John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 3,141 through 3,160 (of 26,009 total)
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  • #147818
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 29 2009,02:55)
    Hi Jack

    True, Joseph is not a good example because Joseph was ruler over all of Egypt by proxy.

    However, Christ is the builder and maker of his house and sits “In the throne” with the Father and is worshipped.

    In the Hebrew faith this would be idolatry. And in fact I believe those who believe that Jesus is not God sitting in God's throne (Heb 1:8), are committing Idolatry for they are creating a false image of the “Image of the invisible God”, which is Jesus who is God made visible.

    The “Right Hand of God” is a metophor of his equality with the Father.

    WJ


    It is a no brainer that it is not a perfect example due to the fact that the relationship that Jesus has with our Father God is unique and like no other. I was pointing out that God made Jesus lord and that the Pharoah made Joseph lord over his kingdom.

    It wasn't meant to be stretched to encompass other things like God creating all things through him etc, or God's invisible qualities or whatever else.

    Try to read the points and take thought as to what is said, rather than adding ideas and then bulldozing those added ideas down in some sort of victory march.

    Just a reminder that fools rush in where angels fear to tread. Take thought about what is being said before making replies WJ. It is better to be wise than cunning.

    #147822
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Quote (thethinker @ Sep. 28 2009,21:17)
    So you deny that the Father has exalted Jesus and has installed Him as God on the throne?

    “But to the Son He says, Your throne O God is forever and ever, and righteousness will be the scepter of YOUR kingdom.”

    You say that the Father is your God. Yet you reject that He has installed His Christ as God on the throne.

    WJ has effectively disrproved you. You claim that there is only one true God at the same time acknowledging that Christ is also a true God. If there is only one true God then Christ would be a false God.

    Your confusion is the result of failing to see that Christ's Father has installed Christ as God on the throne since then. If the Father is your God as you claim then accept it.

    Joseph and Pharoah are not analogous to Christs session at the Father's right. Sorry.

    thinker


    God has placed Christ on his throne to rule with him.
    Christ places some of us on his throne to rule with him.

    It is not meant to be taken as Christ being God or us being Christ.

    Revelation 3:21
    To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

    Also I do not say that Christ is the true God, I say that he is the son of God. Show me where I teach that Christ is the true God or a true God. I teach the truth regarding the use of the word 'theos' as it is applied to God, Jesus, and man. I have always said as scripture says, that the Father is the one true God. This is what Christ taught us and I believe him.

    Your comment about Joseph and Pharoah not being analogous to Christs session at the Father's right, is a silly comment because I am only saying that God made Jesus lord and the Pharoah made Jospeh lord of his kingdom. That is my point. I would appreciate very much if you didn't stretch my points any further. If you are going to quote or respond to something I said, please do not let your mind wander beyond what I have said. Much appreciated and thanks in advance.

    #147825

    Quote (t8 @ Sep. 28 2009,18:36)

    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 29 2009,02:55)
    Hi Jack

    True, Joseph is not a good example because Joseph was ruler over all of Egypt by proxy.

    However, Christ is the builder and maker of his house and sits “In the throne” with the Father and is worshipped.

    In the Hebrew faith this would be idolatry. And in fact I believe those who believe that Jesus is not God sitting in God's throne (Heb 1:8), are committing Idolatry for they are creating a false image of the “Image of the invisible God”, which is Jesus who is God made visible.

    The “Right Hand of God” is a metophor of his equality with the Father.

    WJ


    It is a no brainer that it is not a perfect example due to the fact that the relationship that Jesus has with our Father God is unique and like no other. I was pointing out that God made Jesus lord and that the Pharoah made Joseph lord over his kingdom.

    It wasn't meant to be stretched to encompass other things like God creating all things through him etc, or God's invisible qualities or whatever else.

    Try to read the points and take thought as to what is said, rather than adding ideas and then bulldozing those added ideas down in some sort of victory march.

    Just a reminder that fools rush in where angels fear to tread. Take thought about what is being said before making replies WJ. It is better to be wise than cunning.


    t8

    Its not a matter of bulldozing over your ideas. But your Ideas contain the inference that Jesus is less than the Father and not equal to him in authority and power.

    Have you considered how Jesus is not even subject to the Father at this time according to 1 Cor 15?

    Quote (t8 @ Sep. 28 2009,18:36)
    I was pointing out that God made Jesus lord and that the Pharoah made Joseph lord over his kingdom.


    The scripture you refer to in context where the Father made Jesus “Lord'”, was after his ressurection.

    But as usuall you forget other scriptures that show who Jesus was before his coming in the flesh and his exaltation.

    You forget John 1:1, and Phil 2:6-8 for example! And notice that it was Jesus who emptied himself and came in the likeness of sinful flesh. The Father didn't do it, Jesus did! How can any being but God do that?

    Do you believe Jesus was Lord before he returned to his previous glory with the Father?

    So your point to claim Jesus cannot be God because the Father made him Lord after the Ressurection is a mute point! Jesus had to fulfil everything that the Prophets spoke concerning him!

    Quote (t8 @ Sep. 28 2009,18:36)
    I was pointing out that God made Jesus lord and that the Pharoah made Joseph lord over his kingdom.


    True but also notice how the Kingdom was not Josephs and the Throne was not his, yet with Jesus he sits in the Fathers throne and it is his Kingdom for he also is “King of Kings and Lord of Lords”!

    WJ

    #147826
    KangarooJack
    Participant

    WorshippingJesus said to t8:

    Quote
    So your point to claim Jesus cannot be God because the Father made him Lord after the Ressurection is a mute point! Jesus had to fulfil everything that the Prophets spoke concerning him!

    Exactly! Jesus existed in the form of God but emptied Himself and became a servant so He could fulfill the law and the prophets. Therefore, God has highly exalted Him. Not only is He King of kings and Lord of lords, but He is also “God” on the throne (Heb. 1:8).

    You speak the truth WJ.

    thinker

    #147829

    t8

    Quote (t8 @ Sep. 28 2009,19:14)
    Also I do not say that Christ is the true God, I say that he is the son of God. Show me where I teach that Christ is the true God or a true God. I teach the truth regarding the use of the word 'theos' as it is applied to God, Jesus, and man. I have always said as scripture says, that the Father is the one true God.


    You are Equivocating!

    Jesus is called “God” in scriptures and we know that he is true, unlike the false gods, the wicked kings and judges!

    Therfore Jesus is True God (theos).

    WJ

    #147833
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi WJ,
    A man of God ultimately relying on logic to know Who God is?

    Amazing

    #147836
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 29 2009,11:56)
    t8

    Quote (t8 @ Sep. 28 2009,19:14)
    Also I do not say that Christ is the true God, I say that he is the son of God. Show me where I teach that Christ is the true God or a true God. I teach the truth regarding the use of the word 'theos' as it is applied to God, Jesus, and man. I have always said as scripture says, that the Father is the one true God.


    You are Equivocating!

    Jesus is called “God” in scriptures and we know that he is true, unlike the false gods, the wicked kings and judges!

    Therfore Jesus is True God (theos).

    WJ


    You do not understand the meaning of 'true'. When Jesus said “Ye are gods”, he wasn't saying “you are false gods”, by reason of the Father being the true God. If you cannot understand the usages of “theos”, then how will you ever progress? You cannot. You will just decide which uses of “theos” are part of the Trinity and which are not by your bias alone.

    Prove to me that Jesus was saying that they were false Gods, when he said “Is it not written in your Law, 'I have said you are gods' ?”

    Also prove to me that Satan is the false God of this world?

    The word God/Theos can also be applied (outside of the true God) as follows:

    refers to the things of God
    his counsels, interests, things due to him
    whatever can in any respect be likened unto God, or resemble him in any way
    God's representative or viceregent
    of magistrates and judges

    You are forced to see magistrates and judges as false gods.

    I am not forced to see it that way.

    Again, your bias forms your belief.

    #147844
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 29 2009,11:33)
    Its not a matter of bulldozing over your ideas. But your Ideas contain the inference that Jesus is less than the Father and not equal to him in authority and power.


    Have you not read:

    Mark 10:18
    “Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. “No one is good—except God alone.

    John 17:3
    Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

    Regarding your comment on inferences:

    many of the inferences you see are in the mind of the beholder. e.g., you say that I believe that Jesus is a false God because the Father is the true God. When I clearly show you the uses of “theos” such as “you are theos” outside of the one true God, you conclude that I believe in 2 Most Highs. Wake up WJ. Bias is the foundation of your doctrine and with that you make false accusations.

    Theos is used in a variety of ways in scripture and its use is not limited to your ignorance on the subject.

    I mean if I wanted to stoop to your level using inference, I could accuse you in the same way by saying that you also supposedly believe that the Father is the Most High God, therefore by reason of that, you are saying that Jesus is a false God. I could further say that there is one president and therefore adding in another person as president means that the second one must be false.

    But I do not go around saying that you say this, even though it could be construed as a fair use of inference from your statements. I actually don't think it would be fair to take your words and stretch them out of context.

    How about being a gentleman and sticking to what we are actually saying and not adding to what we are actually saying? Is this asking too much?

    If you want to be like Jesus then why say false things?

    #147847

    t8

    Quote (t8 @ Sep. 28 2009,20:29)
    Prove to me that Jesus was saying that they were false Gods, when he said “Is it not written in your Law, 'I have said you are gods' ?”


    Thats easy…

    Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: “BEFORE ME THERE WAS NO GOD FORMED, NEITHER SHALL THERE BE AFTER ME.  Isa 43:10

    “Now concerning everything which I have said to you, be on your guard; and “DO NOT MENTION THE NAME OF OTHER GODS, NOR LET THEM BE HEARD FROM YOUR MOUTH. Exod 23:13

    You do believe that Jesus knew these scriptures don't you?

    So maybe your undersstanding of Jesus quoting the Psalmist in refering to wicked men and judges is wrong and in fact the Psalmist writes…

    But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes. Ps 82:7

    Were they gods t8? Is this what Jesus is implying?

    Jesus gave Paul direct revelation of the Gospel and Paul said…

    So then, about eating food sacrificed to idols: We know that an idol is nothing at all in the world and that “THERE IS NO GOD BUT ONE“. For even if there “ARE SO CALLED GODS”, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”), 1 Cor 8:4, 5

    So now please show me in the NT a scripture anywhere where the word “Theos” is applied to an Apostle or follower of Christ.

    So you rest your faith on an ambiguos scripture which Jesus quotes to show their own Hypocrosy to promote Henotheism or Polytheism. Jesus knew the Hebrew scriptures and that there is no God but One, neither were there any formed. And all so-called gods by men are not gods at all.

    Again you claim that men are gods (theos) but Paul says no such thing…

    So then, about eating food sacrificed to idols: We know that an idol is nothing at all in the world and that “THERE IS NO GOD BUT ONE“. For even if there “ARE SO CALLED GODS”, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”), 1 Cor 8:4, 5

    You do believe Pauls words don't you t8 when he says…

    THERE IS NO GOD BUT ONE“. For even if there “ARE SO CALLED GODS

    Quote (t8 @ Sep. 28 2009,20:29)
    Also prove to me that Satan is the false God of this world?


    Nice how you called satan the “God” of this world with a capitol “G”.

    You have shown your own arrogance against scriptures by doing so. For you have just changed the Translations of over 600 scholars who know far more about the use of the word “Theos” than you do.

    Is satan the “True God” of this world? Or is he a liar and a Usurper over men?

    Is this all you have? Two lonely scriptures that call wicked men and the wicked being satan god.

    Now compare that with this…

    In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. Jn 1:1

    But unto the Son [he saith], Thy throne, O God, [is] for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness [is] the sceptre of thy kingdom. Heb 1:8

    Or this…

    while we wait for the blessed hope–the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, Titus 2:13

    Quote (t8 @ Sep. 28 2009,20:29)
    You are forced to see magistrates and judges as false gods.
    I am not forced to see it that way.

    Of course you are not forced, because you are a Henotheist who believes in more than “One Theos” God!

    Quote (t8 @ Sep. 28 2009,20:29)
    Again, your bias forms your belief.


    Looking in the mirror again!

    WJ

    #147848
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi WJ,
    Still you do not know the God of Israel despite the revelations of Jesus His Son.
    “listen to him”

    #147854
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    WJ……….Trying to make Jesus the GOD (HE) served and always did what was pleasing to HIM , is wrong, Jesus did everything He did in as a Servant to HIS GOD, which He Said was the (ONLY) TRUE GOD. Now you can dance around that all you want, by going and getting scripture you can twist to show different , But would it be better to Believe what Jesus Said. Why can't you believe Him what is stopping you from that. Let me tell you what is , all the False teachings of the TRINITY has sealed your thinking to where you simply wont (consider) what we are telling you. Scrap the TRINITY and start anew. I mean this is a loving way , not trying to be Hostel, I know I can be at times , but WJ, I am pleading with you to reconsider you stand on the trinity while there is still time.

    Peace and love to you and yours………………………….gene

    #147861
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 29 2009,05:30)

    Quote (Gene @ Sep. 28 2009,13:15)

    WJ………If i said  with that Rock, i will build my house with would you think I was the material that i would use to build the House with?Tell us was Jesus (NOT) Flesh and BLOOD, if you answer that with a Yes then He could not be the one He was referring to Peter about. I mean simple common sense would tell you that.  God the FATHER was the ROCK Jesus was using to BUILD the Church of GOD. YOU can't even go to Jesus in order to be part of the Church unless the FATHER draw YOU. And I never Said or admitted Jesus was GOD, Jesus said there is (ONLY) ONE TRUE GOD and He never said HE was that GOD.  Not  to mention GOD himself said He was the (ONLY) GOD and told us to have (NO)other GOD besides HIM.  It doesn't seem to bother you people to Go completely against the truth, are you void of understanding completely, Amazing , you can't even understand simple thing.  IMO

    gene


    Gene

    Quote (Gene @ Sep. 28 2009,13:15)
    God the FATHER was the ROCK Jesus was using to BUILD the Church of GOD.


    This is so twisted and confusing I do not even know where to start.

    So Jesus is “Using” the Father to build his Church?

    I think you are admitting that “Jesus is building his Church”.

    Gene, the foundation of the Church is the Apostles and the Prophets, Jesus Christ being the “Chief Cornerstone”.

    Remeber Christ is that Rock that followed them in the wilderness!

    This is the One you are rejecting!

    WJ


    WJ………Are you even aware that there is a Scripture that says that we are (GOD) building the He BUILT.

    Heb 3:4…..> For every house is built by some man; but he that built all things is GOD.

    1 Peter 2:5 Ye also as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to GOD, (BY) Jesus the Christ.

    Now read that slow, acceptable to (who) “GOD” (BY WHO) Jesus the Anointed or Christ. Does that seam like the same Jesus is making Us acceptable to Himself or (HIS GOD)>

    Jesus is indeed building the Church using what GOD the FATHER who is the ROCK supplies. GOD the FATHER supplies HOLY SPIRIT led Sheep and send them to Jesus the ones He builds the church with. Jesus plainly said (NO) Man (CAN) Come UNTO ME (UNLESS THE FATHER DRAW HIM> GOD is the ROCK that is supplying the material to Build the Church. It is GOD the FATHER HIMSELF. And Jesus is the Master builder along with the Apostles . Jesus being the head APOSTLE. And Himself the Chief cornerstone of that building that GOD is BUILDING.

    gene

    #147874

    Gene

    Quote (Gene @ Sep. 28 2009,23:48)
    Jesus being the head APOSTLE. And Himself the Chief cornerstone of that building that GOD is BUILDING.


    So Jesus was telling a lie when he said…

    And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock “I WILL BUILD MY CHURCH; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. Matt 16:18

    Now compare that with this…

    Keep watch over yourselves and all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers.* “Be shepherds of the church of God,* WHICH HE BOUGHT WITH HIS OWN BLOOD”. Acts 20:28

    You dodged this one…

    Do you see it Gene? Jesus is building the Church and calls it “HIS” Church!, and Acts 20:28 calls it the Church of God which he (God) purchased with his own blood!

    Why do you ignore these scriptures?

    WJ

    #147876

    The statement by St. Athanasius of Alexandria, “The Son of God became man, that we might become god”, [the second g is always lowercase since man can never become a God] indicates the concept beautifully. II Peter 1:4 says that we have become ” . . . partakers of divine nature.” Athanasius amplifies the meaning of this verse when he says theosis is “becoming by grace what God is by nature” (De Incarnatione, I). What would otherwise seem absurd, that fallen, sinful man may become holy as God is holy, has been made possible through Jesus Christ, who is God incarnate. Naturally, the crucial Christian assertion, that God is One, sets an absolute limit on the meaning of theosis – it is not possible for any created being to become, ontologically, God or even another god.

    Please see the full article here: http://orthodoxwiki.org/Theosis

    #147878
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi CA,
    Is this the man suspected of murder?
    Fruit is the guide.

    #147880
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 29 2009,13:37)
    t8

    Quote (t8 @ Sep. 28 2009,20:29)
    Prove to me that Jesus was saying that they were false Gods, when he said “Is it not written in your Law, 'I have said you are gods' ?”


    Thats easy…

    Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: “BEFORE ME THERE WAS NO GOD FORMED, NEITHER SHALL THERE BE AFTER ME.  Isa 43:10

    “Now concerning everything which I have said to you, be on your guard; and “DO NOT MENTION THE NAME OF OTHER GODS, NOR LET THEM BE HEARD FROM YOUR MOUTH. Exod 23:13

    You do believe that Jesus knew these scriptures don't you?

    So maybe your undersstanding of Jesus quoting the Psalmist in refering to wicked men and judges is wrong and in fact the Psalmist writes…

    But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes. Ps 82:7

    Were they gods t8? Is this what Jesus is implying?

    Jesus gave Paul direct revelation of the Gospel and Paul said…

    So then, about eating food sacrificed to idols: We know that an idol is nothing at all in the world and that “THERE IS NO GOD BUT ONE“. For even if there “ARE SO CALLED GODS”, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”), 1 Cor 8:4, 5

    So now please show me in the NT a scripture anywhere where the word “Theos” is applied to an Apostle or follower of Christ.

    So you rest your faith on an ambiguos scripture which Jesus quotes to show their own Hypocrosy to promote Henotheism or Polytheism. Jesus knew the Hebrew scriptures and that there is no God but One, neither were there any formed. And all so-called gods by men are not gods at all.

    Again you claim that men are gods (theos) but Paul says no such thing…

    So then, about eating food sacrificed to idols: We know that an idol is nothing at all in the world and that “THERE IS NO GOD BUT ONE“. For even if there “ARE SO CALLED GODS”, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”), 1 Cor 8:4, 5

    You do believe Pauls words don't you t8 when he says…

    THERE IS NO GOD BUT ONE“. For even if there “ARE SO CALLED GODS

    Quote (t8 @ Sep. 28 2009,20:29)
    Also prove to me that Satan is the false God of this world?


    Nice how you called satan the “God” of this world with a capitol “G”.

    You have shown your own arrogance against scriptures by doing so. For you have just changed the Translations of over 600 scholars who know far more about you and the use of the word “Theos”.

    Is satan the “True God” of this world? Or is he a liar and a Usurper over men?

    Is this all you have? Two lonely scriptures that call wicked men and the wicked being satan god.

    Now compare that with this…

    In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. Jn 1:1

    But unto the Son [he saith], Thy throne, O God, [is] for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness [is] the sceptre of thy kingdom. Heb 1:8

    Or this…

    while we wait for the blessed hope–the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, Titus 2:13

    Quote (t8 @ Sep. 28 2009,20:29)
    You are forced to see magistrates and judges as false gods.
    I am not forced to see it that way.

    Of course you are not forced, because you are a Henotheist who believes in more than “One Theos” God!

    Quote (t8 @ Sep. 28 2009,20:29)
    Again, your bias forms your belief.


    Looking in the mirror again!

    WJ


    Try again WJ.

    You commentaries are always biased because you isolate certain scriptures and ignore difficult ones.

    If you included other scriptures in your writing, then you might have more credibility.

    You neglect to mention this for example:

    Psalm 82:6
    “I said, 'You are “gods”; you are all sons of the Most High.'

    Where is the reference to “false” gods? It actually says sons of the Most High in the same sentence.

    When you can give a fair commentary and include all scripture, not just the ones you can twist, then someone actually might take you seriously.

    Obviously the words 'theos' and 'elohim' are used in a greater context than you can appreciate and used in a way that doesn't infringe on the truth that the true God is the Most High God. This is the reality we find in scripture and a reality that you continually put your head in the sand in order to ignore.

    I think you should give up teaching because teachers incur a stricter judgement and we are responsible for that which we teach. If you can't give up teaching the false doctrine of the trinity for the sake of others, what about doing it for yourself?

    #147898
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    T8…….> Amen to that Post. WJ do not realize the term GOD is Elohim , which simply means POWERS, and Our Heavenly Father is the MOST HIGH GOD, in fact Because He is the source of all POWER, He then is the (ONLY) TRUE GOD. As Jesus said, But The Father Has distributed (POWERS) to his creation, some are given More then others , but these powers are a reflection of Gods Power, because He is there source Jesus said to Pilot , He could have no power except it had been given him by GOD. God the FATHER is the Source of (ALL) POWER and He balances it out in His creation which we are Part of, as well as Jesus also. I wish WJ could understand these things. I hope others who are following these debates can come to see How destructive and confusing the teaching of the Trinity really is, it is the source of a host of false assumption and Lies concerning Jesus as well as the FATHER. May GOD help us all to get through all this garbage taught by these deluded teachers. Perhaps He is sharping us up for future service in the Kingdom, as we deal with all these twist and turn posted here. I know it has helped me dig deeper into the word of GOD and become more solid in my thinking and relationship with GOD the FATHER and Jesus. Keep up the good work T8.

    peace and love to you and yours……………………..gene

    #147904
    georg
    Participant

    T8 I have read most of the Posts that you and others made. If it says that we are the Sons of God and Jesus is the Son of God, second in command. When we belonged to the W.W.Church of God we had a Feast of Tabernacle titled ” We are Family.” I always think about that when others want to make Jesus the Mighty God. I take the word God as a Family name, and I have no problems with the word God. Our Heavenly Father has a name besides being called God. If you look in the Old Testament God our Heavenly Father is called Jehovah. One more thing, did you ever think if the Holy Spirit is a Person and I said this before, then He is the Father of Jesus. Now how ridiculous is that.
    W. J. you also forgetting that the Head of every man is Christ and the Head of a woman is man and the Head of Christ is God, the Father. 1 Corinth. 1:13.
    Also the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of the Father, and not a Person, like you and others believe, the trinity doctrine. It has wholes in it. It is a manmade doctrine and not of God.
    Peace and Love Irene

    #147905
    KangarooJack
    Participant

    Worshippingjesus said to t8:

    Quote
    Again you claim that men are gods (theos) but Paul says no such thing…


    The title “gods” in reference to men simply meant “magistrates” or “rulers.” The idea of deities was never present.

    thinker

    #147911
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi TT,
    So you think Jesus is a deity?
    How many gods do you have?

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