John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 2,921 through 2,940 (of 26,009 total)
  • Author
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  • #146711
    georg
    Participant

    Quote (thethinker @ Sep. 21 2009,11:31)

    Quote (georg @ Sep. 21 2009,10:46)

    Quote (thethinker @ Sep. 21 2009,06:09)
    Irene said:

    Quote
    thinker I don't like anybody that jump's to conclusion on what I believe. And calling me a liar, is judgeing me.   Also I have not denied Jesus sitting next to the Father on His Throne, that however does not make Him eqwual with the Father.

    Irene,
    You have said over and over again that Christ's name as God is just a “title” inferring that it doesn't mean anything. Barack Obama has the title of President of the United States. Does Obama's title have meaning or not? Well, he sits in the oval office and officiates as the President. This means that he IS the President.

    The Father exalted Jesus Christ to the throne and then called Him “GOD.” This means that His title as God has meaning. He officiates as God from the throne. This means that He IS God.

    So when you say that the name “God” in reference to Jesus is just a “title” you really deny that He has been exalted. You give mere lip service to His exaltation. At least Bodhitharta is honest. He comes right out sand says that the verses where Christ is called God are corrupt. He denies that such statements are in the original scriptures. Though he is wrong at least he is honest enough to come right out and say that parts of the Bible have been tampered with.

    But you do a Mexican hat dance and say “Oh, It's just a title.” It was the Father Himself who said that Jesus is God. Yet you deny what the Father said. So how can the Father be your God?

    Don't debate me anymore. I don't care! But be assured that I will continue to post against your silly “title” explanation all your other nonsense.

    thinker


    Jumping to any conclusion of what others belief, He then is a liar.  My Father in Heaven is above all, which I quoted often.
    Ephesians 4:6  
    You to me is a fool, who wants to make others look bad.  And that is a Christian?  Not to me. That verse in Ephesians also proves that there is no ttrinitry.

    :D  :D


    Irene (or is it Georg),
    The “above all” reference to the Father does NOT include Jesus. Paul said that Jesus Christ is “BEFORE ALL” which means the same thing as “above all.” The Father called Jesus “God”. How can God be above God? I am not trying to make you look bad. You're doing a good job of that yourself. The Father has installed His Son as “God” on the throne. Your “title” explanation is down right silly. It's like saying that Barach Obama is President by “title” but is not really the President. ??? See, you don't need me to look bad.

    Why is it that people start out innocent like children believing that words mean what they say? But things happen to some and when they grow older they learn to manipulate words? Return to your former innocence.

    You don't see trinitarians manipulate any scriptures. We believe them ALL.

    thinker


    Really so do you then believe this Scripture? It proves the trinity wrong. Ephesians 4:6 says this:” one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all and in you all. No trinity. I deny nothing. Jesus is my Savior. Why would I want to deny Him? No more and this time I mean it. Don't expect any more answeres from me. Also
    John 17:5 ” And now O Father glorify Me together with Yourself with the glory I had with You before the World was.”
    You see Jesus was with the Father before all was created, He is the firstborn of all creation. Col. 1:15-17 and Rev. 3:14 look it up, if you don't believe me.
    Irene

    #146716
    KangarooJack
    Participant

    Irene said:

    Quote
    Really  so do you then believe this Scripture?  It proves the trinity wrong.                                                      Ephesians 4:6 says this:” one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all and in you all. No trinity. I deny nothing.  Jesus is my Savior.  Why would I want to deny Him?  No more and this time I mean it.  Don't expect any more answeres from me.  Also
    John 17:5 ” And now O Father glorify Me together with Yourself with the glory I had with You before the World was.”
    You see Jesus was with the Father before all was created, He is the firstborn of all creation.  Col. 1:15-17 and Rev. 3:14 look it up, if you don't believe me.
    Irene


    I thought you were not going to debate me? Explain HOW the scriptures you give prove the trinity wrong. Paul said that Christ is “all in all.” This does not take away from the Father. So the Father's being “above all” does not take away from Christ.

    thinker

    #146718
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi TT,
    Of course scripture says God is the head of Christ.
    What can this mean?

    #146719
    georg
    Participant

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 21 2009,11:04)
    Hi Georg,
    Are you calling others liars and fools or is just a language issue or misunderstanding?


    It was a matter of speaking because of what the thinker said to me. He said that I deny Jesus. Which I never do. I said that in John 1:1 when it says God, that God is a title. And please notice that it is Irene who is writing this. Again we had to use another users name, to be able to post. I have no idea why that is.
    My Husbands name is Georg. It is a German name and not George. He should have capitalized Georg though. One more thing, others get so frustrated with the way the thinker writes things that they stop posting to Him. And I am following suit. I had enough of his accusation. I don't need that at my age.
    Peace and Love Irene

    #146728

    yohanan
    i spoke not from myself, but the father who sent me, has given me a command, what i should say and what i should speak and i know the his command is ever leasting life, therefore whatever i speak as the father has said to me, so i speak
    12.49-50

    #146730

    father forgive them for they know not what they do

    luke 23.34

    #146731
    georg
    Participant

    Quote (princess of the king @ Sep. 21 2009,13:54)
    yohanan
    i spoke not from myself, but the father who sent me, has given me a command, what i should say and what i should speak and i know the his command is ever leasting life, therefore whatever i speak as the father has said to me, so i speak
    12.49-50


    What is yohanan?
    Irene

    #146749
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Quote (thethinker @ Sep. 19 2009,11:21)
    Regardless, t8's view that the word “God” in 1:1c should be taken qualitatively does no harm to trinitarianism at all,


    You show your ignorance here.

    Trinitarians beleive that Jesus is God in identity, therefore saying that the Word Was God himself, is actually saying that Jesus is God.

    If Jesus is a divine being who was born of God, then he would rightly be an image of God, and you could say that the fullness if God dwells in him. In other words he has divine nature.

    Divine nature and Spirit comes from God, the Father. He is the source of both.

    Add that to the fact that we will be like Jesus and he will call us brothers, and I think the picture starts to emerge. That picture is certainly not a God that is 3 persons, but one God who shares his nature. A God who has children/sons.

    #146753
    georg
    Participant

    In Col. 1:15-17 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.'
    verse 16 Foe by Him aLL things were created that are in Heaven and that are
    on earth………
    verse 17 He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.
    When you read on in verse 17 He also was the firstborn of the dead, so in all things He has preeminence.
    He was first in all.
    Rev. 3:14…” These things says the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, the beginning of the creation of God.”
    And in John 17:5 Jesus says this to His Father:” And now O Father glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory I had with You before the world was.”
    Jesus emptied Himself and became a Servant and die for our sins. What a great God and Savior we have. To send His Son into the world that through Him all might be saved.
    I also remembered something. When God is use in Scripture I said tha God is a title, is because the translators stood in AW of Jehovah and did not want to misspell His name and used God instead.
    I just don't remember were I read that.
    Peace and Love Irene

    #146754
    georg
    Participant

    Thank you t8 for all you do for us.  I really enjoy this website.  It gives me the opertunity to go deeper into Gods Word the Bible, and fellowship with those that are nice.  I have learned so much. Others challenge me too.   God is indeed a God of Love.  He has shown me so many things.  And it has to be Gods Holy Spirit in us, to understand the things of God.  For that I am forever thankful for.
    Peace and Love Irene
    :) :)

    #146764
    KangarooJack
    Participant

    Quote (t8 @ Sep. 21 2009,20:50)

    Quote (thethinker @ Sep. 19 2009,11:21)
    Regardless, t8's view that the word “God” in 1:1c should be taken qualitatively does no harm to trinitarianism at all,


    You show your ignorance here.

    Trinitarians beleive that Jesus is God in identity, therefore saying that the Word Was God himself, is actually saying that Jesus is God.

    If Jesus is a divine being who was born of God, then he would rightly be an image of God, and you could say that the fullness if God dwells in him. In other words he has divine nature.

    Divine nature and Spirit comes from God, the Father. He is the source of both.

    Add that to the fact that we will be like Jesus and he will call us brothers, and I think the picture starts to emerge. That picture is certainly not a God that is 3 persons, but one God who shares his nature. A God who has children/sons.


    I am totally aware what trinitarians believe. Apparently you have not seen my posts in the past inwhich I have stated that I am not a traditional trinitarian. You evaded my point. The reading of “theos” in John 1:1c as qualitative does no harm to trinitarianism.

    What God was the word was. It means that all that God was in form and nature the Word was. The scripture no where says that we will partake of the divine form. It says that we are partakers of the divine nature which has to do with the communicable attributes of God such as love, mercy kindness and so forth.

    Again, Christ pre-existed in God's form. No where is it said that men will partake of the divine form. You fail to distinguish between God's incommunicable nature (form) and His communicable nature (character). We are partakers of the divine CHARACTER.

    thinker

    #146793
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi TT,
    Trinitarianism is based on the lie you mentioned.
    No trinity in scripture.

    #146797
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Quote (t8 @ Sep. 21 2009,20:50)

    Quote (thethinker @ Sep. 19 2009,11:21)
    Regardless, t8's view that the word “God” in 1:1c should be taken qualitatively does no harm to trinitarianism at all,


    You show your ignorance here.

    Trinitarians beleive that Jesus is God in identity, therefore saying that the Word Was God himself, is actually saying that Jesus is God.

    If Jesus is a divine being who was born of God, then he would rightly be an image of God, and you could say that the fullness if God dwells in him. In other words he has divine nature.

    Divine nature and Spirit comes from God, the Father. He is the source of both.

    Add that to the fact that we will be like Jesus and he will call us brothers, and I think the picture starts to emerge. That picture is certainly not a God that is 3 persons, but one God who shares his nature. A God who has children/sons.


    T8……….Amen, Amen, brother, you have rightly said this. IMO

    peace and love to you and yours………………gene

    #146799
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Thinker………we are called Brothers of Jesus “for he is the first born of (MANY BROTHERS), and again we are Heirs and (JOINT) Heirs with Jesus. Why do you Trinitarians try so hard to separate Jesus from our LIKENESS, is it because you truly do not believe GOD is capable of perfecting His Children and Giving them His true nature. Or is it because You KNOW GOD IS SEPARATE from all others, and so you can't believe Jesus is a GOD and at the same time believe He is a MAN the same as we ARE, right. The whole Point of GOD taking a ordinary (MAN) and perfecting HIM by (HIS) SPIRIT is to show Us we can (ALSO) be PERFECTED and BECOME EXACTLY LIKE JESUS IS> YOU TRINITARIANS (DESTROY) THIS TRUTH AND WILL BE HELD ACCOUNTABLE FOR IT, unless you repent of you false teachings. IMO

    gene

    #146805
    KangarooJack
    Participant

    Quote (Gene @ Sep. 22 2009,06:47)
    Thinker………we are called Brothers of Jesus “for he is the first born of (MANY BROTHERS), and again we are Heirs and (JOINT) Heirs with Jesus. Why do you Trinitarians try so hard to separate Jesus from our LIKENESS, is it because you truly do not believe GOD is capable of perfecting His Children and Giving them His true nature. Or is it because You KNOW GOD IS SEPARATE from all others, and so you can't believe Jesus is a GOD and at the same time believe He is a MAN  the same as we ARE, right. The whole Point of GOD taking a ordinary (MAN) and perfecting HIM by (HIS) SPIRIT is to show Us we can (ALSO) be PERFECTED and BECOME EXACTLY LIKE JESUS IS> YOU TRINITARIANS (DESTROY) THIS TRUTH AND WILL BE HELD ACCOUNTABLE FOR IT, unless you repent of you false teachings.  IMO

    gene


    Brothers by adoption.

    thinker

    #146821
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Thinker………Another false statement , where does it say we are brothers of Jesus (BY) Adoption, is there no end to you Trinitarians adding you personal opinions contrary to scriptures? The only Place Adoption is mentioned is in relation ship to GOD, and even Jesus was adopted this way, Why, because it is (IMPOSSIBLE) for GOD to recreate another (TRUE) GOD. AS Jesus said (FOR THOU ART THE (ONLY) TRUE GOD> What part of that don't you get thinker?

    gene

    #146825
    Jodi Lee
    Participant

    Adam was the Son of God,

    Lu 3:38 the son of Enos, the son of Seth, the son of Adam, the son of God.

    Adam sinned, he did not have faith in God, he went against God’s instructions, and therefore went from immortality to death.  Adam's flesh saw corruption, he lost the position of having dominion over the earth.

    However it was the Father’s plan from the very beginning that through one man sin and death would come, but with another man righteousness and eternal life would come. Jesus overcame the world it says because he was born of God, to be born of God it says, is to have faith, and Faith is developed through the calling and work of God’s Spirit.

    Ro 8:23 Not only that, but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body.

    Ro 9:4 who are Israelites, to whom pertain the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the service of God, and the promises;

    Ga 4:5 to redeem those who were under the law, that we might receive the adoption as sons.

    1 John 4:7 Beloved, let us love one another, for love is of God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God.

    1Jo 5:1 Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves Him who begot also loves him who is begotten of Him.

    1Jo 5:4 For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world–our faith.

    Romans 8:11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you. 12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors–not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. 14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. 15 For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, “Abba, Father.” 16 The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God,

    Mt 12:50 For whoever does the will of My Father in heaven is My brother and sister and mother.”

    Mr 3:35 For whoever does the will of God is My brother and My sister and mother.”

    Lu 2:40 And the Child grew and became strong in spirit, filled with wisdom; and the grace of God was upon Him.

    Just as we need to grow in the wisdom of God and receive His grace, so did Jesus!

    Ezekiel 36:25 Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols. 26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them. 28 Then you shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; you shall be My people, and I will be your God.

    Matthew 12:18 “Behold! My Servant whom I have chosen, My Beloved in whom My soul is well pleased! I will put My Spirit upon Him, And He will declare justice to the Gentiles.

    We are brothers and sister in Christ, as our Heavenly Father put His Spirit in Jesus, He will do the same for us. We are ALL united in the adoption of God's Spirit.

    #146826
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi Jodi,
    To be a son of God you must be born again from above.[Jn3]
    Come now to Jesus to receive of the fountain of ETERNAL life-God's Spirit.[Jn7]
    Without that water men die when the cord breaks and the bucket falls to the bottom of the well[ecc12]

    #146832
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Quote (thethinker @ Sep. 22 2009,03:48)
    I am totally aware what trinitarians believe. Apparently you have not seen my posts in the past inwhich I have stated that I am not a traditional trinitarian. You evaded my point. The reading of “theos” in John 1:1c as qualitative does no harm to trinitarianism.


    Except that we can partake of divine nature and Jesus said “Ye are theos” to those whom he was speaking to.

    A qualitative use of “theos” is applied to others outside God himself. Scripture testifies to this.

    God in identity is the Father. “Theos/god” qualitatively speaking is used in some instances of men, angels, the son.

    So John 1:1 is not a proof verse for the Trinity if you see the last word as qualitative. If it was, then you would have to add some men and angels into the Trinity and then you wouldn't have a Trinity anymore.

    If you say that the Word was God as in God in identity, then you do so at the expense of God the Father.

    e.g., Obama is the president means that I am not the president because Obama is.
    But I could say that many are presedential, but that there is one president.

    The Word was (the Most High) God, means that the Father is not because the Word is. Therefore a qualitative view is likely when you view it this way. Even some Trinitarian scholars understand this, though not all.

    #146835
    KangarooJack
    Participant

    Quote (Gene @ Sep. 22 2009,09:19)
    Thinker………Another false statement , where does it say we are brothers of Jesus (BY) Adoption, is there no end to you Trinitarians adding you personal opinions contrary to scriptures? The only Place Adoption is mentioned is in relation ship to GOD, and even Jesus was adopted this way, Why, because it is (IMPOSSIBLE) for GOD to recreate another (TRUE) GOD. AS Jesus said (FOR THOU ART THE (ONLY) TRUE GOD> What part of that don't you get thinker?

    gene


    The scripture says several times that Christ is God's begotten Son. It says several times that we are adopted sons. I thought you said that you let words mean what they say?

    thinker

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