John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 3,161 through 3,180 (of 26,009 total)
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  • #147928
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Quote (thethinker @ Sep. 30 2009,03:46)
    Worshippingjesus said to t8:

    Quote
    Again you claim that men are gods (theos) but Paul says no such thing…


    The title “gods” in reference to men simply meant “magistrates” or “rulers.” The idea of deities was never present.

    thinker


    Exactly thinker.

    Please tell WJ what you just said, that all instances of theos or elohim are not always in reference to the Most High God. And that sometimes they are in reference to being rulers or magistrates. WJ says that they are only in reference to false gods or the true God and this reasoning leads him to believe that Jesus is God as he couldn't be a false god. He is wrong about that and you obviously agree.

    Now look what God gave Christ.

    Acts 2:36
    “Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ.”

    So if men and angels can be referred to as theos/elohim without being God, then ask yourself why you say that Jesus is God when you know full well that Jesus has been made lord and christ and therefore the ultimate ruler.

    This same Jesus said the following and who are we to disagree with the one called truth?

    John 17:3 (English-NIV)
    Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

    Saying that Jesus is part of a Trinity God because the word theos may have been used in reference to him is to be biased, when we know that theos is used in an affirmative way for others who are not the Most High God.

    Context is important. e.g., Most High God, or God of gods, the God and Father of the Lord Jesus Christ, one God the Father, etc, shows us that the Father is the one true God and other uses are either beings under the authority of God or false gods.

    It is kind of the same with the Devil. We know there is a Devil who is Satan. But there are devils, which are those who have his nature or character, but who are not the Devil himself.

    We also see the same thing with Man. There was one son of Man (Adam) and his offspring are called man which is the same word “adam”. So there was one Adam and those who partake in his nature are adam.

    If people could understand that this is quite normal in scripture, then perhaps they might stop forcing their own understanding and culture onto scripture and in doing so they might draw better and truer conclusions.

    #147941

    The statement by St. Athanasius of Alexandria, “The Son of God became man, that we might become god”, [the second g is always lowercase since man can never become a God] indicates the concept beautifully. II Peter 1:4 says that we have become ” . . . partakers of divine nature.” Athanasius amplifies the meaning of this verse when he says theosis is “becoming by grace what God is by nature” (De Incarnatione, I). What would otherwise seem absurd, that fallen, sinful man may become holy as God is holy, has been made possible through Jesus Christ, who is God incarnate. Naturally, the crucial Christian assertion, that God is One, sets an absolute limit on the meaning of theosis – it is not possible for any created being to become, ontologically, God or even another god.

    Please see the full article here: http://orthodoxwiki.org/Theosis

    #147943
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi CA,
    So God was in Christ.[2cor5]
    Was he also God?

    #147947
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi CA,
    The Spirit of God can give us the gifts and fruit of the Spirit just as that Spirit did for Jesus, thus making us alike to God and His Son.
    We partake of the divine nature but we never become God

    #147951

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 29 2009,18:04)
    Hi CA,
    Is this the man suspected of murder?
    Fruit is the guide.


    I guess it takes one to know one…a fruit that is. :p :laugh:

    #147952
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi CA,
    Interesting fruit.

    #147962

    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 29 2009,13:37)
    t8

    Quote (t8 @ Sep. 28 2009,20:29)
    Prove to me that Jesus was saying that they were false Gods, when he said “Is it not written in your Law, 'I have said you are gods' ?”


    That’s easy…

    Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: “BEFORE ME THERE WAS NO GOD FORMED, NEITHER SHALL THERE BE AFTER ME.  Isa 43:10

    “Now concerning everything which I have said to you, be on your guard; and “DO NOT MENTION THE NAME OF OTHER GODS, NOR LET THEM BE HEARD FROM YOUR MOUTH. Exod 23:13

    You do believe that Jesus knew these scriptures don't you?

    So maybe your understanding of Jesus quoting the Psalmist in referring to wicked men and judges is wrong and in fact the Psalmist writes…

    But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes. Ps 82:7

    Were they god’s t8? Is this what Jesus is implying?

    Jesus gave Paul direct revelation of the Gospel and Paul said…

    So then, about eating food sacrificed to idols: We know that an idol is nothing at all in the world and that “THERE IS NO GOD BUT ONE“. For even if there “ARE SO CALLED GODS”, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”), 1 Cor 8:4, 5

    So now please show me in the NT a scripture anywhere where the word “Theos” is applied to an Apostle or follower of Christ.

    So you rest your faith on an ambiguous scripture which Jesus quotes to show their own Hypocrisy to promote Henotheism or Polytheism. Jesus knew the Hebrew scriptures and that there is no God but One, neither were there any formed. And all so-called gods by men are not gods at all.

    Again you claim that men are gods (theos) but Paul says no such thing…

    So then, about eating food sacrificed to idols: We know that an idol is nothing at all in the world and that “THERE IS NO GOD BUT ONE“. For even if there “ARE SO CALLED GODS”, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”), 1 Cor 8:4, 5

    You do believe Paul’s words don't you t8 when he says…

    THERE IS NO GOD BUT ONE“. For even if there “ARE SO CALLED GODS

    Quote (t8 @ Sep. 28 2009,20:29)
    Also prove to me that Satan is the false God of this world?


    Nice how you called satan the “God” of this world with a capitol “G”.

    You have shown your own arrogance against scriptures by doing so. For you have just changed the Translations of over 600 scholars who know far more about you and the use of the word “Theos”.

    Is satan the “True God” of this world? Or is he a liar and a Usurper over men?

    Is this all you have? Two lonely scriptures that call wicked men and the wicked being satan god.

    Now compare that with this…

    In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. Jn 1:1

    But unto the Son [he saith], Thy throne, O God, [is] for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness [is] the sceptre of thy kingdom. Heb 1:8

    Or this…

    while we wait for the blessed hope–the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, Titus 2:13

    Quote (t8 @ Sep. 28 2009,20:29)
    You are forced to see magistrates and judges as false gods.
    I am not forced to see it that way.

    Of course you are not forced, because you are a Henotheist who believes in more than “One Theos” God!

    Quote (t8 @ Sep. 28 2009,20:29)
    Again, your bias forms your belief.


    Looking in the mirror again!

    WJ


    t8

    Quote (t8 @ Sep. 29 2009,02:06)
    Try again WJ.

    You commentaries are always biased because you isolate certain scriptures and ignore difficult ones.

    If you included other scriptures in your writing, then you might have more credibility.


    This is laughable. I didn’t include the scripture because I answered your questions concerning that scripture with scripture. But, notice everyone that t8 didn’t answer any of my points. Could it be that you avoid the difficult scriptures?

    Who is it that shows bias by not including scriptures? Why don’t you include these…?

    Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: “BEFORE ME THERE WAS NO GOD FORMED, NEITHER SHALL THERE BE AFTER ME.  Isa 43:10

    “Now concerning everything which I have said to you, be on your guard; and “DO NOT MENTION THE NAME OF OTHER GODS, NOR LET THEM BE HEARD FROM YOUR MOUTH. Exod 23:13

    Also t8 fails to mention that his theology allows for “a god” Jesus to be included in the creation of all things when the scriptures clearly claim that only “One God” created all things…

    Isa 44:24
    Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; *that stretcheth forth the heavens alone*; that spreadeth abroad the earth *by myself*;

    Isa 45:18
    For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: *I am the LORD; and there is none else*.

    Isa 46:9
    Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and *there is none else*; I am God, and *there is none like me*,

    Will you give us a fair commentary on this t8?

    WJ

    #147963

    Quote (t8 @ Sep. 29 2009,02:06)
    You neglect to mention this for example:

    Psalm 82:6
    “I said, 'You are “gods”; you are all sons of the Most High.'


    No, you had already mentioned it with a question which I responded to with an answer, which is something that you do not do but only divert attention by making false claims!

    Quote (t8 @ Sep. 29 2009,02:06)
    Where is the reference to “false” gods? It actually says sons of the Most High in the same sentence.


    Does it have to say “false gods” to know that according to YHWH and Paul that they are not gods at all. Sure it says they were “sons of the most high God”, but we know that they were fallen, don’t we? They were wicked kings and judges, weren’t they? They were going to die like men weren’t they?

    You don’t get it do you? Jesus said…

    Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God? John 10:34-36

    Notice t8 the words , “Is it not written in your law, I (the Psalmist) said, Ye are gods?” and  “If he (the Psalmist) called them gods”.

    First Jesus is “QUOTING” the Psalmist for he says “is it not written in your law” and then he says “If “HE” called them gods”. This is not YHWH making the statement; it is the Psalmist that is calling them “gods”. Or YHWH would be contradicting himself, wouldn't he? (Isa 43:10, Exod 22:13). If you are honest when you read the context you will see that it is the Psalmist speaking and not YHWH, at best it is ambiguous!

    This is what it means for a scripture to be inspired and true but the statement itself false.

    For example the following scripture is true and inspired…

    But when the Pharisees heard [it], they said, This [fellow] doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils. Matt 12:24

    But even though this scripture is true and inspired, we know that the Pharisees were wrong and their statement is not true! You do understand that don't you t8?

    And if you don't think that men can call a man god and yet be wrong then what do you say of these scriptures…?

    And upon a set day Herod, arrayed in royal apparel, sat upon his throne, and made an oration unto them. And the people gave a shout, saying, “It is the voice of a god, and not of a man“. And immediately the angel of the Lord smote him, because he gave not God the glory: and he was eaten of worms, and gave up the ghost. Acts 12:21-23

    Yet we see Jesus being called “Lord and God” by Thomas without any correction by Jesus or John but in fact Jesus blesses him because he had seen who he was! Why wasn't Jesus eaten up with worms? Why did the same John who witnessed this write John 1:1 using the word “theos” when he could have used another word that would describe Jesus as divine?

    Since the scriptures claim that there is “no god but one”! Then we can be sure that it is not YHWH claiming these wicked men to be gods in Psalms 82, and John 10:34! So your understanding of the passage is contradictory to YHWHs own words…

    Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: “BEFORE ME THERE WAS NO GOD FORMED, NEITHER SHALL THERE BE AFTER ME.  Isa 43:10

    Jesus was rebuking them for their own interpretation of what was “written in their law” and their hypocrisy for accusing him because he claimed to be the Son of God, while they claimed to be gods!

    Tell us again t8 how men are gods, or are becoming gods, for it sure is not found in the mouth of YHWH nor his children?

    WJ

    #147964

    Quote (t8 @ Sep. 29 2009,02:06)
    When you can give a fair commentary and include all scripture, not just the ones you can twist, then someone actually might take you seriously.


    I just did! Now maybe you can explain to us why you think YHWH wants us to believe the wicked  kings and judges should be called “gods” especially when he says “BEFORE ME THERE WAS NO GOD FORMED, NEITHER SHALL THERE BE AFTER ME.

    And when Paul says…

    THERE IS NO GOD BUT ONE“.!

    Then explain to us how it is you cannot find “One” single scripture where the word “Theos” is ascribed to a “Divine being” other than Jesus by the Apostles.

    Quote (t8 @ Sep. 29 2009,02:06)
    Obviously the words 'theos' and 'elohim' are used in a greater context than you can appreciate and used in a way that doesn't infringe on the truth that the true God is the Most High God. This is the reality we find in scripture and a reality that you continually put your head in the sand in order to ignore.


    Obviously? :D

    Really, where is the NT example of Henotheism in the NT?

    Where is the “One” example where an Apostle or follower of Christ ascribes the word “Theos” to a Divine being other than Jesus?

    It’s not in all 27 books of the NT is it t8? Yet you say that the word “Theos” is used in a greater context? :D   Get real!

    Quote (t8 @ Sep. 29 2009,02:06)
    I think you should give up teaching because teachers incur a stricter judgement and we are responsible for that which we teach. If you can't give up teaching the false doctrine of the trinity for the sake of others, what about doing it for yourself?


    I realize that you as well as many here on this sight would like to censor me or silence me.

    You have that power t8. You can ban me anytime that you like for teaching what “You call” false doctrine. But, then again to be fair you would have to ban a whole lot of people here, and what would you have then? A sight that allows only those who believe in more than one god or gods!

    WJ

    #147967
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi WJ,
    So God is not allowed to call others gods?
    When did you get the right to advise God?

    #147969

    Quote (CatholicApologist @ Sep. 29 2009,19:34)
    The statement by St. Athanasius of Alexandria, “The Son of God became man, that we might become god”, [the second g is always lowercase since man can never become a God] indicates the concept beautifully. II Peter 1:4 says that we have become ” . . . partakers of divine nature.” Athanasius amplifies the meaning of this verse when he says theosis is “becoming by grace what God is by nature” (De Incarnatione, I). What would otherwise seem absurd, that fallen, sinful man may become holy as God is holy, has been made possible through Jesus Christ, who is God incarnate. Naturally, the crucial Christian assertion, that God is One, sets an absolute limit on the meaning of theosis – it is not possible for any created being to become, ontologically, God or even another god.

    Please see the full article here:  http://orthodoxwiki.org/Theosis


    CA

    True! The Hebrew faith did not allow them to even speak of other gods by name!

    Henotheism is a false belief system simply to deny the Deity of Jesus!

    WJ

    #147972
    KangarooJack
    Participant

    t8 said:

    Quote
    Please tell WJ what you just said, that all instances of theos or elohim are not always in reference to the Most High God. And that sometimes they are in reference to being rulers or magistrates. WJ says that they are only in reference to false gods or the true God and this reasoning leads him to believe that Jesus is God as he couldn't be a false god. He is wrong about that and you obviously agree.

    t8,
    You have been saying that there are lesser “deities” (or gods) in addition to God. I was refuting YOU. WJ is correct that there are no other deities of any kind lesser or greater. Jesus is God because “in Him dwells all the fulness of the THEOTOKOS bodily” (Colossians 2:9)

    You have said also that because men partake of the divine nature this makes them deities and that they will become gods. But the divine nature has to do with God's communicable attributes such as love, mercy, kindness, patience, longsuffering, etc., etc. Had you taken just one Systematic Theology course you would know this.

    Men may partake of the divine nature but they cannot partake of the divine form. Paul explicitly said that Jesus existed in the form of God. Therefore, He was God. Jesus told the Jews that they had not seen God's form (John 5:37). But they had seen the divine nature. So your idea that men become deities or gods because they partake of the divine nature is fallacious.

    WJ and all can see that you have twisted what I said.

    thinker

    #147975
    942767
    Participant

    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 30 2009,13:35)

    Quote (CatholicApologist @ Sep. 29 2009,19:34)
    The statement by St. Athanasius of Alexandria, “The Son of God became man, that we might become god”, [the second g is always lowercase since man can never become a God] indicates the concept beautifully. II Peter 1:4 says that we have become ” . . . partakers of divine nature.” Athanasius amplifies the meaning of this verse when he says theosis is “becoming by grace what God is by nature” (De Incarnatione, I). What would otherwise seem absurd, that fallen, sinful man may become holy as God is holy, has been made possible through Jesus Christ, who is God incarnate. Naturally, the crucial Christian assertion, that God is One, sets an absolute limit on the meaning of theosis – it is not possible for any created being to become, ontologically, God or even another god.

    Please see the full article here:  http://orthodoxwiki.org/Theosis


    CA

    True! The Hebrew faith did not allow them to even speak of other gods by name!

    Henotheism is a false belief system simply to deny the Deity of Jesus!

    WJ


    Hi CA & WJ:

    The statement by St. Athanasius states that a man can never become God, and by this statement he himself acknowledges that Jesus is a man.

    Although I know that he is qualifying this with whether or not a lower case or upper case “G” is used.

    God made man in His own image and Jesus is a man who is the last Adam and is the express image of God's person.

    This statement says that Jesus is God incarnate, and he indeed is God's own flesh and blood, but not God incarnate, he is the Son of the living God who through obedience to the Word of God has become the express image of God's person.  We have seen the character of God our Father through the life of our Lord Jesus.  It is because of the works that he did in the body in obedience to the Word of God that God our Father calls him God.

    Love in Christ,
    Marty

    #147979
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    WJ…………the LORD said as you quoted.” BEFORE ME THERE WAS NO GOD FORMED, NEITHER SHALL THERE BE AFTER ME” If you understood that the word GOD means (POWERS) from the word Elohim. A uniplural word. You would realize That what He was saying was that there were (NO) POWERS Before HIM and there will BE NONE After HIM either , NOW with that understanding we can see that (ALL) POWER drives it source form that (ONE) POWER WE call GOD. The LORD GOD , gives those POWERS to HIS creation at different Levels some have more and some less (BUT) they (ALL) still derive there source from that ONE POWER. SO in order to separate GOD the FATHER from the Rest,  Jesus said (FOR THOU ART THE ONLY (TRUE) GOD or POWER same thing. NOTICE the WORD (TRUE) why because He is the source of it (ALL).  EVERYTHING DERIVES it's POWER from that ONE SOURCE> and that includes JESUS ALSO. JUST ONE GOD (POWER) working IN ALL AND THROUGH ALL. THE LORD IS THE SOURCE OF ALL POWER IN EARTH AND HEAVEN. NO OTHER SOURCE IS THERE BUT HIM ALONE. IMO

    gene

    #147980
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Quote (t8 @ Sep. 30 2009,07:39)
    T8…quote
    Please tell WJ what you just said, that all instances of theos or elohim are not always in reference to the Most High God. And that sometimes they are in reference to being rulers or magistrates. WJ says that they are only in reference to false gods or the true God and this reasoning leads him to believe that Jesus is God as he couldn't be a false god. He is wrong about that and you obviously agree.

    Now look what God gave Christ.

    Acts 2:36
    “Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ.”

    So if men and angels can be referred to as theos/elohim without being God, then ask yourself why you say that Jesus is God when you know full well that Jesus has been made lord and christ and therefore the ultimate ruler.

    This same Jesus said the following and who are we to disagree with the one called truth?

    John 17:3 (English-NIV)
    Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

    Saying that Jesus is part of a Trinity God because the word theos may have been used in reference to him is to be biased, when we know that theos is used in an affirmative way for others who are not the Most High God.

    Context is important. e.g., Most High God, or God of gods, the God and Father of the Lord Jesus Christ, one God the Father, etc, shows us that the Father is the one true God and other uses are either beings under the authority of God or false gods.

    It is kind of the same with the Devil. We know there is a Devil who is Satan. But there are devils, which are those who have his nature or character, but who are not the Devil himself.

    We also see the same thing with Man. There was one son of Man (Adam) and his offspring are called man which is the same word “adam”. So there was one Adam and those who partake in his nature are adam.

    If people could understand that this is quite normal in scripture, then perhaps they might stop forcing their own understanding and culture onto scripture and in doing so they might draw better and truer conclusions.


    T8………good post i see it that way to.

    gene

    #147994

    Quote (thethinker @ Sep. 29 2009,22:00)
    t8 said:

    Quote
    Please tell WJ what you just said, that all instances of theos or elohim are not always in reference to the Most High God. And that sometimes they are in reference to being rulers or magistrates. WJ says that they are only in reference to false gods or the true God and this reasoning leads him to believe that Jesus is God as he couldn't be a false god. He is wrong about that and you obviously agree.

    t8,
    You have been saying that there are lesser “deities” (or gods) in addition to God. I was refuting YOU. WJ is correct that there are no other deities of any kind lesser or greater. Jesus is God because “in Him dwells all the fulness of the THEOTOKOS bodily” (Colossians 2:9)

    You have said also that because men partake of the divine nature this makes them deities and that they will become gods. But the divine nature has to do with God's communicable attributes such as love, mercy, kindness, patience, longsuffering, etc., etc. Had you taken just one Systematic Theology course you would know this.

    Men may partake of the divine nature but they cannot partake of the divine form. Paul explicitly said that Jesus existed in the form of God. Therefore, He was God. Jesus told the Jews that they had not seen God's form (John 5:37). But they had seen the divine nature. So your idea that men become deities or gods because they partake of the divine nature is fallacious.

    WJ and all can see that you have twisted what I said.

    thinker


    Hi Jack

    Amen! Ask any Monotheistic Hebrew if they believe in other “gods”?

    WJ

    #147995

    Quote (Gene @ Sep. 29 2009,22:59)
    WJ…………the LORD said as you quoted.” BEFORE ME THERE WAS NO GOD FORMED, NEITHER SHALL THERE BE AFTER ME” If you understood that the word GOD means (POWERS) from the word Elohim. A uniplural word. You would realize That what He was saying was that there were (NO) POWERS Before HIM and there will BE NONE After HIM either , NOW with that understanding we can see that (ALL) POWER drives it source form that (ONE) POWER WE call GOD. The LORD GOD , gives those POWERS to HIS creation at different Levels some have more and some less (BUT) they (ALL) still derive there source from that ONE POWER. SO in order to separate GOD the FATHER from the Rest,  Jesus said (FOR THOU ART THE ONLY (TRUE) GOD or POWER same thing. NOTICE the WORD (TRUE) why because He is the source of it (ALL).  EVERYTHING DERIVES it's POWER from that ONE SOURCE> and that includes JESUS ALSO. JUST ONE GOD (POWER) working IN ALL AND THROUGH ALL. THE LORD IS THE SOURCE OF ALL POWER IN EARTH AND HEAVEN. NO OTHER SOURCE IS THERE BUT HIM ALONE. IMO

    gene


    Gene

    You keep regurgitating this same argument with out any proof!

    Can you show us in any Hebrew concordance or lexicon where the word “God” means powers?

    WJ

    #147999
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 30 2009,17:04)
    Hi Jack

    Amen! Ask any Monotheistic Hebrew if they believe in other “gods”?

    WJ


    Ask any Monotheistic Hebrew if they believe in a Triune God or the Trinity.

    Then ask any Monotheistic Hebrew if Psalm 82:6 is part of scripture.
    “I said, 'You are “gods”; you are all sons of the Most High.'

    Then ask them if the above text is talking about false gods.

    Caught in your own craftiness WJ.

    #148009
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 30 2009,13:10)
    Does it have to say “false gods” to know that according to YHWH and Paul that they are not gods at all. Sure it says they were “sons of the most high God”, but we know that they were fallen, don’t we? They were wicked kings and judges, weren’t they? They were going to die like men weren’t they?


    Yes is has to say false gods if it means false gods. Otherwise you are adding to the verse.

    It says “theos” and also says “sons of the Most High”.
    Just because it is difficult for your theology, doesn't mean that you should add to the text.

    Jesus wasn't calling them false gods. Get use to it.

    We all know that they were fallen just like all humans. But that is not what is being addressed here.

    In another scripture it says that we are made in God's image or likeness: James 3:9
    With the tongue we praise our Lord and Father, and with it we curse men, who have been made in God's likeness.

    Yet are we to say that we are made in God's false image if we are considered sinful. No, it is affirming that we are made in his image despite our sinful status and that we shouldn't slander men because of that fact. Being fallen doesn't change the fact that we are made in God's image and the Pharisees who held the seat of Moses and who happened to be vulchures were still called “theos” by Christ, not false theos and then he said we are all sons of the Most High and he finished by saying that he was the son of God. He didn't say I am God and he never said or claimed such. Get use to it WJ, there is no Trinity here.

    Your interpretation is that Jesus called them false gods and sons of the Most High in the same breath. Anyone without bias can see that this is not right.

    Honestly WJ, if you say that Jesus (the one you claim to worship) said something that he actually didn't say, then how exactly are you glorifying him by mis-representing him?

    #148020
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    WJ…….According to Jeff Benner, a Hebrew Scholar the word GOD was view by the ancient Hebrews as a uni-Plural word meaning POWERS. It's originally pictorial symbol, was the head of an OX with a STAFF,  the Ox symbol was the prime symbol for Power, and the Staff was what they leaned on for support. This was to them the symbol of the GOD of ISREAL. He was the POWER they LEANED on or TRUSTED IN. And if you takes this and apply it to Scriptures you can easily see how it fits. GOD the FATHER is the true POWER we and Jesus Lean or trust IN. Now if you apply this with the understanding that (ALL) POWERS came into existence by the ONE true POWER and was given from HIM to HIS CREATION, everything falls into place. WE are God's as Well as Jesus, but there is still (ONLY) ONE TRUE GOD were we derived our POWERS. When scripture speaks of false God's it is referencing Objects of Worship other than the ONE and ONLY TRUE GOD, not the fact that men are Gods and Sons of GOD, but putting something in HIS EXCLUSIVE PLACE IN OUR LIVES>  WJ in John 1:1……> it could be read in the beginning was the word (expressed intelligence) and the word (expressed intelligence) was GOD (POWERS) and WAS POWERS.  This is what created everything in existence in the beginning and distribute different POWERS to His creation. IT was the ONE ONLY (TRUE) GOD (POWER) as Jesus SAID.

    gene

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