John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 3,101 through 3,120 (of 26,009 total)
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  • #147755

    Gene

    Quote (Gene @ Sep. 28 2009,11:33)
    WJ……….Quite wrong , GOD HIMSELF is the ROCK that BUILDS the CHURCH.


    Gene, why do you always make statements like this without any scripture to support your statements?

    Your inference is wrong, but you do not even realize that you just confessed that Jesus is God.

    And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock “I WILL BUILD MY CHURCH; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. Matt 16:18

    Now compare that with this…

    Keep watch over yourselves and all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers.* “Be shepherds of the church of God,* WHICH HE BOUGHT WITH HIS OWN BLOOD”. Acts 20:28

    Do you see it Gene? Jesus is building the Church and calls it “HIS” Church!, and Acts 20:28 calls it the Church of God which he (God) purchased with his own blood!

    Your statement to me is proof that you have not even gone past the “first principles of the oracles of God”.

    WJ

    #147756

    Quote (Gene @ Sep. 28 2009,11:40)
    WJ…..Why can't you TRINITARIANS even get the simple thing right , what is blocking your understandings< O what a tangled wed we weave when we first practice to deceive. Sad Part is that your not even aware of It. GOD HELP US ALL!

    LOVE AND PEACE ……………..GENE


    Ha ha!

    This coming from one who doesn't believe “Jesus is building his Church“!

    :D

    WJ

    #147759
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    WJ………Please show me where i said Jesus was not building the Church. Again another false assumption. The scripture i qouted shows absolutely Jesus is building , (BY) the ROCK, who is (REVEALING TRUTH INTO PEOPLES MINDS) That IS GOD the FATHER (NOT JESUS> or do you think Jesus was in Heaven and was not flesh and Blood, remember He said “flesh and Blood has (NOT) revealed that unto you Peter. To further add to this JESUS EVEN SAID (NO) MAN (CAN) COME UNTO ME EXCEPT THE (FATHER) (DRAW HIM. SO who do you say is causing the church to be built. It is GOD the FATHER HIMSELF . Go back an reread what i quotes Jesus telling Peter and this time without the distorted Trinitarian Glass on, and it shall become quite clear to you. WHO the (ROCK) Jesus is using to Build the Church Is. Remember Jesus said He could do (NOTHING) of HIMSELF, He is (NOT GOD) WJ. He is subject to GOD now and when He was on earth, saying I alway do what pleases the FATHER. why can't you Trinitarians get that in you heads. You have pushed Jesus to even Higher the GOD the FATHER HIMSELF. PURE Idolatry. IMO

    gene

    #147760
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    WJ……….Another thing a Shepard is a Watchmen over the Sheep, but not the Owner, we are put in His trust He is the Shepard of the flock of GOD. Why do you TRINITARIANS Keep trying to deal GOD the FATHER out of the picture all the time. That is what Idolatry is.. Jesus said He could do (NOTHING) by HIMSELF what part of that you don't understand. IMO

    gene

    #147762
    KangarooJack
    Participant

    WorshippingJesus said:

    Quote
    Hi Jack

    True, Joseph is not a good example because Joseph was ruler over all of Egypt by proxy.

    However, Christ is the builder and maker of his house and sits “In the throne” with the Father and is worshipped.

    In the Hebrew faith this would be idolatry. And in fact I believe those who believe that Jesus is not God sitting in God's throne (Heb 1:8), are committing Idolatry for they are creating a false image of the “Image of the invisible God”, which is Jesus who is God made visible.

    The “Right Hand of God” is a metophor of his equality with the Father.

    WJ

    WJ,
    Yes and the scripture says that “every creature” in heaven and in earth worships the Father AND THE Lamb

    Quote
    13And EVERY CREATURE which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, AND UNTO THE LAMB, for ever and ever.

    14And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever.

    It says that “every creature in heaven and earth” worships the Lamb (with the Father). The four living creatures say “Amen.” If the Revelation was being written today it would say “every creature but Gene.” He would not say “amen” with the four living creatures. He would say,  “No way!”

    thinker

    #147763
    KangarooJack
    Participant

    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 29 2009,03:48)
    Gene

    Quote (Gene @ Sep. 28 2009,11:33)
    WJ……….Quite wrong , GOD HIMSELF is the ROCK that BUILDS the CHURCH.


    Gene, why do you always make statements like this without any scripture to support your statements?

    Your inference is wrong, but you do not even realize that you just confessed that Jesus is God.

    And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock “I WILL BUILD MY CHURCH; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. Matt 16:18

    Now compare that with this…

    Keep watch over yourselves and all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers.* “Be shepherds of the church of God,* WHICH HE BOUGHT WITH HIS OWN BLOOD”. Acts 20:28

    Do you see it Gene? Jesus is building the Church and calls it “HIS” Church!, and Acts 20:28 calls it the Church of God which he (God) purchased with his own blood!

    Your statement to me is proof that you have not even gone past the “first principles of the oracles of God”.

    WJ


    WJ,
    Gene knows all this stuff. He is being stiffnecked about it. He has been given Hebrews 3:1-4 which says that Christ is “counted worthy” of the glory of the builder and that the builder is God. Therefore, Christ is counted worthy to receive glory EQUAL to God

    Quote
    1Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;

    2Who was faithful to him that appointed him, as also Moses was faithful in all his house.

    3For this man was counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as he who hath builded the house hath more honour than the house.

    4For every house is builded by some man; but he that built all things is God.

    Christ is “counted worthy” of the glory of the builder. Moreover, Jesus said, “I will build MY church” not God's church showing that there is no difference. This was an idolatrous statement according to Gene's logic because we are God's church. Yet Christ says, “I will build MY church.”

    thinker

    #147764

    Quote (thethinker @ Sep. 28 2009,12:43)
    WorshippingJesus said:

    Quote
    Hi Jack

    True, Joseph is not a good example because Joseph was ruler over all of Egypt by proxy.

    However, Christ is the builder and maker of his house and sits “In the throne” with the Father and is worshipped.

    In the Hebrew faith this would be idolatry. And in fact I believe those who believe that Jesus is not God sitting in God's throne (Heb 1:8), are committing Idolatry for they are creating a false image of the “Image of the invisible God”, which is Jesus who is God made visible.

    The “Right Hand of God” is a metophor of his equality with the Father.

    WJ

    WJ,
    Yes and the scripture says that “every creature” in heaven and in earth worships the Father AND THE Lamb

    Quote
    13And EVERY CREATURE which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, AND UNTO THE LAMB, for ever and ever.

    14And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever.

    It says that “every creature in heaven and earth” worships the Lamb (with the Father). The four living creatures say “Amen.” If the Revelation was being written today it would say “every creature but Gene.” He would not say “amen” with the four living creatures. He would say,  “No way!”

    thinker


    True Jack

    And their is no distinction between the two.

    It doesn't say they worshipped the Father as God and Jesus as the Son!

    WJ

    #147765

    Gene

    Quote (Gene @ Sep. 28 2009,12:25)
    WJ………Please show me where i said Jesus was not building the Church. Again another false assumption.


    These are your words are they not?

    Quote (Gene @ Sep. 28 2009,11:33)
    WJ……….Quite wrong , GOD HIMSELF is the ROCK that BUILDS the CHURCH.


    Thanks, you just admitted that Jesus is God!

    WJ

    #147766
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    WJ………If i said with that Rock, i will build my house with would you think I was the material that i would use to build the House with?Tell us was Jesus (NOT) Flesh and BLOOD, if you answer that with a Yes then He could not be the one He was referring to Peter about. I mean simple common sense would tell you that. God the FATHER was the ROCK Jesus was using to BUILD the Church of GOD. YOU can't even go to Jesus in order to be part of the Church unless the FATHER draw YOU. And I never Said or admitted Jesus was GOD, Jesus said there is (ONLY) ONE TRUE GOD and He never said HE was that GOD. Not to mention GOD himself said He was the (ONLY) GOD and told us to have (NO)other GOD besides HIM. It doesn't seem to bother you people to Go completely against the truth, are you void of understanding completely, Amazing , you can't even understand simple thing. IMO

    gene

    #147767

    Quote (Gene @ Sep. 28 2009,13:15)

    WJ………If i said  with that Rock, i will build my house with would you think I was the material that i would use to build the House with?Tell us was Jesus (NOT) Flesh and BLOOD, if you answer that with a Yes then He could not be the one He was referring to Peter about. I mean simple common sense would tell you that.  God the FATHER was the ROCK Jesus was using to BUILD the Church of GOD. YOU can't even go to Jesus in order to be part of the Church unless the FATHER draw YOU. And I never Said or admitted Jesus was GOD, Jesus said there is (ONLY) ONE TRUE GOD and He never said HE was that GOD.  Not  to mention GOD himself said He was the (ONLY) GOD and told us to have (NO)other GOD besides HIM.  It doesn't seem to bother you people to Go completely against the truth, are you void of understanding completely, Amazing , you can't even understand simple thing.  IMO

    gene


    Gene

    Quote (Gene @ Sep. 28 2009,13:15)
    God the FATHER was the ROCK Jesus was using to BUILD the Church of GOD.


    This is so twisted and confusing I do not even know where to start.

    So Jesus is “Using” the Father to build his Church?

    I think you are admitting that “Jesus is building his Church”.

    Gene, the foundation of the Church is the Apostles and the Prophets, Jesus Christ being the “Chief Cornerstone”.

    Remeber Christ is that Rock that followed them in the wilderness!

    This is the One you are rejecting!

    WJ

    #147768
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Yes WJ,
    Jesus is the chief cornerstone in God's church and his brothers form the living stones.[eph2, 1Peter2, Rev 21]
    So why did you think he was God?

    #147772

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 28 2009,13:54)
    Yes WJ,
    Jesus is the chief cornerstone in God's church and his brothers form the living stones.[eph2, 1Peter2, Rev 21]
    So why did you think he was God?


    NH

    Because he is also the “Rock” that followed them in the wilderness and that “Rock” was YHWH!

    WJ

    #147773
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi WJ,
    Scripture says THAT ROCK WAS CHRIST not his Father.[1Cor10]
    The water was real water for the Jews but was as the Spirit [Jn7]and the rock was as Christ.

    #147776
    Not3in1
    Participant

    Good morning, CA!

    Quote
    It is because of this harmony that I live that I cannot confess that truth can be contradictory….if that is what you are saying….which I suspect you don't really say when pressed.


    I'm afraid that is exactly what I am saying.

    You have found the solution to the problem (buying the Catholic answers and never looking back…).  I have found another solution to the problem (not buying the Catholic answers and continuing my peaceful trek for truth.).

    So what is this PROBLEM that we both had to solve?  The problem is “truth”.  What is it?  Who has it?  What does it look like?  How will God reveal it?  Will we be in trouble if we can't figure it out?  Can we choose the wrong one? Is there only one truth?

    For you, the church has answered all of these questions.  You are satisfied with the answers she has given you.  I am not.  Does that make the Church right and me wrong?  Hmmmm.  Can our ideas of truth be opposite and still be true in both of our eyes?  You betcha.

    This is the problem with truth……  We all want it.  But it looks and acts differently depending on which “truth” you subscribe to as an individual.

    You could put a dozen people in a room and ask them this question:  If you put your bare hand into a fire for a few minutes, would you get burned?  Chances are 100% of the folks would say, yes!  Because we know that is true.

    Now ask the dozen folks this question:  Is Jesus God?  Well, the results will vary of course.  Why?

    So there is phyisical truth.  You cannot both believe that your hand will not burn in a fire, and also that it will burn in a fire.  Proof is available to show you that one side is absolutely true!

    And there is spiritual truth.  You CAN believe that Jesus is God, and also that Jesus is not God.  Kathi believes that Jesus is God but not the Most high God, for instance.  My point is that spiritual truth is more flexible.  :;):

    Quote
    Truth is self-validating.  Another way to say it is that when we have truth everything comes together on a variety of levels.  Everything fits together like a puzzle.  No more squares in round holes.


    No, no I don't buy this – sorry.  There are several members here who could stack their completed puzzles like Dominos if you wish.  The pieces all flow nicely together.  Their dogma is flawless according to the scriptures they give as evidence.  The puzzle is complete.  They have heard from God and the Spirit has confirmed – they are set on their version of “truth”.  To them they are convinced.  The rest of us?  Not so much.  So do they have the truth or not?  Their puzzles are tidy enough?

    Quote
    I have found something more than this.  Truth is irrefutable.  All of the pieces come together and stay together when you have truth.  This is not to say that you know everything….of course not.  This is to say that everything you know or can know is in harmony and you are at peace.


    CA, I am happy for you, I really am.  I know what it's like to want the truth so bad you would be willing to give your skin for it!  The fact that you believe you have found the ultimate truth must be a huge relief.  The struggle to “know” is over for you – now you study and learn but you never have to uncover any new truth again.  From now on, the Church defines what is true for you.  And like you said, it will never change.  That is comforting to you.  Not to me, however.  I believe spiritual truth can change.

    I have to tell ya, I did fine in church as long as I asked all the questions the church gave me to ask (because after all, she also provided the answers).  But when I started asking questions that the church didn't want me to ask (because she didn't have those answers), it was then that I started to wonder if there was only ONE truth.

    I'm much more at peace out here in the wilderness.  I find that God meets me here often.  There is no need for books or buildings!  And I will never again say that God told me something, or that his Spirit told me something…..  I don't believe God works that way anymore.  If he did, there would be a lot more folks on the same page.

    Not all who wander are lost.  J.R.R. Tolkien

    Love you,
    Mandy

    #147777
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi not3,
    What is truth?
    Thy Word is truth.

    You too are limiting truth to your measures.
    Patience.

    Feed on the word and the morning star will shine in your heart.

    #147785
    KangarooJack
    Participant

    Gene said:

    Quote
    YOU can't even go to Jesus in order to be part of the Church unless the FATHER draw YOU.

    Gene.

    Nonsense Cat! Jesus said that when He was lifted up that HE HIMSELF would draw all men to Himself,

    “And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.”

    You keep denying Him the authority He received at His exaltation.

    Before His exaltation: The Father drew men to Christ (John 6:44).

    After His exaltation: Jesus draws all men to Himself (John 12:32).

    Get it right Cat!

    thinker

    #147787
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi TT,
    God was and is in Christ.
    The light of the Spirit of God within him draws the willing.

    #147789
    KangarooJack
    Participant

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 29 2009,08:34)
    Hi TT,
    God was and is in Christ.
    The light of the Spirit of God within him draws the willing.


    In the days of His flesh. There is no “IN” now that Jesus is spirit again like He was before.

    thinker

    #147791

    Quote (thethinker @ Sep. 28 2009,16:31)
    Gene said:

    Quote
    YOU can't even go to Jesus in order to be part of the Church unless the FATHER draw YOU.

    Gene.

    Nonsense Cat! Jesus said that when He was lifted up that HE HIMSELF would draw all men to Himself,

    “And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.”

    You keep denying Him the authority He received at His exaltation.

    Before His exaltation: The Father drew men to Christ (John 6:44).

    After His exaltation: Jesus draws all men Himself (John 12:32).

    Get it right Cat!

    thinker


    Jack

    It is as if they refuse to see that Jesus has “All Authority and Power” and that the Father has committed all things into his hands including all judgment.

    They think that Jesus is still in the flesh and see him as a mere man, when in fact by virtue of his position with the Father he is God! My Lord , Jesus isn't even subjected to the Father at this time according to 1 Cor 15, and he is in the highest possible postion in the universe all authority and power subject to him!

    They accuse us of giving Jesus equal honour as to the Father when infact that is what the Father has done, is give him equal Honour by setting him at his own right hand!

    I am convinced that only the Spirit of God can open their eyes, for it is only by the Spirit that one can confess that Jesus is Lord!

    WJ

    #147792
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Quote (thethinker @ Sep. 29 2009,08:36)

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 29 2009,08:34)
    Hi TT,
    God was and is in Christ.
    The light of the Spirit of God within him draws the willing.


    In the days of His flesh. There is no “IN” now that Jesus is spirit again like He was before.

    thinker


    Hi TT,
    Jesus is now alive in the Spirit of God with Abraham and Moses, Eljah, Isaac and Jacob and the other sons of God.

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