John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

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Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 2,541 through 2,560 (of 26,009 total)
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  • #128150
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    thinker………Nick is right brother, Scripture shows Jesus' Authority is a temporary one, because he turns over rule to GOD the FATHER at the End of HIS reign and becomes subject to the FATHER also, as I Cor 15:28 says.

    love and peace………………gene

    #128206
    Is 1:18
    Participant

    1 Corinthians 15:28

    And when … – In this future time, when this shall be accomplished. This implies that the time has not yet arrived, and that his dominion is now exercised, and that he is carrying forward his plans for the subjugation of all things to God.

    Shall be subdued unto him – Shall be brought under subjection. When all his enemies shall be overcome and destroyed; or when the hearts of the redeemed shall be entirely subject to God. When God' s kingdom shall be fully established over the universe. It shall then be seen that he is Lord of all. In the previous verses he had spoken of the promise that all things should be subjected to God; in this, he speaks of its being actually done.

    Then shall the Son also himself be subject … – It has been proposed to render this, “even then shall the Son,” etc.; implying that he had been all along subject to God; had acted under his authority; and that this subjection would continue even then in a sense similar to that in which it had existed; and that Christ would then continue to exercise a delegated authority over his people and kingdom. See an article “on the duration of Christ' s kingdom,” by Prof. Mills, in Bib. Rep. vol. iii. p. 748ff. But to this interpretation there are objections:

    (1) It is not the obvious interpretation.

    (2) It does not seem to comport with the design and scope of the passage, which most evidently refers to some change, or rendering back of the authority of the Messiah; or to some resumption of authority by the Divinity, or by God as God, in a different sense from what existed under the Messiah.

    (3) Such a statement would be unnecessary and vain. Who could reasonably doubt that the Son would be as much subject to God when all things had been subdued to him as he was before?

    (4) It is not necessary to suppose this in order to reconcile the passage with what is said of the perpetuity of Christ' s kingdom and his eternal reign. That he would reign; that his kingdom would be perpetual, and that it would be unending, was indeed clearly predicted; see II Samuel 7:16; Psalms 45:6; Isaiah 9:6-7; Daniel 2:44; Daniel 7:14; Luke 1:22-23; Hebrews 1:8. But these predictions may be all accomplished on the supposition that the special mediatorial kingdom of the Messiah shall be given up to God, and that he shall be subject to him. For:

    (a)His kingdom will be perpetual, in contradistinction from the kingdoms of this world. They are fluctuating, changing, short in their duration. His shall not cease, and shall continue to the end of time.

    (b)His kingdom shall be perpetual, because those who are brought under the laws of God by him shall remain subject to those laws forever. The sceptre never shall be broken, and the kingdom shall abide to all eternity.

    ÂChrist, the Son of God, in his divine nature, as God, shall never cease to reign.

    As Mediator, he may resign his commission and his special office, having made an atonement, having recovered his people, having protected and guided them to heaven. Yet as one with the Father; as the “Father of the everlasting age” Isaiah 9:6, he shall not cease to reign. The functions of a special office may have been discharged, and delegated power laid down, and that which appropriately belongs to him in virtue of his own nature and relations may be resumed and executed forever; and it shall still be true that the reign of the Son of God, in union, or in oneness with the Father, shall continue forever.

    (5) The interpretation which affirms that the Son shall then be subject to the Father in the sense of laying down his delegated authority, and ceasing to exercise his mediatorial reign, has been the common interpretation of all times. This remark is of value only, because, in the interpretation of plum words, it is not probable that people of all classes and ranks in different ages would err.

    The Son also himself – The term “Son of God” is applied to the Lord Jesus with reference to his human nature, his incarnation by the Holy Spirit, and his resurrection from the dead; see the note on Romans 1:4. (For the evidence of the eternal sonship, see the Supplementary Note on the same passage.) It refers, I apprehend, to that in this place. It does not mean that the second person in the Trinity, as such, should be subject to the first; but it means the Incarnate Son, the Mediator, the man that was born and that was raised from the dead, and to whom this wide dominion had been given, should resign that dominion, and that the government should be re-assumed by the Divinity as God. As man, he shall cease to exercise any distinct dominion. This does not mean, evidently, that the union of the divine and human nature will be dissolved; nor that important purposes may not be answered by that continued union forever; nor that the divine perfections may not shine forth in some glorious way through the man Christ Jesus; but that the purpose of government shall no longer be exercised in that way; the mediatorial kingdom, as such, shall no longer be continued, and power shall be exercised by God as God. The redeemed will still adore their Redeemer as their incarnate God, and dwell upon the remembrance of his work and upon his perfections Revelation 1:5-6; Revelation 5:12; Revelation 11:15; but not as exercising the special power which he now has, and which was needful to effect their redemption.

    That God may be all in all – That God may be supreme; that the Divinity, the Godhead, may rule; and that it may be seen that he is the Sovereign over all the universe. By the word “God” ( ̔ ̀ ho Theos ), Whitby and Hammond, I think correctly, understand the Godhead, the Divine Nature, the Divinity, consisting of the three persons, without respect to any special office or kingdom.

    Barnes Notes
    Source: http://bibletools.org/index.c….s

    #128212
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Isa 1:18…………..given enough words we can make anything out of a simple straightforward scripture brother. My question would be why do Trinitarians have to go to such extreme explanations of there beliefs. To get around simple plain scriptures, that even a child could understand. I have no problem just reading it as it is written. Jesus said “tho art the (ONLY) ONE TRUE GOD”. Isn't that straight forward, does it need pages of explanations. Anyone can force the text with enough words brother.

    peace and love to you and yours brother……………………………….gene

    #128254
    gollamudi
    Participant

    Quote (Gene @ April 21 2009,03:05)
    thinker………Nick is right brother, Scripture shows Jesus' Authority is a temporary one, because he turns over rule to GOD the FATHER at the End of HIS reign and becomes subject to the FATHER also, as  I Cor 15:28 says.

    love and peace………………gene


    Amen to that post brother Gene. Then at that time it will be proved God that alone will be over and through all.

    Love and peace to you
    Adam

    #128259
    Is 1:18
    Participant

    Quote (Gene @ April 21 2009,12:50)
    Isa 1:18…………..given enough words we can make anything out of a simple straightforward scripture brother. My question would be why do Trinitarians have to go to such extreme explanations of there beliefs.


    Hello Gene,
    I would say that there are many scriptures that on the surface seem straightforward in their English rendering but have nuances that are not obvious until the original langauge is examined. Usually when these nuances are brought to the surface insight is gained and we progress in our understanding. English words also have multiple definitions and we need context to determine which is applicable, this is not always simple either, and BTW the word “life” would fall into that category. Some people, myself included, appreciate a thorough exegetical explanation. I agree that commentaries are not the be all and end all, or are indispensible in building an accurate understanding of scripture. But they are useful nonetheless. I frequently quote Barnes and Robertson because I have found them to be reliable and because they are generally respected across the theological spectrum. Aside from this, we actually need teachers to grow in our understanding of the Word. That's exactly what Paul was to all the churches he planted.

    Quote
    To get around simple plain scriptures, that even a child could understand. I have no problem just reading it as it is written.


    I see this notion bandied around a lot on Heaven Net -namely “scripture is so simple even a child could understand it”. I think it's a rediculous view. Yes, many of the messages in scripture are lucid and able to be understood by small children. But analysis of the scriptural texts definately requires an adult's mind. How would your typical 5 year old interpret Hebrews or Revelation? It would be entertaining to find out, but not particularly productive. They just have not developed the cognitive skills to deal with the text. We need to move from milk to meat.

    Quote
    Jesus said “tho art the (ONLY) ONE TRUE GOD”. Isn't that straight forward, does it need pages of explanations. Anyone can force the text with enough words brother.


    This is a quotation of John 17:3 I take it? If this one verse comprised the entirety of data we had on the ontology of Yeshua I might have cause to question my theology. But it does not and you would have to take it out of context to draw the conclusion you have anyway. I am not unfamiliar with this verse Gene, and it's application in trinitarian/antitrinitarian dialogue. In fact I addressed it in the debate I had with t8 (which is yet unfinished!!). I'll be lazy and appeal to that as my answer to you, here's the link:

    https://heavennet.net/cgi-bin….79;st=0

    Blessings
    :)

    #128269
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Isa 1:18………….Thanks for you response, and while I do agree with you that some of the text is harder to understand then other parts are, because there has been some tampering and mistranslations due to language differences and theological influencing over two thousand years. I still believe with GOD'S Spirit the true understanding can be (REVEALED) to a person.  Let me give you an example.

    John 2:23-25……> Now when He was in Jerusalem at the Passover, during the feast, many believed in His name when they saw the signs which He did. But Jesus did not commit Himself to them because he knew all men, and had no need that anyone should testify of man, for he know what was in man.

    Isa 1:18…> do you see what was meet by that statement. Do you see Jesus understood men wanted to praise (Him) a Man, because of what they saw him perform. They did not understand Jesus' life was not about Him, It was about the work of GOD the FATHER  Not the man Jesus, who they wanted to praise and worship and GLORIFY. Thats the way it is with MAN, Man wants to glorify MAN. But there were some who had God”s Spirit guiding them and they recognized what and who Jesus was and who was doing the WORK through Him and who deserved the GLORY, these Jesus committed Himself to brother.  To give glory to Jesus for what the FATHER was doing is to rob GOD The FATHER of His GLORY, this Jesus never did. IMO

    peace and love to you and yours…………………………..gene

    #128301
    NickHassan
    Participant

    HG,
    By the Spirit of God, the Spirit of wisdom and knowledge and discernment, he saw the hearts of men as God does.[1Cor12]

    #128352
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Nick…….That is true , but that not the point i am trying to make here, I am trying to show Isa 1:18 that Jesus recognized what men wanted to do and that was to worship Him as the one doing those things and Glorify HIM, and they did not see the it was GOD the FATHER who was doing them, But the disciples Know that it was GOD doing the works not Jesus Himself. as the people thought , this is the same as trinitarians and Preexistences do, they look at Jesus as the GOD or a demigod or super being who was doing the Works He did, and not seeing the difference. One is a carnal view the other is a Spiritual view. Jesus committed Himself to those who had the Spiritual view.

    Jesus said, He had no need that any Men should testify of (MAN), get it. Jesus was A MAN> He did not need them to testify about HIM. (A MAN)> It was not about the ( Man) Jesus, it is about GOD the FATHER sending His SON to testify about (HIM) GOD.

    love and peace………………………….gene

    #128360
    Is 1:18
    Participant

    Quote (Gene @ April 22 2009,02:48)
    Isa 1:18………….Thanks for you response, and while I do agree with you that some of the text is harder to understand then other parts are, because there has been some tampering and mistranslations due to language differences and theological influencing over two thousand years. I still believe with GOD'S Spirit the true understanding can be (REVEALED) to a person.  Let me give you an example.

    John 2:23-25……> Now when He was in Jerusalem at the Passover, during the feast, many believed in His name when they saw the signs which He did. But Jesus did not commit Himself to them because he knew all men, and had no need that anyone should testify of man, for he know what was in man.

    Isa 1:18…> do you see what was meet by that statement. Do you see Jesus understood men wanted to praise (Him) a Man, because of what they saw him perform. They did not understand Jesus' life was not about Him, It was about the work of GOD the FATHER  Not the man Jesus, who they wanted to praise and worship and GLORIFY. Thats the way it is with MAN, Man wants to glorify MAN. But there were some who had God”s Spirit guiding them and they recognized what and who Jesus was and who was doing the WORK through Him and who deserved the GLORY, these Jesus committed Himself to brother.  To give glory to Jesus for what the FATHER was doing is to rob GOD The FATHER of His GLORY, this Jesus never did. IMO

    peace and love to you and yours…………………………..gene


    This verse is saying that Yeshua acted cautiously so as not to preempt His own premature death. That is all.

    #128365
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi Is 1.18,
    Could the God Who cares for sparrows have let His son die early?

    Matthew 10:29
    ” Are not two sparrows sold for a cent? And yet not one of them will fall to the ground apart from your Father.

    #128368
    KangarooJack
    Participant

    Quote (Gene @ April 21 2009,03:05)
    thinker………Nick is right brother, Scripture shows Jesus' Authority is a temporary one, because he turns over rule to GOD the FATHER at the End of HIS reign and becomes subject to the FATHER also, as  I Cor 15:28 says.

    love and peace………………gene


    Gene,
    But until then Jesus is ALL IN ALL (Colossians 3). We have been over this before.

    thinker

    #128369
    KangarooJack
    Participant

    Is. 1:18 wrote:

    Quote
    That God may be all in all – That God may be supreme; that the Divinity, the Godhead, may rule; and that it may be seen that he is the Sovereign over all the universe. By the word “God” ( ̔ ̀ ho Theos ), Whitby and Hammond, I think correctly, understand the Godhead, the Divine Nature, the Divinity, consisting of the three persons, without respect to any special office or kingdom.

    Barnes Notes
    Source: <a href="http://bibletools.org/index.c&#8230;.s

    ” target=”_blank”>http://bibletools.org/index.c&#8230;.s[/quote]

    Exactly!

    thinker

    #128430
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Isa 1:18…….The context does not agree with you assessment of Jesus not trying to preempt His death Brother. IMO

    peace and love to you and yours…………………………gene

    #129214
    gollamudi
    Participant

    For brother Nick,
    Here is what the different understanding of Jn1:1 & 14 says as you often quote that Jesus was reborn at Jordan;

    “Beloved, we need to properly understand the great mystery which lies hidden in the WORD that was with God. We should not do what some Bible translators and interpreters have done by directly equating the WORD with JESUS. Instead of saying that “the WORD was God”, they are saying that “the WORD was Jesus”. This is one of the many classical traditional interpretations among the Trinitarians. If this is the true interpretation, the Beloved Apostle John would have written it that way. The erroneous interpretation was deduced from the words recorded in John 1:14: “And the Word was made flesh…”. But this verse has no direct reference to the birth of the child Jesus in Bethlehem nor even His conception in Mary's womb; it refers to the WORD being manifested in the life (flesh) of Jesus, in His ministry, right after God incarnated in Him at River Jordan. Remember, Jesus was the Begotten Son of God, not the Eternal Son of God”.

    Source:http://www.propheticrevelation.com/logos1.htm

    Hope this will clarify your understanding.

    Peace to you
    Adam

    #129218
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi GM,
    Bad translation of monogenes.
    But thanks

    #129219
    gollamudi
    Participant

    :D :D :D

    #129229
    theodorej
    Participant

    Quote (Not3in1 @ May 29 2007,07:52)

    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 29 2007,06:42)

    Quote (Not3in1 @ May 29 2007,06:34)
    WJ, so they saw Jesus?


    not3

    I dont know of a scripture that says they “Saw” God!

    I know it says they talked to God! They Heard him walking!

    :)


    Since Jesus is the image of the invisible God [Colossians 1:15], then if anyone at anytime has seen God, then we should expect that they saw the image of the invisible God, the Word, Jesus.
    *********************************
    Above is a quote straight from the website that you offered.

    I'll ask my question again:  “If” Adam and Eve were able to see God in the garden, would it be Jesus that they saw and talked with and not God, himself?  Thanks.


    Greetings Mandy…….Is it possible that term walked with God and spoke to God did not include a physical presense,as for my understanding of the scripture is pretty clear,that No Man can survive the physical presense of God….Moses talked to God and was with God on sinai,however,he was unable to see or touch….

    #129234
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Quote (gollamudi @ April 27 2009,22:01)
    For brother Nick,
    Here is what the different understanding of Jn1:1 & 14 says as you often quote that Jesus was reborn at Jordan;

    “Beloved, we need to properly understand the great mystery which lies hidden in the WORD that was with God. We should not do what some Bible translators and interpreters have done by directly equating the WORD with JESUS. Instead of saying that “the WORD was God”, they are saying that “the WORD was Jesus”. This is one of the many classical traditional interpretations among the Trinitarians. If this is the true interpretation, the Beloved Apostle John would have written it that way. The erroneous interpretation was deduced from the words recorded in John 1:14: “And the Word was made flesh…”. But this verse has no direct reference to the birth of the child Jesus in Bethlehem nor even His conception in Mary's womb; it refers to the WORD being manifested in the life (flesh) of Jesus, in His ministry, right after God incarnated in Him at River Jordan. Remember, Jesus was the Begotten Son of God, not the Eternal Son of God”.

    Source:http://www.propheticrevelation.com/logos1.htm

    Hope this will clarify your understanding.

    Peace to you
    Adam


    Adam……….You have posted it Clear and right brother.

    peace and love to you and yours……………..gene

    #129237
    Cindy
    Participant

    Gen The clear and right to some is not always the right answer. In this case you are both dead wrong.
    I have a question to you both, how do you see when it says:” I came down from heaven.” Or the
    Father send me! Send me from where? The Father is in heaven so He send Him (Jesus) from
    heaven. He was not just in the mind of the Father, He is real, a being. A Spirit being, like His
    Father is. The Bible says that He emptied Himself and became like us, a man, a human being.
    Spirit begot Spirit. Also IMO the Father had to send a being like Yeshua ( Jesus)
    Any human would have sinned and did not qualify. All have fallen short of the glory of God. Only
    that came forth from the Father could qualify. He never sinned and He knew what was at stake.
    Even though He was just like us and was tempted, just like we are.

    What I can't understand why you both can't see this. Is Satan blinding you both? Read W.J. post
    He is right on this one.

    I have tried so many times to show you, I wonder if you don't read all or what.

    Peace and Love to you both, Irene

    #129324
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Georg………Jesus was planned to come from the women seed into the earth from the very beginning He was as Peter said foreordained , He was the one that would come from the women a crush the serpents head. But as Moses said God brought him into existence from His brethren the Israelites, He was a Jew, he came to his own and his own recieved him not. WE could us your same logic with John the baptist, Jeremiah the Prophet, or Cyrus. these were all foreordained but they did not exist till the time of the Prophesied event. Ask yourself what advantage would it be for Jesus to have preexisted , what kind of example would that be for all man kind if a super being who walked perfectly came to earth and walked perfectly what does that show us, how could we ever really relate to him in any real and meaningful way. NO the whole concept of Jesus as a GOD or Preexisting super being or demigod is all part of the mystery religion , that we are told to come out of. IMO Brother

    peace and love to you and Irene……………………………..gene

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