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@Danny Dabbs,
Does nobody read for comprehension anymore!?!? Is there anyone who will verify what I am saying?? What I am finding is why I walked away from christianity. I began asking questions I was apparently NOT suppose to be asking and at one point was told by a pastor I shouldn’t study so much and pray more. What was he afraid of, me discovering…THE TRUTH!
Isa 53:9 translated from the Hebrew (found on biblehub) when translated says “in his deaths”, I didn’t write this, Isaiah did! The christian interpreters mistranslated the Hebrew text. Even the NET bible admits this plurality seems to be out of place and attributes it as being a “mistake” and “fixes” it to the singular; BIG PROBLEM, the Hebrew text has it in the plural. Will you say that isn’t messing with G-d word?
You can site the JPS verbiage as being the same as the christian’s, but it’s still NOT the original text and it someone’s interpretation.
Isaiah 53 became extremely important to the christian world, just NOT in the first century; it became important later because it “sounded” like the Jesus. It makes one wonder if the story of the Jesus was written around this chapter; not once is Isaiah 53 cited in the gospels.
Interestingly recorded in Contra Celsum, Book I chapter 54, 55, a work by the Church Father Origen of Alexandria, written around 248 CE; chapter 54 has the passage from Isaiah 52:13-53:8 and 55 has the response of “certain Jews, who were reckoned wise men.” Their reply, “that these predictions bore reference to the whole people, regarded as one individual, and as being in a state of dispersion and suffering, in order that many proselytes might be gained, on account of the dispersion of the Jews among numerous heathen nations.” It would seem the third century Jew also believed Isaiah 53 was a reference to the nation as a whole.
Proclaimer, you go on to quote from Mark 4:11-12, except you left out verse 12 where the Jesus says he speaks in parables so the everyone other than the disciples would not perceive or understand and therefore not turn from their wicked ways and repent. How does the Jesus fulfill the last portion of 53:9 where there was “no deceit in his mouth”? I call that being deceitful, how about you?!? Let’s not forget the “violence” the Jesus did!
If the expression “his death” was in the plural, the expression “his grave” would ALSO be in the plural.
How many “graves” can one person be buried in? Why are you shooting the messenger, I’m reading the original text!! The text your OT is based upon! Jump back to 43:10 “Ye are my witnesses, saith the Lord, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.” Is G-d using a plural form of witnesses when referring to the singular servant? Also, has one forgotten, THIS IS POETRY and G-d refers to the nation of Israel in the singular many time throughout the Tanakh. So the grave would be for the individual and the deaths are for the many who were killed because of the brutality of the nations while the Israelite’s were in exile…Isaiah was writing while Israel was in exile because of THEIR SIN AND REBELLION AGAINST G-D!!! Have you read any other chapter in this book other than 53? How do you NOT understand this?!?!!?
Please read the above response to Danny and Proclaimer concerning Origen and the Jewish understanding in the third century of this “suffering servant.”
You still haven’t addressed the facts recorded in the NT of the Jesus being violent and deceitful! So he doesn’t fit this servant being described in 53. You still haven’t identified the pronouns throughout the chapter, who is speaking where; and until you do, you will be lost, dazed, and confused in your understanding of what is written.
Prove me wrong; still waiting!!!
For me Isaiah 53 ist very clear.
The servant was suffering and dying on behalf of Israel’s sin.
Easy and simple.
@Danny,
Of course it’s simple for the christian, they have found a passage that sounds like the Jesus and therefore is the Jesus. If you would have been following what I have been writing from the beginning, you would have found it impossible for this to be about the Jesus. I gave examples from the NT showing how he was violent, was deceptive, was highly desired, and wasn’t “ugly” and therefor doesn’t fit the description of what Isaiah writes about the servant and that’s ignoring the fact the servant has already been identified from the previous chapters.
Your belief this “servant was suffering and dying on behalf of Israel’s sin” is patently false. There is no one who can take on the sins of another, Moses tried and G-d said no. What G-d dis say was the individual is responsible for their own sin and once you acknowledge this, as a christian, it become impossible to remain in the faith. Your belief, the christian belief, is an affront to G-d. The innocent CANNOT take on the judgment of the wicked…PERIOD!!
Amos 3:7 “For the Lord God will not do anything in the world, unless He first revealed His secret to His servants, the prophets.” The words of this prophet destroy the foundation of christianity, because nowhere in the Tanakh does it say G-d was sending a man to die for the sins of man, become a human sacrifice, and be raised from the dead.
No matter how much you “believe” the Jesus fulfills Isa 53, still waiting for vs10 to be explained; the Jesus NEVER fulfilled this passage as he died young and had no biological children.
Now what? Do you double down on what you believe or do you verify it? I chose the path of verification.
Who is this “innocent” figure, this servant? Christianity says it’s the Jesus, but using the words of the NT we find the Jesus ISN’T all that “innocent.” Judaism says it Israel and what’s crazy is we are told who this “servant” is.
But you, Israel, my servant, Jacob, whom I have chosen, the offspring of Abraham, my friend. (Isa 41:8)
Remember these things, O Jacob, and Israel, for you are my servant; I formed you, you are my servant; O Israel, you will not be forgotten by me. (Isa 44:21)
For the sake of my servant Jacob, and Israel my chosen, I call you by your name, I surname you, though you do not know me. (Isa 45:4)
And He said to me, ‘You are my servant, Israel, in whom I will be glorified.’ (Isa 49:3)
You are my witnesses,” declares the Lord, “and my servant whom I have chosen, that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor shall there be any after me. (Isa 43:10) who are the witnesses and G-d’s servant that HE has chosen?
“But now hear, O Jacob my servant, Israel whom I have chosen! (Isa 44:1)
Go out from Babylon, flee from Chaldea, declare this with a shout of joy, proclaim it, send it out to the end of the earth; say, “The Lord has redeemed his servant Jacob!” (Isa 48:20)
There are seven passages stating who the servant is (Jacob and Israel), but when christians get to chapter 53 it suddenly changes to the Jesus?!?! Please explain!
You say Israel isn’t innocent; they obviously were guilty of something as they were in exile; HOWEVER, what is this section speaking of; a guilty Israelite nation needing a human sacrifice or a nation innocent of the abuse they received while in exile? For the christian, the Jewish people aren’t “innocent” and because of their sin, need this human sacrifice. A sacrificial type G-d calls an abomination – when did G-d change?!? A sacrifice that extends beyond the nation of Israel to now include the none Jew according to the NT. One really needs to read all this in the context it was written, the innocence spoken of is from the abuses the Israel received while in exile; they were treated as nothing (disfigured and marred) and then these nations have their eye opened and now they understand what they did was wrong (52:14,15).
Context is important and one must verify everything. Still waiting for you to prove me wrong!
Isa 53:9 translated from the Hebrew (found on biblehub) when translated says “in his deaths”, I didn’t write this, Isaiah did! The christian interpreters mistranslated the Hebrew text. Even the NET bible admits this plurality seems to be out of place and attributes it as being a “mistake” and “fixes” it to the singular; BIG PROBLEM, the Hebrew text has it in the plural. Will you say that isn’t messing with G-d word?
A Hebrew plural does not always mean more than one separate event. Biblical Hebrew can use a plural for emphasis or intensity. So although mōtāw is grammatically plural, it does not necessarily mean the servant literally died several deaths. https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Gesenius%27_Hebrew_Grammar/124._The_Various_Uses_of_the_Plural-form
Also, The Great Isaiah Scroll from Qumran appears to have a different reading at this point, בומתו, which some textual scholars understand as referring to “his tomb” or “his burial” rather than “his deaths”.
Proclaimer, you go on to quote from Mark 4:11-12, except you left out verse 12 where the Jesus says he speaks in parables so the everyone other than the disciples would not perceive or understand and therefore not turn from their wicked ways and repent. How does the Jesus fulfill the last portion of 53:9 where there was “no deceit in his mouth”? I call that being deceitful, how about you?!
No, its about not casting pearls before swine. If you do that, you put those people into judgement because they have been told a precious truth and then trample on it. It is wiser to not tell them such things, and to give them the basic gospel with the hope that they will be able to receive the deeper things of God when they are more mature.
But here is the great thing about a parable. If a hearer seeks for its meaning, then God will reveal it because they are demonstrating a search for truth.
“Seek and you will find.”
The angels for example have no available repentance because they have tasted of the Kingdom of God so to reject that is a great sin. This is even true for humans if they reject such revelation and truth.
“For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.”1 John 2:23 says that whoever denies the Son denies the Father as well.
@Danny,
Not worried, the Jesus didn’t fulfill what was prophesied about The Messiah. Unless you can prove he did.
Did you read Amos 3:7? “Certainly the sovereign LORD does nothing without first revealing his plan to his servants the prophets.” Where is it prophesied in the Tanakh The Messiah was to die for the sins of mankind, be buried and raised up again, return to heaven for an unknown period of time, come back to judge the world, condemn those who don’t believe in him to an eternity of torture, reign for 1000 years for everything to go back to the way it was before his reign, and then conquer his nemesis, Satan. You find that in the Tanakh, then I’ll be worried about denying the Jesus.
But he was wounded 👉for our transgressions,👈
he was bruised for 👉our iniquities:
👉the chastisement of our peace was upon him;👈
and with 👉his stripes we are healed.👈
But He was wounded for our transgressions, He was bruised for our iniquities; the chastisement for our peace was upon Him: Yes, the Messiah was stricken, smitten by God, and afflicted. The prophet explains why. It was for us – for our transgressions…for our iniquities. It was in our place that the Messiah suffered.
Wounded is literally “pierced through.”
Who is the “he”, who is the “our”?
If you can’t identify who these pronouns are, why do you believe what you believe?
Still waiting for how the Jesus fulfilled Isa 53 when he wasn’t “innocent”; he was violent, deceitful, was desired, and he wasn’t so hideous that people avoided him. I have given the passages proving the person described in Isa 53 COULD NOT be the Jesus; yet, you still cling to your idolatry (anything between you and G-d). Talk about stubborn!
Prove the Jesus IS The Messiah!!
ps 22:16
For dogs have compassed1 me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: 👉they pierced my hands and my feet.👈Zech.13:6
And one shall say unto him, What are these wounds in 👉thine hands? 👈Then 👉he shall answer, 👉Those with which👉 I was wounded 👈in the house of 👉my friends.
Prove the Jesus IS The Messiah!!
@DT
THE ENTIRE BIBLE PROVES THAT JESUS IS THE BIBLE’S MESSIAH.
Among other things, 53:5
[3] He was despised and rejected by men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
THIS IS EXACTLY HOW YOU FEEL TOWARD THE MESSIAH, CHRIST JESUS.
- YES, BY REJECTING HIM YOU ARE FULFILLING THE PROPHECY OF ISAIAH.
Ps 22 is a Psalm by David, about David; how do you get the Jesus out of that? Oh vs16 of the king Jimmy sounds like the Jesus so it must be! More parachute theology…
“For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have enclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet.”
What the Hebrew translated says, “For dogs have surrounded me; a congregation of evildoers has encircled me; like a lion, my hands and my feet.”
There is nothing about any hands being “pierced” in the original Hebrew. In fact, because of the odd structure of the Hebrew translation, words were inserted to make the sentence flow better grammatically. Why did king Jimmy, among others, add “pierced” while others say, “they are at…”, “they threaten…”, “they pin…”, “they maul…”? What happened to the “lion” in the king Jimmy (it’s in the Hebrew)? It would seem it was conveniently left out to make it sound like it was the wicked who did the “piercing.” When has anyone heard of a lion piecing anything, they shred their prey. More Jimmy mistranslations!
Zech 13:6?!?!? you better read this verse in context because the passage is about denying one is a prophet. Of course we have the king Jimmy mistranslation again, most translations speak of wounds between their hands (the chest), NOT in their hands. Does the christian really study the words of G-d or simply listen to what they have been told? Sounding more like a cult everyday.
THE ENTIRE BIBLE PROVES THAT JESUS IS THE BIBLE’S MESSIAH.
Still waiting for the evidence. To make a blanket statement as this only proves you can’t! Then to quote Isa 53:5 without explanation again confirms you can’t prove the Jesus is the true Messiah. Who is the “he” or the “we”/the “him” or the “our” of this passages? Again, you will remain silent because you have no idea!
THIS IS EXACTLY HOW YOU FEEL TOWARD THE MESSIAH, CHRIST JESUS.
The Jesus would have to be The Messiah, which he isn’t. Funny statement though!
YES, BY REJECTING HIM YOU ARE FULFILLING THE PROPHECY OF ISAIAH.
I can’t be fulfilling what Isaiah said when the Jesus wasn’t despised or rejected by man, he had a HUGE following! So what exactly am I fulfilling when the chapter isn’t messianic? When will you stop with your parachute theology and read the context that passages are written in? Most of the time that is all one has to do to see the lies of christianity.
When are people going to begin verifying what they have been told is truth?!?
although mōtāw is grammatically plural, it does not necessarily mean the servant literally died several deaths
You are assuming the servant is a singular individual. In that case of course one can only die a single physical death; however, this isn’t about an individual; it’s about a nation – Israel. You then bring in ancient texts, I’m reading the current texts and translating them from the Hebrew and the word is “deaths.” Are you implying the current Hebrew writing of today are wrong?
The word you gave בומתו put into a translator by itself doesn’t have a meaning, what’s the entire phrase?
In my statement of the Jesus being deceitful by speaking in parables so the people couldn’t repent, you reply:
No, its about not casting pearls before swine. If you do that, you put those people into judgment because they have been told a precious truth and then trample on it. It is wiser to not tell them such things, and to give them the basic gospel with the hope that they will be able to receive the deeper things of God.
What kind of nonsense is this!! Did you read Isa 6:9-10? If the Jesus was the true Messiah he would be speaking to turn the nation back to G-d, NOT hiding it from them! “My servant David shall be king over them; and they shall all have one shepherd. They shall follow My ordinances and be careful to observe My statutes.” (Ezekiel 37:24). Besides, the Isaiah passage the Jesus quotes as a “fulfillment” was a commission for Isaiah NOT The Messiah and definitely NOT the Jesus. Does anyone study G-d’s words or verify what they have been told???!?!?
You then quote from the book of an unknown author, a book that should never have been allowed in the NT, a book filled with lies, the book of Hebrews. SIGH!!!
Ps. 22:18 They parted my garments among themselves, and cast lots upon my raiment.
John 19:23] Then the soldiers, when they had crucified Jesus, took his garments, and made four parts, to every soldier a part; and also his coat: now the coat was without seam, woven from the top throughout.
[24] They said therefore among themselves, Let us not rend it, but cast lots for it, whose it shall be: that the scripture might be fulfilled, which saith, They parted my raiment among them, and for my vesture they did cast lots. These things therefore the soldiers did.Blah, blah, blah; the Psalm is about David NOT the Jesus. You believe a lie!
More Parachute theology, drop in on a passage that one thinks is about the Jesus because is sounds like the Jesus. Read the entire chapter and place that single verse into the context it was written and there will be no the Jesus. Besides, Ps 22 isn’t Messianic prophesy; it’s David crying out to the Lord for deliverance from his dangerous enemies, who have surrounded him and threaten his life. Confident that the Lord will intervene, he then vows to thank the Lord publicly for his help and anticipates a time when all people will recognize the Lord’s greatness and worship him.
Do people read anymore; is comprehension a thing of the past?!?!? CONTEXT IS EVERYTHING!!
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