John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

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Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 4,161 through 4,180 (of 26,009 total)
  • Author
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  • #242924
    Wispring
    Participant

    First understand the words in a secular non-spiritual way!

    #242978
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Wispering……..What you are saying i believe, is the Logos is the concept and Reema is the word that describe that concept. So the Concept is the Intellect (produced by Spirit) in our minds, the LOGOS, and Reema is the words we used to describe it right?

    peace and love to you and yours…………………………………gene

    #242988
    Wispring
    Participant

    Hi Gene,

    The concept is the logos. The concept “Intellect is produced by Spirit in our mind” is a logos. Intellect is a concept/logos requiring reema to define it. Produced is a concept/logos requiring reema to define. Spirit is a concept/logos requiring reema to define it. Mind is a concept requiring reema to define. Paladin is stating that the word Word in John 1:1 is a logos that has a definition of the “activity of Christ living in you” and he then proceeds to show this definition true via scriptural reference and analysis. Exegeting is what this process is called. The word logos is just that. A word. It is a word the denotes a concept, deed, idea, so forth. If you are equating “Intellect (produced by Spirit) in our minds” with “activity of Christ living in you” then logically you would be in agreement with Paladin's reasoning. Right now I am thinking that you are on the living edge of understanding the words Logos and Reema and how Paladin is using them in his presentation.
      Here is Paladin saying so clearly:

    Quote
    “Christ” is not “the logos of God.” “The logos of God” is an activity of Christ living in you.

                                                             With Love and Respect,
                                                                        Wispring

    #243024
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Wispering …….. So what you wrote above does agree with my prior post right because that is exactly what i said. That is the way i have always seen it, i do believe the Logos is the spirit of God that was living (IN) Jesus and can be in us also, it is the common denominator . Spirit (IS) Logos and a word is defined as Intelligent Utterance , the utterance or vocalizing of the Spirit. Remember Jesus said the WORDS he spoke to us are spirit and life that i believe, a Word is simply an expression of Spirit and Spirit is INTELLECT and when it is spoken it becomes a WORD. So Reema is just the (expression) of Spirit is the way it appears Right?

    peace and love…………………………………..gene

    #243031
    Wispring
    Participant

    Hi Gene,
      almost there!. OK. Now think of God before Genesis. He has an infinitude of Logos and reema in his spiritual mind just waiting to be expressed. The first thing he said was “Let there be light”. Point being a Logos is of the Spirit. Created by the spirit. Certainly when God expresses a Logos or reema it is spiritual. The Logos and reema are imbued and infused with spirit. They are not spirit itself. They are a product of spirit. Even when you and I express Logos and reema they are a product of spirit.

                                                            With Love and Repect,
                                                                    Wispring

    #243044
    Wispring
    Participant

    hmmm…simple…ok
                               let x = God
                               let y = Logos
                               let z = reema
                               let a = humanity(mankind)
                               let b = one man/human(male or female)
                               let the number of God   = 1(as in one and only)
                               let the number of Logos = infinity(numberless)
                               let the number of reema = infinity(numberless)

      A person can have Logos and reema that are secular things like business contracts, theatrical plays, Music, every day talk about things(i.e. family, freinds, weather, etc.)

      A person can have Logos an reema about ecclisiastical(relating to the Christian Church/spiritual) things.

      God can have Logos and reema about all things a person can and more because God is all-powerful and all-knowing.

      This is about as simple and formulatic as I can get Gene.

    #243159
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Wispring ……..i basically see it that way also. with possible one exception, I believe the GOD is SPIRIT or LOGOS that they are on and the same thing. Remember Jesus said that “they Father was IN him” i know this could be the LOGOS and i do agree with that but i also believe the LOGOS was the GOD that created everything and is Present in all creation. I think i see it as GOD is His WORD which is Spirit (intellect) that works in and through all creation. “THAT GOD MAY BE IN ALL AND THROUGH ALL

    Remember when Jesus said this, “Destroy this temple and in three days I shall raise it up. I believe that was GOD first person speaking through Jesus' mouth,  I still think the Spirit of GOD and GOD are one and the same thing brother. Just as our words and us are one and the same thing. GOD is embodied in  His Words or LOGOS> I believe the Logos is the very person of GOD the Father present in a person. Jesus acted as if GOD was alway present with Him as a Being existing (IN) him. IMO

    peace and love to you and yours brother…………………………………………gene[B][/B]

    #243177
    Wispring
    Participant

    Hi Gene,

    hmmm… You keep on saying spirit is intellect and this is a foundation of your spiritual understanding of things spiritual. Is that right? That spirit=intellect is a logos of your spiritual understanding? Are you using the word intellect from cognitive science or from a philosophy or somewhere else.
      Here is a link to it's use in cognitive science: use of word intellect in cognitive science

      Here is a link to it's use in philosophies:philosophical use of the word intellect

    With Love and Respect,
    Wispring

    #243184
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Wispring………….I describe Spirit as the cognitive ability which is intellect to me. For instance the Spirit of Truth is the cognitive ability or power to understand truth when you hear it. Remember when Jesus told his disciples not to leave Jerusalem until they recieved power from on high. This “power” gives enlightment or cognition into the mind of a person enabling them to percieve the truth. A person who has it can not be decieved, remember where it says ” he would deceive the very elect if it were possible' . The elect who have recieved this cognition or ability can not be decieved another words their intellect has been enlightens to the point by the Spirit of God to recognize the truth when they hear it. Inversely they also know a Lie or something that is not true also when they hear it. That is why Jesus told the Pharisees they did not comprehend what he was saying because they were not of GOD. Paul tells us whosoever does not have the Spirit simply are not of GOD. It is this Spirit that bears withness with our Spirit that we

    “BRETHREN you have no need of a teacher for the Spirit will teach you all things”. It is this elevated intellect or Mind that guides the Saints of GOD. Any true Saint of God can pick up a bible and percieve the true meaning of what is being said in scriptures because of the Spirit of GOD (IN) them. are the Sons of the living GOD > IMO

    peace and love to you and yours………………………………..gene

    #243192
    Wispring
    Participant

    Hi Gene,
    Cognitive ability is inherent in all things that have intellect. Intellect is a thing of the Mind. God's mind is Spirit. God's Logos(concepts) or reema(words to describe events,people,places or Logos) are thing(s) produced by the intellect whether it be of God's mind or man's mind. There is a logical order to it. First, there is man's/God's Spirit. Second, there is God's/man's mind. Third, there is that which is intellect, the reasoning part of the mind. Fourth there are Logos and reema that are a result of intellect. While saying God's Spirit pervades in all things is a truth. It is vague. Equating Logos, Spirit, Intellect, Mind as all one thing via the spirit of oneness is true so that God may be all in all is also vague. Using terms such as Logos and Reema allow one to truthfully organize and to recognize text via the Spirit of Truth using a cognitively valid method. Does this make sense to you? Do you perceive any falsehood here?

    With Love and Respect,
    Wispring

    #243198
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Wispring ………….No i don't think we are counteracting each other I just lump it together and you have broken it down seem to be what is going on. I see God , his Spirit, His Logos as one and the same thing that can indwell us just as it indwells Jesus. Were not that far apart brother. IMO

    peace and love to you and yours……………………………………..gene

    #243242
    Wispring
    Participant

    Hi Gene,
    I think you are right. Do you believe that your eternal salvation is dependent on serving God alone with the mind of Christ revealed to you by the Holy Spirit? Through developing an ongoing and deep personal relationship with both Christ Jesus and God? This is what my Lord Christ Jesus taught me.

    With Love and Respect,
    Wispring

    #243266
    Tim Kraft
    Participant

    Wispring & Gene: Wonderful, powerful, enlightning truth in these posts. I learned much. Thank you so much for the deep things of God. TK

    #243341
    kerwin
    Participant

    To all,

    I am convinced the Spirit is not God and God is not the Spirit though the Spirit is to God as our spirit is to us.

    Each is treated as a seperate element of the Unity of the Spirit and Scripture states that God lives in us through his Spirit.

    It is my belief that Jesus' spirit is a reflection of God's spirit, otherwise known as God's glory and God puts Jesus' spirit in us by his own Spirit just as he did Moses' spirit is the books of law.  For this reason God dwells in Jesus and Jesus dwells in God through the Spirit of Christ and Jesus dwells in those that believe and so God dwells in those that believe through the spirit of Jesus.  

    According to Philo of Alexander the Logos of God was God's instrument in the creation of the universe.  That sounds like the Spirit of God which is still God's instrument of creation.  

    Scripture calls the Spirit the reema of God.   Both common Greek words were translated from the same Hebrew word in the Greek manuscripts of the Old Testiment.  This may indicate that they were considered interchangable or that they are different facets of the same concept.

    #243346
    Wispring
    Participant

    Hi Gene and anyone else interested in reading a well-written sermon on Logos and reema,

      I would like to state I am convinced that I am in harmony with the person who wrote this sermon understanding.
    God's Human Words
      A truly wonderful piece of writing. One could even say inspired.

                                                  With Love and Respect,
                                                        Wispring

    #243912
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Wispering………..I tend to still think GOD and His Word are one and the same thing, while Reema can be a type of activity involved by the LOGOS, that does make sense, But i can see a problem with this also, that being that we can began to think Jesus is the Logos himself as the trinitarians and preexistences do. When i read Let Christ be in you , i do not see it as Jesus being (IN) Me but GOD the Father Being In Me just as He was (In) Jesus through His Word or Logos. I do believe the LOGOS is that active Force of GOD that can be in ALL things and work Through ALL Things. I see GOD the FATHER as Truly Being and Existing (IN) Jesus, and at times even speaking first person through Jesus' mouth. As in the case of “destroy this temple and in three days (I) God shall raise it up”. If Jesus was truly dead as He said He was then he could not have raised himself up from the dead state he was in. I think Thomas finely Got it Right when he said “MY LORD AND MY GOD. I believe he came to truly realize God the Father was truly (IN) Jesus' Body to, he was cohabiting the same Body Jesus had. GOD and HIS WORD or LOGOS are ONE and The SAME. Remember “know you not that your body (IS) the temple of the living GOD” Paul tells us. I do believe GOD the Father does Cohabit (IN) his creation. When it say Christ in you the Hope of Glory , i believe that CHRISTOS, IS THE ANOINTING SPIRIT OF GOD IN A PERSON not Jesus in them. IMO

    peace and love to you and yours brother…………………………………………gene

    #243919
    Wispring
    Participant

    Hi Gene,

    In the greek language logos is a word. In the greek language reema is a word. Any word in any language is a linguistic symbol of a concept. Concepts like a noun, pronoun, verb, adverb, adjective, determiner, and so forth. Words in any language have meanings. The word Logos means “something said (including the thought); by implication, a topic (subject of discourse), also reasoning (the mental faculty) or motive; by extension, a computation. KJV: account, cause, communication, X concerning, doctrine, fame, X have to do, intent, matter, mouth, preaching, question, reason, + reckon, remove, say(-ing), shew, X speaker, speech, talk, thing, + none of these things move me, tidings, treatise, utterance, word, work.”
      The word reema means “an utterance (individually, collectively or specially),; by implication, a matter or topic (especially of narration, command or dispute”.
      Notice how the definition of Logos includes “the thought”,”also reasoning”,”subject of discourse”. The definition of reema has “especially of narration, command or dispute.”
      What grabs my attention with respect to these definitions is that one can use reema to describe a logos. One can't use logos to describe reema because a logos is that which is described. For instance:

    Quote
    1 Corinthians 2:4-5 (King James Version)

    4And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:

    5That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God


    In this scripture the greek word logos is used for speech and words. Why not reema? Because Paul is expressing that his speech and preaching were not with philosophical ideas or reasoning of human wisdom, but, with the Spirit(of God) and of power(of God).
      Basically Gene, what I am trying to communicate to you is that logos and reema are not “spiritual words”. These words are applied spiritually in the bible when used in reference to spiritual things.
    God could talk to you directly simply using reema like for instance “Gene, read words(reema) in the bible”. Nothing deep or spiritual there, just a command, right? Then God could talk to you and say “Gene I want you to understand the overall word(logos/meaning using reason) of the bible”. The Holy Spirit/Spirit of Truth is the activator/reminder for us disciples of Christ Jesus and worshipers of God that helps us die in Christ or take on the mind of Christ so that the mind Christ which was created by God directs our lives. Which is basically the same thing that you say in your posts. The difference you and I have is that you understand God and Logos as one in the same. Logically and linguistically they are not one and the same. Reema isn't a type of activity. Reema are simply words. Whether they are thought, sung, spoken, or written down in any language whatsoever. This is why I never think of Christ Jesus as the Logos itself. The Spirit of God, the Spirit of Christ, the mind of Christ are all spiritual truths within the Logos. God wants everyone to be LIKE Jesus Christ in their own individual way. God doesn't want clones or robots( You will just have to trust me on this thought since cloning nor robotics where in existence in the time the bible was written). You know that bumper sticker? What would Jesus do? That is like a teaching of having the mind of Christ.

                                                     With Love and Respect,
                                                               Wispring

    #244073
    Wispring
    Participant

    Hi Gene,
      I bet you have played “catch” with a ball at some time in your life! I am going to attempt to use playing “catch” as an anology for teaching Logos and reema. This could be interesting because I am doing this on the “fly” lol.
      Somewhere in a baseball field on a calm, warm spring day is a father and his son playing catch. The father says “Get ready son! I am going to throw an inside curve-ball!”
      The son having only a rudimentary knowledge of baseball says “Wait! What is an inside curve-ball?”
      The father responds “Oh yea! This is your first time playing catch and you don't know what I mean by inside curve-ball. Here, let me explain, “I will throw the ball in such a way that it will travel across the edge of the plate on the side where the batter is standing in a curving path and reach your glove in an area outside of the strike-zone.
      The son then says “Thanks for the info dad, I get it now, let's play!”

      The boldened words are the logos.
      The italicized words are the reema.
    That was fun!

    With Love and Respect,
    Wispring

    #244179
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Wispring…………I do understand that, i know word explain what we are thinking, However to separate them is not necessarily right IMO, because words themselves (ARE) expression of our Thoughts and they are SPIRIT and life according to Jesus. they can not be separated from the individual, they can be transmitted from individual to individual, through existing knowledge. For instance lets take your Father son teaching thing , it would be impossible for the Father to teach the son anything if the son did not already have the intellect (Spirit) to percieve it in the first place, so what was the father doing them, he was arranging the already held (intellect) in the child to Aline with his thoughts (Spirit) so in this, Spirit is Passed to Spirit. Word are simply an expression of Spirits that we utter, but what is the force behind them it is SPIRIT, so Jesus could say ” the words i am telling you Spirit and life . So in John 1:1 “the Word was with GOD and the Word was GOD. The word do did not leave GOD it simply expanded to Jesus and thus GOD was TRULY (IN) HIM. GOD and His Word are one Just as you and your Word are ONE and the same thing. 'SO A MAN THINKS SO HE IS

    I do know what you are saying though and do agree that word are means of communicating our thought which are derived from our Spirits (IN) us. I do agree with that brother. As i said before i really do not believe we are much apart on this Brother. IMO

    peace and love to you and yours Wispring……………………………………..gene

    #244435
    Wispring
    Participant

    Hi Gene,

    Quote
    they can not be separated from the individual, they can be transmitted from individual to individual, through existing knowledge


      Replace the word knowledge with the word language like this:

    Quote
    they can not be separated from the individual, they can be transmitted from individual to individual, through existing knowledgelanguage


      The reason I express this is simply because knowledge is transmitted via words.
       It would be impossible for the father and the son to communicate(at least initially) if they didn't share the same language.If they both did not already have intellect(spirit) that had a mutually compatible lexicon of language. When parents teaches thier offspring to speak in thier native language they teach words. Normally, nouns first, like mama, dada because they are easiest to cognate. Words are symbols of real world objects and concepts. This is how a lexicon(structure of language) is built. The father was arranging the shared lexicon in an intelligent, organized manner(sentences) in order to explain a new concept(logos) to his son. I cognate arranging someone's intellect as having connotations of a form of brain-washing. Hitler spoke many words and concepts. Many people were led astray by allowing his words to re-arrange thier intellects. Are you truly realizing, cognating, getting, comprehending the concepts that i am relaying to you via the english language in this post? I truly hope so.

                                                                With Love and Respect,
                                                                      Wispring

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