John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 3,081 through 3,100 (of 26,009 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #147681

    Quote (t8 @ Sep. 27 2009,19:17)
    Are you saying that the indulgences never happened or that it was not the wishes of those in command of the RCC?


    O my goodness…you don't even know what indulgences are do you?

    We believe that the Church has power to grant indulgences. We just don't SELL them.

    Indulgences have nothing whatever to do with getting people out of hell. They have no benefit to anyone but those who are being saved.

    Do you know what an indulgence is? Please explain them to us.

    #147683

    Quote (t8 @ Sep. 27 2009,21:09)
    Thinker.

    Playing with words cannot make something wrong, right.


    t8,

    Facts are stubborn things. Sounds like your arguments with Thinker are melting. Why don't you just admit defeat.?

    Thinker,

    I encourage you to not let him change the topic. You've got him…again.

    #147684
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi CA,
    It seems WE BELIEVE lots of fanciful things like purgatory and heavenly mothers and rosaries and stuff.
    Amazing what accretions grow on a denomination when she decides she is fit to decide such things.

    Anything goes

    #147685

    Quote (georg @ Sep. 28 2009,01:05)
    t8

    I like your debate with thinker, but how do you describe colors to a blind person?

    Georg


    Georg,

    Yes. And how do you explain a being who is a Trinity of persons to one who is not?

    It's probably similar to computers trying to figure out humans. One computer says…no, no, they have what is called emotions….the rest laugh and say….no no, that is absurd….WE don't have emotions….how unreasonable….

    #147686

    Quote (Not3in1 @ Sep. 28 2009,05:41)
    One man's “truth” is another man's “false doctrine”.

    Share your version of the truth all you like, but obviously it's not the ONLY truth available here.


    Sounding kind of post-modern there. This is relativism.

    Please explain?

    #147687
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    CA……….YOUR Church sales them so you should describe them. IMO

    To my understanding a indulgence is where YOUR Pope payers for the recipient ,For a little change of course to support “the church”. A gift to “GOD” that never Reaches God , Just the Pope and HIS officers. Martin Luther found them to be an atrocity and the money was used for were some of the most vile things on earth . Read Luther's reports.

    gene

    #147691
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Quote (CatholicApologist @ Sep. 28 2009,14:05)

    Quote (t8 @ Sep. 27 2009,21:09)
    Thinker.

    Playing with words cannot make something wrong, right.


    t8,

    Facts are stubborn things.  Sounds like your arguments with Thinker are melting.  Why don't you just admit defeat.?

    Thinker,

    I encourage you to not let him change the topic.  You've got him…again.


    Ha ha. I like it. Very funny.

    Ignore all the arguments and scripture and then just make a general statement saying I am losing and thinker is winning. That way you might get lucky and give an appearance of victory to someone who has just joined the conversation or to others who may not understand what is going on.

    Good entertainment value if anything. I really don't think your post will be taken seriously by anyone who reads these posts carefully. Anyway, could you kindly point out exactly what it is that you are claiming victory over? What is thinker saying that is disintegrating the truth that for us, there is one God the Father and one lord the Lord Jesus Christ.

    We all wait with great anticipation for factual support for your drive by post.

    :D

    #147692
    Not3in1
    Participant

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 28 2009,06:16)
    Hi Not3,
    So, like Pilate, you do not believe truth actually exists?


    What is truth?

    #147694
    Not3in1
    Participant

    Quote (CatholicApologist @ Sep. 28 2009,14:10)

    Quote (Not3in1 @ Sep. 28 2009,05:41)
    One man's “truth” is another man's “false doctrine”.

    Share your version of the truth all you like, but obviously it's not the ONLY truth available here.


    Sounding kind of post-modern there.  This is relativism.

    Please explain?


    Hey CA,

    I'm not sure if I can say it any other way?

    You found something that you think is truth because you are convinced it is truth. I may find the same thing and believe it is false because I am convinced it is false.

    How is “truth” determined in this instance? It cannot be.

    Love,
    Mandy

    #147695
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Mandy……What is real, reality from GOD that is what truth is. The SPIRIT (intellect) given by GOD is the power to recognize truth It gives us the ability to recognize what is right and what is wrong. FOR THE SPIRIT BOTH ACCUSES US AND DEFENDS US. The Spirit (intellect) of Truth is the (EARNEST OF GOD GIVEN TO US). It is the power to recognize truth. “After that you have recieved (POWER) from on HIGH”. That became the anchor to the Apostles Souls and with it we can sort through this maze of confusion call “religion”. IMO

    peace and love to you and yours Sis……………….gene

    #147721

    Quote (Not3in1 @ Sep. 28 2009,14:56)

    Quote (CatholicApologist @ Sep. 28 2009,14:10)

    Quote (Not3in1 @ Sep. 28 2009,05:41)
    One man's “truth” is another man's “false doctrine”.

    Share your version of the truth all you like, but obviously it's not the ONLY truth available here.


    Sounding kind of post-modern there.  This is relativism.

    Please explain?


    Hey CA,

    I'm not sure if I can say it any other way?

    You found something that you think is truth because you are convinced it is truth.  I may find the same thing and believe it is false because I am convinced it is false.

    How is “truth” determined in this instance?  It cannot be.

    Love,
    Mandy


    It's just that when you use terms like not the “only truth” it seems like you are saying that two opposing views can both be true. This is highly unreasonable to me. Did you mean this?

    I found something and was convinced, yes. But while reason was a main player, it was not the only tool used in my conversion. The Christian faith is proved on a variety of levels.

    What I am contending for is the belief that the Christian faith does not defy reason. Faith and reason are compatible.

    So you ask, “How is “truth” determined in this instance?”

    Good question.

    My answer is this. It is that Truth is self-validating. Another way to say it is that when we have truth everything comes together on a variety of levels. Everything fits together like a puzzle. No more squares in round holes.

    Another way to look at this is by the image of light. Even when we're in the dark, we know some things to be true…one of those things is that we are in the dark.

    I think most the chaps here would recognize the degree of light they possess. But if they were honest, there is much that they are in the dark about. In those areas they can make an educated guess at best. So yes, I want to ask too “How is “truth” determined by an educated guess?”

    It's not.

    I have found something more than this. Truth is irrefutable. All of the pieces come together and stay together when you have truth. This is not to say that you know everything….of course not. This is to say that everything you know or can know is in harmony and you are at peace.

    It is because of this harmony that I live that I cannot confess that truth can be contradictory….if that is what you are saying….which I suspect you don't really say when pressed.

    #147723
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi CA,
    Do you think this worship of reason is where your church went wrong?

    #147724

    t8 wrote:

    Quote
    Jesus may have YHWH's name in him, but so do many others.

    This is your pet doctrine that you or someone concocted to explain away the passages of Scripture that clearly point to Jesus as YHWH.

    Yet when you look at these passages, you have to READ INTO the text that YHWH's name was merely in Him…and come out believing that he is not Him. That's called eisegesis.

    But very characteristic of you.

    #147739
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi CA,
    Jesus is I AM WHO AM?
    Then who is his Father or is he his own father?
    Who is the God who was IN HIM reconciling the world to Himself?
    Who is the God Who anointed him with the Holy Spirit and power and who was with him?

    #147742
    georg
    Participant

    I said this before the Catholic Church does not Baptize according to Scripture. Therefore that person does not have Gods Holy Spirit.  Without Gods Holy Spirit one cannot understand the things of God.  No matter how you slice it..
    Maria worship, the Mass, indulgences, the trinity are all false doctrine, kept by the Catholic Church.  Come out of Her my People Rev. 18:4 says.  So why not heed and get out.
    Peace and Love Irene

    #147743
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Quote (CatholicApologist @ Sep. 28 2009,16:22)
    t8 wrote:

    Quote
    Jesus may have YHWH's name in him, but so do many others.

    This is your pet doctrine that you or someone concocted to explain away the passages of Scripture that clearly point to Jesus as YHWH.

    Yet when you look at these passages, you have to READ INTO the text that YHWH's name was merely in Him…and come out believing that he is not Him.  That's called eisegesis.

    But very characteristic of you.


    Not my pet doctrine.

    My pet doctrine is that Jesus of Nazareth is the Christ and the son of the living God.

    I know that the gates of hell will not prevail against this truth, and I also know that the enemy will try anything to prevail against it. He even tries to get people to believe another doctrine that says Jesus is God, instead of believing and teaching that he is the son of that God.

    So when I refute the Trinity, I am not preaching my pet doctrine I am doing something along the lines of what is written in Titus 1:9
    He must hold firmly to the trustworthy message as it has been taught, so that he can encourage others by sound doctrine and refute those who oppose it

    #147746
    KangarooJack
    Participant

    Quote (t8 @ Sep. 28 2009,09:20)

    Quote (thethinker @ Sep. 28 2009,00:14)

    Quote (t8 @ Sep. 27 2009,21:09)
    Thinker.

    Playing with words cannot make something wrong, right.

    In the New Testament, it is written that there is ONE Lord, the Lord Jesus Christ. And there is one God, the Father.

    I believe this and you do not.

    Argue with Paul about it. He wrote it not me. I can't be blamed for what Paul wrote.

    You know that the words Spirit, Father, God, (and I am sure many others) are used of God, but also others. Angels are called spirits, Abraham was a father, Jesus said to some “you are gods”.

    Get over it. Trying to make Abraham the Father or an Angel the Spirit is wrong. Same with trying to make Jesus YHWH.

    Jesus may have YHWH's name in him, but so do many others.

    It is normal to have a name that means God's grace, or God is good, or something like that. It is not meant to be taken that a person with a name which references God means that he is God.

    Simple stuff thinker. I think you need a name change. I don't believe that you really think things through at all. Just a bias and you go from there.


    t8,
    Please analyze what you wrote above. You admit that the name “YHWH” and “God” may be shared by others but only Jesus is Lord (kurios). This implies that the name “Lord” or “kurios” is a higher name if Jesus alone has it.

    So it is you who argues with Paul for He said that the name “Lord” (kurios) in reference to Jesus is ABOVE every other name. You have substantiated this by admitting that “YHWH” and “God” may be shared while Christ alone is “Lord.”

    thinker


    I am saying that there are many gods and many lords, but for US, there is one God the father and one lord, the Lord Jesus Christ.

    Think of it like this. Pharaoh made Joseph lord over his kingdom.
    Josephs power was above all, but he was still subject to the Pharaoh.

    Joseph being lord over the Pharaoh's kingdom took nothing away from the Pharaoh himself. Joseph was his right-hand man.


    So you deny that the Father has exalted Jesus and has installed Him as God on the throne?

    “But to the Son He says, Your throne O God is forever and ever, and righteousness will be the scepter of YOUR kingdom.”

    You say that the Father is your God. Yet you reject that He has installed His Christ as God on the throne.

    WJ has effectively disrproved you. You claim that there is only one true God at the same time acknowledging that Christ is also a true God. If there is only one true God then Christ would be a false God.

    Your confusion is the result of failing to see that Christ's Father has installed Christ as God on the throne since then. If the Father is your God as you claim then accept it.

    Joseph and Pharoah are not analogous to Christs session at the Father's right. Sorry.

    thinker

    #147750

    Quote (thethinker @ Sep. 28 2009,05:17)

    Quote (t8 @ Sep. 28 2009,09:20)

    Quote (thethinker @ Sep. 28 2009,00:14)

    Quote (t8 @ Sep. 27 2009,21:09)
    Thinker.

    Playing with words cannot make something wrong, right.

    In the New Testament, it is written that there is ONE Lord, the Lord Jesus Christ. And there is one God, the Father.

    I believe this and you do not.

    Argue with Paul about it. He wrote it not me. I can't be blamed for what Paul wrote.

    You know that the words Spirit, Father, God, (and I am sure many others) are used of God, but also others. Angels are called spirits, Abraham was a father, Jesus said to some “you are gods”.

    Get over it. Trying to make Abraham the Father or an Angel the Spirit is wrong. Same with trying to make Jesus YHWH.

    Jesus may have YHWH's name in him, but so do many others.

    It is normal to have a name that means God's grace, or God is good, or something like that. It is not meant to be taken that a person with a name which references God means that he is God.

    Simple stuff thinker. I think you need a name change. I don't believe that you really think things through at all. Just a bias and you go from there.


    t8,
    Please analyze what you wrote above. You admit that the name “YHWH” and “God” may be shared by others but only Jesus is Lord (kurios). This implies that the name “Lord” or “kurios” is a higher name if Jesus alone has it.

    So it is you who argues with Paul for He said that the name “Lord” (kurios) in reference to Jesus is ABOVE every other name. You have substantiated this by admitting that “YHWH” and “God” may be shared while Christ alone is “Lord.”

    thinker


    I am saying that there are many gods and many lords, but for US, there is one God the father and one lord, the Lord Jesus Christ.

    Think of it like this. Pharaoh made Joseph lord over his kingdom.
    Josephs power was above all, but he was still subject to the Pharaoh.

    Joseph being lord over the Pharaoh's kingdom took nothing away from the Pharaoh himself. Joseph was his right-hand man.


    So you deny that the Father has exalted Jesus and has installed Him as God on the throne?

    “But to the Son He says, Your throne O God is forever and ever, and righteousness will be the scepter of YOUR kingdom.”

    You say that the Father is your God. Yet you reject that He has installed His Christ as God on the throne.

    WJ has effectively disrproved you. You claim that there is only one true God at the same time acknowledging that Christ is also a true God. If there is only one true God then Christ would be a false God.

    Your confusion is the result of failing to see that Christ's Father has installed Chrst as God on the throne since then. If the Father is your God as you claim then accept it.

    Joseph and Pharoah are not analogous to Christs session at the Father's right and. Sorry.

    thinker


    Hi Jack

    True, Joseph is not a good example because Joseph was ruler over all of Egypt by proxy.

    However, Christ is the builder and maker of his house and sits “In the throne” with the Father and is worshipped.

    In the Hebrew faith this would be idolatry. And in fact I believe those who believe that Jesus is not God sitting in God's throne (Heb 1:8), are committing Idolatry for they are creating a false image of the “Image of the invisible God”, which is Jesus who is God made visible.

    The “Right Hand of God” is a metophor of his equality with the Father.

    WJ

    #147752
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    WJ……….Quite wrong , GOD HIMSELF is the ROCK that BUILDS the CHURCH. AS Jesus SAID. “Peter who do you say i am (response) you are the Christ (Anointed ONE) the (SON) of the living GOD, Jesus responds Blessed are you Simon Bar Jonna because flesh and Blood (Jesus was flesh and Blood) has (NOT) revealed this unto you , But my FATHER who is (IN) Heaven has (REVEALED) it unto you, and I say unto you, you are Peter, (another words Jesus knew also who Peter was by that same revelation power), and Upon THIS ROCK I shall build the Church and the gates of Hell shall not prevail against it.  Now who and What was the (ROCK) was It Jesus (NO) was It Peter (NO) It was the POWER of GOD to get inside a persons MINDS and REVEAL the TRUTH TO. That is the ROCK that Jesus was going to use to Build the Church with. It WAS GOD HIMSELF. How simple and clear can it GET GOD the FATHER is the (ONLY) true ROCK>  IMO

    gene

    #147753
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    WJ…..Why can't you TRINITARIANS even get the simple thing right , what is blocking your understandings< O what a tangled wed we weave when we first practice to deceive. Sad Part is that your not even aware of It. GOD HELP US ALL!

    LOVE AND PEACE ……………..GENE

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