John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 3,501 through 3,520 (of 26,009 total)
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  • #165326
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Con…….Trinitarians and Preexistences are of those who have recieved a deluding Spirit sent from GOD, because they recieved not the LOVE of the Truth so GOD sent to them as deluding Spirit (INTELLECT), as stated in 2Ths 2. Jesus plainly said in Prayer “FOR THOU ART THE (ONLY) TRUE GOD”. They cant even understand those simple seven words, they think (THOU) means myself, and (ONLY) means more then one, three, GO figure. They believe that Jesus created everything, Even though in Issiah God said He (ALONE and BY HIMSELF) created everything and He said He was the (ONLY) GOD and He knew of NO other GOD, but these deluded people reject the truth spoken by GOD himself. They take you on the rabbit trails with every twist and turn that one can possibly imagine.

    #165357
    NickHassan
    Participant

    G,
    Are you quoting scripture?
    But you told us not to rely on it?

    #165392
    KangarooJack
    Participant

    Quote (Gene @ Dec. 20 2009,02:43)
    Con…….Trinitarians and Preexistences are of those who have recieved a deluding Spirit sent from GOD, because they recieved not the LOVE of the Truth so GOD sent to them as deluding Spirit (INTELLECT), as stated in 2Ths 2. Jesus plainly said in Prayer “FOR THOU ART THE (ONLY) TRUE GOD”. They cant even understand those simple seven words, they think (THOU) means myself, and (ONLY) means more then one, three, GO figure. They believe that Jesus created everything, Even though in Issiah God said He (ALONE and BY HIMSELF) created everything and He said He was the (ONLY) GOD and He knew of NO other GOD, but these deluded people reject the truth spoken by GOD himself. They take you on the rabbit trails with every twist and turn that one can possibly imagine.


    Gene,
    What about the ESV translation of Jude 4-5?

    “For certain people have crept in unnoticed who long ago were designated for this condemnation, ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into sensuality and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.
    5Now I want to remind you, although you once fully knew it, that Jesus, who saved a people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe.”

    The ESV is a literal translation of earlier Greek manuscripts. So they carry an authority which cannot be ignored. Those manuscripts say that “Jesus” saved a people out of Egypt. If you're going to say that the earlier Greek manuscripts are wrong then be ready to prove it.

    thinker

    #165410

    Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 19 2009,06:54)

    Quote (Constitutionalist @ Dec. 19 2009,17:41)
    You are correct, and don't see things like these.
    Trinitarians can't compare verses for some reason.


    Trinitarians also think the image of God is God as if the image of me in the mirror is me.  Logical reasoning is not their strong point.


    Kerwin

    Forget the dead image in a mirror.

    Jesus is not a dead image of the Father.

    When someone looks at you personally they see a living image of you.

    If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth “ye know him, and have seen him. John 14:7

    Jesus didn't say you know about God and have seen Gods mere reflection.

    He plainly said you know God and have seen God!

    There is a lot of Philips around here!

    WJ

    #165411

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 19 2009,15:13)
    G,
    Are you quoting scripture?
    But you told us not to rely on it?


    Agreed!

    Gene seems to think that the Spirit of God has shown only him what is true while he claims that scriptures prove his points. But he cannot refute our belief with scriptures but just make empty claims!

    WJ

    #165421
    Ed J
    Participant

    Quote (Constitutionalist @ Dec. 19 2009,18:53)
    :blues:

    MEN WITH 'ELOHIM’S NAME

    One of the passages which is most helpful in demonstrating all this is John 10:34-36.

    Here the Jews made the mistake which many do today.

    They thought that Yeshua HaMoshiach was saying he was 'Elohim Himself.

    Yeshua HaMoshiach corrected them by saying, “Is it not written in your law, I said, You are gods?

    If He called them ‘gods’…why do you say of (me)…’You blaspheme!’ because I said, I am the Son of 'Elohim?’.

    Yeshua HaMoshiach is really saying ‘In the Old Testament men are called ‘gods’; I am saying I am the Son of 'Elohim; so why are you getting so upset?’

    Yeshua HaMoshiach is actually quoting from Ps. 82, where the judges of Israel were called ‘gods’.

    As has been shown, the full name of G-d in Hebrew is ‘Yahweh Elohim’ – implying ‘He who will be revealed in a group of mighty ones’.

    The true believers are those in whom 'Elohim is revealed in a limited sense in this life.

    However, in the Kingdom, they will be ‘mighty ones’ in whom the LORD will be fully manifested.

    This is all beautifully shown by a comparison of Is. 64:4 and 1 Cor. 2:9. “Men have not heard, nor perceived by the ear, neither has the eye seen, O 'Elohim, besides you, what He has prepared for him that waits for him”.

    Paul quotes this in 1 Cor. 2:9,10: “It is written, Eye has not seen, nor ear heard, neither has entered into the heart of man, the things which 'Elohim has prepared for them that love Him. But 'Elohim has revealed them unto us by His Spirit”.

    The passage in Is. 64 says that no one except 'Elohim can understand the things He has prepared for the believers.

    However 1 Cor. 2:10 says that those things have been revealed to us.

    The priests were 'Elohim’s representatives, and for a man to ‘appear before the Lord’ effectively referred to his appearance before the priest.

    When we read of “men going up to 'Elohim at Bethel”, the ‘house of 'Elohim’ (1 Sam. 10:3), we aren’t to think that 'Elohim Himself lived in a house in Bethel.

    The reference is to the priests, his representative, being there.

    Not only is the Name of 'Elohim carried by people, but language and actions which are specific to 'Elohim are sometimes applied to humans who manifest Him.

    The daughter of Pharaoh who saved baby Moses is described in the very terms with which 'Elohim is described as saving His people Israel 'out of the water' just as Moses was saved.

    She came 'came down', 'sees' the suffering child, hears its cry, takes pity, draws him out of the water, provides for him (Ex. 2:23-25; 3:7,8).

    The parallels are surely to indicate that 'Elohim was willing to show Himself manifest in that Gentile woman in the salvation of His people.

    And of course the whole practical idea of 'Elohim manifestation' is that we consciously try to reflect the characteristics of 'Elohimd, for His Name is in fact a summary of His characteristics and personality (Ex. 34:4-6).

    :blues:


    Hi Ron,

    I find myself usually agreeing with you.
    But this post?
    I believe you really messed up on this one.
    This post (I believe) will add nothing but confusion.

    God bless
    Ed J
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

    #165431
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 20 2009,07:13)
    G,
    Are you quoting scripture?
    But you told us not to rely on it?


    Nick……..I quote scripture all the time, but you as well as others fail to acknowledge it. But some scriptures have been corrupted that is why we have so many different Bibles and Churches because they can't agree with each other. I have quoted very clear scriptures and you just ignore them like Thinker and WJ do.

    Thats all you seem to be able to do here is falsely accuse and Label people. Hardly and attribute of GOD. But you and the rest of the accusers are right about one thing I would far more rely on GOD HOLY Spirit of TRUTH, then any mistranslated or misapplied Scripture. Evidentially you people do not believe Jesus when He said “YOU SHALL (ALL) BE TAUGHT BY GOD” and again ” brethren you have (NO) need of a Teacher for the SPIRIT will Teach you (ALL) things.

    I realize you truly do not believe nor understand this even as you and others do not believe other things Jesus Has said either. O well you do it you way without GOD Spirit Guidance may be WJ 600 Scholars taking you through endless mazes of useless trails of deception will teach you. I for one will let GOD'S Spirit guide me and impute understand into my mind. I will continue to rely on being (taught by HIM). You and WJ and Thinker remind me of when Jesus said “You search the scriptures for in them you (THINK) you have Life, but they are those which spoke of Me but you will not come to Me in order to Have life'.

    You also “profess GOD But deny the (POWER) there of”. You rely on your (FEAR Religion) and WJ on his 600 hundred “trinitarian” Scholars. He can't even come to the simple plain word of Jesus that there is (ONLY) ONE TRUE GOD> And “Here O ISREAL THE LORD OUR GOD IS ONE LORD” amazing!. IMO

    #165434
    KangarooJack
    Participant

    Gene said:

    Quote
    Nick……..I quote scripture all the time, but you as well as others fail to acknowledge it.


    Gene,
    But there are some earlier scriptures which say that Jesus saved the people out of Egypt and you answered saying that we should not believe the scriptures but the Spirit. So no one will listen to you now when you quote the scriptures. You told us not to believe them.

    thinker

    #165435
    KangarooJack
    Participant

    WorshippingJesus said:

    Quote
    Kerwin

    Forget the dead image in a mirror.

    Jesus is not a dead image of the Father.

    BOOM!

    thinker

    #165437
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 20 2009,10:04)

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 19 2009,15:13)
    G,
    Are you quoting scripture?
    But you told us not to rely on it?


    Agreed!

    Gene seems to think that the Spirit of God has shown only him what is true while he claims that scriptures prove his points. But he cannot refute our belief with scriptures but just make empty claims!

    WJ


    WJ………Please i have posted hundreds of scriptures to you as well as others have also. In over three and a half year here, Very simple to understand scriptures , but when GOD Sends a deluding Spirit no one can remove it. They could not change even if they tried to. The lack of Love for the truth has seals their fate for now, until GOD unlocks it. because they are not about truth, but Traditions of their churches denominational stands and doctrinal Theologies. And that applies the same for all who do not truly LOVE TRUTH, they will weave a continual web of deception by false teachings. O and by the way the SPIRIT of GOD (HAS) Shown me many things concerning His words. I certainly did not get it from believing in 600 GREEK Scholars that for sure.

    #165438
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Thinker ……..Please post where i said not to to believe in scripture are you becoming a false accuser like NICK and WJ> I recall saying there were some errors in the texts we now have , but where did i say we are not to believe in them all.  I have just quoted to you what Jesus said and YOU still do not believe. And your assumption  that Jesus saved the people out of Egypt is also false. You trinitarians alway try to rob GOD the FATHER of HIS glory and transfer it to JESUS.  But when He Comes you will meet your fate 2 Ths 2. pretty sums up you Trinitarians and Preexistences Fate. IMO

    #165445

    Quote (Gene @ Dec. 19 2009,22:33)
    You also “profess GOD But deny the (POWER) there of”. You rely on your (FEAR Religion) and WJ on his 600 hundred “trinitarian” Scholars.  He can't even come to the simple plain word of Jesus that there is (ONLY) ONE TRUE GOD> And “Here O ISREAL THE LORD OUR GOD IS ONE LORD” amazing!.  IMO


    How do you know that scripture you just quoted is the truth Gene, since you say they are corrupt?

    What do you think this sight is about. Its about discussing Gods inspired word of which you only think is inspired when it agrees with your theology.

    You make false accusations and judgments about our hearts and tell us you have the ability to hear from the Spirit, but even when it contradicts the Apostles written word who surely were able to hear better than you, then you just deny it and say it is corrupt.

    Heck what good is the written scriptures for then Gene if all we need is the HolY Spirit. Didn't Peter say that the scriptures are able to make us wise unto salvation?

    Didn't the early church search the scriptures daily to sse if those things were so or not?

    So go ahead and make your claims about us being decieved while you seem to make yourself the plumbline of truth here.

    Your belief that the scriptures are corrupt is proof why you do not believe them.

    All I have seen you do here in the time you have been here is constantly make claims that we are deluded and worship a false God.

    Well guess what Gene that is a two edged sword and cuts both ways.

    If you want to say the scritpures are corrupt go ahead, but don't expect any one here to put much stock in your ability to exegete scripture or hear from the Spirit when it contradicts the inspired scriptures.

    WJ

    #165446

    Quote (Gene @ Dec. 19 2009,22:49)

    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 20 2009,10:04)

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 19 2009,15:13)
    G,
    Are you quoting scripture?
    But you told us not to rely on it?


    Agreed!

    Gene seems to think that the Spirit of God has shown only him what is true while he claims that scriptures prove his points. But he cannot refute our belief with scriptures but just make empty claims!

    WJ


    WJ………Please i have posted hundreds of scriptures to you as well as others have also. In over three and a half year here, Very simple to understand scriptures , but when GOD Sends a deluding Spirit no one can remove it. They could not change even if they tried to. The lack of Love for the truth has seals their fate for now, until GOD unlocks it. because they are not about truth, but  Traditions of their churches denominational stands and doctrinal Theologies. And that applies the same for all who do not truly LOVE TRUTH, they will weave a continual web of deception by false teachings.  O and by the way the SPIRIT of GOD (HAS) Shown me many things concerning His words. I certainly did not get it from believing in 600 GREEK Scholars that for sure.


    Gene

    Yes of course you know more about God than the 100s and 1000s of believers that disagree with you.

    You know more about the scriptures than the experts in Hebrew and Greek which translated what we have.

    You seem to think that they did not have the Spirit also.

    Why? Because they do not agree with you.

    Seriously, I find it very arrogant to claim to know more than they do when most of them gave their entire lives to bring you the scriptures in your written language.

    But go ahead and continue to accuse the brethren of having a deluded Spirit sent from God!

    How do you know you are not the one with the deluded Spirit?

    WJ

    #165453
    banana
    Participant

    Quote (peace2all @ Dec. 19 2009,11:25)
    gene your not making any sense with your ramblings at all.

    what is this “a Being Kill Him and rebirth HIM and have him die again.

    did he die 2 times?? not sure what you mean. i see only one time that the bible says god's son, jesus christ had died. where do you get he died 2 times?

    there are a lot of scriptures that tell you why and what his ransom means to us all. there are a scriptures that tell you that he was in heaven with his father before the earth was created. its been posted over and over again.

    just because you choose not to read them for what they say is all your doing.

    the scribess and pharisees and non believers alike even knowing that his arrival was predicted, denied and hated christ and chose to do the things of man, of flesh and what had been tradition from there fathers beforehand.
    now is not the time to be living as those did.

    we are to have everlasting life through jesus, belief in him and what he taught and preached and to spread that to others.

    one cannot do that if one does not believe whole heartedly and accept the truth.

    the jews new, others new he was to come and they did believe but chose to turn a blind eye and wanting to live the life they had. they were to puffed up with pride claiming that since they were decendents of abraham they were fine. they though they wre rightous and needed no guidence from another. but such is not the case. they hated him and didn't want ot listen at all even with all the miracles teachings he did. they new but didn't care.

    christ is the way and his requires a spiritual way. he did not come to fix judiasm, he came and established christianity.

    before him with moses it was a flesh way to god with the commandments. live life this way or else. now its jesus and spiritual believe and accepting him. preaching god kingdom to others and do rightous things.


    Yes, I agree with you it does not matter how many Scriptures you put in front of them, they wouldn't see it. Not only are these Scriptures that prove of the preexisting of Jesus, it is clear. How anybody can make something else out of it, is behind me. Tell you the truth I am so done with this. I am getting mighty tired of it. Explaining over and over again and not seeing, makes me wonder.
    Irene

    #165466
    KangarooJack
    Participant

    Gene said:

    Quote
    I have just quoted to you what Jesus said and YOU still do not believe


    Gene,
    You do not quote everything Jesus said. You quote only His statements which you think support your doctrine. When we quote His statements about His exaltation you just ignore them. Example: Jesus said that His words were not His own. This is true. But He also said that the time would come when all truth would be His. He said, “All that the Father has IS mine.” Now that He is exalted He may reveal truth as He sees fit. But you just deny it.

    You speak HALF TRUTHS here. Half truths are lies Gene. If you speak half truths in a court of law you would be accused of perjury.

    thinker

    #165475
    uoflfan
    Participant

    Quote (thethinker @ Dec. 20 2009,20:34)
    Gene said:

    Quote
    I have just quoted to you what Jesus said and YOU still do not believe


    Gene,
    You do not quote everything Jesus said. You quote only His statements which you think support your doctrine. When we quote His statements about His exaltation you just ignore them. Example: Jesus said that His words were not His own. This is true. But He also said that the time would come when all truth would be His. He said, “All that the Father has IS mine.” Now that He is exalted He may reveal truth as He sees fit. But you just deny it.

    You speak HALF TRUTHS here. Half truths are lies Gene. If you speak half truths in a court of law you would be accused of perjury.

    thinker


    Thinker,
    Jesus is 1 with God because God is in him. I have never denied that Jesus is God just that he is not equal with him and Jesus tells us many times that he is not equal and that the Father is the only true God.

    #165501
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (thethinker @ Dec. 19 2009,20:56)

    Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 19 2009,22:54)

    Quote (Constitutionalist @ Dec. 19 2009,17:41)
    You are correct, and don't see things like these.
    Trinitarians can't compare verses for some reason.


    Trinitarians also think the image of God is God as if the image of me in the mirror is me.  Logical reasoning is not their strong point.


    Misrepresentation! Hebrews 1 says that the Son is the express image of God's substance. It means that Christ's being was not derived. The sun's rays are the “exact image” of the sun's substance.

    The term “express image” or “exact representation” is NEVER used of other men. At best it means the Son is God. In the least it means that Jesus was a unique man.

    thinker


    I agree that Jesus is a unique man since he is the Anointed One.

    #165517
    KangarooJack
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 21 2009,04:32)

    Quote (thethinker @ Dec. 19 2009,20:56)

    Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 19 2009,22:54)

    Quote (Constitutionalist @ Dec. 19 2009,17:41)
    You are correct, and don't see things like these.
    Trinitarians can't compare verses for some reason.


    Trinitarians also think the image of God is God as if the image of me in the mirror is me.  Logical reasoning is not their strong point.


    Misrepresentation! Hebrews 1 says that the Son is the express image of God's substance. It means that Christ's being was not derived. The sun's rays are the “exact image” of the sun's substance.

    The term “express image” or “exact representation” is NEVER used of other men. At best it means the Son is God. In the least it means that Jesus was a unique man.

    thinker


    I agree that Jesus is a unique man since he is the Anointed One.


    Jesus was not “unique” because He was anointed. Moses was anointed too. Try again.

    thinker

    #165520
    uoflfan
    Participant

    Quote (thethinker @ Dec. 21 2009,06:02)

    Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 21 2009,04:32)

    Quote (thethinker @ Dec. 19 2009,20:56)

    Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 19 2009,22:54)

    Quote (Constitutionalist @ Dec. 19 2009,17:41)
    You are correct, and don't see things like these.
    Trinitarians can't compare verses for some reason.


    Trinitarians also think the image of God is God as if the image of me in the mirror is me.  Logical reasoning is not their strong point.


    Misrepresentation! Hebrews 1 says that the Son is the express image of God's substance. It means that Christ's being was not derived. The sun's rays are the “exact image” of the sun's substance.

    The term “express image” or “exact representation” is NEVER used of other men. At best it means the Son is God. In the least it means that Jesus was a unique man.

    thinker


    I agree that Jesus is a unique man since he is the Anointed One.


    Jesus was not “unique” because He was anointed. Moses was anointed too. Try again.

    thinker


    Thinker
    Jesus was unique because he had all the fullness of Deity in bodily form but it was Gods good pleasure for the Fullness to dwell in Christ. Which means Christ did not always possess it, it was given to him.

    #165527
    KangarooJack
    Participant

    Quote (uoflfan @ Dec. 21 2009,06:12)

    Quote (thethinker @ Dec. 21 2009,06:02)

    Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 21 2009,04:32)

    Quote (thethinker @ Dec. 19 2009,20:56)

    Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 19 2009,22:54)

    Quote (Constitutionalist @ Dec. 19 2009,17:41)
    You are correct, and don't see things like these.
    Trinitarians can't compare verses for some reason.


    Trinitarians also think the image of God is God as if the image of me in the mirror is me.  Logical reasoning is not their strong point.


    Misrepresentation! Hebrews 1 says that the Son is the express image of God's substance. It means that Christ's being was not derived. The sun's rays are the “exact image” of the sun's substance.

    The term “express image” or “exact representation” is NEVER used of other men. At best it means the Son is God. In the least it means that Jesus was a unique man.

    thinker


    I agree that Jesus is a unique man since he is the Anointed One.


    Jesus was not “unique” because He was anointed. Moses was anointed too. Try again.

    thinker


    Thinker
    Jesus was unique because he had all the fullness of Deity in bodily form but it was Gods good pleasure for the Fullness to dwell in Christ. Which means Christ did not always possess it, it was given to him.


    Jesus always possessed the fulness of the Deity. He gave up only the free exercise of His Divine perogatives.

    Though your view is lacking it is far better than Gene's

    thinker

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