John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 2,861 through 2,880 (of 26,009 total)
  • Author
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  • #139264
    gollamudi
    Participant

    Amen to that post brother Gene.

    #139269
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 26 2009,07:38)

    Quote (thethinker @ July 25 2009,12:46)

    Quote (Gene @ July 26 2009,04:35)
    Thinker………No brother their ONE Shepard , but he is (NOT) the owner of the Sheep , there is only (ONE) owner and that is GOD the Father. The Father has put us in the custody of Jesus, it is very much like the analogy of the vine, the vine is part of the branches, but the life water (spirit) is given by one (the FATHER) and ministers to both the vine and it's branches. Jesus is one of US do not separate Him from yourself, brother. Thinker I implore you by the sure mercies of our GOD and FATHER , COME OUT OF THAT FALSE TRINITARIAN RELIGION, and all these things will fall into place, why should you fail because of those LAIRS.

    with great love and worry and prayer …………………………your brother gene


    Gene,
    He is the owner of the sheep. He explicitly said “MY sheep hear MY voice and I know them and they follow ME. And I give unto them eternal life….”

    You believe falsely! Your view implies that there are two shepherds. Yet you fault trinitarians.

    thinker


    Hi Jack

    How true.

    “But they refused to pay attention; stubbornly they turned their backs and stopped up their ears. Zech 7:11

    they have ears, but cannot hear, nor is there breath in their mouths. Ps 135:17

    WJ


    Hi WJ,
    Where did you ears hear God teach about your trinity god?
    You teach it as if God did, but He did not do so.

    #139304
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Nick………Amen to that!, brother. What i see in these Trinitarian doctrines is the spirit of delusion as GOD said He would send on them who love not the truth. 2 Ths 2……..”for God shall send to them a DELUDING spirit in order for them to believe (THE LIE)”, the lie is Jesus being preached as a GOD. Which He will Abolish at His return as scripture says. Then where will these appear seeing they have preached falsehood, and have have advanced the false way, these IDOLATERS WILL SUFFER THE FATE OF THEIR DOING.

    peace and love to you and yours……………………gene

    #139305
    KangarooJack
    Participant

    Gene said:

    Quote
    thinker……..Jesus said “YOURS THEY ARE and (THOU) givest them unto Me. The same as a owner of Sheep gives (HIS) Sheep into the Hands of a Sheppard to Sheppard them. Jesus said no man (CAN) come unto me EXCEPT the FATHER DRAW HIM. It is the FATHER who owns the Sheep and Jesus Sheppard's them. God the FARTHER said (ALL) Sould are MINE and that includes Jesus' soul also. Why do (ALL Trinitarians try so hard to push the FATHER out of the PICTURE. Interesting, Jesus never did that. Thinker dump the garbage and come out of those false teachings while there is still time brother.

    Gene,
    There you go again selecting the Scriptures you will believe and discarding the passages you don't like. Trinitarians do not push the Father out of the picture. Anti-Christians do not  accept that the Father exalted Jesus. Anti-trinitarians do not like to talk about the exalted Jesus.

    Jesus did NOT say that the sheep ARE the Father's. He said that the sheep WERE the Father's.

    Quote
    6 “I have manifested Your name to the men whom You have given Me out of the world.
    They were Yours, You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word.

    Jesus said that the sheep “WERE” the Father's. The Father GAVE the sheep to Christ. This means that Christ is both Owner and Shepherd.

    Jesus inherited the sheep,

    Quote
    8 Ask of Me, and I will give You
            The nations for Your inheritance,
            And the ends of the earth for Your possession.

    There it is! God gave His people to Christ. He received the sheep as His inheritance. The sheep are His possession. This means that Jesus is the owner. If your father leaves you an inheritance you become the owner. Jesus is both the Owner and the Shepherd of the sheep. The Father cannot take back anything He has given His Son. The Son could give it back willingly. But the Father cannot take it back! The Father is not a man that He should repent. He is under His own oath. You need to think more thoroughly about these things.

    thinker

    #139309

    Hi all

    Those who deny the written words of God to satisfy their own manmade doctrines are of the Spirit of ant-christ.

    Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron; 1 Tim 4:1, 2

    They pick and choose scriptures that suit their manmade doctrines. They “pit” scriptures against themselves rather than letting scriptures interpret themselves.

    Rather than taking the simple reading of the Scriptures they add all kinds of explanations and apologetics to support their false theories.

    For example, John 1:1 says the Word was with God and the Word was God. Verse 14 of the same chapter tells us who the “Word” was. 1 John 1:1-3 and Rev 19:13 confirms this.

    But, of course those who do not take the scriptures literally have to explain it all away.

    Another example is Jesus pre-existence. The simple reading of scriptures with their verb tenses clearly teach Jesus existed before Abraham.

    Jesus with his own words claim that he existed before and came down from heaven.

    For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. John 6:38

    The language here is clear for anyone with an open mind. The entire context of John chapter 6 verifies his meaning, but to make sure we get the point he says…

    [What] and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before? John 6:62

    Jesus says many times he came from the Father and is going back to the Father.

    John 17:5 is very clear to the honest reader.

    And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with “the glory which I had with thee before the world was. John 17:5

    A child can read these words and know that “Jesus came down from heaven” and that “before the foundation of the world” he shared the Fathers Glory.

    But rather than taking the simple meaning of the words as being true, the apologist have to have explanation upon explanation to explain why Jesus did not say what he said.

    They accuse Trinitarians for twisting the scriptures, when it is the Trinitarians that believe the simple reading of the scriptures and do not pit them against themselves but rather believe all of them as they read without a bunch of apologetics.

    For instance John 1:1, 20:28, Acts 20:28, Isa 9:6, Rev 1:8 etc.

    An example of unambiguous scripture that calls Jesus the “Great God and Saviour” is Titus 2:13.

    while we wait for the blessed hope–the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ,

    The GSR plus the context itself is proof that the Trinitarians are right in calling Jesus their Great God and Saviour.

    Jesus said in the last days there would be false teachers and false prophets and if it were possible they could deceive the very elect.

    Scriptures interpret themselves and it would do men good to believe them as they are written.

    WJ

    #139322
    KangarooJack
    Participant

    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 29 2009,05:28)
    Hi all

    Those who deny the written words of God to satisfy their own manmade doctrines are of the Spirit of ant-christ.

    Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron; 1 Tim 4:1, 2

    They pick and choose scriptures that suit their manmade doctrines. They “pit” scriptures against themselves rather than letting scriptures interpret themselves.

    Rather than taking the simple reading of the Scriptures they add all kinds of explanations and apologetics to support their false theories.

    For example, John 1:1 says the Word was with God and the Word was God. Verse 14 of the same chapter tells us who the “Word” was. 1 John 1:1-3 and Rev 19:13 confirms this.

    But, of course those who do not take the scriptures literally have to explain it all away.

    Another example is Jesus pre-existence. The simple reading of scriptures with their verb tenses clearly teach Jesus existed before Abraham.

    Jesus with his own words claim that he existed before and came down from heaven.

    For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. John 6:38

    The language here is clear for anyone with an open mind. The entire context of John chapter 6 verifies his meaning, but to make sure we get the point he says…

    [What] and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before? John 6:62

    Jesus says many times he came from the Father and is going back to the Father.

    John 17:5 is very clear to the honest reader.

    And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with “the glory which I had with thee before the world was. John 17:5

    A child can read these words and know that “Jesus came down from heaven” and that “before the foundation of the world” he shared the Fathers Glory.

    But rather than taking the simple meaning of the words as being true, the apologist have to have explanation upon explanation to explain why Jesus did not say what he said.

    They accuse Trinitarians for twisting the scriptures, when it is the Trinitarians that believe the simple reading of the scriptures and do not pit them against themselves but rather believe all of them as they read without a bunch of apologetics.

    For instance John 1:1, 20:28, Acts 20:28, Isa 9:6, Rev 1:8 etc.

    An example of unambiguous scripture that calls Jesus the “Great God and Saviour” is Titus 2:13.

    while we wait for the blessed hope–the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ,

    The GSR plus the context itself is proof that the Trinitarians are right in calling Jesus their Great God and Saviour.

    Jesus said in the last days there would be false teachers and false prophets and if it were possible they could deceive the very elect.

    Scriptures interpret themselves and it would do men good to believe them as they are written.

    WJ


    WJ,
    Great post bro! Below I reproduce an excerpt from an Islamic website I used yesterday on another thread. Please note the bold lettering:

    Quote
    Some of the biggest misconceptions that many non-Muslims have about Islam have to do with the word “Allah.”  For various reasons, many people have come to believe that Muslims worship a different God than Christians and Jews.  This is totally false, since “Allah” is simply the Arabic word for “God” – and there is only One God.  Let there be no doubt – Muslims worship the God of Noah, Abraham, Moses, David and Jesus – peace be upon them all.  However, it is certainly true that Jews, Christians and Muslims all have different concepts of Almighty God.  For example, Muslims – like Jews – reject the Christian beliefs of the Trinity and the Divine Incarnation.  This, however, does not mean that each of these three religions worships a different God – because, as we have already said, there is only One True God.  Judaism, Christianity and Islam all claim to be “Abrahamic Faiths”, and all of them are also classified as “monotheistic.”  However, Islam teaches that other religions have, in one way or another, distorted and nullified a pure and proper belief in Almighty God by neglecting His true teachings and mixing them with man-made ideas.

    Please note that Muslims correctly acknowledge that the doctrines of the incarnation and the Trinity are “Christian” and that Trinitarians are monotheists. Even bodhitharta has conceded this. This is historically the case. So from now on let the anti-trinitarians here acknowlege this. The doctrines of the incarnation of God and of the Trinity are Christian doctrines. Let the anti-trinitarians dissent all they want. And we appreciate the opportunity provided us here to give a defense for our faith. But be historically accurate.

    The question is not whether Trinitarianism is Christian. It is Christian. The question is this: Are Christians right or wrong.

    thinker

    #139690
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Thinker…………Trinitarians claim to be Christians , but in fact are members of the Apostate Church whose Mother is the Catholic Church, There are only a few (TRUE) “Christians”, who believe in (ONLY) ONE TRUE GOD) and NO other GODS. These are the True followers of Jesus, all others are of PAGAN Origins. Prey Thinker perhaps GOD will remove the Trinity Delusion from you. Its certainly is my desire for you brother.

    Peace and much love ………………………gene

    #139691

    Quote (Gene @ July 31 2009,11:17)
    Thinker…………Trinitarians claim to be Christians , but in fact are members of the Apostate Church whose Mother is the Catholic Church, There are only a few (TRUE) “Christians”, who believe in (ONLY) ONE TRUE GOD) and NO other GODS. These are the True followers of Jesus, all others are of PAGAN Origins. Prey Thinker perhaps GOD will remove the Trinity Delusion from you. Its certainly is my desire for you brother.

    Peace and much love ………………………gene


    Hi Gene

    If Trinitarians are of the Apostate Church because they believe that God is the Father, Son and Holy Spirit,

    Then you also are Apostate for believing in the Catholic doctrine of the Death and burial and resurection of Jesus!

    Also they believe that Jesus is the Son of God.

    So your whole argument is circular.

    Get real Gene, you are denying scriptures that call Jesus God and you accuse Trinitarians of being Apostate!

    while we wait for the blessed hope–the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, Titus 2:13

    Are you waiting for him Gene because everytime that Paul uses the Word “Appearing” he is refering to Jesus?

    WJ

    #139694
    Jodi Lee
    Participant

    Come on now WJ, Circular?

    While the Apostate Church might have a few things correct, it is the ones that are False that obviously make them the apostate church. Gene does not follow the FALSE beliefs of which makes the RCC the false church. To be apart of the Apostate Church would mean that you are following THOSE beliefs of which MAKE IT the false church.

    #139695

    Quote (Jodi Lee @ July 31 2009,11:50)
    Come on now WJ, Circular?

    While the Apostate Church might have a few things correct, it is the ones that are False that obviously make them the apostate church. Gene does not follow the FALSE beliefs of which makes the RCC the false church. To be apart of the Apostate Church would mean that you are following THOSE beliefs of which MAKE IT the false church.


    Hi Jodi

    Your argument is also circular because saying that something is false does not mean that it is.

    I just posted an unambiguous scripture that supports the truth of the Trinity!

    The Logic that because one holds to a particular doctrine of a false church does not mean that what the false church teaches as truth is always false as I just showed you.

    WJ

    #139696
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    WJ………So now you don't believe Jesus really died either? Jesus said in Rev that He was (DEAD) now you say I am apostate because i agree with Him . Interesting How you vacillate in your Trinitarians teaching . You find ONE scripture that you can bend to mean something it doesn't and neglect Hundreds that show different. This reminds me of a person who is straining out a gnat and swallowing a elephant. Haven't you ever noticed how many scripture the trinity doctrine neglects to establish it false teachings. WJ You say that we are anti-Christs, But John said that those who deny Jesus as coming as a flesh and blood being is anti-Christ . Now lets see who that fits> You as well as the GNOSTIC S all claim that Jesus Is came from the presents of GOD as a incarnated Being of some Kind infact you say He was GOD from GOD, exactly as the gnostic of Johns time were saying. But John say differently He say If we Don't see Jesus as coming (into existence) in the Flesh , that is the Spirit of Ant-Christ.  Interesting seem you and John disagree, on the term for anti-Christ.

    Another thing you say correctly that in the latter days certainly things would occur. But you fail to understand when the latter days started. Let me help you here, How many days are there in a week , seven right now when does the latter days of the week start, after the middle of Wednesday right, then we can say the days past it are the later days of the week , Now GOD has established seven thousand years for His plan on earth, there were two thousand before the flood and two thousand until Christ was born, and His spirit was poured out on Man Kind, (in the latter day I shall pour forth of My spirit saith the Lord on all flesh). The latter days were the days after Jesus even until Now brother. The false teaching of the TRINITY started at the council of Nicia in 325 AD (a latter day teaching) . Think about it WJ.

    Peace and love to you and yours……………………..gene

    #139697
    KangarooJack
    Participant

    Quote (Jodi Lee @ Aug. 01 2009,03:50)
    Come on now WJ, Circular?

    While the Apostate Church might have a few things correct, it is the ones that are False that obviously make them the apostate church. Gene does not follow the FALSE beliefs of which makes the RCC the false church. To be apart of the Apostate Church would mean that you are following THOSE beliefs of which MAKE IT the false church.


    Jodi Lee,
    If you love both God and Jesus then you serve two masters. And Jesus said that one cannot serve two masters for he will love the one and hate the other. If you love God you must hate Jesus. If you love Jesus you must hate God. Which is it for you?

    thinker

    #139698
    KangarooJack
    Participant

    Quote (Gene @ Aug. 01 2009,04:13)
    WJ………So now you don't believe Jesus really died either? Jesus said in Rev that He was (DEAD) now you say I am apostate because i agree with Him . Interesting How you vacillate in your Trinitarians teaching . You find ONE scripture that you can bend to mean something it doesn't and neglect Hundreds that show different. This reminds me of a person who is straining out a gnat and swallowing a elephant. Haven't you ever noticed how many scripture the trinity doctrine neglects to establish it false teachings. WJ You say that we are anti-Christs, But John said that those who deny Jesus as coming as a flesh and blood being is anti-Christ . Now lets see who that fits> You as well as the GNOSTIC S all claim that Jesus Is came from the presents of GOD as a incarnated Being of some Kind infact you say He was GOD from GOD, exactly as the gnostic of Johns time were saying. But John say differently He say If we Don't see Jesus as coming (into existence) in the Flesh , that is the Spirit of Ant-Christ.  Interesting seem you and John disagree, on the term for anti-Christ.

    Another thing you say correctly that in the latter days certainly things would occure. But you fail to understand when the latter days started. Let me help you here, How many days are there in a week , seven right not when idoesthe latter days of the week start, after the middle of wednesday right, then we can say the days past it are the later days of the week , Now GOD has established seven thousand years for His plan on earth, there were two thousand before the flood and two thousand until Christ was born, and His spirit was poured out on Man Kind, (in the latter day I shall pour forth of My spirit saith the Lord on all flesh). The latter days were the days after Jesus even until Now brother. The false teaching of the TRINITY started at the council of Nicia in 325 AD (a latter day teaching) . Think about it WJ.

    Peace and love to you and yours……………………..gene


    Gene,
    Where do you get off accusing people of hanging on to one scripture to the exclusion of others? You are the master! You accept what Jesus said about the “only true God” in reference to the Father. But you deny what John said about Jesus Christ being the “true God and eternal life” (1 John 5:20).

    Take the beam out of your own eye. You have not yet explained John's statement. You ignore it every time I bring it up.

    thinker

    #139701

    Quote (Gene @ July 31 2009,12:13)
    WJ………So now you don't believe Jesus really died either? Jesus said in Rev that He was (DEAD) now you say I am apostate because i agree with Him . Interesting How you vacillate in your Trinitarians teaching . You find ONE scripture that you can bend to mean something it doesn't and neglect Hundreds that show different. This reminds me of a person who is straining out a gnat and swallowing a elephant. Haven't you ever noticed how many scripture the trinity doctrine neglects to establish it false teachings. WJ You say that we are anti-Christs, But John said that those who deny Jesus as coming as a flesh and blood being is anti-Christ . Now lets see who that fits> You as well as the GNOSTIC S all claim that Jesus Is came from the presents of GOD as a incarnated Being of some Kind infact you say He was GOD from GOD, exactly as the gnostic of Johns time were saying. But John say differently He say If we Don't see Jesus as coming (into existence) in the Flesh , that is the Spirit of Ant-Christ.  Interesting seem you and John disagree, on the term for anti-Christ.

    Another thing you say correctly that in the latter days certainly things would occure. But you fail to understand when the latter days started. Let me help you here, How many days are there in a week , seven right not when idoesthe latter days of the week start, after the middle of wednesday right, then we can say the days past it are the later days of the week , Now GOD has established seven thousand years for His plan on earth, there were two thousand before the flood and two thousand until Christ was born, and His spirit was poured out on Man Kind, (in the latter day I shall pour forth of My spirit saith the Lord on all flesh). The latter days were the days after Jesus even until Now brother. The false teaching of the TRINITY started at the council of Nicia in 325 AD (a latter day teaching) . Think about it WJ.

    Peace and love to you and yours……………………..gene


    Gene

    As usual you do not address any of my points or scriptures but just spat of the same ole opologetics.

    Gene it is you who denies that Jesus came in the flesh, for the term does not mean born at all.

    Johns language is speaking in light of his teaching in John chapter 1, and the first three verses of 1 John 1:1-3, 14. The word was with God and the Word was God and the Word was made flesh and tabenacled among us.

    Show us Gene where john says that to deny Jesus birth is to be antichrist! Why use the term “Came in the flesh”? Why not say that “to deny Jesus was born as a man” you are antichrist?

    Its not there is it?

    1 John 1:1-3 sets the tone for the Epistles which also says the Word was with God in the beginning!

    Open your eyes Gene and stop accusing Trinitarians as being Apostate for it is you who denies the scriptures like John 1:1, 20:28 and Titus 2:13 just to mention a few.

    WJ

    #139715
    Jodi Lee
    Participant

    Quote (thethinker @ Aug. 01 2009,04:20)

    Quote (Jodi Lee @ Aug. 01 2009,03:50)
    Come on now WJ, Circular?

    While the Apostate Church might have a few things correct, it is the ones that are False that obviously make them the apostate church. Gene does not follow the FALSE beliefs of which makes the RCC the false church. To be apart of the Apostate Church would mean that you are following THOSE beliefs of which MAKE IT the false church.


    Jodi Lee,
    If you love both God and Jesus then you serve two masters. And Jesus said that one cannot serve two masters for he will love the one and hate the other. If you love God you must hate Jesus. If you love Jesus you must hate God. Which is it for you?

    thinker


    Hi Thinker,

    Interesting perspective! It never ceases to amaze me how people see things so differently.

    Mt 6:24 “No one can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or else he will be loyal to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and mammon.

    Are you trying to use the following scripture as proof that Jesus and the Father are both God?

    Are you trying to say that the above scripture means that I cannot serve both God and Jesus as masters because there can only be ONE master?

    Your thinking has error IMO.

    Jesus is our mediator to the ONE and ONLY TRUE God the Father,which scripture unequivocally states. Jesus is our master not because he himself is God but because His Father MADE him such, according to His will and His purpose, that he would be an example of how a man should follow and worship the ONE TRUE God the Father.

    John 4:23 “But an hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for such people the Father seeks to be His worshipers.

    Joh 17:3 And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.

    Hebrews 1:1 God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, 2 has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds; 3 who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, 4 having become so much better than the angels, as He has by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.

    God is our Master, and He has appointed a man, resurrected from the dead who exists with FLESH and BONE, to be His mediator, thus making Jesus also our master through God. By following Jesus we are following our MASTER God the Father.  

    John 17:24 Father, I desire that they also whom You gave Me may be with Me where I am, that they may behold My glory which You have given Me; for You loved Me before the foundation of the world. 25 O righteous Father! The world has not known You, but I have known You; and these have known that You sent Me. 26 And I have declared to them Your name, and will declare it, that the love with which You loved Me may be in them, and I in them.”

    Thinker you said, “If you love both God and Jesus then you serve two masters. And Jesus said that one cannot serve two masters for he will love the one and hate the other. If you love God you must hate Jesus. If you love Jesus you must hate God. Which is it for you?”

    Jesus said that you cannot serve God and serve mammon. The two masters of which Jesus refers to, that a person must choose between, is that of God and His goodness which is IN Jesus, and that of EVIL.

    The One True God the Father who is our Master appointed us a human master, whom God wants us to follow and love.

    Jesus is not the head master, he follows and does the will of the head master, which is clearly shown to be his Father.  

    John 14:28 The Father is greater than I
    John 10:29  My Father is greater than all
    1 Corinthians 11:3   The head of Christ is God
    1 Corinthians 3:23  Christ is God's
    Matthew 20:23   Not mine to give but my Father
    1 Corinthians 15:24-28   Son himself subject to Father

    By serving Jesus, whom God appointed, and looking to him as a master, I am following the one true Master, God the Father.

    The ONE TRUE God, the Father, sent Jesus into the world that we may come to know the ONE True God better.

    The things which Jesus revealed of the One True God, has made me love the Father all the more.

    Because I know that God is IN Jesus and I see God's work in Jesus, I as well love Jesus.

    #139717
    KangarooJack
    Participant

    Jodi Lee said:

    Quote
    By serving Jesus, whom God appointed, and looking to him as a master, I am following the one true Master, God the Father.

    Jodi lee,
    Exactly! Jesus called this honoring Him EVEN AS the Father is honored. So I rephrase my question. Jesus said that one cannot love and serve two masters [equally]. So who do you love and serve more. God or Jesus?

    thinker

    #139718
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    WJ…….. I Jh 2:18…>”Little Childern, IT IS THE LAST TIME: and as ye have heard that Antichrist, shall come, even now are there many Antichrist; whereby we know that it is the last time.”  There is you answer about the later days. and when did the Spirit of Antichrist start.  Lets continue, 1Jh 2:22….> Who is a (LIAR) but he that denies that Jesus is the (CHRIST) or (anointed one)? He is Antichrist the denies the Father and the SON. (Now check out other translations or read in you margin and look what it say), “He is Antichrist that denies  that Jesus came not in the FLESH , is the proper translation.   But to further prove the point lets go to,  1Jh 4:3,..> And every spirit (intellect) that confesses (NOT) that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is (NOT) of GOD: and this (IS) the spirit (intellect) of Antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even (NOW) already is it in the world.” The Gnostic at the time of John were teaching Jesus was a GOD who was sent from the Pelora a GOD of GODS. Or as you trinitarians say He was Homooussious, GOD from GOD.  Lets go on 2 Jh 1:7 …> For many deceivers are entered into the world (present tense) who confess NOT that Jesus Christ is Come (IN) (into existence) in the Flesh, this is a deceiver and an Antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; how,  (buy Paul in 2Th2) and even (NOW) already it is IN the world., Yes the Gnostic's were Presenting Jesus as a GOD from GOD a False teaching that The Apostate Church adapted as truth in the council of Necia in 325 AD. It is called the Doctrine of the TRINITY. All who teach it shall be rejected in fact they are already because they recieved (NOT) the Love of the TRUTH and GOD has sent to them a Deluding Spirit (INTELLECT) so they (Can) Believe the (LIE) as Paul Said. IMO and what the Scriptures says.

    Peace and love to all who love the truth………gene

    #139725
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Thinker ………your rational is getting worse and worse brother, dump the Trinity Garbage and the Light will start to shine in you brother. IMO

    You know i still love you though and am looking forward when you will come to your senses and turn away from the False teachings of the Trinity, peace and love to you and yours Brother……………………….gene

    #139732
    Jodi Lee
    Participant

    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 01 2009,04:05)

    Quote (Jodi Lee @ July 31 2009,11:50)
    Come on now WJ, Circular?

    While the Apostate Church might have a few things correct, it is the ones that are False that obviously make them the apostate church. Gene does not follow the FALSE beliefs of which makes the RCC the false church. To be apart of the Apostate Church would mean that you are following THOSE beliefs of which MAKE IT the false church.


    Hi Jodi

    Your argument is also circular because saying that something is false does not mean that it is.

    I just posted an unambiguous scripture that supports the truth of the Trinity!

    The Logic that because one holds to a particular doctrine of a false church does not mean that what the false church teaches as truth is always false as I just showed you.

    WJ


    Yes your right just because I say something is false that doesn't mean that it is, I am giving my opinion.

    What you were telling Gene was circular was not. Let me clarify my point.  

    You had said because he believes in certain beliefs that the apostate church believes in, then that makes him apart of the apostate church as well. You were speaking from Genes point that by the way he called you as being apart of the apostate church, then he would then have to call himself apart of the church as well. Were you not trying to make the point that from Genes perspective it comes back to bite him in the butt? According to Genes perspective it's not believing in any doctrine that is the same as the apostate church that makes you part of the apostate church, it's the ones that are FALSE.

    We are speaking here from Genes perspective, which you said was circular, however if you keep to Genes perspective then it's not.  

    Is this your unambiguous scripture you were referring to as proving the trinity?

    while we wait for the blessed hope–the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, Titus 2:13

    This does not show ONE ounce of trinity.

    1Cor. 8:5-7… even as there are many Gods and many Lords, nevertheless for us there is one God, the Father, out of Whom all is, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through Whom all is.

    However the above scripture shows that the Trinity is an absurd and an utter lie.

    and this scripture gives us a clearer understanding as to why Jesus is considered a theos in Titus.

    1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all men–the testimony given in its proper time.

    and as well the following shows us that Jesus is ONLY a theos because OF the ONE and Only True theos, the Father.

    2Peter 1:16 For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty. 17 For he received from God the Father honor and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. 18And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount.”

    We wait for the glorious appearing of our great theos and savior Jesus, of whom does NOT know when he is coming because ONLY the ONE TRUE theos the FATHER knows that.

    Jesus is a great theos and Savior because of the ONE True theos the Father, without the One True theos making Jesus who he is, he would be nothing.    

    According to your trinitarian doctrine

    Titus 2:13 looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,

    Shouldn't the above scripture read, that we are waiting for Jesus who is PART of the great God and Savior?

    Or shouldn't it read, that we are waiting for our great God and Savior to appear, the Father, Son and Holy Spirit?

    #139734
    Jodi Lee
    Participant

    Quote (thethinker @ Aug. 01 2009,05:56)
    Jodi Lee said:

    Quote
    By serving Jesus, whom God appointed, and looking to him as a master, I am following the one true Master, God the Father.

    Jodi lee,
    Exactly! Jesus called this honoring Him EVEN AS the Father is honored. So I rephrase my question. Jesus said that one cannot love and serve two masters [equally]. So who do you love and serve more. God or Jesus?

    thinker


    I love my Creator YHWH ABOVE ALL else, and I love Jesus because God our Father was in him, making him a righteous human being.

    I love YHWH for he is my heavenly Father and I love Yeshua for he is my heavenly brother. I am subject to my brother because our Father gave him authority over HIS eternal Kingdom. My Father is still working this very second with my brother teaching him and preparing him for his coming so that he will be a wise and gracious leader. When he comes I will respect and follow him as I would if he were my Father, because I know my Father is in him guiding him.

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