (Naturally) With God.

    Because the Word came FROM GOD that word was God.

    The Word that God used became flesh with a little help from Mary. :) Whatever the Father thought, Jesus spoke.

    Joh 8:28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.

    Joh 12:49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.

    Joh 5:19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.

    Luk 12:10 And everyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but the one who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven.

    The Word said that it is God who tells Him what to say. Does the Holy Spirit sometimes tell you what to say?

    Luk 12:12 for the Holy Spirit will teach you in that very hour what you ought to say.”

    Luk 10:21 In that same hour he rejoiced in the Holy Spirit and said, “I thank you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that you have hidden these things from the wise and understanding and revealed them to little children; yes, Father, for such was your gracious will.

    Jesus was the result of the Father's creation of the word to become human.

    The Word became flesh. And dwelt among us!

    Joh 1:14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.

    Jesus was the result of the word becoming flesh. Jesus being the very WORD of God certianly had the Spirit without measure.

    Is thought an unspoken word?

    IHN&L,

    Ken

    #53969
    Not3in1
    Participant

    Quote (Cult Buster @ May 30 2007,00:46)
    In John 1:1 it states “. . . kai theos en ho logos”. This is usually translated as “. . . and the Word was God.”

    The original word order in Greek, however, is “. . . and God was the Word.”

    If when the predicate nominative precedes the verb and subject in Greek as it is the case here, the predicate nominative (in this case “theos”)  it cannot grammatically have a definite article. If it did have a definite article, then its position in the sentence would make it the subject of the sentence.

    Also however, when the predicate nominative precedes the verb and subject in the Greek, then the grammatical and stylistic effect is to emphasize the meaning of the predicate nominative and to give it the added effect of being a very forceful adjective.


    Hi CB,

    There is no english translation for Logos. No Greek scholar will deny strict idea of the Logos being a person. Remember that “Logos” is a NOUN (person, place OR thing). In Latin, the Logos can mean “reason.” Even the great Tertullian believed the Logos to mean the wisdom and mind of God!

    If the Logos can be interpreted as a thing, such as an idea or plan, wouldn't it be fair to say that your interpretation is only one way to see it?

    #53970
    Not3in1
    Participant

    Quote (Cult Buster @ May 30 2007,00:46)
    Notice that it says “God was the word.” This is the actual word for word translation.


    Again, because there is no english counter for Logos, we are to assume that “word” is Jesus? So in the quote above you are asserting that “God was Jesus.”? Is this correct? This sounds wrong to my ears for many reasons. Can God be spoken of in past tense?

    #53972
    Not3in1
    Participant

    Quote (Cult Buster @ May 30 2007,00:46)
    John 1:1 literally translated reads: “In beginning was the word, and the word was with the God, and God was the word.”


    Because LOGOS is a noun (a person, place or thing), let's try something for fun.

    Let's replace Logos with “candy.”

    In the beginning was candy, and candy was with God, and God was candy.

    Now let's also use the Trinitarian way of understanding “God” and replace some words to see if they make sense.

    In the beginning was God the Son, and God the Son was with God the Father – God the Son – and God the Holy Spirit, and God the Father – God the Son – and God the Holy Spirit was God the Son.

    OR….

    In the beginning was Jesus, and Jesus was the Father, and the Father was Jesus.

    The scary point I'm trying to make is that if words mean anything, one must be careful about choosing what Logos means. There are a variety of meanings attached to it's word. Scholars debate this heavily. Shouldn't we (I'm assuming none of us are famed scholars), consider and dig out all possibilities?

    When we feel free to substitute the meaning of Logos to what “we” feel it means, or use the “God-by-deduction” method… sometimes scripture becomes a mess!

    #53973
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi Not3,
    John told us that the Word had become flesh and he had seen his glory, the glory of the only begotten. If the Word became flesh then the Word existed prior to becoming flesh, and that Word was with the Father as three verses tell us. So it seems pretty clear that Christ is that glorious being who was with God. Christ on earth prior to the Jordan had no obvious glory as Is 53 shows, so that glory, which he asked his Father to give him back, precedes his birth. Again Rev 19 seems to show the son of Man returning as the man from heaven and he has the Word written on him as identification as the king of kings.

    #53979
    Not3in1
    Participant

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 30 2007,05:37)
    If the Word became flesh then the Word existed prior to becoming flesh


    You are chosing that the Logos means Jesus. OK, but look at what you are saying when the Word became flesh.

    What the Word BECAME is flesh…….

    This only implies that “Jesus” existed prior to becoming flesh becaus you want it to. You have to read this into the passage, for it does not say anything of the kind.

    Again, “Logos/the Word” has other meanings as I have shown. What about those meanings? Should we simply erase the possibilities of those meanings because they do not line up with our theology? I don't know….

    #53980
    Not3in1
    Participant

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 30 2007,05:37)
    So it seems pretty clear that Christ is that glorious being who was with God. Christ on earth prior to the Jordan had no obvious glory as Is 53 shows, so that glory, which he asked his Father to give him back, precedes his birth.


    John 1:14
    “…….and we have seen is glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father….”

    When Jesus was born he received glory according to above verse.

    #53982
    Not3in1
    Participant

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 30 2007,05:37)
    Again Rev 19 seems to show the son of Man returning as the man from heaven and he has the Word written on him as identification as the king of kings.


    Rev. 19:13 shows that “The Word of God” is a name for Jesus. Whether God's word is written, spoken, or made flesh, it makes God known. As you know, Jesus has many names. Also, the “word/Word” of God is used in many ways to mean various things.

    #53989
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Quote (Not3in1 @ May 30 2007,06:06)

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 30 2007,05:37)
    So it seems pretty clear that Christ is that glorious being who was with God. Christ on earth prior to the Jordan had no obvious glory as Is 53 shows, so that glory, which he asked his Father to give him back, precedes his birth.


    John 1:14
    “…….and we have seen is glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father….”

    When Jesus was born he received glory according to above verse.


    Hi Not3,
    Not so in my opinion
    Jn1
    ” 14And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

    15John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me.

    16And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace.

    17For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

    18No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.”

    John the Baptist, the older cousin, said Christ was before him, and the verse aligns with 2Peter1

    “16For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.

    17For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

    18And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount.”
    and Matt 17
    ” 1And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart,

    2And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.

    3And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.

    4Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias.

    5While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.

    6And when the disciples heard it, they fell on their face, and were sore afraid.

    7And Jesus came and touched them, and said, Arise, and be not afraid. “

    So that glory was shown on the mountain. It certainly was never shown prior to the Jordan according to Is 53.

    #53995
    Not3in1
    Participant

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 30 2007,07:08)
    15John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me.

    And….

    So that glory was shown on the mountain. It certainly was never shown prior to the Jordan according to Is 53.


    Of course as the word/Word/Jesus/Plan the Christ was “before” John because God existed before John. Christ was derived from God. And because the Word (or whatever) existed “with” God and “was” God, it goes without saying that such would be before the Baptist.

    Question: if Jesus existed prior to his birth, and thus he was before John in the sense of age – how old was Jesus before he was re-incarnated into the Logos?

    Jesus was stamped with glory the minute he arrived on the scene. The very fact that he is the offspring of God gives him glory. Would you deny the Son of God glory at this birth? Those who came to pay him homage certainly did not.

    When a son of Royalty is born, they are automatically deemed Princes with all the rights on that sonship. Jesus is no different. When he received the Spirit without measure, he was given “access” to power and knowledge. Much like the coming-of-age Prince would be included in his Father's affairs from that point on. Certainly as a babe, the Prince could not take over for his Father? Certainly as a toddler, Jesus could not minister and carry out his duties as Savior of the world. The Father saw Jesus was ready at his baptism and called him into service – giving him the tools he needed. This makes sense to me. Am I completely off track here?

    #53997

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 30 2007,07:08)

    Quote (Not3in1 @ May 30 2007,06:06)

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 30 2007,05:37)
    So it seems pretty clear that Christ is that glorious being who was with God. Christ on earth prior to the Jordan had no obvious glory as Is 53 shows, so that glory, which he asked his Father to give him back, precedes his birth.


    John 1:14
    “…….and we have seen is glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father….”

    When Jesus was born he received glory according to above verse.


    Hi Not3,
    Not so in my opinion
    Jn1
    ” 14And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

    15John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me.

    16And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace.

    17For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

    18No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.”

    John the Baptist, the older cousin, said Christ was before him, and the verse aligns with 2Peter1

    “16For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.

    17For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

    18And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount.”
    and Matt 17
    ”  1And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart,

    2And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.

    3And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.

    4Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias.

    5While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.

    6And when the disciples heard it, they fell on their face, and were sore afraid.

    7And Jesus came and touched them, and said, Arise, and be not afraid. “

    So that glory was shown on the mountain. It certainly was never shown prior to the Jordan according to Is 53.


    NH

    You say…

    Quote

    Hi Not3,
    Not so in my opinion
    Jn1
    ” 14And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

    15John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me.

    16And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace.

    17For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

    18No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.”

    Good point. Also since no man had seen God at any time and Jesus was also man and had seen God, then the question would be when did he see God?

    Before he came in the flesh or after he took on the likeness of of sinfull flesh and being found in the form of man?

    ???

    #53999
    Not3in1
    Participant

    Also since no man had seen God at any time and Jesus was also man and had seen God, then the question would be when did he see God?
    *************************************************************
    WJ, the verse doesn't say that Jesus saw God, it says “…..he hath declared him.” Jesus made God known. Because no one had seen the Father – Jesus made him known. Anyway, that's my take.

    #54000
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 30 2007,07:40)

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 30 2007,07:08)

    Quote (Not3in1 @ May 30 2007,06:06)

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 30 2007,05:37)
    So it seems pretty clear that Christ is that glorious being who was with God. Christ on earth prior to the Jordan had no obvious glory as Is 53 shows, so that glory, which he asked his Father to give him back, precedes his birth.


    John 1:14
    “…….and we have seen is glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father….”

    When Jesus was born he received glory according to above verse.


    Hi Not3,
    Not so in my opinion
    Jn1
    ” 14And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

    15John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me.

    16And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace.

    17For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

    18No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.”

    John the Baptist, the older cousin, said Christ was before him, and the verse aligns with 2Peter1

    “16For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.

    17For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

    18And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount.”
    and Matt 17
    ”  1And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart,

    2And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.

    3And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.

    4Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias.

    5While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.

    6And when the disciples heard it, they fell on their face, and were sore afraid.

    7And Jesus came and touched them, and said, Arise, and be not afraid. “

    So that glory was shown on the mountain. It certainly was never shown prior to the Jordan according to Is 53.


    NH

    You say…

    Quote

    Hi Not3,
    Not so in my opinion
    Jn1
    ” 14And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

    15John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me.

    16And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace.

    17For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

    18No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.”

    Good point. Also since no man had seen God at any time and Jesus was also man and had seen God, then the question would be when did he see God?

    Before he came in the flesh or after he took on the likeness of of sinfull flesh and being found in the form of man?

    ???


    Indeed W.

    #54001
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi Not3,
    Christ was before John the baptist, David and Abraham. How can this be?

    #54005

    94

    You say…

    Quote

    And my response is that I have not changed any of the scripture at all but I did use a definition in Stong's concordance for the word Logos.  I don't believe that Jesus existed as a sentient person before he was born of a virgin.  I know that I am not a scholar and I respect all the work that they did in translating the scriptures from the original language into English so that I can understand the scriptures, but when I have a question about something in the scriptures, I go to God and ask Him for understanding, and so I am not limited because I am not a scholar.  God answers my prayers.

    First of all as you know greek words just like words in any language can have more than one meaning.

    For instance…

    look at the Greek word “aggelos” , which means…
    a messenger, envoy, one who is sent, an angel, a messenger from God

    Almost exclusively the word is translated “Angels” and literally refers to Angels. 186 times you will find the word in the NT scriptures of that 179 times it is “Angels” and 7 times it is translated messenger.

    Example…

    Matt 1:20
    But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel (aggelos) of the LORD appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.

    Luke 7:27,28
    This is he, of whom it is written, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.
    For I say unto you, Among those that are born of women there is not a greater prophet than John the Baptist: but he that is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he.

    So do you think the translators should have held to the 179 times the context for “aggelos” was speaking of Angels and interpreted Luke 7:27,28 as an Angel from God. However we know John was not an Angel for he was born of a woman. Unless you believe like the JWS that Angels can take on human flesh.

    So the point being because the strongs concordance shows the meaning of Logos as being a saying or plan in no way means it has to be exclusively used in that way.

    John 1:1 and 1 Jn 1:1,2 and Rev. 19:13 and Lk 16:2 and Phil 4:7 shows the word logos used in a different way.

    You say you havn’t changed any scripture and yet you changed the meaning that the translators brought out or what the inspired writters wanted to convey.

    So am I to understand that you believe and trust your own judgment and ability to hear from God first, even if it contradicts the scriptures and what is written by more than 600 translators?

    You say…

    Quote
    I disagree with you on this point.  He spoke of drinking his blood which we know is not literal, but it is the remedy for sin.  Also, he ascended into heaven in his body after he had shed his blood and had risen from the dead, and so why would you say it was not pertinent to his coming down from heaven or returning back to heaven?


    Because trying to make the case that Jesus could not have pre-existed without a body therefore he could not have come down from heaven is not what John or Jesus meant when he said…

    Jn 6:62
    What and if ye shall see the *Son of man ascend up where he was before*?

    You say…

    Quote
    1 Cor 15: YLT
    45 so also it hath been written, `The first man Adam became a living creature,' the *last Adam is for a life-giving spirit*,
    46 but that which is spiritual is not first, but that which was natural, afterwards that which is spiritual.
    47 The first man is out of the earth, earthy; *the second man is the Lord out of heaven*;

    And by the above scripture are you saying that Jesus was already perfected when he came into the world?  What about Hebrews 5:8-9 which states:5:8
    Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;  
    5:9
    And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

     

    Absolutely! How could he make attonement for us unless he was the perfect sinless Lamb of God?

    Surely you are not incinuating Jesus was not perfect? He is and was the Spotless Lamb of God, the perfect sacrifice.

    Gods law demanded the sacrifice be without spot or blemish.

    Exod 12:5
    Your lamb shall be without blemish, a male of the first year: ye shall take it out from the sheep, or from the goats:

    Jn 14:30
    Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and *hath nothing in me*.

    Heb 4:15
    For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, *yet without sin*.

    Do you think the writer of Hebrews would write he had no sin and then in the next chapter say he needed perfecting?

    Heb 5:
    8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
    9 And being made *perfect*, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

    He was tempted like we were and learned what it was to be a man and submit in obedience through his sufferings

    “Perfect” Greek, ‘teleioo’ which means;
    1) to make perfect, complete
    a) to carry through completely, to accomplish, finish, bring to an end
    2) to complete (perfect)
    a) add what is yet wanting in order to render a thing full
    b) to be found perfect
    3) to bring to the end (goal) proposed
    4) to accomplish
    a) bring to a close or fulfilment by event
    1)of the prophecies of the scriptures

    He carried out completely the will of the Father and fulfilled all the scriptures concerning himself so he could be a our Faithful High Priest after the order of Melchisedec. Jesus was the perfect sinless Lamb , the only perfecting he needed was the carrying out of the Fathers will.

    You say…

    Quote

    I believe that God made every thing that he made with Jesus and we who are his disciples in mind.  He is God's heir and we are joint heirs with him.

    Hebrews 1      
    1:1
    God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,  
    1:2
    Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

    You didn’t answer my question.

    Do you believe Paul and John believed what you say, that he did not pre-exist his coming in the flesh?

    Notice the “By whom” he made the worlds in Heb 1:2?

    And again what is your explanation for all the pronouns ascribed to Jesus in a pre-existant state?

    The word “with” (Gr. pros) in Jn. 1.1 means “to, towards” when used with the accusative as it is here (Thayer, p.541). The word is generally translated “to” or “toward” (NKJV) or “unto” (KJV; see John 1:29,42,47; 2:3; 3:2,4,20,26). So this phrase cannot be referring to “something said” or a thought or a plan of God.

    Blessings!

    :)

    #54006

    Quote (Not3in1 @ May 30 2007,07:46)
    Also since no man had seen God at any time and Jesus was also man and had seen God, then the question would be when did he see God?
    *************************************************************
    WJ, the verse doesn't say that Jesus saw God, it says “…..he hath declared him.”  Jesus made God known.  Because no one had seen the Father – Jesus made him known.  Anyway, that's my take.


    not3

    Then what does this scripure mean to you…

    Jn 6:46
    *Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father*.

    ???   ???  ???

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