John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 2,661 through 2,680 (of 26,009 total)
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  • #131761
    KangarooJack
    Participant

    Quote (Gene @ May 27 2009,02:31)
    Thinker……Jesus said THOU ART THE (ONLY) TRUE GOD, so it was (NOT) HIM. Do you believe Jesus' own words or NOT, If you do you will believe that there is (ONLY) ONE (TRUE) GOD. The LORD said YOU shall have (NO OTHER) GOD'S besides ME.  He also said (I) am GOD and there is (NO) OTHER. Come out of that TRINITARIAN CONFUSION Brother. IMO

    peace and love……………….gene


    Gene,
    Again you are taking scripture out of context. Here is the passage in context,

    Quote
    And this is eternal life, that they might know you, the only true God and Jesus Christ whom you have sent. I have glorified you on the earth. I have finished the work you gave me to do. And now, O Father, glorify me together with yourself, with the glory I had with you before the world was (John 17:4-5)

    You asked me if I believe Jesus' words? Do you? Do you accept that he was pre-existent? He asked the Father to glorify him with the glory he had with the Father before the world was. Therefore, Jesus was pre-existent. God said that He will not share his glory with another. So if Christ shared glory with the Father before the world was then Christ is not different from God. Please stop with your UNITARIAN CONFUSION.

    thinker

    #131777
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Thinker ………..You can not prove if that Glory was a preplaned Glory that GOD had Planned for Jesus or not.  Believe what Peter said about Jesus, I believe He woud have Known do YOU. He said Jesus was (FOREORDAINED) that means (Fore Planned) to recieve this Glory, but only recieved it after He was GLORIFIED after His resurrection, Jesus Know that was the GLORY given Him from  GOD (the ONLY) GOD Had for HIM all along, in this sense Jesus had foreordained GLORY and He KNOW THAT> Peter fully understood this and said it that way. Yes GOD know all a long He was going to perfect a HUMAN BEING and elevate Him to GLORY. Even we are foreordained for this GLORY, ” What is man that thou art mindful of Him that so kind to him you should be, for thou hast made him (Man) a little lower the the angles for the tasting of death, but Has crowned Him (MAN) with GLORY and POWER, But we do not yet see man Crowned with GLORY, BUT WHAT DO WE SEE, WE see JESUS who was made  lower then the angles for the suffering of death (like us) now crowned with Glory and Honor. This is the same thing GOD is going to give US, I told you before thinker , do not separate you likeness of Jesus. He is simply the prototype of what we are to become, we are called to come to the (FULL MEASURE) of Christ Jesus, not half measure. IMO

    peace and love to you and yours……………………….gene

    #131785
    Cindy
    Participant

    Gene What you are doing with this Scripture is you are interpret so it fits the way you want it to be. thinker is believing the way it is written. He has a glory with the Father before the world was. That is what it says.
    It also goes along with other Scriptures that show us that Jesus was the firstborn of all creation.
    Col. 1:15
    Rev. 3:14
    Proverbs 8:22-30
    Since all these Scriptures say that He was first in all, why is it that you deny it? He also is the firstborn of the dead. So in all things He has preeminence. Meaning first in all.
    Peace and Love Irene

    #131805
    Tim Kraft
    Participant

    Quote (t8 @ Feb. 26 2004,08:55)
    Thought I would bring this post to the front.

    I am still seeking information regarding the Logos and it's meaning.

    Logos is translated as Word, and can mean a thought and/spoke word. Some say expression, even soul.

    Was/is the Logos a person in his own right?
    Was/is the Logos ever once just contained within God?
    Is Jesus still the Logos?


    Hey t8: Here's something you might find interesting. If you look up the words, “thing or things” in the Strongs Exhaustive Concordance for the King James Bible, in the New Testament, they are almost all translated from the word Logos! Almost every time you see the word “thing” it is from “Logos”. Just a thought.”Logos/things” “rhema/a discussion.” Peace, TK

    #131807
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Irene………Show us (ONE) Scripture that says Jesus (PREEXISTED) before He was BORN on EARTH . Wouldn't you think that would have been a very important point that (ALL) the Apostles would have very clearly brought out. And we would not have to be trying to piece Scriptures that do not SPECIFICALLY SAY THAT, in order to make it a doctrine . Come out of the false teaching of the Apostate Church. Not to mention simple logic would tell you that would not be prove anything to us if GOD did do it that way, how could we really relate with Jesus if he was some kind of super being or a demigod, it just doesn't fit for GOD to take an already perfect Being kill him and rebirth Him and then kill him again, it would serve no Point what so ever , we could (NEVER) truly RELATE with Him. The TRINITY, PREEXISTENCE, alone with doctrines about demons and so-called (FREE WILL) salvation are all false teaching of the APOSTATE CHURCH. IMO

    peace and love to you and Gerog………………………gene

    #131808
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Tim Kraft………..Your are right applying the word LOGOS as a (PERSON) instead of its simple meaning is a distortion of scriptures and Just simple logic would tell people that if John 1:1 wanted to mean Jesus John would have just written Jesus' mane in there. All of the changing to mean a person is of the APOSTATE CHURCH, WHICH WE ARE TOLD TO COME OUT OF THOSE FALSE TEACHINGS. John maintained that unless we see Jesus as coming into existence in the flesh we are anti-Christ He even repeated it three times, though one was taken out by Trinitarian Translators at a very important place in the text. But a good Greek translations shows it there. IMO

    peace and love to you and yours………………………gene

    #131810
    Cindy
    Participant

    Gene I just did give you Scriptures that say that He was the firstborn of all creation.
    Col 1:15 read this Scripture. Preexisting means that He was there with God the Father before the world was. If through Him all was created, He had to be there before all, would you not think so? Not only that John 1:1 goes right along with all. He made all it says in verse 3. Again if He made all He had to be there before all . God did not kill Him, He gave up the glory He had with the Father and became a man, for us, to save us from eternal death. Don't you wonder why He knew so much when He went in the Temple and the Pharisees were surprised that He knew so much.
    John 17:5 ” And now O Father glorify Me together with Yourself with the glory which I had with You
    before the world was.
    Rev. 3:14 SAME HERE.

    Gene you are so set in your way and cannot see that Jesus was in the very beginning with the Father, He was His delight.
    Does Gen. not tell you that there were two, when they created men? Let us make men in our image. Us and Our is not the Father alone.
    Please use a little common sense. Preexisting just means that He was there before the world was, nothing else.
    That's all, open your heart and eyes, please. I had to, too not even to long ago.
    Peace and Love Irene
    Why would the Apostle's have to say anything about this.
    Who wrote Ephesians, Paul did.
    Rev. John did. And most of all Jesus said that He had a glory with the Father before the World was. He had that glory and He said I want that glory again, now I am Pyro phrasing here.

    #131816
    KangarooJack
    Participant

    Quote (Gene @ May 27 2009,13:05)
    Thinker ………..You can not prove if that Glory was a preplaned Glory that GOD had Planned for Jesus or not.  Believe what Peter said about Jesus, I believe He woud have Known do YOU. He said Jesus was (FOREORDAINED) that means (Fore Planned) to recieve this Glory, but only recieved it after He was GLORIFIED after His resurrection, Jesus Know that was the GLORY given Him from  GOD (the ONLY) GOD Had for HIM all along, in this sense Jesus had foreordained GLORY and He KNOW THAT> Peter fully understood this and said it that way. Yes GOD know all a long He was going to perfect a HUMAN BEING and elevate Him to GLORY. Even we are foreordained for this GLORY, ” What is man that thou art mindful of Him that so kind to him you should be, for thou hast made him (Man) a little lower the the angles for the tasting of death, but Has crowned Him (MAN) with GLORY and POWER, But we do not yet see man Crowned with GLORY, BUT WHAT DO WE SEE, WE see JESUS who was made  lower then the angles for the suffering of death (like us) now crowned with Glory and Honor. This is the same thing GOD is going to give US, I told you before thinker , do not separate you likeness of Jesus. He is simply the prototype of what we are to become, we are called to come to the (FULL MEASURE) of Christ Jesus, not half measure. IMO

    peace and love to you and yours……………………….gene


    Gene,
    You are explaining it away. Jesus said,

    Quote
    Glorify me with the glory I had together with you BEFORE THE WORLD BEGAN

    Jesus said that He HAD glory with God before the world began. Then He gave up that glory and God glorified Him with the same glory He once had.

    You misunderstand the “measure of Christ” statement. The “perfect man” and the “measure of Christ” has to do with living according to the spirit and not under the law like children. Paul told them to no longer be children but act like the man who has come to the full measure of Christ.

    This is true of us NOW.

    thinker

    #131823
    Cindy
    Participant

    thinker I agree with you, but will they that like Gene and others belief this way? I sure hope that God the Father will open their minds to this. I have said this before and I also just made a post in the preexisting Tread. I did not belief this either when a J.W. told me about it, but God did not leave me in that unbelief and I thank Him for it. Good luck, thinker.
    Peace and Love Irene
    :) :) :)

    #131842
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Quote (thethinker @ May 28 2009,05:49)

    Quote (Gene @ May 27 2009,13:05)
    Thinker ………..You can not prove if that Glory was a preplaned Glory that GOD had Planned for Jesus or not.  Believe what Peter said about Jesus, I believe He woud have Known do YOU. He said Jesus was (FOREORDAINED) that means (Fore Planned) to recieve this Glory, but only recieved it after He was GLORIFIED after His resurrection, Jesus Know that was the GLORY given Him from  GOD (the ONLY) GOD Had for HIM all along, in this sense Jesus had foreordained GLORY and He KNOW THAT> Peter fully understood this and said it that way. Yes GOD know all a long He was going to perfect a HUMAN BEING and elevate Him to GLORY. Even we are foreordained for this GLORY, ” What is man that thou art mindful of Him that so kind to him you should be, for thou hast made him (Man) a little lower the the angles for the tasting of death, but Has crowned Him (MAN) with GLORY and POWER, But we do not yet see man Crowned with GLORY, BUT WHAT DO WE SEE, WE see JESUS who was made  lower then the angles for the suffering of death (like us) now crowned with Glory and Honor. This is the same thing GOD is going to give US, I told you before thinker , do not separate you likeness of Jesus. He is simply the prototype of what we are to become, we are called to come to the (FULL MEASURE) of Christ Jesus, not half measure. IMO

    peace and love to you and yours……………………….gene


    Gene,
    You are explaining it away. Jesus said,

    Quote
    Glorify me with the glory I had together with you BEFORE THE WORLD BEGAN

    Jesus said that He HAD glory with God before the world began. Then He gave up that glory and God glorified Him with the same glory He once had.

    You misunderstand the “measure of Christ” statement. The “perfect man” and the “measure of Christ” has to do with living according to the spirit and not under the law like children. Paul told them to no longer be children but act like the man who has come to the full measure of Christ.

    This is true of us NOW.

    thinker


    Thinker…..This is not explaining it away brother, it is the simple truth. IMO

    peace and love to you brother……………..gene

    #131872
    Cindy
    Participant

    Gene What you might think as truth, could very well be wrong, or are you denying that? We all could
    be wrong.
    Since there are other Scriptures that go along with John 17:5, IMO you need to take a real good
    look at it again. Pray about it.
    Peace and Love Irene

    #131875
    KangarooJack
    Participant

    Gene said:

    Quote
    Thinker…..This is not explaining it away brother, it is the simple truth.

    Gene,
    You are explaining it away. Jesus prayed and asked the Father to glorify Him with the glory He HAD with Him before the world began. You say that when we accept truth we become one with God. Then accept that Christ is pre-existent so you may become one with God.

    thinker

    #131883
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Thinker ……I become one with GOd the same way Jesus became one with Him trhough His SPIRIT, not by a preexistence of any Kind. Even though I could just as easly say what Jesus said ” Farther give me the Glory that i had with you before the world began. After we are all Preordained for the GLORY right, “What is man that thou are so mindful of Him , for thou has created Him lower the the angles (LIKE JESUS) for the tasting of death, but you have crowned Him with (GLORY) and HONOR”. Now thinker could i also say i preexisted, Yes in the Plan and will of GOD. It the same for Jesus as US Brother, do not separate Jesus from your likeness, if you do, you will be non of His. He is One of US brother. IMO

    peace and love to you and yours……………………….gene

    #131891
    KangarooJack
    Participant

    Gene said:

    Quote
    After we are all Preordained for the GLORY right,

    We do not have that glory now, right? Jesus had that glory BEFORE, He gave it up and was glorified again.

    thinker

    #131896
    Cindy
    Participant

    Quote (Gene @ May 29 2009,07:44)
    Thinker ……I become one with God the same way Jesus became one with Him through His SPIRIT, not by a preexistence of any Kind. Even though I could just as easily say what Jesus said ” Farther  give me the Glory that i had with you before the world began. After we are all Preordained for the GLORY right, “What is man that thou are so mindful of Him , for thou has created Him lower the the angles (LIKE JESUS) for the tasting of death, but you have crowned Him with (GLORY) and HONOR”. Now thinker could i also say i preexisted, Yes in the Plan and will of GOD. It the same for Jesus as US Brother, do not separate Jesus from your likeness, if you do, you will be non of His. He is One of US brother. IMO

    peace and love to you and yours……………………….gene


    Gene you said what?  You said this                              Even though I could just as easily say what Jesus said ” Farther  give me the Glory that i had with you before the world began. After we are all Preordained for the GLORY right, “What is man that thou are so mindful of Him , for thou has created Him lower then the angles.

    You could not, because you did not have a glory with God, but Jesus did. You are really denying Scripture.  Why? Preordained does not compare with preexisted.  
    I don't know what else to say to you, except that you are so wrong. That Scripture goes along with others.
    Col. 1:15 and Rev.3:14 and since I have put these Scriptures  up before I will not waste my time. That,s all, so sorry Gene.
    Peace to you, Irene

    #131898
    KangarooJack
    Participant

    Irene said:

    Quote
    Preordained does not compare with preexisted.

    Irene,
    Amen! Jesus' words are so simple a child could understand. And Gene's equation of preordained with pre-existence just makes people scratch their heads in confusion.  

    thinker

    #131913
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Irene…and Thinker……….Peter doesn't agree with the Preexistence of Christ or he would have said He preexisted, in fact no Apostle said Jesus Preexisted his berth here on earth. Wouldn't you think something as important as that would have been very clearly explained in the Gospels, but we only have scripture that can be twisted to mean preexistence, Which the Trinitarians used to give support for their triune GOD ideology. The whole thing of The Trinity and Preexistence only Separates Jesus Likeness and Identity with US, and is a Creation of the Apostate Church. IMO

    peace and love………………………..gene

    #131914
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Irene……..Have you not read where it says for whom He fornew He also predestined to conform unto the Image of His Son. That is a predestined or Foreordained statement. And how about where Jesus said to the Father concerning us (FATHER they were YOURS and thou hast given them to me). Question when were we HIS, in this existence or a previous one.The same applies to Jesus. Why do you not want to see Jesus as ONE of US anyway, have you ever ask youself that question? IMO.

    peace and love………………………..gene

    #131915
    Cindy
    Participant

    Gene  Just because the Apostles did not mention the preexistence of Jesus, does not mean that He was not, that is so ridiculous. No Gene we do not twist Scripture, in fact we only go by the Scripture, while you denying them.
    You don't even explain what they do say. All you do is accuse me of being something I am not. I do not believe in the trinity doctrine or do I belong to a Apostate Church. ( I don't even know what Church that is.)  To say what you did is not even Christian like. Peter does not disagree with it either, does He. Let me add one more Scripture and that is
    John 17:5 ” And now O Father glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was. Unless you want to call Jesus a liar, He does preexist, before He became a man.
    Irene

    #131932
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Irene……..I know you do not believe in the trinity, I don't recall of accusing you of that sis. And you are wrong it is a big deal if Jesus preexisted His Berth as some Kind of Being, which by the way no one seems to be able to identify what was His name and where in scripture is there any activity shown of HIM. Preexistence is simply a doctrine imposed by Trinitarian concepts and Has Nothing to do with the Scriptures, As I said, the Apostle Peter Said it right , Jesus was (foreordained) (BUT) was (MANIFESTED) in our time . That is simply the truth and you or anyone else don't have to add any thing to it.IMO

    peace and love to you and Georg…………………………gene

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