John 1:1

[NickHassan]

Hi not3,
In reply to your suggestion in another thread that we study the meaning of WITH

Hi not3,
jn1
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with [4314] God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with [4314] God.

Number 4314
Transliteration:
pros {pros}
Word Origin:
a strengthened form of 4253
TDNT:
6:720,942
Part of Speech:
prep
Usage in the KJV:
unto 340, to 203, with 43, for 25, against 24, among 20, at 11, not tr 6, misc 53, vr to 1

Total: 726
Definition:
to the advantage of
at, near, by
to, towards, with, with regard to

None of the meanings offered here suggest it means
IN or a PART OF God.

They all speak of in one way or another separateness and relationship.

[gollamudi]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 09 2008,03:30)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Aug. 08 2008,06:24) Hi GB, You have just done exactly what you advised against. You just inserted the word INTELLECT. Nick…..I did not change anything a WORD is the expression of ones intellect, thats how we communicate right, i did not change anything i simple gave its meaning as all words have meaning, or they are just gibberish right, A word Is the expression of ones intellect and you full well know that. Lets not try to be contrary with each other for just the sake of being contrary brother. peace to you…….gene

Hi brother Nick,
Please leave this unnecessary arguments on intellect. Our brother Gene wanted to give different meaning to 'words' as intellect even the human science accept that. If you don't agree I think better leave it. But please don't judge any brother continously.

Thanks and blessings
Adam

[NickHassan]

Hi GM,
Anyone presenting things here as truth but cannot find one scripture to support them is teaching falsehood. As long as they continue to do so, with or without support, they will be challenged for the sake of the lambs. Where do you stand on this?

[gollamudi]

So for every reasoning you want some scripture ?

[NickHassan]

Hi GM,
What we do here is pointless unless we gain mutual understandings from scripture.
Those who are driven to share the opinions of men have many other places they can do this.

[gollamudi]

Without human understanding no scripture can benefit any even in a christian site. Don't be so much religious which may not profit any.

[GeneBalthrop]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Aug. 09 2008,13:54)

Hi GM, Anyone presenting things here as truth but cannot find one scripture to support them is teaching falsehood. As long as they continue to do so, with or without support, they will be challenged for the sake of the lambs. Where do you stand on this?

Nick….lets settle this thing about what a (WORD) is, if it is NOT the expression of ones INTELLECT, then please tell us what a WORD IS.

[NickHassan]

Hi GB,
1 In the beginning was the Word[3056], and the Word[3056] was with God, and the Word [3056]was God.

Number 3056
Transliteration:
logos {log'-os}
Word Origin:
from 3004
TDNT:
4:69,505
Part of Speech:
noun masculine
Usage in the KJV:
word 218, saying 50, account 8, speech 8, Word (Christ) 7, thing 5, not tr 2, misc 32

Total: 330
Definition:
of speech
a word, uttered by a living voice, embodies a conception or idea
what someone has said
a word
the sayings of God
decree, mandate or order
of the moral precepts given by God
Old Testament prophecy given by the prophets
what is declared, a thought, declaration, aphorism, a weighty saying, a dictum, a maxim
discourse
the act of speaking, speech
the faculty of speech, skill and practice in speaking
a kind or style of speaking
a continuous speaking discourse – instruction
doctrine, teaching
anything reported in speech; a narration, narrative
matter under discussion, thing spoken of, affair, a matter in dispute, case, suit at law
the thing spoken of or talked about; event, deed
its use as respect to the MIND alone
reason, the mental faculty of thinking, meditating, reasoning, calculating
account, i.e. regard, consideration
account, i.e. reckoning, score
account, i.e. answer or explanation in reference to judgment
relation, i.e. with whom as judge we stand in relation
reason would
reason, cause, ground
In John, denotes the essential Word of God, Jesus Christ, the personal wisdom and power in union with God, his minister in creation and government of the universe, the cause of all the world's life both physical and ethical, which for the procurement of man's salvation put on human nature in the person of Jesus the Messiah, the second person in the Godhead, and shone forth conspicuously from His words and deeds.

Though REASON appears in the list there are NO examples of such use shown here in scripture.

[GeneBalthrop]

Nick….Please you surely know a WORD is the Expression of ones intellect. Everyone knows that.

It is used as RESPECT to the MIND ALONE.

Reason, the mental facility of thinking, meditating, reasoning, Calculating.

All of these are processes of intellect from which Word are derived. imo

To make Word in John 1:1 appear to say Jesus is to make all kinds of assumptions , one is that John did know how to write the word Jesus there, and the other is to transpose the meaning written to a different common meaning usage of what a word is and turning it into a person. If that what John meant he would just have simple used Jesus in the text.

peace………gene

[NickHassan]

Hi Gb,
Not from Scripture.
But you are convinced we are sure of that.
I do not see a lack in the words John was given by God.

I am sure some folk will eventually accept your ideas.

[gollamudi]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 10 2008,15:05)

Nick….Please you surely know a WORD is the Expression of ones intellect. Everyone knows that. It is used as RESPECT to the MIND ALONE. Reason, the mental facility  of thinking, meditating, reasoning, Calculating. All of these are processes of intellect from which Word are derived. imo To make Word in John 1:1 appear to say Jesus is to make all kinds of assumptions , one is that John did know how to write the word Jesus there, and the other is to transpose the meaning written to a different common meaning usage of what a word is and turning it into a person. If that what John meant he would just have simple used Jesus in the text. peace………gene

Hi brother Gene,
Many are assuming that the 'word' as preexisting Jesus then they are forgetting that the same 'word' was God then they are proving that there were two Gods in the beginning; one the Father and the other Jesus. It is as simple as that.

Peace to you
Adam

[NickHassan]

Hi Gm,
You are not suggesting that the Word who was with God was God Himself are you?
Can God be with Himself?

[gollamudi]

Hi brother,
How many times I have told here that I don't make the 'word' which was in the beginning with God is an attribute of God himself and it is His expression not a separate person from Himself. Please no more questions like whether an attribute will be with a person.

Thanks
Adam

[NickHassan]

Hi GM,
It would be better to let scripture prove itself rather than adding human rationalisations.
Let scripture speak and let every man be silent.

Looking at Jn1.1-2 for provable understandings one part of the verse is repeated in Scripture.

The WORD WAS WITH GOD.

It occurs twice in Jn1 and once in 1Jn1.

So that part is inviolable[2Cor13.1]

So now you need to search for understandings for ther rest of the verse.
Does THE WORD WAS GOD appear anywhere else in scripture?

No.

So we need to try and fit what is not understood with what is known.

[gollamudi]

I think you better see for your self that the same 'word' tabernacled in the person Jesus as the living 'word of God'. I am not rationalising invain but in the light of God's wisdom. I don't see any difference between Jn1 and 1Jn1 because both talk on the 'word of life' which belongs to God Himself not a separate person from Him as you and others make. Please I don't want any further arguments because you don't want to give up your Arain ideas. I am sorry for that I can not make Jesus a god but he is the True image of God because the 'word of life ' became flesh in him. When I see Jesus, I see the full image of True God not anything less than that. he is not small god or begooten god but the Theophany of the One and only God.

Thanks and blessings
Adam

[NickHassan]

Hi GM,
I am surprised you would speak like this.
You seemed to be open to finding truth.

[NickHassan]

Hi ,
So the choice remains.
Can we let scripture speak and interpret itself?

[gollamudi]

Oh! I am really sorry for personalising things. yes we have to allow the scriptures speak themselves.

Thanks and peace to you
Adam

[Proclaimer]

Quote (gollamudi @ Aug. 10 2008,16:57)

Hi brother, How many times I have told here that I don't make the 'word' which was in the beginning with God is an attribute of God himself and it is His expression not a separate person from Himself. Please no more questions like whether an attribute will be with a person. Thanks Adam

The Word was WITH the GOD.

Jesus has a name written on him, “The Word of God”.

Jesus is WITH God now.

Therefore the Word of God is with God now, at his right hand side.

So why not before, especially considering that he is the firstborn of all creation. Not even Adam was the firstborn of all creation.

Also, Jesus is not just a substitute for Adam. In fact God made all things for him and through him.

This is what the scriptures say.

Saying that Jesus is just a man and then putting your trust in a man of flesh is not really what faith is about. It is putting your trust in the firstborn of all creation who fulfilled what Adam did not. Jesus came to destroy the works of the evil one. It doesn't say that he was created to destroy the works of the evil one, but that he came to do that.

Thanks for listening.

[GeneBalthrop]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Aug. 10 2008,17:11)

Hi GM, It would be better to let scripture prove itself rather than adding human rationalisations. Let scripture speak and let every man be silent. Looking at Jn1.1-2 for provable understandings one part of the verse is repeated in Scripture. The WORD WAS WITH GOD. It occurs twice in Jn1 and once in 1Jn1. So that part is inviolable[2Cor13.1] So now you need to search for understandings for ther rest of the verse. Does THE WORD WAS GOD appear anywhere else in scripture? No. So we need to try and fit what is not understood with what is known.

Nick……..So you are saying you choses to ignore scripture then, because it says the word WAS GOD. You say do you find it anywhere else Yet the scriptures are full of places where God spoke His Words, ” For GOD (SPOKE) in times past (THROUGH) the prophets, has in these latter days Spoken to us (THROUGH) a son. Question, who SPOKE?, Its was GOD and what did GOD SPEAK His WORD, And who did He Speak HIS WORDS Through? Jesus said in many scriptures the words He Spoke were not His, But the WORDS of HIM who sent HIM. If I were to send a person to you and say speak to NICK the exact words I amd telling you and He did would you assume that it was the person who i sent WORDS, no you would know it was MY WORDS and Hold me accountable for them no the messenger. It is the same thing with Jesus and the Father, you have to attribute the words of Jesus to the Father because they were HIS WORDS, not Jesus' as he plainly said. This whole concept of making Jesus the WORD is what trinitarians use to prove the trinity , GOD plainly said His words would not return without accomplishing what his purpose for them was. There is ONLY ONE TRUE GOD, and ONE TRUE WORD, And God's words represent HIMSELF, Just as yours and mine do.

peace…………….gene

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