John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

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Discussion

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  • #146444
    Proclaimer
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    Quote (thethinker @ Sep. 15 2009,07:30)
    CA,
    I checked it out and it's real good. The owner of this site (t8) believes that “God” in John 1:1c should be understood qualitatively. He thinks that this disproves trinitarianism when actually it establishes the trinitarian doctrine.

    thinker


    John 6:70
    Then Jesus replied, “Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!”

    Was Jesus saying that Judas was:

    1) The Devil/Satan
    2) A devil/demon
    3) Like a devil

    He was saying that one of you has the nature or qualities of a devil, (3).

    There is no definite article assigned to the word “devil”. Likewise John 1:1 is the same. There is no definite article for the last word “theos” as there is in the others instances and as there is in the instances of “Logos”.

    This is significant and shows that having the nature or quality of someone or something doesn't identify you as such, rather it qualifies you.

    #146461

    Quote (t8 @ Sep. 18 2009,14:26)

    Quote (thethinker @ Sep. 15 2009,07:30)
    CA,
    I checked it out and it's real good. The owner of this site (t8) believes that “God” in John 1:1c should be understood qualitatively. He thinks that this disproves trinitarianism when actually it establishes the trinitarian doctrine.

    thinker


    John 6:70
    Then Jesus replied, “Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!”

    Was Jesus saying that Judas was:

    1) The Devil/Satan
    2) A devil/demon
    3) Like a devil

    He was saying that one of you has the nature or qualities of a devil, (3).

    There is no definite article assigned to the word “devil”. Likewise John 1:1 is the same. There is no definite article for the last word “theos” as there is in the others instances and as there is in the instances of “Logos”.

    This is significant and shows that having the nature or quality of someone or something doesn't identify you as such, rather it qualifies you.


    Here you are 2,000 years after the fact. Koine Greek is not your native tongue. Yet you presume to be an authority on it's tenses and meanings. Yet you not only reject the apostles of the first century. You have the gall to reject the fathers of the church who also spoke this language. I don't understand how anyone could be so sure of themselves when so much is at stake.

    #146462

    Quote (t8 @ Sep. 18 2009,14:19)

    Quote (thethinker @ Sep. 18 2009,11:39)
    CA,
    I was not aware that the Catholics were such excellent trinitarian apologists. I am happy to learn that such good apologists are out there.

    thinker


    Thinker,

    They defined the doctrine, so it should be a given that they are best at defending it. It is their foundation and without their foundation, they say that you are not saved.

    Believe it or not, if you hold this doctrine, you are a catholic, albeit perhaps a rebellious one if you do not fellowship at that denomination.

    The Athanasian Creed
    Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the Catholic Faith. Which Faith except everyone do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly. And the Catholic Faith is this, that we worship one God in Trinity and Trinity in Unity. Neither confounding the Persons, nor dividing the Substance. For there is one Person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Ghost. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son and of the Holy Ghost is all One, the Glory Equal, the Majesty Co-Eternal. Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Ghost. The Father Uncreate, the Son Uncreate, and the Holy Ghost Uncreate. The Father Incomprehensible, the Son Incomprehensible, and the Holy Ghost Incomprehensible. The Father Eternal, the Son Eternal, and the Holy Ghost Eternal and yet they are not Three Eternals but One Eternal. As also there are not Three Uncreated, nor Three Incomprehensibles, but One Uncreated, and One Uncomprehensible. So likewise the Father is Almighty, the Son Almighty, and the Holy Ghost Almighty. And yet they are not Three Almighties but One Almighty.
    So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Ghost is God. And yet they are not Three Gods, but One God. So likewise the Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy Ghost Lord. And yet not Three Lords but One Lord. For, like as we are compelled by the Christian verity to acknowledge every Person by Himself to be God and Lord, so are we forbidden by the Catholic Religion to say, there be Three Gods or Three Lords. The Father is made of none, neither created, nor begotten. The Son is of the Father alone; not made, nor created, but begotten. The Holy Ghost is of the Father, and of the Son neither made, nor created, nor begotten, but proceeding.

    So there is One Father, not Three Fathers; one Son, not Three Sons; One Holy Ghost, not Three Holy Ghosts. And in this Trinity none is afore or after Other, None is greater or less than Another, but the whole Three Persons are Co-eternal together, and Co-equal. So that in all things, as is aforesaid, the Unity in Trinity, and the Trinity in Unity, is to be worshipped. He therefore that will be saved, must thus think of the Trinity.

    Furthermore, it is necessary to everlasting Salvation, that he also believe rightly the Incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ. For the right Faith is, that we believe and confess, that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and Man………….


    You would do well to keep in mind that the Catholic/Universal faith was the only Christian faith there was. Thus the title “universal.”

    I find it fascinating that you see how much is at stake and you so cooly sluff off the constant teaching of the Church of Jesus Christ in all places and in all times.

    I think I need a minute….

    #146469
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Quote (CatholicApologist @ Sep. 18 2009,20:00)
    You would do well to keep in mind that the Catholic/Universal faith was the only Christian faith there was.  Thus the title “universal.”  


    The universal/catholic church and the Roman Universal/Catholic church are not the same thing.

    #146472
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Quote (CatholicApologist @ Sep. 18 2009,19:58)
    Here you are 2,000 years after the fact.  Koine Greek is not your native tongue.  Yet you presume to be an authority on it's tenses and meanings.  Yet you not only reject the apostles of the first century.  You have the gall to reject the fathers of the church who also spoke this language.  I don't understand how anyone could be so sure of themselves when so much is at stake.


    It is not your native tongue either. Regardless, we still have the ability to look at the construction of a verse that is easily understood and compare it to similarly constructed verses that are debatable. Scripture is a good judge of scripture. I would rather compare scripture with scripture, than scripture with a man made creed.

    Also what fathers are you talking about?

    Tatian
    And by His simple will the Word sprang forth, and the Word, not coming forth in vain, became the firstbegotten work of the Father .

    Athenagoras
    , I will state briefly that He is the first product of the Father,

    Theophilus of Antioch
    God, then, having His own Word internal within His own bosom, begat him, emitting him along with His own wisdom before all things. He had this Word as a helper in the things that were created by Him, and by him He made all things.

    Irenaeus
    Now, that this God is the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, Paul the apostle also has declared, “There is One God, the Father, who is above all, and through all, and in all.

    These [Apostles] have all declared to us that there is One God, Creator of heaven and earth, announced by the law and the prophets and one Christ the Son of God.

    'Wherefore I do also call upon You, LORD God of Abraham, and God of Isaac, and God of Jacob and Israel [YAHWEH], who is the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,

    Clement of Alexandria
    The Son is the power of God, as being the Father's most ancient Word before the making of all things.

    He is the true only-begotten, the express image of the glory of the Universal King and Almighty Father…. [the only-begotten] the Second Cause.

    Origen
    Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny the divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that God on the one hand is autotheos (God of Himself); and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know You the only true God; “but that all beyond the autotheos (God) is made theos by participation in His divinity, and is not to be called simply “the” theos but rather theos. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with God, and to attract to Himself divinity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos (gods) beside Him,

    It was by the offices of the first-born that they became (gods), for He drew from God in generous measure that they should be made theos gods, and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true God, then, is ho theos (“the god”), and those who are formed after Him are (gods), images, as it were, of Him the prototype

    I am not saying that I agree with everything they said, but they definately had some interesting things to say regarding God and the son that certainly contradict the Trinity doctrine that came after them.

    And this is what Jesus of Nazareth had to say:
    “Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.”

    Jesus said, Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet returned to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them,
    `I am returning to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.

    Paul said this:
    yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.

    one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.

    The Trinity contradicts all of the above.

    #146515

    Quote (t8 @ Sep. 18 2009,22:43)

    Quote (CatholicApologist @ Sep. 18 2009,20:00)
    You would do well to keep in mind that the Catholic/Universal faith was the only Christian faith there was.  Thus the title “universal.”  


    The universal/catholic church and the Roman Universal/Catholic church are not the same thing.


    Roman Catholic Church is NOT a canonical title. It is and has always been the Catholic Church. I'm sorry that your little unicorn fairy dust websites didn't inform you of that.

    The MAIN issue that you cannot refute is that there is and has been only ONE, HOLY, CATHOLIC, and APOSTOLIC CHURCH.

    You can't refute that.

    #146516

    Quote (t8 @ Sep. 18 2009,23:09)


    Quote
    It is not your native tongue either.

    Right. So I take the counsel of the apostles, fathers, doctors, etc. You take YOURSELF.

    Quote
    Regardless, we still have the ability to look at the construction of a verse that is easily understood and compare it to similarly constructed verses that are debatable.

    This is a statement leaning exclusively upon the subjective: “verses that are debatable”. So you have a selected group of verses that YOU think ARE and ARE NOT debatable. Nice try.

    Quote
    Scripture is a good judge of scripture. I would rather compare scripture with scripture, than scripture with a man made creed.

    Scripture is a printed page. It doesn't “judge” anything. It must be interpreted. You are imposing YOUR interpretations upon Scripture and elevating them (you interpretations) to the same level of Scripture.

    But I will grant that good hermeneutics demands that we take into account the whole of Scripture. But when we do so, we must submit in our weakness to the judgment of the apostolic Church. We as individuals are too prone to err. You are class A proof of that.

    Quote
    'Wherefore I do also call upon You, LORD God of Abraham, and God of Isaac, and God of Jacob and Israel [YAHWEH], who is the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,

    When you quote non-Hebrew languages like this your credibility factor goes way down.

    Anyhow, these passages do not deny the Trinity. You just refuse to understand it.

    Also, since I don't trust you. I would need to go and check to make sure you are using historically authentic sources. Sorry. No time now.

    #146520

    Quote (t8 @ Sep. 17 2009,22:26)

    Quote (thethinker @ Sep. 15 2009,07:30)
    CA,
    I checked it out and it's real good. The owner of this site (t8) believes that “God” in John 1:1c should be understood qualitatively. He thinks that this disproves trinitarianism when actually it establishes the trinitarian doctrine.

    thinker


    John 6:70
    Then Jesus replied, “Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!”

    Was Jesus saying that Judas was:

    1) The Devil/Satan
    2) A devil/demon
    3) Like a devil

    He was saying that one of you has the nature or qualities of a devil, (3).

    There is no definite article assigned to the word “devil”. Likewise John 1:1 is the same. There is no definite article for the last word “theos” as there is in the others instances and as there is in the instances of “Logos”.

    This is significant and shows that having the nature or quality of someone or something doesn't identify you as such, rather it qualifies you.


    t8

    Your argument is a straw!

    How about the many times that the Word God is used in referring to the Father without the definite article?

    WJ

    #146535
    KangarooJack
    Participant

    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 19 2009,08:48)

    Quote (t8 @ Sep. 17 2009,22:26)

    Quote (thethinker @ Sep. 15 2009,07:30)
    CA,
    I checked it out and it's real good. The owner of this site (t8) believes that “God” in John 1:1c should be understood qualitatively. He thinks that this disproves trinitarianism when actually it establishes the trinitarian doctrine.

    thinker


    John 6:70
    Then Jesus replied, “Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!”

    Was Jesus saying that Judas was:

    1) The Devil/Satan
    2) A devil/demon
    3) Like a devil

    He was saying that one of you has the nature or qualities of a devil, (3).

    There is no definite article assigned to the word “devil”. Likewise John 1:1 is the same. There is no definite article for the last word “theos” as there is in the others instances and as there is in the instances of “Logos”.

    This is significant and shows that having the nature or quality of someone or something doesn't identify you as such, rather it qualifies you.


    t8

    Your argument is a straw!

    How about the many times that the Word God is used in referring to the Father without the definite article?

    WJ


    An example of the absence of the definite article is in John 1:6 which says this, “There was a man who was sent from God whose name was John.” No definite article is present. So according to Arian Greek we may read it thus, “There was a man who was sent from a god whose name was John.”

    Regardless, t8's view that the word “God” in 1:1c should be taken qualitatively does no harm to trinitarianism at all,

    “And what God was the Word was.”

    thinker

    #146544

    Quote (thethinker @ Sep. 18 2009,19:21)

    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 19 2009,08:48)

    Quote (t8 @ Sep. 17 2009,22:26)

    Quote (thethinker @ Sep. 15 2009,07:30)
    CA,
    I checked it out and it's real good. The owner of this site (t8) believes that “God” in John 1:1c should be understood qualitatively. He thinks that this disproves trinitarianism when actually it establishes the trinitarian doctrine.

    thinker


    John 6:70
    Then Jesus replied, “Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!”

    Was Jesus saying that Judas was:

    1) The Devil/Satan
    2) A devil/demon
    3) Like a devil

    He was saying that one of you has the nature or qualities of a devil, (3).

    There is no definite article assigned to the word “devil”. Likewise John 1:1 is the same. There is no definite article for the last word “theos” as there is in the others instances and as there is in the instances of “Logos”.

    This is significant and shows that having the nature or quality of someone or something doesn't identify you as such, rather it qualifies you.


    t8

    Your argument is a straw!

    How about the many times that the Word God is used in referring to the Father without the definite article?

    WJ


    An example of the absence of the definite article is in John 1:6 which says this, “There was a man who was sent from God whose name was John.” No definite article is present. So according to Arian Greek we may read it thus, “There was a man who was sent from a god whose name was John.”

    Regardless, t8's view that the word “God” in 1:1c should be taken qualitatively does no harm to trinitarianism at all,

    “And what God was the Word was.”

    thinker


    Hi Jack

    True! :D

    WJ

    #146578

    Quote (thethinker @ Sep. 19 2009,11:21)

    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 19 2009,08:48)

    Quote (t8 @ Sep. 17 2009,22:26)

    Quote (thethinker @ Sep. 15 2009,07:30)
    CA,
    I checked it out and it's real good. The owner of this site (t8) believes that “God” in John 1:1c should be understood qualitatively. He thinks that this disproves trinitarianism when actually it establishes the trinitarian doctrine.

    thinker


    John 6:70
    Then Jesus replied, “Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!”

    Was Jesus saying that Judas was:

    1) The Devil/Satan
    2) A devil/demon
    3) Like a devil

    He was saying that one of you has the nature or qualities of a devil, (3).

    There is no definite article assigned to the word “devil”. Likewise John 1:1 is the same. There is no definite article for the last word “theos” as there is in the others instances and as there is in the instances of “Logos”.

    This is significant and shows that having the nature or quality of someone or something doesn't identify you as such, rather it qualifies you.


    t8

    Your argument is a straw!

    How about the many times that the Word God is used in referring to the Father without the definite article?

    WJ


    An example of the absence of the definite article is in John 1:6 which says this, “There was a man who was sent from God whose name was John.” No definite article is present. So according to Arian Greek we may read it thus, “There was a man who was sent from a god whose name was John.”

    Regardless, t8's view that the word “God” in 1:1c should be taken qualitatively does no harm to trinitarianism at all,

    “And what God was the Word was.”

    thinker


    I wonder if t8 has read that appendix from the EOB? I wish there was a good way to paste it in here. I'm not so good with preserving the charts and such from that pdf.

    #146651
    georg
    Participant

    thinker, W.J. and you Catholic! How wrong can you get. Nowhere in the Bible can you find the trinity. John 1:1 the word God is a title, like all Family names are. if you read in
    Ephesians 4:6 it says this
    one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through us all, and in us all.”
    thinker God is the same yesterday today and tomorrow, so don't come me with that was before Jesus went to Heaven.
    By Jesus own words He said this,
    John 14: 28 for my Father is greater then I.
    Deut. 4:35 ” Unto thee it was shewed that thou mightest know, that the LORD He is God; there is none else beside Him.
    Deut. 6:4 ” Hear O Israel; The LORD our God is one LORD.”

    1 Corinth. 8:4 ” And that there is none other God but one.”
    The first Christians did not believe in the trinity.

    Many died by the hands of the Romans, and after almost three century of brutal and blody percecution, it was the Roman emperor Constantine that issued an edit, granting all Christians full freedom to practice their religion. It wa A.D. 313
    However in 321 Constantine issued an edit forbidding work on Sundays. Not only that all Holy Days became all Holidays like Christmas and Easter etc. All were Pagan and still are.
    In 324 Constantine established Christianity as the offical religion of His empire.
    It will become known as the Roman Universal Church.
    Since the Bible was published many who owned one, were tortured and killed by the Catholic Church. Since we are from Germany many Churches still had the effidence in the Basement of the Churches. Only Priests were aloud to have a Bible.
    I know our Catholic does not want to believe so, He must be very young, not like my husband and I (71and 72)
    1 Thess. 5:21 ” Prove all things.” Can you prove the trinity?
    Peace and Love Irene

    #146680
    KangarooJack
    Participant

    Irene said:

    Quote
    thinker God is the same yesterday today and tomorrow, so don't come me with that was before Jesus went to Heaven.
    By Jesus own words He said this,
    John 14: 28 for my Father is greater then I.

    When the Bible says that God cannot change it is referring to His PROMISES. It means that His word cannot fail. Jesus Christ has been exalted to God's right hand. Your denial of this means that you are lost and dead in your trespasses and sins. Jesus said the Father was greater than Him. But after He was exalted the Father called Him “God.”

    Why is it that you don't believe the Father? If He is your God as you claim then why do you call Him a liar? When Jesus says something about the Father you believe it. But when the Father Himself says that Jesus is God you don't believe it.

    You quote the apostles who said that the Father is God. They also said that Jesus is God. Stop picking and choosing the scriptures you will believe. You make yourself your own God when you do this.

    REPENT!

    thinker

    #146681
    georg
    Participant

    Quote (thethinker @ Sep. 20 2009,22:06)
    Irene said:

    Quote
    thinker God is the same yesterday today and tomorrow, so don't come me with that was before Jesus went to Heaven.
    By Jesus own words He said this,
    John 14: 28 for my Father is greater then I.

    When the Bible says that God cannot change it is referring to His PROMISES. It means that His word cannot fail. Jesus Christ has been exalted to God's right hand. Your denial of this means that you are lost and dead in your trespasses and sins. Jesus said the Father was greater than Him. But after He was exalted the Father called Him “God.”

    So what you are saying since Jesus sits on the throne with the Father, He is equal with the Father
    Why is it that you don't believe the Father? If He is your God as you claim then why do you call Him a liar? When Jesus says something about the Father you believe it. But when the Father Himself says that Jesus is God you don't believe it.

    You quote the apostles who said that the Father is God. They also said that Jesus is God. Stop picking and choosing the scriptures you will believe. You make yourself your own God when you do this.

    REPENT!

    thinker


    thinker I don't like anybody that jump's to conclusion on what I believe. And calling me a liar, is judgeing me.   Also I have not denied Jesus sitting next to the Father on His Throne, that however does not make Him eqwual with the Father.  I never said that John 1:1 is wrong.  I did say, that God is A TITLE.  And I will never, never say what you are implying.  Shame on you……Even Hebrew 1:8 God the Father calls Jesus God.   But that does not mean that they are a trinity.,….
    That would be denying all Scriptures that I gave in my last post. Also the Holy Spirit is the Fathers Spirit, and not a Person.  If that would be the case then He would be the Father of Jesus.  And we know, that is not so.

    Math. 15:9 ” But in  vain do they worship Me, teaching the doctrine the commandment of men.”
    You go right on believing men, I will only believe God's Word the Bible.
    Also interpeting what the Bible says that God the Father is the same today and yesterday and tomorrow, again you are interpeting Scripture.  God's Word cannot fail…HMMM.Again Shame on you don't believe that if you believe in the trinity.  It is a manmade doctrine and not from God.
    How can the one that is being exalted ever be equal to the one who exalted Him?
    Now one more thing, and I am saying this because Guests come on here and read this. I will not further engage in a debate with you, you are so set in your way, that you cannot understand and learn what is right.
    Goodbye
    Irene

    #146682
    georg
    Participant

    Quote (CatholicApologist @ Sep. 19 2009,07:36)

    Quote (t8 @ Sep. 18 2009,22:43)

    Quote (CatholicApologist @ Sep. 18 2009,20:00)
    You would do well to keep in mind that the Catholic/Universal faith was the only Christian faith there was.  Thus the title “universal.”  


    The universal/catholic church and the Roman Universal/Catholic church are not the same thing.


    Roman Catholic Church is NOT a canonical title.  It is and has always been the Catholic Church.  I'm sorry that your little unicorn fairy dust websites didn't inform you of that.

    The MAIN issue that you cannot refute is that there is and has been only ONE, HOLY, CATHOLIC, and APOSTOLIC CHURCH.

    You can't refute that.


    And who wants to belong to such Church, that believes in a manmade doctrine. I don't and knowing t8 neither does He.
    Math. 15:9 ” But in vain do they do worship Me, teaching the doctrine the commandments of men.” That is what it is.
    If you know Ancient History you would know what happened then. He even changed the Calender, we go by today. All of God's Holy Days became Holidays. You can find God's Holy Days in Lev. 23 One more thing Holy Catholic Church. It was called the Roman Universal Church. Who ever changed it into the Holy Church will one day be sorry that He or they did. So sad…..that people like you even still believe in it, after reading Scriptures that deny the trinity doctrine. And nobody is Holy except the Father in Heaven, right now. We are all sinners and if we believe not, the truth is not in us, John tells us. Believing that the Pope is the Holy Father here on earth is an abomination to God. And so is the Mass. Jesus was the perfect Sacrifice and no other is needed. Going to the Priest and asking Him for the forgiveness of our sins, is ridicolous to say the least. No Human being can forgive sins, only our Heavenly Father can do that. And we have a Mediator Jesus Christ to go to the Throne of the Father through Jesus and ask for the forgiveness of our Sins.
    Come out of Her my People Rev. tells us. I have, how about you? Or are you so indoctrinated that you can't. I almost think so……
    Irene
    Irene
    :( :( :( [B][/B]

    #146685
    KangarooJack
    Participant

    Irene said:

    Quote
    thinker I don't like anybody that jump's to conclusion on what I believe. And calling me a liar, is judgeing me.   Also I have not denied Jesus sitting next to the Father on His Throne, that however does not make Him eqwual with the Father.

    Irene,
    You have said over and over again that Christ's name as God is just a “title” inferring that it doesn't mean anything. Barack Obama has the title of President of the United States. Does Obama's title have meaning or not? Well, he sits in the oval office and officiates as the President. This means that he IS the President.

    The Father exalted Jesus Christ to the throne and then called Him “GOD.” This means that His title as God has meaning. He officiates as God from the throne. This means that He IS God.

    So when you say that the name “God” in reference to Jesus is just a “title” you really deny that He has been exalted. You give mere lip service to His exaltation. At least Bodhitharta is honest. He comes right out and says that the verses where Christ is called God are corrupt. He denies that such statements are in the original scriptures. Though he is wrong at least he is honest enough to come right out and say that parts of the Bible have been tampered with.

    But you do a Mexican hat dance and say “Oh, It's just a title.” It was the Father Himself who said that Jesus is God. Yet you deny what the Father said. So how can the Father be your God?

    Don't debate me anymore. I don't care! But be assured that I will continue to post against your silly “title” explanation all your other nonsense.

    thinker

    #146687
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi TT,
    So one is always GOD and another is exalted TO BE GOD?
    Two gods?

    #146697
    georg
    Participant

    Quote (thethinker @ Sep. 21 2009,06:09)
    Irene said:

    Quote
    thinker I don't like anybody that jump's to conclusion on what I believe. And calling me a liar, is judgeing me.   Also I have not denied Jesus sitting next to the Father on His Throne, that however does not make Him eqwual with the Father.

    Irene,
    You have said over and over again that Christ's name as God is just a “title” inferring that it doesn't mean anything. Barack Obama has the title of President of the United States. Does Obama's title have meaning or not? Well, he sits in the oval office and officiates as the President. This means that he IS the President.

    The Father exalted Jesus Christ to the throne and then called Him “GOD.” This means that His title as God has meaning. He officiates as God from the throne. This means that He IS God.

    So when you say that the name “God” in reference to Jesus is just a “title” you really deny that He has been exalted. You give mere lip service to His exaltation. At least Bodhitharta is honest. He comes right out sand says that the verses where Christ is called God are corrupt. He denies that such statements are in the original scriptures. Though he is wrong at least he is honest enough to come right out and say that parts of the Bible have been tampered with.

    But you do a Mexican hat dance and say “Oh, It's just a title.” It was the Father Himself who said that Jesus is God. Yet you deny what the Father said. So how can the Father be your God?

    Don't debate me anymore. I don't care! But be assured that I will continue to post against your silly “title” explanation all your other nonsense.

    thinker


    Jumping to any conclusion of what others belief, He then is a liar.  My Father in Heaven is above all, which I quoted often.
    Ephesians 4:6  
    You to me is a fool, who wants to make others look bad.  And that is a Christian?  Not to me. That verse in Ephesians also proves that there is no ttrinitry.

    :D  :D

    #146698
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi Georg,
    Are you calling others liars and fools or is just a language issue or misunderstanding?

    #146703
    KangarooJack
    Participant

    Quote (georg @ Sep. 21 2009,10:46)

    Quote (thethinker @ Sep. 21 2009,06:09)
    Irene said:

    Quote
    thinker I don't like anybody that jump's to conclusion on what I believe. And calling me a liar, is judgeing me.   Also I have not denied Jesus sitting next to the Father on His Throne, that however does not make Him eqwual with the Father.

    Irene,
    You have said over and over again that Christ's name as God is just a “title” inferring that it doesn't mean anything. Barack Obama has the title of President of the United States. Does Obama's title have meaning or not? Well, he sits in the oval office and officiates as the President. This means that he IS the President.

    The Father exalted Jesus Christ to the throne and then called Him “GOD.” This means that His title as God has meaning. He officiates as God from the throne. This means that He IS God.

    So when you say that the name “God” in reference to Jesus is just a “title” you really deny that He has been exalted. You give mere lip service to His exaltation. At least Bodhitharta is honest. He comes right out sand says that the verses where Christ is called God are corrupt. He denies that such statements are in the original scriptures. Though he is wrong at least he is honest enough to come right out and say that parts of the Bible have been tampered with.

    But you do a Mexican hat dance and say “Oh, It's just a title.” It was the Father Himself who said that Jesus is God. Yet you deny what the Father said. So how can the Father be your God?

    Don't debate me anymore. I don't care! But be assured that I will continue to post against your silly “title” explanation all your other nonsense.

    thinker


    Jumping to any conclusion of what others belief, He then is a liar.  My Father in Heaven is above all, which I quoted often.
    Ephesians 4:6  
    You to me is a fool, who wants to make others look bad.  And that is a Christian?  Not to me. That verse in Ephesians also proves that there is no ttrinitry.

    :D  :D


    Irene (or is it Georg),
    The “above all” reference to the Father does NOT include Jesus. Paul said that Jesus Christ is “BEFORE ALL” which means the same thing as “above all.” The Father called Jesus “God”. How can God be above God? I am not trying to make you look bad. You're doing a good job of that yourself. The Father has installed His Son as “God” on the throne. Your “title” explanation is down right silly. It's like saying that Barach Obama is President by “title” but is not really the President. ??? See, you don't need me to look bad.

    Why is it that people start out innocent like children believing that words mean what they say? But things happen to some and when they grow older they learn to manipulate words? Return to your former innocence.

    You don't see trinitarians manipulate any scriptures. We believe them ALL.

    thinker

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