John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 3,401 through 3,420 (of 26,009 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #155583
    Ed J
    Participant

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 08 2009,14:11)
    Hi ED,
    Why would anyone join in such folly?
    So why do you ask such silly questions?


    Hi Nick,

    Did you ever study with the JW's in the past?
    This question is very similar to the past question I asked.
    And the reason I ask, is I have and, it appears to me that you
    hold to some of their beliefs. That is why I asked, I meant no disrespect.

    God bless
    Ed J

    #155584
    Ed J
    Participant

    Quote (georg @ Nov. 09 2009,03:09)
    Helo Ed!  Thank you for that Post.  Maybe we should all step back and realize who really the enemy is.
    Peace and Love Irene


    Hi Irene,

    Bible studying together with fellow believers (Hebrews 10:25) helps us to fulfill this prophecy…

    Eph 5:27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot,
    or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

    God bless
    Ed J
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.com

    #155585
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi ED,
    Never.

    They believe that Jesus is not the God of the Jews but that is not a unique understanding.

    What of you?

    #155591
    Ed J
    Participant

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 09 2009,08:19)
    Hi ED,
    Never.

    They believe that Jesus is not the God of the Jews but that is not a unique understanding.

    What of you?


    Hi Nick,

    This question you ask me may seem simple to you, but I could not answer it in
    just a little snippet. In the free e-book called “HolyCityBibleCode” I address in
    great detail (according to my understanding) “God The Father”, “Jesus”, and the “Holy Spirit”

    I believe the story begins at John 15:27, I believe this verses meaning was not merely
    speaking of Jesus disciples and the beginning of his ministry; I believe the Exegesis meaning
    is what happened before we came to planet Earth to exist as Humans; everybody’s pre-existence.

    YÄ-shü-ă was the mirror image of GOD; because he was perfect.
    When we become perfect, the same thing that happened to him begins happening to us. (John 15:20)

    I will use a scenario; please don’t get hung up on it,
    keep in mind this is like using the example of a mirror to explain a person.

    People see a perfect person as a reflection of themselves; this is why the Pharisees
    hated him, because they really hated the way they are! Let me give you an example
    of this. Let’s say a person who is a slacker gets a job at Wal-Mart. When he sees a
    person (other than himself) sitting down on company time and getting away with it,
    he gets upset (but he doesn’t know that this because of the weakness in his character).

    Please don’t misunderstand, I didn’t mean that the person sitting down was perfect.
    This story explains the meaning of the verses of Psalms 18:24-25.

    People see the weaknesses in their own character in others.

    WE CANNOT ACCORDING TO THE MANY SATAN LIES BE PERFECT HERE ON EARTH!
    This phrase cannot be pulled out of context; which he always tries to get people to do!

    “be perfect here on Earth”
    “Satan Lies be perfect here on Earth”
    “according to the many Satan Lies”
    “We cannot according to the many”
    “to the many Satan Lies be perfect”
    and so on.

    I need to stop right here to make sure that we see I (eye) to I (eye) on this.

    God bless
    Ed J

    #155601
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Quote (georg @ Nov. 08 2009,15:07)

    Quote (Gene @ Nov. 08 2009,14:23)
    Ed J…………You are right the word is and was GOD. John 1:1 no where mentions Jesus' name and rather these people believe it or not John knew how to spell Jesus' name if that is who he was referring to.  False religion has interchanged the word (word) for Jesus.

     Just like a mans words are connected to him so are God's words connected to him also. These people have the nerve to say we are viewing it wrong because we don't share in changing the text as they do, to fit there religious conceptions of trinity and preexistences theologies.

    The words of GOD (ARE) GOD and are life and are spirit. Jesus said the words i am telling you (ARE) SPIRIT AND THEY (ARE) LIFE. Jesus also said the WORDS WERE (NOT) HIS WORDS. But closed minds can not understand that. They think Jesus is the WORD when in fact he was speaking GOD'S WORDS TO US. So how does that make (HIM) the WORD then, seeing the words were not his words he was speaking.  IMO

    gene


    Gene  In John 1:14 It says that the Word became flesh.  So who is then that became flesh?  Did God become flesh?  And who are these people?  
    Irene


    Irene…….it is (IMPOSSIBLE) for a word to (BECOME) FLESH, a word is SPIRIT (NOT) Flesh, God is not flesh He is Spirit and Spirit does not have Flesh. Spirit can only come to be (IN) flesh. Flesh is (NOT) SPIRIT , Jesus was (flesh and blood) and Not a Spirit as He said . He did have spirit of GOD (IN) Him though. You are forcing the text to try to make Jesus a Man, a Spirit. Spirit is (NEVER) Flesh, ever. IMO

    love and peace to you and Georg………………..gene

    #161804
    KangarooJack
    Participant

    Quote (Gene @ Nov. 09 2009,13:25)

    Quote (georg @ Nov. 08 2009,15:07)

    Quote (Gene @ Nov. 08 2009,14:23)
    Ed J…………You are right the word is and was GOD. John 1:1 no where mentions Jesus' name and rather these people believe it or not John knew how to spell Jesus' name if that is who he was referring to.  False religion has interchanged the word (word) for Jesus.

     Just like a mans words are connected to him so are God's words connected to him also. These people have the nerve to say we are viewing it wrong because we don't share in changing the text as they do, to fit there religious conceptions of trinity and preexistences theologies.

    The words of GOD (ARE) GOD and are life and are spirit. Jesus said the words i am telling you (ARE) SPIRIT AND THEY (ARE) LIFE. Jesus also said the WORDS WERE (NOT) HIS WORDS. But closed minds can not understand that. They think Jesus is the WORD when in fact he was speaking GOD'S WORDS TO US. So how does that make (HIM) the WORD then, seeing the words were not his words he was speaking.  IMO

    gene


    Gene  In John 1:14 It says that the Word became flesh.  So who is then that became flesh?  Did God become flesh?  And who are these people?  
    Irene


    Irene…….it is (IMPOSSIBLE) for a word to (BECOME) FLESH, a word is SPIRIT (NOT) Flesh,  God is not flesh He is Spirit and Spirit does not have Flesh. Spirit can only come to be  (IN)  flesh.  Flesh is (NOT) SPIRIT , Jesus was (flesh and blood) and Not a Spirit as He said .  He did have spirit of GOD (IN) Him though. You are forcing the text to try to make Jesus a Man, a Spirit. Spirit is (NEVER) Flesh, ever.  IMO

    love and peace to you and Georg………………..gene


    To All,
    Did you notice Gene's double talk. He said that a spirit cannot “become” flesh. It can only “come to be” in flesh.

    Would someone like to tell me the difference?

    thinker

    #161864
    kerwin
    Participant

    To all,

    What is the error in this logical argument?

    God is the Word.
    Scripture is the Word.
    Therefore God is Scripture.

    All must therefore worship Scripture which would be idolatry.

    The argument is flawed so please do not assume otherwise.

    #162102
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    thinker………you and your word are the same thing. GOD and His Words are the same thing. A word cannot be flesh it can only be (IN) a flesh person, this is simple understanding why can't you get it? IMO

    gene

    #162389
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Quote (thethinker @ Dec. 03 2009,06:07)

    Quote (Gene @ Nov. 09 2009,13:25)

    Quote (georg @ Nov. 08 2009,15:07)

    Quote (Gene @ Nov. 08 2009,14:23)
    Ed J…………You are right the word is and was GOD. John 1:1 no where mentions Jesus' name and rather these people believe it or not John knew how to spell Jesus' name if that is who he was referring to.  False religion has interchanged the word (word) for Jesus.

     Just like a mans words are connected to him so are God's words connected to him also. These people have the nerve to say we are viewing it wrong because we don't share in changing the text as they do, to fit there religious conceptions of trinity and preexistences theologies.

    The words of GOD (ARE) GOD and are life and are spirit. Jesus said the words i am telling you (ARE) SPIRIT AND THEY (ARE) LIFE. Jesus also said the WORDS WERE (NOT) HIS WORDS. But closed minds can not understand that. They think Jesus is the WORD when in fact he was speaking GOD'S WORDS TO US. So how does that make (HIM) the WORD then, seeing the words were not his words he was speaking.  IMO

    gene


    Gene  In John 1:14 It says that the Word became flesh.  So who is then that became flesh?  Did God become flesh?  And who are these people?  
    Irene


    Irene…….it is (IMPOSSIBLE) for a word to (BECOME) FLESH, a word is SPIRIT (NOT) Flesh,  God is not flesh He is Spirit and Spirit does not have Flesh. Spirit can only come to be  (IN)  flesh.  Flesh is (NOT) SPIRIT , Jesus was (flesh and blood) and Not a Spirit as He said .  He did have spirit of GOD (IN) Him though. You are forcing the text to try to make Jesus a Man, a Spirit. Spirit is (NEVER) Flesh, ever.  IMO

    love and peace to you and Georg………………..gene


    To All,
    Did you notice Gene's double talk. He said that a spirit cannot “become” flesh. It can only “come to be” in flesh.

    Would someone like to tell me the difference?

    thinker


    thinker ……..are you serious , you really don't know the difference between Flesh and Spirit, Let me help you when a man dies his (spirit) returns to him who gave (IT), His body goes to the grave and turns back to dust. Jesus said WORDS (ARE) SPIRIT, so that means a WORD can not be FLESH. Hope that helped some.

    gene

    #162392
    peace2all
    Participant

    bible says that jesus resided with his father in heaven as a spirit being but was also created by a miracle from god he made him a perfect human. no man was used to create jesus, this was done through god as a miracle. god, jesus and angels are all spirit beings. by the way angels did come to earth and come in flesh and proceeded to make relations with human women and create giant nephlam. so spirit beings have manafested in flesh.

    the word refers to jesus: john 1:18 – no one has ever seen god. but verse 14 says the word became fleshand dwelt among us. it also in vrese 1,2 states tht the word was with god. how can you be with someone yet be that person also, that makes no sense.

    john 17:3 – jesus states that his father is the only true god.

    hebrew 1:3 he sat at the right hand of god.

    this in conjunction to other scriptures clearly defines jesus throughout . it when applied to other scriptures must be and have the same meaning and consitancy. it cannot be one thing but also be another

    #162455
    kerwin
    Participant

    peace2all wrote:

    Quote

    bible says that jesus resided with his father in heaven as a spirit being but was also created by a miracle from god he  made him a perfect human.

    I certainly do not remember that explicitly being written in scripture therefore you are deriving it from other scriptures.  What are the scriptures that you are using and the logic based on those scriptures to reach the conclusion you have?

    Here is an argument.  A demon is a spiritual being.  One demon takes on the form of a human being.  Is that demon now a human being or a demon with the body of a human?

    #162465
    peace2all
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 07 2009,02:32)
    peace2all wrote:

    Quote

    bible says that jesus resided with his father in heaven as a spirit being but was also created by a miracle from god he  made him a perfect human.

    I certainly do not remember that explicitly being written in scripture therefore you are deriving it from other scriptures.  What are the scriptures that you are using and the logic based on those scriptures to reach the conclusion you have?

    Here is an argument.  A demon is a spiritual being.  One demon takes on the form of a human being.  Is that demon now a human being or a demon with the body of a human?


    why do you want to argue, just accept truth if it is shown.

    does god want you to have faith and believe or continue to try to disprove his words.

    really you don't or haven't read of any scriptures that said jesus was first in heaven with his father before comming to earth. you havent read that jesus was returning to to whence he came. what bible do you use?

    john 6:38 -for i have come down from heaven , not to do my will but the will of him who sent me. this is the will of the father

    john 8:23 – you are from beneath, i am from above, you are from this world, i am not of this world

    jhn 17:5 – glorify me together with yourself with the glory i had with you before the world was.

    colossians 1:15-17 – he is the image of the invisible god the firstborn over all creation. for by him all things that were created i nheaven and on earth ,all things were created through him and for him.

    luke 1:30-40

    proverbs 8:22 – god possed me at the beginning of his way before his works of old. i have been established from everlasting, from the beginning before there was ever a earth

    proverbs 8:27-31 – when he prepared the heavens i was there, then it goes on to say the things on the earth, verse 30 reads — then i was beside him as a master craftsman

    i'm sure there are others, im kinda new to this all.

    #162466
    peace2all
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 07 2009,02:32)
    peace2all wrote:

    Quote

    bible says that jesus resided with his father in heaven as a spirit being but was also created by a miracle from god he  made him a perfect human.

    I certainly do not remember that explicitly being written in scripture therefore you are deriving it from other scriptures.  What are the scriptures that you are using and the logic based on those scriptures to reach the conclusion you have?

    Here is an argument.  A demon is a spiritual being.  One demon takes on the form of a human being.  Is that demon now a human being or a demon with the body of a human?


    really so jesus wasnt perfect and by god having mary give birth by his will is not a miracle or different than being a mere human man created from dust? created by means of human conception of man and woman.

    hmm

    #162484
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    peace2all…….you are under obligation to show where it says that Jesus resided with his father in heaven as a spirit being but was also created by a miracle from god he made a perfect human. You will find no such scriptures in the bible, you have bought into the Trinitain and Preexistence Doctrines. Jesus never preexisted His berth on earth except in the plan of GOD. Forcing the text to try to make it come out that was is pure Trinitarian tactics and part of MYSTERY RELIGIONS TEACHINGS. IMO

    peace and love …………….gene

    #162541
    peace2all
    Participant

    those scriptures cleary state jesus was with god. proverbs 8 clearly says that when the heavens were prepared tht he was with him and tht god thru jesus created all things.

    colosians says jesus was the firstborn of all creation and was used to create all.

    scriptures say he was there, it dosn't say jesus was a thought. something thats there, has been made to be. a thought or idea is not there and able to do things and be somewhere if its not anything.

    there are spirit beings tht were also there before the earth. do you deny that too. so was “satan” before he became that name/spirit person.
    there are armies of spirits or angels.

    you sure you can read.

    does me using miracle for what god did not sit right. not a bad word to use. i mean jesus was not born from man, but god made it happen. he sent his son. how can he send something that isn't anything. if it was a thought or plan then it would have then originated on earth then and never had been able to go back from where he came.

    and god sent his only begotten thought
    and god sent his only begotten plan.

    john 17:5 – o father glorify me together with yourself with the glory which i had before the world was.

    so here he says he wants to have the glory he had when he was in heaven before the world was created. as the bible says god thru jesus all was created. so you idea that jesus was thought or plan or idea does not fit at all.

    yuo need to read teh scriptures for what they reveal, which is th etruth adn not use your own opinon. nothing leads or says he was a thought.

    clearly says he was there with his father.

    #162576
    kerwin
    Participant

    peace2all wrote:

    Quote

    why do you want to argue, just accept truth if it is shown.

    I asked a question and you chose not to answer it.  The question being “is the body of a human being with a demon soul a human or a demon?”  Are you afraid of the answer?

    peace2all wrote:

    Quote

    john 6:38 -for i have come down from heaven , not to do my will but the will of him who sent me. this is the will of the father

    John 6:38 does not explicitly state that Jesus is preexistent.  You are assuming that is true.   Do you doubt that God sent Jesus  as he sent the prophets before hand?  Do you doubt that they were ordained by heaven?  Where else do you think the people of God come from if not from heaven?  If you are truly a servant of God then you to come from above as you actions will testify.

    peace2all wrote:

    Quote

    john 8:23 – you are from beneath, i am from above, you are from this world, i am not of this world

    This one does not explicitly state Jesus was preexistent but it does state those who do the works of their father the devil are from below which is why they would die in their sins.  He was obviously not speaking about believers.

    peace2all wrote:

    Quote

    jhn 17:5 – glorify me together with yourself with the glory i had with you before the world was.

    This also does not explicitly state Jesus is preexistent.   I would state you have trouble comprehending the sentence since it in other words states “apply the glory today you have waiting for me before the world existed“.   He obviously is not stating that he was glorified before the world began or he would not ask to be glorified at that time.

    peace2all wrote:

    Quote

    colossians 1:15-17 – he is the image of the invisible god the firstborn over all creation. for by  him all things that were created in heaven and on earth ,all things were created through him and for him.

    This scripture does not explicitly state Jesus is preexistent.  It is true that through Jesus we are all a new creation for the first has passed away.   If we were all in created through Jesus in the first place then no hope for salvation remains as we have all gone astray.   It is through the new covenant that one is created in Jesus or do you believe scripture is wrong on that point.  I ask because that is the point you are making.

    peace2all wrote:

    Quote

    proverbs 8:22 – god possed me at the beginning of his way before his works of old. i have been established from everlasting, from the beginning before there was ever a earth

    proverbs 8:27-31 – when he prepared the heavens i was there, then it goes on to say the things on the earth, verse 30 reads — then i was beside him as a master craftsman

    These two are about Wisdom and not about Jesus.  John 1:1 is speaking of God’s Word which is wisdom and so they do apply to John 1:1 though they obviously do not explicitly state Jesus is preexistent since they are not about him.

    peace2all wrote:

    Quote

    luke 1:30-40

    I am not sure what version of scripture you chose to use so I am not addressing it specifically.  I can address the passage by pointing out that in verse 33 the King James Version states the angel spoke in the future tense by stating “He shall be great.”  the New International Version uses similar words.    In verse 31 the angel tells Mary Jesus will be formed in her womb which is obviously not beforehand.  In other words this passage certainly does not explicitly state Jesus ii preexistent and actually states he would be formed in Mary’s womb.  The question is do you believe scripture when it explicitly states Jesus was conceived in Mary’s womb or do you believe in the traditions of man.

    peace2all wrote:

    Quote

    i'm sure there are others, im kinda new to this all.

    I consider that a plus since there is a lot of deception that Satan has put into modern Christian doctrines and I believe those who have been immersed in any of them for a briefer time may have a better chance of seeing though it as they become more informed.

    I assure you that scripture is true when it states Jesus is a human being just like you and me though he unlike us and always been and remains totally faithful to God.   It is through faith in him and so obeying all his teachings that we too can claim that prize for he leads us true.   Trust in Jesus.  Trust in God.

    #162620
    peace2all
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 07 2009,11:00)
    peace2all wrote:

    Quote

    why do you want to argue, just accept truth if it is shown.

    I asked a question and you chose not to answer it.  The question being “is the body of a human being with a demon soul a human or a demon?”  Are you afraid of the answer?

    peace2all wrote:

    Quote

    john 6:38 -for i have come down from heaven , not to do my will but the will of him who sent me. this is the will of the father

    John 6:38 does not explicitly state that Jesus is preexistent.  You are assuming that is true.   Do you doubt that God sent Jesus  as he sent the prophets before hand?  Do you doubt that they were ordained by heaven?  Where else do you think the people of God come from if not from heaven?  If you are truly a servant of God then you to come from above as you actions will testify.

    peace2all wrote:

    Quote

    john 8:23 – you are from beneath, i am from above, you are from this world, i am not of this world

    This one does not explicitly state Jesus was preexistent but it does state those who do the works of their father the devil are from below which is why they would die in their sins.  He was obviously not speaking about believers.

    peace2all wrote:

    Quote

    jhn 17:5 – glorify me together with yourself with the glory i had with you before the world was.

    This also does not explicitly state Jesus is preexistent.   I would state you have trouble comprehending the sentence since it in other words states “apply the glory today you have waiting for me before the world existed“.   He obviously is not stating that he was glorified before the world began or he would not ask to be glorified at that time.

    peace2all wrote:

    Quote

    colossians 1:15-17 – he is the image of the invisible god the firstborn over all creation. for by  him all things that were created in heaven and on earth ,all things were created through him and for him.

    This scripture does not explicitly state Jesus is preexistent.  It is true that through Jesus we are all a new creation for the first has passed away.   If we were all in created through Jesus in the first place then no hope for salvation remains as we have all gone astray.   It is through the new covenant that one is created in Jesus or do you believe scripture is wrong on that point.  I ask because that is the point you are making.

    peace2all wrote:

    Quote

    proverbs 8:22 – god possed me at the beginning of his way before his works of old. i have been established from everlasting, from the beginning before there was ever a earth

    proverbs 8:27-31 – when he prepared the heavens i was there, then it goes on to say the things on the earth, verse 30 reads — then i was beside him as a master craftsman

    These two are about Wisdom and not about Jesus.  John 1:1 is speaking of God’s Word which is wisdom and so they do apply to John 1:1 though they obviously do not explicitly state Jesus is preexistent since they are not about him.

    peace2all wrote:

    Quote

    luke 1:30-40

    I am not sure what version of scripture you chose to use so I am not addressing it specifically.  I can address the passage by pointing out that in verse 33 the King James Version states the angel spoke in the future tense by stating “He shall be great.”  the New International Version uses similar words.    In verse 31 the angel tells Mary Jesus will be formed in her womb which is obviously not beforehand.  In other words this passage certainly does not explicitly state Jesus ii preexistent and actually states he would be formed in Mary’s womb.  The question is do you believe scripture when it explicitly states Jesus was conceived in Mary’s womb or do you believe in the traditions of man.

    peace2all wrote:

    Quote

    i'm sure there are others, im kinda new to this all.

    I consider that a plus since there is a lot of deception that Satan has put into modern Christian doctrines and I believe those who have been immersed in any of them for a briefer time may have a better chance of seeing though it as they become more informed.

    I assure you that scripture is true when it states Jesus is a human being just like you and me though he unlike us and always been and remains totally faithful to God.   It is through faith in him and so obeying all his teachings that we too can claim that prize for he leads us true.   Trust in Jesus.  Trust in God.


    i am not affraid of the question but for one, we were not talking about wahtever it is you are trying to prove, you are turning away from what was in discussion and adding things that doesn't matter or pertain to what was at hand.

    what will you gain from that question?

    if a person is controlled/have entered by a demon they would be still a person.

    but if a demon manifested into the form of man as in noahs day they would not be man. for they did leave earthy form and go back to spirit form and left the earth before the flood.

    we were created from god through jesus from the earth. we were not created in heaven in sprit form then come to earth.

    the scriptures state jesus as saying he was with god and that he came from the heavens , he is stated to be the firstborn of creation.

    he was before all other things. so for him to be nothing except a idea as you say is only your opinion and not what the bible teaches.

    you offer nothing but your speculation. not god's scriptures.

    if the bible says that jesus was the firstborn of creation and was before all and helped create all things and says that he was with god from the start in heaven

    then you better believe it. i am not adding my opinon or assumption to it .

    the bible tells us clearly.

    john 8:23 – you are from beneath, i am from above, you are from this world, i am not of this world

    (((This one does not explicitly state Jesus was preexistent))

    really it clearly says he is from heaven and we are from the earth. he is sprirt being we are man made from the earth created by god through jesus, as the bible says also.

    he was crated by god in hea
    ven. did god create you in heaven then send you to earth?

    (((Where else do you think the people of God come from if not from heaven?)))

    i'm a offspring of adam & eve..as is all man!!!!!! they were made from out of the earth and will return to the earth, dust we were created adn dust we will return. did you not read genesis???

    genesis 3:19 will help you.

    you really don't know?? you really think you were made in heaven then brought to earth??

    WOW your a angel, a spirit being.. WOW

    #162624
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 07 2009,11:00)
    I asked a question and you chose not to answer it. The question being “is the body of a human being with a demon soul a human or a demon?” Are you afraid of the answer?


    A possessed human.

    THe flesh is there, the person who inhabits the body is the soul, and a demon spirit or host can reside too.

    #162625
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Quote (peace2all @ Dec. 07 2009,08:18)
    those scriptures cleary state jesus was with god. proverbs 8 clearly says that when the heavens were prepared tht he was with him and tht god thru jesus created all things.

    colosians says jesus was the firstborn of all creation and was used to create all.

    scriptures say he was there, it dosn't say jesus was a thought. something thats there, has been made to be. a thought or idea is not there and able to do things and be somewhere if its not anything.

    there are spirit beings tht were also there before the earth. do you deny that too. so was  “satan” before he became that name/spirit person.
    there are armies of spirits or angels.

    you sure you can read.

    does me using miracle for what god did not sit right. not a bad word to use. i mean jesus was not born from man, but god made it happen. he sent his son. how can he send something that isn't anything. if it was a thought or plan then it would have then originated on earth then and never had been able to go back from where he came.

    and god sent his only begotten thought
    and god sent his only begotten plan.

    john 17:5 – o father glorify me together with yourself with the glory which i had before the world was.

    so here he says he wants to have the glory he had when he was in heaven before the world was created. as the bible says god thru jesus all was created. so you idea that jesus was thought or plan or idea does not fit at all.

    yuo need to read teh scriptures for what they reveal, which is th etruth adn not use your own opinon. nothing leads or says he was a thought.

    clearly says he was there with his father.


    I agree.

    #162628
    peace2all
    Participant

    proverbs 8:27-31 – when he prepared the heavens i was there, then it goes on to say the things on the earth were created , verse 30 reads — then i was beside him as a master craftsman

    does that sound like jesus is only a thought or idea. so if the bible says that jesus was the firstborn creation and all things wer emade through him by god and that he (jesus) was beside him as a master craftsman.

    humm??? well a idea is not a master craftsman but someone who actually was and was used to create would be.

    you own opinion makes no sense when actually used in scriptures.

    the scripture says that jesus was there beside god as a master craftsman.

    how you can deny that and add your own to it. are you jut pulling my leg or are you for real???

    a thought or idea or plan is not something to be described as someone saying they were there creating and being a master craftsman.

    you need t oread before you try to disprove god's word tht is right there clearly and not confusing or without a cetain point

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