John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 3,481 through 3,500 (of 26,009 total)
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  • #165221
    peace2all
    Participant

    Quote (Gene @ Dec. 17 2009,01:32)
    To All………the glory Jesus had with the Father was the Glory GOD the FATHER had planned for Him in the beginning of the creation of the world, and this Glory is also given to Us, it is what we had in the beginning of this earths creation also. GOD'S Plan is to bring (Many) Sons unto Glory. Those who believe in Preexistence of Christ as a demigod or super being before his berth here on earth, are as much false teachers as those who believe on the Triune GOD system. they are the same thing and are of the Apostate Churches.   IMO

    peace and love to you all………………..gene


    gene why do you interpret what “word” is.

    you have all the ohter scriptures that when used with that, talk about jesus as being with his father in heaven.

    was jesus not the word of god when he spoke his good news.

    if all the other scriptures did not specifically say that jesus was in heaven before all was created and that god through his son created all and that he was like a master craftsman after having done this, i would think a little more on your own theory of it. but the scriptures all point to jesus as being there.

    Gene – are you saying that god was by himelf then?

    you do know that the bible says there was also lucifer too before man. . thats why after man was made and god let them do as they please to in regards as taking care of the earth that he questioned god's authority in the garden of eden and that is why he lied and lead astray eve.

    you should look at more than one verse when there are a lot out there that tie into this matter.

    why do people not want ot look at scriptures and use a verse or a few wordds to interpret something that is shown to have a specific meaning or idea.

    #165224
    NickHassan
    Participant

    G,
    God is just a mind??
    Your god maybe.

    #165226
    banana
    Participant

    Over and over again have Scriptures put in front of those that do not believe Jesus was with the Father before the world was. I just can't believe such unbelief to say the least. These Scriptures are so clear. But no some like Gene and kerwin have to interpret them the way they see it and not the way they are written. It makes me sick. You call yourselves Christian and yet don't let the Holy Spirit teach you through others. John who was Jesus Brother used the right words to say that He was the Word in the beginning and was with God and was God. God is a title and in Ancient times many were called God's. That does not mean that Jesus is the Almighty God our Heavenly Father. To think that it is intellect is the most ridiculous idea that I have ever heard. Wake up and see the light. It became flesh and no plan or intellect can do that. It also is not the Father like some say. Nobody has seen God or heard His voice.
    All Scriptures given and I am not about to go through it again.
    Peace and Love Irene

    #165227
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Nick……….GOD also has all POWER with THAT MIND, you should not forget that, While you try to delude people with you lack of understanding. What do you think scripture say when it says “LET (THIS) MIND BE IN YOU THAT WAS IN CHRIST JESUS OUR Lord”. God was in Jesus through that mind. While you hate the Idea GOD has a Mind and the giver of (ALL) Thought, that still does not detract from Scripture , your lack of understanding is speaking, to no avail to yourself or anyone else for that matter. Nick remember when Jesus told the Pharisees they were not of GOD or they would understand the things He was saying , I feel the same about you , What i have said is clear and Logical and i believe anyone with the SPIRIT of GOD in them can easily understand it. So that leaves me with only one conclusion concerning you. I believe you are of the Pharisees , you attack anyone who disagree with you dogmas, and i am (NOT) the only one who has noticed this, many here have. And please do not put words in MY MOUTH as to WHAT GOD IS to ME, You have no idea what my relationship with HIM is or anyone else's as far as that goes. IMO

    #165228
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Irene…..I don't want to change you, believe as you will, but there are more the Me and Kerwin , who do not believe Jesus Preexisted before his berth here, CON, matian, Terriccia, Jodi Lee, Mandy, Kerwin, myself, and several others. You have yet to produce ONE scripture or explanation for GOD to have used a (PREEXISTING) Being Kill Him and rebirth HIM and have him die again. I have ask you many times to give a reason for that, but you fail to, why is that? If Jesus preexisted as a Being before his Berth as some kind of demigod or super being, WHAT DOES THAT PROVE TO US, HOW DOES THAT HELP US BELIEVE THAT GOD CAN ALSO DO THE SAME THING HE DID WITH JESUS TO US, JESUS WOULD (NOT) HAVE BEEN (EXACTLY) LIKE US WOULD HE. In fact the preexistence doctrine actually tares down the truth of GOD dealing with HIS Childern Just as Bad a the doctrine of the Trinity DOES, maybe even worse. Come out from that false teaching, and realize GOD the FATHER had a Plan to Perfect HIs Childern and Jesus was the first of (OUR) kind to achieve that goal with the help of the FATHER. Jesus is ONE OF US, you need to stop pushing Him away from your likeness. IMO

    #165253
    peace2all
    Participant

    gene your not making any sense with your ramblings at all.

    what is this “a Being Kill Him and rebirth HIM and have him die again.

    did he die 2 times?? not sure what you mean. i see only one time that the bible says god's son, jesus christ had died. where do you get he died 2 times?

    there are a lot of scriptures that tell you why and what his ransom means to us all. there are a scriptures that tell you that he was in heaven with his father before the earth was created. its been posted over and over again.

    just because you choose not to read them for what they say is all your doing.

    the scribess and pharisees and non believers alike even knowing that his arrival was predicted, denied and hated christ and chose to do the things of man, of flesh and what had been tradition from there fathers beforehand.
    now is not the time to be living as those did.

    we are to have everlasting life through jesus, belief in him and what he taught and preached and to spread that to others.

    one cannot do that if one does not believe whole heartedly and accept the truth.

    the jews new, others new he was to come and they did believe but chose to turn a blind eye and wanting to live the life they had. they were to puffed up with pride claiming that since they were decendents of abraham they were fine. they though they wre rightous and needed no guidence from another. but such is not the case. they hated him and didn't want ot listen at all even with all the miracles teachings he did. they new but didn't care.

    christ is the way and his requires a spiritual way. he did not come to fix judiasm, he came and established christianity.

    before him with moses it was a flesh way to god with the commandments. live life this way or else. now its jesus and spiritual believe and accepting him. preaching god kingdom to others and do rightous things.

    #165255
    peace2all
    Participant

    Quote (Gene @ Dec. 19 2009,09:01)
    Irene…..I don't want to change you, believe as you will, but there are more the Me and Kerwin , who do not believe Jesus Preexisted before his berth here, CON, matian, Terriccia, Jodi Lee, Mandy, Kerwin, myself, and several others. You have yet to produce ONE scripture or explanation for GOD to have used a (PREEXISTING) Being Kill Him and rebirth HIM and have him die again. I have ask you many times to give a reason for that, but you fail to, why is that? If Jesus preexisted as a Being before his Berth as some kind of demigod or super being, WHAT DOES THAT PROVE TO US, HOW DOES THAT HELP US BELIEVE THAT GOD CAN ALSO DO THE SAME THING HE DID WITH JESUS TO US, JESUS WOULD (NOT) HAVE BEEN (EXACTLY) LIKE US WOULD HE. In fact the preexistence doctrine actually tares down the truth of GOD dealing with HIS Childern Just as Bad a the doctrine of the Trinity DOES, maybe even worse. Come out from that false teaching, and realize GOD the FATHER had a Plan to Perfect HIs Childern and Jesus was the first of (OUR) kind to achieve that goal with the help of the FATHER. Jesus is ONE OF US, you need to stop pushing Him away from your likeness.  IMO


    really just like us.? hum

    i didn't know healing the blind and casting out demons and healing leprosy and raising the dead.

    isaiah's prophecy's had come true well before his arrivel.

    mere man like us he's not.

    sure jesus christ thanks you for thinking so!

    #165286
    Jodi Lee
    Participant

    John 1:1  In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

    Titus 1:1 Paul, a bondservant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect and the acknowledgment of the truth which accords with godliness,  2  in hope of eternal life which God, who cannot lie, promised before time began,

    In the beginning was God's WORD of a promise of eternal life!

    Romans 8:11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.

    Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

    1 Peter 1:18 knowing that you were not redeemed with corruptible things, like silver or gold, from your aimless conduct received by tradition from your fathers, 19 but with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot. 20 He indeed was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you 21 who through Him believe in God, who raised Him from the dead and gave Him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God.

    2 Timothy 1:8 Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me His prisoner, but share with me in the sufferings for the gospel according to the power of God, 9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began, 10 but has now been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Jesus Christ, who has abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel,

    In the beginning was the plan for a human being to bring salvation!

    Genesis 18:18 since Abraham shall surely become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth shall be blessed in him?

    Genesis 26:4 And I will make your descendants multiply as the stars of heaven; I will give to your descendants all these lands; and in your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed; 5 because Abraham obeyed My voice and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws.”

    1 Chronicles 17:11 And it shall be, when your days are fulfilled, when you must go to be with your fathers, that I will set up your seed after you, who will be of your sons; and I will establish his kingdom. 12 He shall build Me a house, and I will establish his throne forever. 13 I will be his Father, and he shall be My son; and I will not take My mercy away from him, as I took it from him who was before you. 14 And I will establish him in My house and in My kingdom forever; and his throne shall be established forever.” ' “

    Psalms 16:9 Therefore my heart is glad, and my glory rejoices; My flesh also will rest in hope. 10 For You will not leave my soul in Sheol, Nor will You allow Your Holy One to see corruption. 11 You will show me the path of life; In Your presence is fullness of joy; At Your right hand are pleasures forevermore.

    Acts 13:22 And when He had removed him, He raised up for them David as king, to whom also He gave testimony and said, 'I have found David the son of Jesse, a man after My own heart, who will do all My will.' 23 From this man's seed, according to the promise, God raised up for Israel a Savior–Jesus–24 after John had first preached, before His coming, the baptism of repentance to all the people of Israel. 25 And as John was finishing his course, he said, 'Who do you think I am? I am not He. But behold, there comes One after me, the sandals of whose feet I am not worthy to loose.' 26 Men and brethren, sons of the family of Abraham, and those among you who fear God, to you the word of this salvation has been sent. 27 For those who dwell in Jerusalem, and their rulers, because they did not know Him, nor even the voices of the Prophets which are read every Sabbath, have fulfilled them in condemning Him. 28 And though they found no cause for death in Him, they asked Pilate that He should be put to death. 29 Now when they had fulfilled all that was written concerning Him, they took Him down from the tree and laid Him in a tomb. 30 But God raised Him from the dead. 31 He was seen for many days by those who came up with Him from Galilee to Jerusalem, who are His witnesses to the people. 32 And we declare to you glad tidings–that promise which was made to the fathers. 33 God has fulfilled this for us their children, in that He has raised up Jesus. As it is also written in the second Psalm: 'You are My Son, Today I have begotten You.' 34 And that He raised Him from the dead, no more to return to corruption, He has spoken thus: 'I will give you the sure mercies of David.' 35 Therefore He also says in another Psalm: 'You will not allow Your Holy One to see corruption.' 36 “For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell asleep, was buried with his fathers, and saw corruption; 37 but He whom God raised up saw no corruption. 38 Therefore let it be known to you, brethren, that through this Man is preached to you the forgiveness of sins; 39 and by Him everyone who believes is justified from all things from which you could not be justified by the law of Moses.

    Matthew22:28 Therefore, in the resurrection, whose wife of the seven will she be? For they all had her.” 29 Jesus answered and said to them, “You are mistaken, not knowing the Scriptures nor the power of God. 30 For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels of God in heaven. 31 But concerning the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what was spoken to you by God, saying, 32 'I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.” 33 And when the multitudes heard this, they were astonished at His teaching.

    Mark 12:25 For when they rise from the dead, they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven. 26 But concerning the dead, that they rise, have you not read in the book of Moses, in the burning bush passage, how God spoke to him, saying, 'I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'? 27 He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living. You are therefore greatly mistaken.”

    Luke 20:37 But even Moses showed in the burning bush passage that the dead are raised, when he called the Lord 'the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.'

    2 Timothy 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, according to the promise of life which is in Christ Jesus,

    1 John 2:25  And this is the promise that He has promised us–eternal life.

    John 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad.” 57 Then the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?” 58 Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”

    Jesus was the man promised to come before time began that would be the way to YHWH's PROMISE of eternal life. Abraham rejoiced for YHWH showed him the FUTURE of that day, the DAY when Christ was raised from the dead. Jesus IS the fulfillment of YHWH's great promise that existed before time began. Jesus never saw Abraham, Abraham saw the DAY of Jesus that was to come. Moses as well as David and other prophets were all given this same revelation. The Jew
    ish people were NEVER said to be waiting for a “spirit son” to give up his immortality and come down from heaven and become a human being. They were waiting for the HUMAN MESSIAH to come.

    John 3:12 If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things? 13 No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven.

    The Son of Man CAME DOWN from Heaven, meaning the fulfillment of a promise came, not some “spirit son”, morphing into a human being.

    Luke 1:67 Now his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Spirit, and prophesied, saying: 68 “Blessed is the Lord God of Israel, For He has visited and redeemed His people, 69 And has raised up a horn of salvation for us In the house of His servant David, 70 As He spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets, Who have been since the world began, 71 That we should be saved from our enemies And from the hand of all who hate us, 72 To perform the mercy promised to our fathers And to remember His holy covenant, 73 The oath which He swore to our father Abraham:

    John 6:31 Our fathers ate the manna in the desert; as it is written, 'He gave them bread from heaven to eat.' ” 32 Then Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, Moses did not give you the bread from heaven, but My Father gives you the true bread from heaven. 33 For the bread of God is He who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.” 34 Then they said to Him, “Lord, give us this bread always.” 35 And Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst. 36 But I said to you that you have seen Me and yet do not believe. 37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.

    There is NO will of a “spirit son”, who decided to give up some position in heaven to come down to earth be morphed into a human being and then die for us.  Not only does that idea not exist in the bible it is directly against the scriptures. It was the Father’s Will, and that will was for a man to be sent into the world at a specific time to become mankind’s savior.  As the manna is said to have come from heaven, so too is Jesus said to have come from heaven, does that mean that the bread pre-existed, or does it mean that the bread came through the direct planning and power of YHWH, just like Jesus came to us under the direct will and plan of the Father? Coming “down from  heaven” means COMING from YHWH!

    The message is not that some “spirit son” came to earth because his dad wanted him to and he likewise.  The message is that YHWH had a plan in the beginning, of which we know directly from scripture consisted of YHWH sending a human savior into the world. Jesus being referred to as being sent from heaven or coming from heaven, has absolutely nothing to do with pre-existing, but everything to do with the fact that YHWH can fulfill His promises, it is a testament to the power and wisdom of YHWH as well as the establishment of knowing we can fully trust IN HIM, that He will keep His promises.

    In the beginning was the word, that word was the promise of eternal life, that word was known before time began to come through one man….. a second Adam who would one day be sent into the world. That man was Jesus, and he fulfilled the word of YHWH bringing forth eternal life. Eternal life comes from the Spirit of YHWH.

    In the beginning was the Word, which was the PROMISE of Eternal Life.  That Word was With God in the form of His knowledge of the coming Messiah. That Word was YHWH because YHWH is Eternal Life!!

    #165287
    kerwin
    Participant

    Jodi Lee wrote:

    Quote

    In the beginning was the Word, which was the PROMISE of Eternal Life.  That Word was With God in the form of His knowledge of the coming Messiah. That Word was YHWH because YHWH is Eternal Life!!

    I seem to have a short attention span but your conclusion is well written.

    #165289

    :blues:

    The name of “Elohim can be carried by anyone through whom He chooses to ‘manifest’ or reveal Himself. So men and angels as well as Yeshua HaMoshiach can carry “Elohim’s name.

    This is a vital principle which opens up so much of the Bible to us.

    A son especially may carry the name of his father; he has certain similarities with his father, he may have the same first name – but he is not one and the same person as the father.

    In the same way a representative of a company may speak on behalf of the company; he may telephone someone on business and say, ‘Hello, this is Unilever here’; he is not Mr. Unilever, but he carries their name because he is working on their behalf.

    And so it was with Yeshua HaMoshiach.

    :blues:

    #165294

    :blues:

    ANGELS CARRY “ELOHIM’S NAME

    We are told in Ex. 23:20,21 that 'Elohim told the people of Israel that an angel would go ahead of them; “My name is in Him”, they were told.

    The personal name of 'Elohim is ‘Yahweh’.

    So the angel carried the name of Yahweh, and could thus be called ‘Yahweh’, or ‘The LORD’, in small capitals, as the word ‘Yahweh’ is translated in the N.I.V. and A.V.

    We are told in Ex. 33:20 that no man can see the face of 'Elohim and live; but in Ex. 33:11 we read that “The LORD (Yahweh) spoke to Moses face to face, as a man speaketh to his friend” – i.e. directly.

    It could not have been the LORD, Yahweh, Himself in person, who spoke to Moses face to face, because no man can see 'Elohim Himself.

    It was the angel who carried 'Elohim’s name who did so; and so we read of the LORD speaking face to face with Moses when it was actually an angel who did so (Acts 7:30 33).

    There are many other examples of the words ‘'Elohim’ and ‘LORD’ referring to the angels as opposed to 'Elohim Himself.

    One clear example is Gen. 1:26: “And 'Elohim (the angels) said, Let us make man in our image”.

    :blues:

    #165298

    :blues:

    MEN WITH 'ELOHIM’S NAME

    One of the passages which is most helpful in demonstrating all this is John 10:34-36.

    Here the Jews made the mistake which many do today.

    They thought that Yeshua HaMoshiach was saying he was 'Elohim Himself.

    Yeshua HaMoshiach corrected them by saying, “Is it not written in your law, I said, You are gods?

    If He called them ‘gods’…why do you say of (me)…’You blaspheme!’ because I said, I am the Son of 'Elohim?’.

    Yeshua HaMoshiach is really saying ‘In the Old Testament men are called ‘gods’; I am saying I am the Son of 'Elohim; so why are you getting so upset?’

    Yeshua HaMoshiach is actually quoting from Ps. 82, where the judges of Israel were called ‘gods’.

    As has been shown, the full name of G-d in Hebrew is ‘Yahweh Elohim’ – implying ‘He who will be revealed in a group of mighty ones’.

    The true believers are those in whom 'Elohim is revealed in a limited sense in this life.

    However, in the Kingdom, they will be ‘mighty ones’ in whom the LORD will be fully manifested.

    This is all beautifully shown by a comparison of Is. 64:4 and 1 Cor. 2:9. “Men have not heard, nor perceived by the ear, neither has the eye seen, O 'Elohim, besides you, what He has prepared for him that waits for him”.

    Paul quotes this in 1 Cor. 2:9,10: “It is written, Eye has not seen, nor ear heard, neither has entered into the heart of man, the things which 'Elohim has prepared for them that love Him. But 'Elohim has revealed them unto us by His Spirit”.

    The passage in Is. 64 says that no one except 'Elohim can understand the things He has prepared for the believers.

    However 1 Cor. 2:10 says that those things have been revealed to us.

    The priests were 'Elohim’s representatives, and for a man to ‘appear before the Lord’ effectively referred to his appearance before the priest.

    When we read of “men going up to 'Elohim at Bethel”, the ‘house of 'Elohim’ (1 Sam. 10:3), we aren’t to think that 'Elohim Himself lived in a house in Bethel.

    The reference is to the priests, his representative, being there.

    Not only is the Name of 'Elohim carried by people, but language and actions which are specific to 'Elohim are sometimes applied to humans who manifest Him.

    The daughter of Pharaoh who saved baby Moses is described in the very terms with which 'Elohim is described as saving His people Israel 'out of the water' just as Moses was saved.

    She came 'came down', 'sees' the suffering child, hears its cry, takes pity, draws him out of the water, provides for him (Ex. 2:23-25; 3:7,8).

    The parallels are surely to indicate that 'Elohim was willing to show Himself manifest in that Gentile woman in the salvation of His people.

    And of course the whole practical idea of 'Elohim manifestation' is that we consciously try to reflect the characteristics of 'Elohimd, for His Name is in fact a summary of His characteristics and personality (Ex. 34:4-6).

    :blues:

    #165299

    :blues:

    YESHUA HAMOSHIACH AND THE NAME OF 'ELOHIM

    It is not surprising that Yeshua HaMoshiach, as the Son of 'Elohim and His supreme manifestation to men, should also carry 'Elohim’s name.

    He could say “I am come in my Father’s name” (Jn. 5:43).

    Because of his obedience, Yeshua HaMoshiach ascended to heaven and 'Elohim “gave him a name which is above every name,” the name of Yahweh, of 'Elohim Himself (Phil. 2:9).

    So this is why we read Yeshua HaMoshiach saying in Rev. 3:12: “I will write upon him (the believer) the name of my 'Elohim. . . and I will write upon him my new name”. At the judgment Yeshua HaMoshiach will give us 'Elohim’s name; we then will fully carry the name of 'Elohim.

    He calls this name, “My new name”.

    Remember, Yeshua HaMoshiach gave the book of Revelation some years after his ascension into heaven and after he had been given 'Elohim’s name, as explained in Phil. 2:9.

    So he can call 'Elohim’s name “My new name”; the name he had recently been given.

    We can now properly understand Is. 9:6, where concerning Yeshua HaMoshiach we are told, “His name (note that) shall be called, Wonderful, Counsellor, the mighty 'Elohim, the everlasting Father. . .”.

    This is a prophecy that Yeshua HaMoshiach would carry all the name of 'Elohim, that he would be the total manifestation or revelation of 'Elohim to us.

    It was in this sense that he was called ‘Emmanuel’, meaning, 'Elohim is with us’, although He personally was not 'Elohim.

    Thus the prophecy of Joel 2 that men would call on the name of Yahweh was fulfilled by people being baptised into the name of Yeshua HaMoshiach (Acts 2:21 cf. 38).

    This also explains why the command to baptize into the name of the Father was fulfilled, as detailed in the Acts record, by baptism into the name of Yeshua HaMoshiach.

    The Jews were fierce monotheists, any idea that there was any 'Elohim apart from 'Elohim the Father was to them blasphemous.

    And yet their own writings have no problem in using the language of 'Elohim' in relation to men and Angels, e.g. Ezra addresses the Angel Uriel as 'Elohim Himself (2 Esdr. 5:43).

    It is this idea of ''Elohim manifestation' in a person or Angel which is so common in the Bible, and which inevitably at times is used about 'Elohim's own Son, Yeshua HaMoshiach.

    But the use of such language doesn't mean that Yeshua HaMoshiach is 'Elohim Himself in person.

    :blues:

    #165301

    :blues:

    Language Of 'Elohim Used About Yeshua HaMoshiach: Some Background

    We need to appreciate the extent to which the first century Middle East understood a messenger as being the very person of the one who sent him. R.J.Z. Werblowski and Geoffrey Wigoder in The Encyclopedia Of The Jewish Religion speak of “the Jewish Law of Agencies” or 'Schaliach', as: “The main point of the Jewish law of agency expressed in the dictum, “A person's agent is regarded as the person himself”. Therefore any act committed by a duly appointed agent is regarded as having been committed by the principle.” G.R.B. Murray comments that: “One sent is as he who sent him… The messenger [the Shaliach] is thereby granted authority and dignity by virtue of his bearing the status of the one who sent him. This is the more remarkable when it is borne in mind that in earlier times the messenger was commonly a slave”. Bearing this background in mind, it isn't surprising that language specific to 'Elohim is used about His Son and messenger.

    The idea is sometimes expressed that calling Yeshua HaMoshiach “Son of 'Elohim” somehow makes Him 'Elohim. Apart from the illogicality of this [a son isn't the same being as his father], the language of “Son of 'Elohim” is used in the Old Testament of men. Even the term “'Elohim” is used of men (Ps. 45:6; 82:6; Ex. 21:6; 22:8). The first century mind was quite used to men being called 'god' or Divine. The Jews were strongly monotheistic, paranoid of any implication that Yahweh was not the only 'Elohim; and yet they were happy to use the word “god” about men. Philo [a Jewish writer] spoke of Moses as “appointed by 'Elohim as god” and “no longer man but 'Elohim”. And of course the Greek and Roman rulers, both local and otherwise, were described with 'Divine' language- e.g. Antiochus Epiphanes means ''Elohim made manifest'. There was no understanding that these 'divine' titles therefore made these men to be 'Elohim Himself in person. Apollonius explains that “every man who is considered good is honoured with the title of “god”” (Apollonius Of Tyana 8.4). Indeed any hero, leader of King was addressed as 'Elohim'. We can see from Acts 14:11-13 and Acts 28:6 how easily first century folk were inclined to call a man “'Elohim” if he did miracles. I remember clearly in my early days of missionary work in Africa being called “Wazungu” or “Mazungu” by fascinated children who'd scarcely seen a white man before. And I recall my shock on discovering that this term means both “white man” and “'Elohim” (and is frequently used as such in translations of the Bible into Central and East African languages). But this is actually what was going on in the Hellenistic and Roman worlds. And so when Divine language was applied to Yeshua HaMoshiach, there is no reason to think that the first century mind would've concluded that therefore Yeshua HaMoshiach was 'Elohim Himself in person, just as those fascinated kids calling out “Wazungu! Wazungu!” as I walked by were hardly understanding me as 'Elohim Himself in person. Here we have one of the most glaring examples of problems arising from not reading 'Elohim's word with an appreciation of the context in which it was spoken and written. In European culture, it would be unheard of, or blasphemous and at best inappropriate, to call any man “'Elohim” or “Son of 'Elohim”. But this wasn't the case in the first century world. In that world, and it was against the background of that world that the New Testament was written, the use of Divine language about a person, or about Yeshua HaMoshiach the Son of 'Elohim, didn't make them 'Elohim Himself in person.

    Again and again we have to emphasize that we read the Biblical documents at a great distance from the culture in which they were first written. It was quite understandable for a person to carry the name of their superior, without being that superior in person. And so it was and is with the Lord Yeshua HaMoshiach. To give just one of many possible confirmations of this: “[In 2 Esdras 5:43-46]… 'Elohim's spokesman, the angel Uriel, is questioned by Ezra as though he were both Creator and Judge [which 'Elohim alone is]. Ezra uses the same style of address to Uriel (“My lord, my master”) as he uses in direct petition to 'Elohim. This practice of treating the agent as though he were the principal is of the greatest importance for New Testament Christology [i.e. the study of who Yeshua HaMashiach is]”. The acclamation of Thomas “My Lord and my 'Elohim!” must be understood within the context of first century usage, where as Paul says, many people were called Lord and “god” (1 Cor. 8:4-6). If we're invited by our manager “Come and meet the president”, we don't expect to meet the President of the USA. We expect to meet the president of the company. The word “president” can have more than one application, and it would be foolish to assume that in every case it referred to the President of the USA. And it's the same with the words “Lord” and “'Elohim” in their first century usage. Hence a Jewish non-trinitarian like Philo could call Moses “'Elohim and king of the whole nation” (Life Of Moses 1.158)- and nobody accused him of not being monotheistic! Significantly, there is in the New Testament the Greek word latreuo which specifically refers to the worship of 'Elohim, and this is always [21 times] applied to 'Elohim and not Yeshua HaMoshiach. The worship of Yeshua HaMoshiach that is recorded is always to 'Elohim's glory, and is recorded with the same words [especially proskuneo] used about the worship of believers (Rev. 3:9, Daniel (Dan. 2:46 LX), kings of Israel etc. (1 Chron. 29:20 LXX).

    It should be noted that “Many think that the list of titles in Is. 9:5 was borrowed from the traditional titles of the monarchs of other countries, especially of the Egyptian pharaoh… the title applied to the king of Judah portrays him as one specially favoured by 'Elohim, e.g. “the divine mighty one” or “divine warrior”, Raymond Brown, An Introduction To New Testament Christology (London: Geoffrey Chapman, 1994) p. 187.

    George R. Beasley Murray, Gospel of Life: Theology In The Fourth Gospel (Peabody, Mass.: Hendrickson, 1991), p.18.

    Citations in James Dunn, Christology In The Making (Philadelphia: Westminster, 1980) p. 17.

    For documentation, see D. Cuss, Imperial Cult And Honorary Terms In The New Testament (Fribourg: Fribourg University Press, 1974) pp. 134-140.

    G.B. Caird, The Language And Imagery Of The Bible (Philadelphia: Westminster, 1980) p. 181.

    :blues:

    #165304
    kerwin
    Participant

    Constitutionalist wrote:

    Quote

    Yeshua HaMoshiach is actually quoting from Ps. 82, where the judges of Israel were called ‘gods’.

    There is also this verse.

    Psalms 138:1(NIV) reads:

    Quote

    I will praise you, O LORD, with all my heart;
          before the “gods” I will sing your praise.

    This is where he calls them gods as the children of God are “gods”.

    Deuteronomy 14:1(NIV) reads:

    Quote

    [ Clean and Unclean Food ] You are the children of the LORD your God. Do not cut yourselves or shave the front of your heads for the dead,

    #165311

    You are correct, and don't see things like these.
    Trinitarians can't compare verses for some reason.

    #165312
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (Constitutionalist @ Dec. 19 2009,17:41)
    You are correct, and don't see things like these.
    Trinitarians can't compare verses for some reason.


    Trinitarians also think the image of God is God as if the image of me in the mirror is me.  Logical reasoning is not their strong point.

    #165319
    KangarooJack
    Participant

    Quote (Constitutionalist @ Dec. 19 2009,22:41)
    You are correct, and don't see things like these.
    Trinitarians can't compare verses for some reason.


    1 “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.”

    10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. 11 He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him.  

    14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.”

    Okay, explain what it is about the statements highlighted in bold that you do not understand.

    thinker

    #165321
    KangarooJack
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 19 2009,22:54)

    Quote (Constitutionalist @ Dec. 19 2009,17:41)
    You are correct, and don't see things like these.
    Trinitarians can't compare verses for some reason.


    Trinitarians also think the image of God is God as if the image of me in the mirror is me.  Logical reasoning is not their strong point.


    Misrepresentation! Hebrews 1 says that the Son is the express image of God's substance. It means that Christ's being was not derived. The sun's rays are the “exact image” of the sun's substance.

    The term “express image” or “exact representation” is NEVER used of other men. At best it means the Son is God. In the least it means that Jesus was a unique man.

    thinker

    #165325

    Quote (thethinker @ Dec. 19 2009,06:56)

    Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 19 2009,22:54)

    Quote (Constitutionalist @ Dec. 19 2009,17:41)
    You are correct, and don't see things like these.
    Trinitarians can't compare verses for some reason.


    Trinitarians also think the image of God is God as if the image of me in the mirror is me.  Logical reasoning is not their strong point.


    Misrepresentation! Hebrews 1 says that the Son is the express image of God's substance. It means that Christ's being was not derived. The sun's rays are the “exact image” of the sun's substance.

    The term “express image” or “exact representation” is NEVER used of other men. At best it means the Son is God. In the least it means that Jesus was a unique man.

    thinker


    Yes Yeshua HaMoshiach was a very unique man.

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