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John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

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Discussion

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  • December 7, 2009 at 3:19 am#162642
    Ed J
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 07 2009,11:00)
     In other words this passage certainly does not explicitly state Jesus ii preexistent and actually states he would be formed in Mary’s womb.  
    The question is do you believe scripture when it explicitly states Jesus was conceived in Mary’s womb or do you believe in the traditions of man.


    Hi Kerwin,

    What's your take on this verse?

    Jer.1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee;
    and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee,
    and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

    God bless
    Ed J
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

    December 7, 2009 at 4:00 am#162663
    bodhitharta
    Participant

    Quote (Ed J @ Dec. 07 2009,14:19)

    Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 07 2009,11:00)
     In other words this passage certainly does not explicitly state Jesus ii preexistent and actually states he would be formed in Mary’s womb.  
    The question is do you believe scripture when it explicitly states Jesus was conceived in Mary’s womb or do you believe in the traditions of man.


    Hi Kerwin,

    What's your take on this verse?

    Jer.1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee;
    and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee,
    and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

    God bless
    Ed J
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org


    was that not about Jeremiah?

    December 7, 2009 at 4:06 am#162666
    bodhitharta
    Participant

    Quote (peace2all @ Dec. 07 2009,13:07)
    proverbs 8:27-31 – when he prepared the heavens i was there, then it goes on to say the things on the earth were created , verse 30 reads — then i was beside him as a master craftsman

    does that sound like jesus is only a thought or idea. so if the bible says that jesus was the firstborn creation and all things wer emade through him by god and that he (jesus) was beside him as a master craftsman.

    humm??? well a idea is not a master craftsman but someone who actually was and was used to create would be.

    you own opinion makes no sense when actually used in scriptures.

    the scripture says that jesus was there beside god as a master craftsman.

    how you can deny that and add your own to it. are you jut pulling my leg or are you for real???

    a thought or idea or plan is not something to be described as someone saying they were there creating and being a master craftsman.

    you need t oread before you try to disprove god's word tht is right there clearly and not confusing or without a cetain point


    So now Jesus is a she?

    Proverbs 8
    1Doth not wisdom cry? and understanding put forth her voice?

    2She standeth in the top of high places, by the way in the places of the paths.

    3She crieth at the gates, at the entry of the city, at the coming in at the doors.

    4 months? study more and post less, maybe? :cool:

    December 7, 2009 at 4:38 am#162676
    peace2all
    Participant

    Quote (bodhitharta @ Dec. 07 2009,15:06)

    Quote (peace2all @ Dec. 07 2009,13:07)
    proverbs 8:27-31 – when he prepared the heavens i was there, then it goes on to say the things on the earth were created , verse 30 reads — then i was beside him as a master craftsman

    does that sound like jesus is only a thought or idea. so if the bible says that jesus was the firstborn creation and all things wer emade through him by god and that he (jesus) was beside him as a master craftsman.

    humm??? well a idea is not a master craftsman but someone who actually was and was used to create would be.

    you own opinion makes no sense when actually used in scriptures.

    the scripture says that jesus was there beside god as a master craftsman.

    how you can deny that and add your own to it. are you jut pulling my leg or are you for real???

    a thought or idea or plan is not something to be described as someone saying they were there creating and being a master craftsman.

    you need t oread before you try to disprove god's word tht is right there clearly and not confusing or without a cetain point


    So now Jesus is a she?

    Proverbs 8
    1Doth not wisdom cry? and understanding put forth her voice?

    2She standeth in the top of high places, by the way in the places of the paths.

    3She crieth at the gates, at the entry of the city, at the coming in at the doors.

    4 months? study more and post less, maybe? :cool:


    what are you talking about?????

    it says proverbs 8:27-31

    where do you get 8:1-3

    now u attack me for your mistake.

    did all those who bear witness or were used by god , were they all so knowledgeable and all knowing.

    did they have all insight and never needing to learn, did they not have help from gods holy spirit.

    you think you know all and there is nothing you don't know, you act as if there is nothing to learn.

    your eyes are blinded.

    bibloe says do not boast oneself, thts why works of man is not the way to salvation.

    you boast and think your not needing any truth or light.

    December 7, 2009 at 4:41 am#162678
    peace2all
    Participant

    Quote (bodhitharta @ Dec. 07 2009,15:06)

    Quote (peace2all @ Dec. 07 2009,13:07)
    proverbs 8:27-31 – when he prepared the heavens i was there, then it goes on to say the things on the earth were created , verse 30 reads — then i was beside him as a master craftsman

    does that sound like jesus is only a thought or idea. so if the bible says that jesus was the firstborn creation and all things wer emade through him by god and that he (jesus) was beside him as a master craftsman.

    humm??? well a idea is not a master craftsman but someone who actually was and was used to create would be.

    you own opinion makes no sense when actually used in scriptures.

    the scripture says that jesus was there beside god as a master craftsman.

    how you can deny that and add your own to it. are you jut pulling my leg or are you for real???

    a thought or idea or plan is not something to be described as someone saying they were there creating and being a master craftsman.

    you need t oread before you try to disprove god's word tht is right there clearly and not confusing or without a cetain point


    So now Jesus is a she?

    Proverbs 8
    1Doth not wisdom cry? and understanding put forth her voice?

    2She standeth in the top of high places, by the way in the places of the paths.

    3She crieth at the gates, at the entry of the city, at the coming in at the doors.

    4 months? study more and post less, maybe? :cool:


    proof you ignore what is there. you truely don't read, you already think you know.

    December 8, 2009 at 6:19 am#162891
    kerwin
    Participant

    peace2all wrote:

    Quote

    what will you gain from that question?

    I am seeking to find what you believe makes the individual.  Is it the soul or the flesh?   It is relevant to whether your doctrine is internally consistent as Jesus is either a human being or a spiritual being since if you were both you would be a hybrid.

    peace2all wrote:

    Quote

    we were created from god through jesus from the earth. we were not created in heaven in sprit form then come to earth.

    It does not state that in the bible.

    peace2all wrote:

    Quote

    the scriptures states jesus as saying he was with god and that he came from the heavens , he is stated to be the firstborn of creation.

    They do not state that as I pointed out.  You are the one who interprets the words of those scriptures in such a way.

    peace2all wrote:

    Quote

    you offer nothing but your speculation. not god's scriptures.

    You should actually be careful to read scriptures which do in fact say just what I did.  

    Here are some that teach about the new creation that is created in the Anointed One.

    Romans 8:18-25(NIV) reads:

    Quote

    I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us. The creation waits in eager expectation for the sons of God to be revealed. For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God.
    We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time. Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. For in this hope we were saved. But hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what he already has? But if we hope for what we do not yet have, we wait for it patiently.

    And

    Galatians 6:15(NIV) reads:

    Quote

    Neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything; what counts is a new creation.

    And

    2 Corinthians 5:17-21 reads:

    Quote

    Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come! All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. We are therefore Christ's ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ's behalf: Be reconciled to God. God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

    On the issue of preexistence of Jesus scripture not only states he was formed in Mary’s womb but also  states that God planned for his coming since the beginning of the world.

    Ephesians 1:3-10(NIV) reads:

    Quote

    Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ.  For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will— to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves. In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God's grace that he lavished on us with all wisdom and understanding. And he made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, to be put into effect when the times will have reached their fulfillment—to bring all things in heaven and on earth together under one head, even Christ.

    And

    1 Peter 1:18-21(NIV) reads:

    Quote

    For you know that it was not with perishable things such as silver or gold that you were redeemed from the empty way of life handed down to you from your forefathers, but with the precious blood of Christ, a lamb without blemish or defect. He was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake. Through him you believe in God, who raised him from the dead and glorified him, and so your faith and hope are in God.

    So I am just pointed out that instead of Jesus being preexistent you are confused in your understanding and that 1) All  is created anew in Jesus the Anointed One and 2) God planned for it before the beginning of the World.

    As for Jesus being a human being just like other human beings.  I believe this scripture in Hebrews best makes that case. reads:[quote]

    Hebrews 4:15(NIV) reads:[quote]

    For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are—yet was without sin.

    peace2all wrote:[quote]

    then you better believe it. i am not adding my opinion or assumption to it .

    You assume that it is speaking of the old creation and not the new.  Scripture tells us that through Jesus we all become new creations.
    peace2all wrote:

    Quote

    really it clearly says he is from heaven and we are from the earth. He is sprit being we are man made from the earth created by god through Jesus, as the bible says also.

    You are not using a godly worldview.   Here is a scripture I hope will put things in context for you.

    Romans 12:1-2(NIV) reads:

    Quote

    Therefore, I urge you, brothers, in view of God's mercy, to offer your bodies as living sacrifices, holy and pleasing to God—this is your spiritual act of worship. Do not conform any lo
    nger to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God's will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.

    The godly conform to the pattern of heaven while the ungodly conform to the pattern of this world.  In other words the godly come from heaven and the ungodly from below.

    December 8, 2009 at 6:31 am#162895
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (Ed J @ Dec. 07 2009,09:19)

    Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 07 2009,11:00)
     In other words this passage certainly does not explicitly state Jesus ii preexistent and actually states he would be formed in Mary’s womb.  
    The question is do you believe scripture when it explicitly states Jesus was conceived in Mary’s womb or do you believe in the traditions of man.


    Hi Kerwin,

    What's your take on this verse?

    Jer.1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee;
    and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee,
    and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

    God bless
    Ed J
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org


    God is all knowing and all powerful and knows and the path of events before they happen.  Some assume that means we are puppets in his hands but it is probably more like a chess master who sees many moves in advance and plays accordingly.  The difference is that each piece is making its choices instead of an opponent.

    God saw a new for Jeremiah and thus chose the time an place for Jeremiah to be conceived to do the work God laid out for him.  God knew the kind of man Jeremiah would be before Jeremiah was thought of by his mother and planned accordingly.  

    Scripture tells us repeatedly the same about Jesus.  Judas was even prophesied in scripture long before his conception though the scripture.

    I hope that answers your question.

    December 8, 2009 at 10:21 pm#163032
    peace2all
    Participant

    kerwin you are not adding any scriptures just your opinion.

    the bible says jesus is the fristborn of creation. it says that god created all thru jesus. it says man was created from dust, and dust we will return. from the earth we were made and the earth we return.

    were do you get anything different, where do you get we are siprit beings and came from heaven.nowhere does it say that.

    you were saying you are a spirit being and not a descendeant of adam. adam was created from the earth. it doesn't say adam was created as jesus or the angels were!! and then brough down to earth!!

    god created us from the earth then gave us the breath of life a living soul. that is not the same as being created in heaven as a spirit being!

    all those who reside in heaven they are spirit beings.

    it says specifically what you deny i am not making it up. you are.

    you make no sense to your arguements at all.

    sorry you do not beleive the good news of the bible, god's inpired words.

    December 8, 2009 at 10:42 pm#163039
    terraricca
    Participant

    hi kerwin
    in the case of judas it was easy ,there probably was a greath choise available,righteous was more rare.
    Pr 8:22 “The LORD brought me forth as the first of his works,
    before his deeds of old;
    Pr 8:23 I was appointed from eternity,
    from the beginning, before the world began.
    Pr 8:24 When there were no oceans, I was given birth,
    when there were no springs abounding with water;
    Pr 8:25 before the mountains were settled in place,
    before the hills, I was given birth,
    Pr 8:26 before he made the earth or its fields
    or any of the dust of the world.
    Pr 8:27 I was there when he set the heavens in place,
    when he marked out the horizon on the face of the deep,
    Pr 8:28 when he established the clouds above
    and fixed securely the fountains of the deep,
    Pr 8:29 when he gave the sea its boundary
    so the waters would not overstep his command,
    and when he marked out the foundations of the earth.
    Pr 8:30 Then I was the craftsman at his side.
    I was filled with delight day after day

    December 9, 2009 at 2:01 am#163151
    peace2all
    Participant

    kerwin, so the bible doesn't say that man was made from dust and will return to dust from whence he came?

    the bible doesn't say that god's son wasn't the firstborn of creation?

    that god's son all was created and that he said he was beside god before all was made and that he was a master craftman after all ws created?

    the bible does say that, so then when man was created out of the earth from dust it was from god through his son.

    therefore god is not his son and the son is not god.

    therefore god's son was in heaven before earth was and thus a spirit being first.

    you can't deny nor say i make it up and that the bible does not say that. it does say that.

    however the things you claim are not located in the holy scripture.

    you also for some reason are cutting and pasting quotes fromn others and acting as if i wrote them. you cut mine that are from various conversations and not when they were used in consestion one after another so you are leaving out things and only argueing some. i guess you try to only argue those that you feel comfortable trying to twist with non scriptural backing and adding only your opinin.

    i quote scriptures that say what i repeat, that means its not my word or opinion but the bibles.

    your disproof is your words only, when adding comment to that scripture. you cannot fight the truth thats why you come up with no rebuttle to that scripture quoted with other scripture. the bible is not going to clearly tell you something then let you find a different view to the same answer. you will get a consitant answer on a topic not multiple routes.

    the bible is not going to tell you at different points in the bible the same thing to an answer then all of a sudden throw in there teh complete opposite. that would make god's word useless to believe.

    that will never happen

    December 9, 2009 at 9:37 am#163244
    kerwin
    Participant

    peace2all wrote:

    Quote

    were do you get anything different, where do you get we are spirit beings and came from heaven. Nowhere does it say that.

    I see that we are having difficulties communicating as I am speaking of a spiritual locations while you are speaking of physical locations.  Demons are spirit beings and yet are from the world because their actions of the world while angels are from heaven as their actions are from heaven.  The same is true of human beings though they are clothed in bodies of perishable flesh and blood.   You body is as nothing as it is your spirit which determines where you come from and if your spirit is from God then you are from above but if your spirit is from the devil then you are from the world.  I am not stating this makes one a spiritual being though I do hold that a person is their soul and their spirit is the “fundamental and activating principal determining one’s character”.

    Hebrews 12:9(KJV) reads:

    Quote

    Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

    And

    Romans 8:13-17(KJV) reads:

    Quote

    For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.


    peace2all wrote:

    Quote

    the bible says jesus is the fristborn of creation. it says that god created all thru jesus. it says man was created from dust, and dust we will return. from the earth we were made and the earth we return.

    Jesus is the firstborn of all creation but that does not mean he was born previous to all others.  It means he is the most important one.  Scripture tells us that God will recreate everything through Jesus and is currently working toward that goal now.   The new creation is superior to the old which is currently passing away.  Look at Colossians where it states”

    Colossians 1:18(NIV) reads:

    Quote

    And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy.

    Notice it states he is the firstborn from among the dead.  It then states the reason why and that reason is “so in everything he might have supremacy”.   It does not indicate he already had supremacy and in fact what Jesus tells the Eleven is that God made him King over everything in heaven and on earth.  We know from this that at one time he was not King over everything in heaven and on earth.

    One thing that you do not seem to have address is that I believe that Jesus is a human being and in order to be a human being he must have the soul of a human being.  By soul I mean the essential element or in other words the indispensable part of an individual.

    December 9, 2009 at 9:57 am#163253
    kerwin
    Participant

    Terraricca wrote:

    Quote

    in the case of Judas it was easy ,there probably was  a great choice available, righteousness was more rare.

    Though your point that a great choice is available for a sinner and righteousness is rare is correct I believe you are unaware of the scripture I speak of.

    Zechariah 11:10-13(NIV) reads:

    Quote

    Then I took my staff called Favor and broke it, revoking the covenant I had made with all the nations. 11 It was revoked on that day, and so the afflicted of the flock who were watching me knew it was the word of the LORD.  I told them, “If you think it best, give me my pay; but if not, keep it.” So they paid me thirty pieces of silver. And the LORD said to me, “Throw it to the potter”-the handsome price at which they priced me! So I took the thirty pieces of silver and threw them into the house of the LORD to the potter.


    That is what scripture tells us happened as well.

    God has plans for you and me but it is each of us that will determine whether those plans are for good or ill.   We determine it by our choices.  Judas chose to embrace a path that led to illness for him though salvation for others.  

    I am not sure why you chose to quote Psalms 8 which is about the call of Wisdom who the writer gives addresses as a female.  Wisdom is not a goddess as some would like to claim but rather she is a characteristic that the writer is urging the reader to acquire.  It is wise to seek the Lord with all your soul, heart, and mind.

    December 9, 2009 at 12:39 pm#163285
    peace2all
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 09 2009,20:37)
    peace2all wrote:

    Quote

    were do you get anything different, where do you get we are spirit beings and came from heaven. Nowhere does it say that.

    I see that we are having difficulties communicating as I am speaking of a spiritual locations while you are speaking of physical locations.  Demons are spirit beings and yet are from the world because their actions of the world while angels are from heaven as their actions are from heaven.  The same is true of human beings though they are clothed in bodies of perishable flesh and blood.   You body is as nothing as it is your spirit which determines where you come from and if your spirit is from God then you are from above but if your spirit is from the devil then you are from the world.  I am not stating this makes one a spiritual being though I do hold that a person is their soul and their spirit is the “fundamental and activating principal determining one’s character”.

    Hebrews 12:9(KJV) reads:

    Quote

    Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

    And

    Romans 8:13-17(KJV) reads:

    Quote

    For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.


    peace2all wrote:

    Quote

    the bible says jesus is the fristborn of creation. it says that god created all thru jesus. it says man was created from dust, and dust we will return. from the earth we were made and the earth we return.

    Jesus is the firstborn of all creation but that does not mean he was born previous to all others.  It means he is the most important one.  Scripture tells us that God will recreate everything through Jesus and is currently working toward that goal now.   The new creation is superior to the old which is currently passing away.  Look at Colossians where it states”

    Colossians 1:18(NIV) reads:

    Quote

    And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy.

    Notice it states he is the firstborn from among the dead.  It then states the reason why and that reason is “so in everything he might have supremacy”.   It does not indicate he already had supremacy and in fact what Jesus tells the Eleven is that God made him King over everything in heaven and on earth.  We know from this that at one time he was not King over everything in heaven and on earth.

    One thing that you do not seem to have address is that I believe that Jesus is a human being and in order to be a human being he must have the soul of a human being.  By soul I mean the essential element or in other words the indispensable part of an individual.


    well if he is the firstborn from the dead he was first that came out(from) the dead,

    if he is the first of creation and the was used t ocreate all then he would have to have been first to hav ebeen there to be used.

    i use the words you are going out of your way to try to interpet.

    there is no reason to try to interpet unless you wan to believve something else and not waht god is saying.

    December 9, 2009 at 1:03 pm#163286
    peace2all
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 07 2009,11:00)
    peace2all wrote:

    Quote

    why do you want to argue, just accept truth if it is shown.

    I asked a question and you chose not to answer it.  The question being “is the body of a human being with a demon soul a human or a demon?”  Are you afraid of the answer?

    peace2all wrote:

    Quote

    john 6:38 -for i have come down from heaven , not to do my will but the will of him who sent me. this is the will of the father

    John 6:38 does not explicitly state that Jesus is preexistent.  You are assuming that is true.   Do you doubt that God sent Jesus  as he sent the prophets before hand?  Do you doubt that they were ordained by heaven?  Where else do you think the people of God come from if not from heaven?  If you are truly a servant of God then you to come from above as you actions will testify.

    peace2all wrote:

    Quote

    john 8:23 – you are from beneath, i am from above, you are from this world, i am not of this world

    This one does not explicitly state Jesus was preexistent but it does state those who do the works of their father the devil are from below which is why they would die in their sins.  He was obviously not speaking about believers.

    peace2all wrote:

    Quote

    jhn 17:5 – glorify me together with yourself with the glory i had with you before the world was.

    This also does not explicitly state Jesus is preexistent.   I would state you have trouble comprehending the sentence since it in other words states “apply the glory today you have waiting for me before the world existed“.   He obviously is not stating that he was glorified before the world began or he would not ask to be glorified at that time.

    peace2all wrote:

    Quote

    colossians 1:15-17 – he is the image of the invisible god the firstborn over all creation. for by  him all things that were created in heaven and on earth ,all things were created through him and for him.

    This scripture does not explicitly state Jesus is preexistent.  It is true that through Jesus we are all a new creation for the first has passed away.   If we were all in created through Jesus in the first place then no hope for salvation remains as we have all gone astray.   It is through the new covenant that one is created in Jesus or do you believe scripture is wrong on that point.  I ask because that is the point you are making.

    peace2all wrote:

    Quote

    proverbs 8:22 – god possed me at the beginning of his way before his works of old. i have been established from everlasting, from the beginning before there was ever a earth

    proverbs 8:27-31 – when he prepared the heavens i was there, then it goes on to say the things on the earth, verse 30 reads — then i was beside him as a master craftsman

    These two are about Wisdom and not about Jesus.  John 1:1 is speaking of God’s Word which is wisdom and so they do apply to John 1:1 though they obviously do not explicitly state Jesus is preexistent since they are not about him.

    peace2all wrote:

    Quote

    luke 1:30-40

    I am not sure what version of scripture you chose to use so I am not addressing it specifically.  I can address the passage by pointing out that in verse 33 the King James Version states the angel spoke in the future tense by stating “He shall be great.”  the New International Version uses similar words.    In verse 31 the angel tells Mary Jesus will be formed in her womb which is obviously not beforehand.  In other words this passage certainly does not explicitly state Jesus ii preexistent and actually states he would be formed in Mary’s womb.  The question is do you believe scripture when it explicitly states Jesus was conceived in Mary’s womb or do you believe in the traditions of man.

    peace2all wrote:

    Quote

    i'm sure there are others, im kinda new to this all.

    I consider that a plus since there is a lot of deception that Satan has put into modern Christian doctrines and I believe those who have been immersed in any of them for a briefer time may have a better chance of seeing though it as they become more informed.

    I assure you that scripture is true when it states Jesus is a human being just like you and me though he unlike us and always been and remains totally faithful to God.   It is through faith in him and so obeying all his teachings that we too can claim that prize for he leads us true.   Trust in Jesus.  Trust in God.


    when you have a message that is constant through out het scruptures regarding his heavenly place then it rings true.

    he spoke of being firstborn of creation other scriptures state that he came from above, that he did reside in heaven before all and had made with god all things and he was like a master craftsman.

    it all is constant and rings true, you can't mistake that. that glory he had before all.

    do you not have such love and have glory for your child. because one does not as a new creation or child having done works does tht mean that they are not loved so much. the love in your heart and eyes show forth.

    definition of glory fits in well for that.

    praise, honor,resplendent beauty or magnificence,rejoice proudly .

    you saying that god could not have rejoiced over his son, over his first creation. that he could not honor and praise or be proud of it.

    thats what you are saying.

    yu think only of glory to it being associated with works and thats not true.

    did god send his prophets by means of sending down as he did jesus. no. they were instructed by angels or vision(dreams)) from god. they were instructed by voices from angels conveying the message of god.

    you are the one assuming on all of your defense.

    if he was just like you and i nothing more , than any other man before him or animal would have took away the sin dominion over us and givene us forgiveness in god's eyes then and his blood would not have cleansed us and sanctified us.

    however jesus was the only one who could thats why that message is reverberated in scripture!

    if not then there was no point in him comming was there. do h
    ave it mean so much.

    don't demean his impotrance to us all.

    again all the scriptures are in one constant idea , focus, thouhgt, meaning. that he was in heaven as a spirit bieng with his fater helping create all before commimg to earth.

    scritpures tell teh story not me, i only sow you where it is.

    December 10, 2009 at 5:19 am#163483
    kerwin
    Participant

    peace2all,

    Like the Saducees before you it is obvious that you fail to understand scripture.  When scripture declares Jesus was conceived in Mary's womb it means he was formed in her womb and not before and yet you refuse to believe. The question is “why?”.  Is it because you place the teachings of man before God or is it because you fear finding out that Jesus is a man just like you who was fully tempted as you have been and yet he dd not sin.  I admit it is a challenge but if we obey all of Jesus teachings then he will sent the Spirit and we to can stop sinning by walking according to the ways of the Spirit.  We have his word on that and he is faithful.

    Jesus is the author of the new covenant the firstborn of from the dead and of a new creation.  It is up to us to make the choice whether to follow him and truly make him King of our lives by obeying him in all things.

    December 10, 2009 at 7:13 pm#163611
    logoslogic
    Participant

    Considering the large number of diverse posts on the subject of John 1:1, allow me to comment without addressing anyone’s post specifically.

    The interpretation of John 1:1 depends on your fundamental theology whether Jesus existed before He was born as Jesus 2000 years ago or not. If your paradigm is preexistence then you will read John 1:1 as: In the beginning was the WORD (meaning Jesus), and the WORD (meaning Jesus) was with God, and the WORD (meaning Jesus) was God. This falls in line with traditional Roman Catholic Trinitarian (mystery) teaching.

    But that is not what the Bible says. It says: “In the beginning was the WORD.” First of all let’s define “beginning.” I believe it to mean from all eternity and throughout Old Testament time. Secondly, we need to ask: Who’s WORD was in the beginning? My answer: It was the WORD of God. So now, John 1:1 reads: “In the beginning was the WORD (of God), and the WORD (of God) was with God, and the WORD (of God) was God.”  For a better understanding we can personify John 1:1 to read: In the beginning is my word, and my word is with me, and my word is me. In other words, in the beginning was ONE God, Yahweh Elohim and (it) His WORD. It was through (it) His WORD that God created the heavens and the earth – God spoke and it was!  John 1:1 tells us who and what was in the beginning and throughout Old Testament time.

    Now we come to John 1:2 which says: “He was in the beginning with God.” Notice the change from “it” – the WORD, to “He” – Jesus, after the WORD became FLESH in John 1:14, telling us what was then, in New Testament time.

    Gen.1:1 says exactly the same as John 1:1 that in the beginning was ONE God – God Almighty. This ONE God then decided to raise up for Himself a family, and so He chose the slave nation Israel and entered into a marriage covenant with Israel at Mt Sinai. In the “fullness of time” God chose the Jewess Mary, representing all of Israel – His wife, as the (surrogate) Mother of their only (so) begotten and firstborn Son, whom they named Jesus.

    God is not Trinitarian, not Twinitarian and not Unitarian. God is monotheistic from beginning to end. There was but ONE God Being from the beginning and throughout Old Testament time, and there is but ONE God Family throughout New Testament time and into the Kingdome age.

    December 10, 2009 at 7:28 pm#163617
    NickHassan
    Participant

    HiLL,
    So mary was not his mother?
    He was not conceived?

    December 10, 2009 at 11:38 pm#163649
    peace2all
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 10 2009,16:19)
    peace2all,

    Like the Saducees before you it is obvious that you fail to understand scripture.  When scripture declares Jesus was conceived in Mary's womb it means he was formed in her womb and not before and yet you refuse to believe. The question is “why?”.  Is it because you place the teachings of man before God or is it because you fear finding out that Jesus is a man just like you who was fully tempted as you have been and yet he dd not sin.  I admit it is a challenge but if we obey all of Jesus teachings then he will sent the Spirit and we to can stop sinning by walking according to the ways of the Spirit.  We have his word on that and he is faithful.

    Jesus is the author of the new covenant the firstborn of from the dead and of a new creation.  It is up to us to make the choice whether to follow him and truly make him King of our lives by obeying him in all things.


    kerwin ,

    i've noticed people cut and past words from different scriptures to make a point or you use scripture, but use there own interpretation instead of reading multiple verses discussing topic that are all related in topic and constant in message

    i've also noticed people use scriptures tht don't even relate to the topic and try to use them. that cracks me up.

    or one slowely drifts off topic with questions that slowly fade to other stuff. EX: like talking about jesus ransom and what it means and did for us, and one will then go ” oh he preached love” LOL like that had anything to do hte topic

    i put forth a bunch of scriptures you've read i think,. but who knows.

    they all validate the outcome that he was with god when they created all together.

    he was god's son before he became our jesus christ.

    if the message is constant and agree to each other, than it is .

    the bible will not contradict itself. you add opinions, ive used scriptures.

    how can he go from wence he came as he stated if he never was there to begin with as you claim. he is from above as he said. if he never was there to begin with then he can not say he was.

    the scriptures say he was there before the heavens and earth was made, that he thru god created all and he was like a master craftman. that he was beside god.

    he was going back from wence he came. that he is from above.

    you add nothing but talk. go back and look at the scriptures shown.

    you do not need to imagine a new outcome from what is clear.

    the bible is very clear and easy to understand when you want an answer.

    there will be many scriptures backing itself up to be constant and forward to not leave the mistake you are making.

    December 11, 2009 at 12:48 am#163667
    terraricca
    Participant

    hi p2
    i think what kerwin try to tell you is that the scriptures said that christ was born out of the vergin with the Holy spirit ,
    and you talk abode that Christ came from above ,you both right it is just time and fullfillment of Gods will.

    December 11, 2009 at 12:54 am#163669
    terraricca
    Participant

    hi logo
    your explanation maybe looked like this ,forget John 1-1,for now; can you prove with the scriptures that christ is god ,that he is the god father,can you honestly from the gospels account tel that jesus is god the father????
    and can you also prove that God the fether has no Son??????

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