John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 5,021 through 5,040 (of 26,009 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #284980
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 15 2012,20:23)
    Ed,

    If you can use the words “OF” or “HIS”, then no.  The mind OF Pierre isn't Pierre, but HIS mind.

    The money OF Mike is not Mike, but HIS money.

    The thoughts OF Ed are not Ed, but HIS thoughts.

    The soul OF Gene is not Gene, but HIS soul.

    See how this works?


    edj

    are you a sociopath ?? because those guy s figure that everything is them ,them,them,yes them

    #284989
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Quote (Ed J @ Mar. 15 2012,07:34)

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 15 2012,06:35)
    Hi ED,
    The KJV version is so obtuse and bizzare.
    It seems to reverse the meaning in modern prose.


    Hi Nick,

    Why do you got your mind made up,
    that the “AKJV  Bible” is(?) faulty?

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org


    Hi Ed,
    We do not speak ye olde englishe.
    Of all the KJV verses this is least able to be understood.

    #284990
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 15 2012,08:38)

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 13 2012,21:15)
    Hi MB,
    No-Christ Jesus
    No-Christ Jesus
    No-Christ Jesus.

    Please be more disciplined and seek accuracy.


    Oh.  So the Word had the name “Jesus” even before it “merged with” Jesus of Nazareth?

    Be more disciplined, Nick.


    Hi MB,
    I am glad you understand that the Word became one with Jesus who became the anointed one, the Christ.

    The point I was making was that you used the word JESUS instead of what is written[CHRIST JESUS] when you discussed Phil 2.5f.

    #284991
    Ed J
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 15 2012,13:23)

    Quote (Ed J @ Mar. 14 2012,19:41)
    Hi Mike,

    Scenarios do portray ideas, but don't prove them.


    So then you have no problem whatsoever with us using them, right?  :)


    Hi Mike,

    Not at all, to illustrate their idea.
    But what I see instead is that people
    think that using them proves their case,
    which it clearly doesn't; that's the difference.

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

    #284994
    Ed J
    Participant

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 15 2012,14:13)

    Quote (Ed J @ Mar. 15 2012,07:34)

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 15 2012,06:35)
    Hi ED,
    The KJV version is so obtuse and bizzare.
    It seems to reverse the meaning in modern prose.


    Hi Nick,

    Why do you got your mind made up,
    that the “AKJV  Bible” is(?) faulty?

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org


    Hi Ed,
    We do not speak ye olde englishe.
    Of all the KJV verses this is least able to be understood.


    Hi Nick,

    That's a false assumption, the “AKJV Bible” is written on a fifth grade level. Some of the more modern
    versions are written: some on a sixth, some a seventh, and still others on an eighth grade level.

    English as we speak today, uses PAST, PRESENT, and FUTURE tenses expressed separately; this is not so with the 1611 King’s English.
    It seemed, therefore that since GOD isn’t limited by time or space, the old English from the King James era was perfect for translating
    “word for word”. Just as the arts embrace Shakespearian writings for their intrinsic value and superior prose, the King James translation
    has some of these qualities, being romantic and poetic as well. Words from the King James era also have multiple tenses built
    right into them for a more exact “word for word” translation.

    Let’s take a look at a few examples of multiple tense words: holpen, meetest and saith. Saith means: “is said and says”,
    meetest means: “is met, meets, and will meet”, and holpen means: “is helped and will help”. The original texts have
    many instances modern vernacular lacks the clarity of single words containing past, present, or future tenses combined.

    In modern English, the word “you” lacks exactness of meaning and is rarely used in the AKJV Bible.
    Modern usage of the word “you” could mean “an individual”,  “a couple of people”, or even
    “a large group of people”. 1611 lexicon is more precise with words such as “Ye” used
    for a group and “Thou” for an individual. Also words like thy, thee, and thine are
    among many such words used in the AKJV Bible. Without understanding
    of the originally written texts, the current reader wanting a modern
    word for word translation usually overlooks these “technicalities”.

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

    #285000
    jammin
    Participant

    Quote (Ed J @ Mar. 15 2012,05:11)

    Quote (Ed J @ Mar. 13 2012,23:50)
    Hi Jammin,

          the glory as of the only begotten of the Father (John 1:14)
          compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. (Romans 8:18)

    The Word of the oath, which was since the law,
    maketh the Son, who is consecrated for evermore. (Hebrews 7:28)

    1Pet.1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of
    incorruptible, by “The Word” of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

    Of his own will begat he us with “The Word” of truth,
    that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures. (James 1:18)

    God bless
    Ed J


    Hi Jammin,

    I guess the answer to your thread escapes you then, huh? (1Cor.2:11-14)

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org


    im not picking translations

    i want the verse to be clear to you.

    do you know what you are doing? when you read the word “word” ,you refer it to john1.1. but that is not the right meaning of the verse you posted.
    you should study hard.

    better luck next time.

    #285008
    Ed J
    Participant

    Hi Jammin,

    Are you now the judge of God's word? Along with
    believing that you are the authority of truth?

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

    #285009
    Ed J
    Participant

    Quote (Ed J @ Mar. 13 2012,23:50)
    Hi Jammin,

          the glory as of the only begotten of the Father (John 1:14)
          compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. (Romans 8:18)

    The Word of the oath, which was since the law,
    maketh the Son, who is consecrated for evermore. (Hebrews 7:28)

    1Pet.1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of
    incorruptible, by “The Word” of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

    Of his own will begat he us with “The Word” of truth,
    that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures. (James 1:18)

    God bless
    Ed J


    Hi Jammin,

    “The Word”(Ho Logos) is God's “HolySpirit”,
    Father of all the Sons of God! (Eph.4:4-6)

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

    #285053
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 15 2012,04:11)

    Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 13 2012,21:43)

    Quote (mikeboll @ 64)
    1.  Does Phil 2 teach that Jesus was existing in the form of God?  YES or NO?


    The answer is no.  The reason is the Greek verb is a present participle active and you are using the past tense.  


    Hmmmm…………..  So there's no possibility that it is an historical present?  Let's find out.

    Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 13 2012,21:43)

    Quote (mikeboll @ 64)
    Does Phil 2 teach that Jesus then emptied himself of this existence?  YES or NO?

    Obviously not since he is presently and will be continually in it.   That is another no.


    Hmmm…………..  I'm almost afraid to ask, but what do YOU suppose verse 7 is talking about then?  The Greek words refer to “emptying himself” or “making himself of no account”.  It is in the aorist tense, which is almost always translated into English as a simple past tense.  In fact, all of the following phrases are in the Greek aorist tense:

    ………did not consider equality with God…………..

    ……but emptied himself………

    ………..and took upon him the form of a servant…………

    …………and was made into the likeness of a human being……….

    ………and being found as a man………..

    ……….he humbled himself………..

    ……….and became obedient unto death………..

    Kerwin, what you are doing is equivalent to what the Trinitarians do with John 8:58.  The Trinitarian scholars are well aware of the idioms associated with translating Greek into English.  They are well aware that the present tense of “I am” in 8:58 should be translated as “I have been”, just like all of them translate the same present tense “I am” in John 14:9.  The Greek words in 14:9 are the present tense “I am with you”.  But, being aware of the idioms, the Trinitarian scholars translate as “I have been with you”.  As Greek expert Jason BeDuhn comments, “The majority of translations recognize these idiomatic uses of ‘I am’, and properly integrate the words into the context of the passages where they appear.  Yet when it comes to 8:58, they suddenly forget how to translate.”

    You are attempting to do the same thing here.  You are willing to throw the entire context of the passage out the window because of a present tense “loophole” you've found.  

    So let's look at your “present tense” understanding.  You assert that verse 6 teaches that Jesus IS NOW in the form of God?

    So then does verse 7 teach us that Jesus WILL BE emptying himself and WILL BE made into a human being?  Because verse 8 is going to cause you some trouble if that is your understanding.  (Unless of course you think Jesus WILL BE dying on a cross for us someday in the future.)

    Start with your present tense “IS NOW in the form of God”, and convey to me what the next two verses are telling you.


    Mike,

    You write a lot and I can only look up so much with the time I have available.   Here is the whole sentence we are addressing as translated in the New American Standard Bible.

    Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.

    The first clause is “Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus” and the only literal verb in the sentence is “have this attitude” and is a present imperative active meaning it is a command that is to be habitually and continually followed.  The second verb “was” is implied from the context and is not written down in the Greek and is therefore its existence and all that infers are highly subject to bias.   The idea expressed is, “be like Jesus Christ in your attitude,”

    The second idea expressed is “who being in the form of God,”.   The third clause has an aorist indicative”, which “is occasionally used to present a timeless, general fact.” In such cases it is often translated to a simple present.  The idea express therefore becomes “does not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,”  Once more in the fourth clause the verb is an aorist indicative and so the idea expressed is “but empties himself,”.
     
    The fifth clause has an  “Aorist participle”, which “usually suggest antecedent time to that of the main verb”.  I have not yet determined what the main verb of the sentence is.  The last clause also uses an “Aorist participle” but with a middle instead of active voice.  I believe both Aorist participles are properly translated to past tense but the later one is recursive.

    My main sources are here and here.

    #285054
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi Jammin,
    Yes Jesus Christ refers to his brothers as his children.[Jn 21.5]
    But the source of his Spirit is God.

    #285083
    jammin
    Participant

    Quote (Ed J @ Mar. 15 2012,16:27)

    Quote (Ed J @ Mar. 13 2012,23:50)
    Hi Jammin,

          the glory as of the only begotten of the Father (John 1:14)
          compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. (Romans 8:18)

    The Word of the oath, which was since the law,
    maketh the Son, who is consecrated for evermore. (Hebrews 7:28)

    1Pet.1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of
    incorruptible, by “The Word” of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

    Of his own will begat he us with “The Word” of truth,
    that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures. (James 1:18)

    God bless
    Ed J


    Hi Jammin,

    “The Word”(Ho Logos) is God's “HolySpirit”,
    Father of all the Sons of God! (Eph.4:4-6)

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org


    read in john 1.1 that the Word refers to the HOLY SPIRIT.

    stop making stories. you should be ashamed of yourself.

    #285084
    jammin
    Participant

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 15 2012,19:44)
    Hi Jammin,
    Yes Jesus Christ refers to his brothers as his children.[Jn 21.5]
    But the source of his Spirit is God.


    nick the topic is about john 1.1

    who is the WORD. and that is Christ.

    better luck next time boy

    #285089
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 15 2012,06:03)

    Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 14 2012,17:20)
    A servant that has the form of God and the likeness of mankind but who does not see equality with God something to be grasped.


    What the freak does that even mean, Kerwin?  ???

    This is why I now avoid the long, drawn out discussions with you.  You are willing to post complete nonsense to save your flawed doctrine.

    And I just don't have the patience to argue against crazy anymore.  Consider jammin's “great and logical” responses of “it says so in this flawed translation where they ADDED words into scripture, so therefore it must be true”.  Your argument here is equally as logical that that one he made.

    Neither one of them are worth the space on this site that they take up.


    Mike,

    I figured that would be clear to those with spiritual understanding as they know that Jesus is still a servant in the form of God's Spirit and the likeness of mankind's body.

    #285091
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (Ed J @ Mar. 15 2012,05:45)

    Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 15 2012,10:25)

    Quote (Ed J @ Mar. 15 2012,03:51)

    Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 15 2012,08:42)

    Quote (Ed J @ Mar. 15 2012,01:22)

    Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 15 2012,05:31)
    Pierre,

    I am sure of what I stated I was sure of but not those things I stated I was not.

    These words are all one sentence according to your translation.

    Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus: Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness.

    According to the underling Greek “attitude should be”, “being”, and part of “equality” are all present tense.  The rest of the verbs are aorists.

    So what I know is that we are instructed to currently be like minded with Christ who currently has the form of God and currently doesn't consider equality with God something to be grasped.  This tells me he did not empty himself of being in the form of God when he took on the form of a servant and was found in the likeness of mankind.


    Hi Kerwin,

    It would help you to understand the verse if the Greek
    was translated correctly; here is what the verse actually says…

    Philippians 2:5-6 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
    Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

    Ed J


    Ed J.

    It appears translators had difficulties with very basic language concepts.

    The King James translates the Greek into a longer sentence than Pierre's choice.

    Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

    The words “thought it not robbery to be equal with God:” looks hokey though it may have been fine for the time it was translated.    Others disagree on sentence structure of the words and I know too little of the Greek to say which is the correct translation.  I favor the one that is more consistent with what Scripture elsewhere tells me.


    Hi Kerwin,

    Which is what exactly?

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org


    Ed J.

    Jesus called Yahweh his God and therefore did not see equality with God something to be grasped.


    Hi Kerwin, but, that is NOT what the verse is saying?
     

    Christ Mind(117)  =  “Spirit of God”(117)  =  “God The Father”(117)  =  (117)”יהוה האלהים”

             Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:” (Phil 2:5)            
      “thought it not robbery to be equal with God:” (Phil 2:6)

                                     God's Signature  
                                    Proof of God=117
    GOD(26) → The Bible(63) → AKJV Bible(74) → The LORD JEHOVAH(151)

            יהוה=26 (God's Name: YHVH pronounced YÄ-hä-vā)
            YHVH=63 (God's Name יהוה translated into English)
            Jesus=74 (God's Son's name in English is: “Joshua”)
            HolySpirit=151 (“FATHER: The Word”: in all believers)
            God The Father=117 (Representing “GOD”: יהוה האלהים)


                           (26)יהוה = “GOD”(26)

    Fact #1. GOD's NAME, [יהוה], Theomatically matching “GOD”=26!
    Fact #2. The Short Form of God's Name, [יה], is pronounced “YÄ”=26.
    Fact #3. Man being created in YHVH's Image is first mentioned in Gen.1:26.
    Fact #4. “GOD”=26: matches the number of letters in the English alphabet, 26.
    Fact #5. “God's”, the possessive form of GOD, the number of times written is 26.
    Fact #6. “Spirit OF God”, the possessive phrase, the number of times written is 26.

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
    (LINK to the thread THAT PROVES GOD’s EXISTENCE)


    Ed J.

    I am sorry but I do not comprehend what you believe “”thought it not robbery to be equal with God:” means. Please paraphrase them. Thank you.

    #285093
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi,
    Human wisdom says that the Word being with God excludes the Word being God.
    Conventional theological “wisdom” fails us.

    It is only when we define the WORD as a BEING in the beginning because we perceive behaviours we would normally associate with a BEING displayed.

    But God can relate to and love and be loved by and send what is yet of Him as His Spirit – the Word.

    Get over it.

    #285097
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 16 2012,00:49)
    Hi,
    Human wisdom says that the Word being with God excludes the Word being God.
    Conventional theological “wisdom” fails us.

    It is only when we define the WORD as a BEING in the beginning because we perceive behaviours we would normally associate with a BEING displayed.

    But God can relate to and love and be loved by and send what is yet of Him as His Spirit – the Word.

    Get over it.


    Nick,

    Good point!

    #285099
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 16 2012,12:39)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 15 2012,06:03)

    Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 14 2012,17:20)
    A servant that has the form of God and the likeness of mankind but who does not see equality with God something to be grasped.


    What the freak does that even mean, Kerwin?  ???

    This is why I now avoid the long, drawn out discussions with you.  You are willing to post complete nonsense to save your flawed doctrine.

    And I just don't have the patience to argue against crazy anymore.  Consider jammin's “great and logical” responses of “it says so in this flawed translation where they ADDED words into scripture, so therefore it must be true”.  Your argument here is equally as logical that that one he made.

    Neither one of them are worth the space on this site that they take up.


    Mike,

    I figured that would be clear to those with spiritual understanding as they know that Jesus is still a servant in the form of God's Spirit and the likeness of mankind's body.


    Kerwin

    Quote
    I figured that would be clear to those with spiritual understanding as they know that Jesus is still a servant in the form of God's Spirit and the likeness of mankind's body.

    would this mean that you are the only one that his spiritual ??

    or the also the ones who agree with you are ???

    this answer is typical to all false religions

    Quote
    A servant that has the form of God and the likeness of mankind but who does not see equality with God something to be grasped.

    a servant + form of God + likeness of mankind = the Anointed one ?????

    tell how could something like that ;see equality with God something to be grasped ????????????

    are you not playing with configurations ??????

    #285112
    kerwin
    Participant

    Pierre,

    It is just a matter of thinking in spiritual ways.  Jesus is the Son of David as of his body and the Son of God as of his Spirit.  Anyone familiar with the good news knows that.

    Romans 1
    King James Version (KJV)

    1Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God, 2(Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,) 3Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;  4And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:

    #285119
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi KW,
    Certainly the son of David according to the flesh and the Son of God by his rebirth of God's Spirit.

    But he was soul and spirit also. His own human spirit left at calvary.

    His soul/WORD is WHO he is and always will be.

    Just like all of us in him.

    Eph 5.32

    #285120
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 16 2012,13:22)
    Pierre,

    It is just a matter of thinking in spiritual ways.  Jesus is the Son of David as of his body and the Son of God as of his Spirit.  Anyone familiar with the good news knows that.

    Romans 1
    King James Version (KJV)

    1Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God, 2(Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,) 3Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;  4And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:


    Kerwin

    was Jesus the son of David no,he was only a decedent of his genealogy David died almost 1000 years earlier

    he is the son of God because he his really the son of God (THE WORD)this is what people can not grasp Jhn 1;14

    Rom1
    concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;  4And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:

    do you understand what Paul says ???? this is your quoted scriptures

    HE WAS MADE ;

    HE WAS DECLARED (WITH POWER)

    BUT ACCORDING TO THE SPIRIT OF HOLINESS

    AND ALSO BY ;HIS RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD

    those are the key factors that establish that Christ was the WORD OF GOD and came down to us to save us all

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