John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 2,241 through 2,260 (of 26,009 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #125453
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 23 2009,06:51)
    G,
    Your reasoning again arrogantly elevates itself against sacred scripture.
    Wake up


    Nick………what does arrogant got to do with it? Please show how i am being Araguaya. It seem you the one being arrogant here not me. imo

    love and peace…………………………………..gene

    #125454
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Quote (Gene @ Mar. 23 2009,04:22)
    To All……….the reason the Seven Spirits (intellects) are before the throne is Because they compose who and what GOD is, Jesus said GOD is SPIRIT, and they that worship Him must worship Him is spirit and truth, God Himself is composed of these Seven Spirits,and they are the (POWERS) that create and go Before the LORD God Himself, throughout the whole earth. These Spirits were hovering over the  waters of the earth in Genesis and created all things in the earth they are under control of (ONE) LORD. He is the LORD OUR GOD. (He Exists with POWERS) Jesus now Has (ALL) Seven Spirits (Intellects in Him also) (EYES) and they are with Power, (HORNS), These Spirit powers effect the WILL of ONE LORD GOD. This is how the Father rules through Jesus and all his servants, By his spirit. Now if the Spirit of Him (LORD) be in you, it will produce in you what it produced in Jesus also.  IMO

    Isa 61:1..> the Spirit of the LORD God is upon me ; because the LORD has Anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty th the captives; and to the opening of the prison to them that are bound.

    Psa 104:30…> Thou sendest forth thy Spirit, they are created: and thou renewest the face of the earth.

    love to you and yours………………………………………gene


    G,
    So God is in front of the throne of God?

    #125457
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Nick………..The SEVEN SPIRITS of GOD or of POWERS are in FRONT of the Throne, And are the powers of one LORD. Hear O Israel the LORD our GOD (power) is ONE LORD. Notice it doesn't say (ONE GOD) Jesus Said in prayer to the FATHER, for thou (the Father) are the (ONLY) (TRUE) GOD (POWERS) The word GOD signifies (POWERS) of a LORD and Not the LORD HIMSELF, but his working Powers. And that is why they are in front of the throne. IMO

    peace and love to you and yours………………………………….gene

    #125460
    NickHassan
    Participant

    G,
    So God has seven spirits that are Him and they are in front of Him?
    Does that make eight?

    #125471
    KangarooJack
    Participant

    Thinker said to Seeking:

    Quote
    You speak as if yours and Gene's theory is not a “mailman” theory too. Do you think that John was permitted to check in and out on the ferry boat from Patmos to the mainland and back everyday?

     

    Seeking replied:

    Quote
    Banishment to an island was a common mode of punishment; and there was a distinction made by this act in favor of those who were thus banished. The more base, low, and vile of criminals were commonly condemned to work in the mines;  the more decent and respectable were banished to some lonely island. See the authorities quoted in Wetstein, “in loco.”

    But John was banished for preaching. Why would the authorities banish him for preaching and then allow him to speak? The Scripture expressly declares he was banished for preaching,

    Quote
    I, John your brother and companion in the tribulation and kingdom and perseverance of jesus Christ, was on the island called Patmos on account of the word of God and on account of the testimony of Jesus Christ (1:9)

    Looks like silencing to me!

    and

    Quote
    When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain on account of the word of God and on account of the testimony which they held (6:9)

    Looks like silencing to me.

    again,

    Quote
    Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded on account of their witness to Jesus and on account of the word of God (20:6)

    Looks like silencing to me.

    Seeking said:

    Quote
    So now, based on your source, we have Paul a model prisioner, respected who very likely did not have the restrictions you imply.

    When you get to heaven try convincing those who were slain and had their heads cut off that they were considered “model prisoners” by the state.  

    Thinker said:

    Quote
    Fact is, we all need a “mailman” theory.

    Seeking replied:

    Quote
    I'll stick with one that has some semblance of reality, thank you!

    Jesus replies to Seeking,

    Quote
    I , Jesus, have sent my angel to testify to you these things in the churches

    John had nothing to do with the distribution of the Revelation. Jesus said, I, Jesus sent my angel….

    You're not helping your cause by ignoring Gene's outrageous idea that God is 8 in 1.

    thinker

    #125474
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 23 2009,09:20)
    G,
    So God has seven spirits that are Him and they are in front of Him?
    Does that make eight?


    Nick………The LORD, who is (ONE) controls the seven Spirits or Powers and these seven make one unit of Power called GOD or POWERS or ELOHIM of ONE LORD. These Powers are before His throne as Scripture says. Why do you think Jesus did not say for thou art ONE GOD. No He said the LORD our GOD is ONE LORD, NOT GOD. Why did Jesus not say one LORD and ONE GOD.
    Let me paraphrase it for you . Hear O Israel the LORD our POWER is ONE LORD> Why did He not say one GOD, it is because there are many GODS or powers as Jesus said (know you not you are GODS) Explain this to us if you can.

    peace and love to you and yours……………………………..gene

    #125475
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi tt,
    You say
    “John had nothing to do with the distribution of the Revelation. Jesus said, I, Jesus sent my angel….”

    Interesting.
    Rev1 says
    1The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John

    Nothing about distribution in there.

    Should we presume?

    #125482
    SEEKING
    Participant

    thinker[/quote]

    Quote
    But John was banished for preaching. Why would the authorities banish him for preaching and then allow him to speak? The Scripture expressly declares he was banished for preaching,

    Quote
    , John your brother and companion in the tribulation and kingdom and perseverance of jesus Christ, was on the island called Patmos on account of the word of God and on account of the testimony of Jesus Christ (1:9)

    Where does the scripture you posted mention banishing?
    Where does the scripture “expressly declare” he was banished for preachig?  Just continue to ignore the text and express your opinion as fact.

    Quote
    Looks like silencing to me!

    Poor reading comprehension.

    Quote
    When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain on account of the word of God and on account of the testimony which they held (6:9)

    Looks like silencing to me.

    Do you mean to imply John was a part of the group spoken of?  Try getting real for just a moment.

    Quote
    When you get to heaven try convincing those who were slain and had their heads cut off that they were considered “model prisoners” by the state

    Again, get real!  We are speaking of John's current situation in the text.  It would be about as dumb for me to say, try convincing those who received their dead back by resurrection
    that they were suffering heavy persecution. (Heb.11)
     

    Quote

    Quote
    I , Jesus, have sent my angel to testify to you these things in the churches

    John had nothing to do with the distribution of the Revelation. Jesus said, I, Jesus sent my angel….

    You are quite the text manipulator! :angry:  I , Jesus, have sent my angel to testify to you these things in the churches

    The angel testified to John, and the text  you cite proves nothing about distribution thus your statement, “John had nothing to do with the distribution of the Revelation. ” is totally unfounded.  It is ludicrous! He wrote the letter.  He wrote it at the command of Jesus – Rev 1:19  Write therefore the things that you have seen, those that are and those that are to take place after this.

    Quote
    You're not helping your cause by ignoring Gene's outrageous idea that God is 8 in 1.

    This is your “outrageous” accusation regarding Gene.

    Will you continue to insist to make this subject comical?

    Blessings in your walk with the Lord,

    Seeking

    #125484
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi tt,
    It is no less amusing to suggest that God is 3 in 1.
    God and God's own Spirit and God's Son being one God could only come from the shallow minds of men.

    #125489
    KangarooJack
    Participant

    Seeking said:

    Quote
    Where does the scripture you posted mention banishing?
    Where does the scripture “expressly declare” he was banished for preachig?  Just continue to ignore the text and express your opinion as fact.

    It says that John was banished on account of the word of God and account of the testimony of Jesus.

    Seeking said:

    Quote
    Poor reading comprehension.

    You're starting to get a tad mean spirited.

    thinker said:

    Quote
    When you get to heaven try convincing those who were slain and had their heads cut off that they were considered “model prisoners” by the state

    Seeking replied:

    Quote
    We are speaking of John's current situation in the text.  It would be about as dumb for me to say, try convincing those who received their dead back by resurrection
    that they were suffering heavy persecution. (Heb.11)

    You said that “model prisoners” received preferential treatment taking one example from Paul. You inferred a general principle based on Paul's situation. But having your head cut off is not preferential treatment. Again, when you get to heaven look those martyrs in the face and say

    “According to my sources you should have had perferential treatment if you were model prisoners. Therefore, the reason your heads were cut off is because you misbehaved. You were initially imprisoned for Jesus. But your beheading was your own fault because you did not conduct yourselves as 'model prisoners.'  “

    Seeking said:

    Quote
    The angel testified to John, and the text  you cite proves nothing about distribution thus your statement, “John had nothing to do with the distribution of the Revelation. ” is totally unfounded.  It is ludicrous! He wrote the letter.  He wrote it at the command of Jesus – Rev 1:19  Write therefore the things that you have seen, those that are and those that are to take place after this.

    What!? Jesus said,  “I have sent my angel TO TESTIFY of these things in the churches.” And you say that nothing is said about distribution? Nothing was said of distribution when the angel commanded John to write. Yet you infer something about distribution. But the angel commanded John only to write.

    I am thinking now that the angel that commanded John to write was the same angel that was sent by Jesus to testify of those things in the churches. I am wondering if you deny that angels can have pyhsical contact with the world. An angel came into Peter's jail cell and “struck” him in his side, then loosed his chains and set him free.

    thinker

    #125490
    kerwin
    Participant

    The Thinker wrote:

    Quote

    The narrative clearly says that seven churches were addressed,

    I can see that since the whole book of Revelations is addressed to the seven churches that is in the province of Asia.  My question is why were just seven churches selected when more existed and why those seven particular churches.   Is Patmos located in what was the Roman province of Asia?

    The Thinker wrote:

    Quote

    It was ten virgins Kerwin.

    You are correct as my memory did not hold up.  Seven was used as the number of brothers a woman married and it was also the number of baskets of bread gathered after 7 loaves were shared among the four thousand.  There were also twelve baskets of pieces gathered after five loaves and two fishes were shared among the five thousand..

    The number 10 by the way symbolizes ultimate completion and twelve the union of the people with God which explains the 12 apostles.  

    Here is what Wikipedia states about Jewish numeric symbolism.

    The Thinker wrote:

    Quote

    How is your lack of information on the seven spirits an indication of anything?

    It tells me I could find nothing to back up the arguments about the seven spirits I was hearing.  That is why I asked and have not received any supporting evidence from whoever felt a need to back up the words they were writing.

    The Thinker wrote:

    Quote

    Besides, Jesus explicitly said that He had sent His own angel to see to it that the book was distributed

    I can see your argument but it is my impression Jesus is the speaking of the angel who brought the message to John trusting John to forward the message to those who needed to hear it.

    Revelations 1:1(NIV) reads

    Quote

    ,,,,He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John,

    #125502
    SEEKING
    Participant

    [quote=thethinker,Mar. 23 2009,00:41] [/quote]

    Quote
    It says that John was banished on account of the word of God and account of the testimony of Jesus.

    Negative!  You have refused to acknowledge what the word says regarding Paul's treatment as a “Roman Citizen”, his own appeal for fair treatment.  It says he was on Patamos.  Nothing about banisment whatsoever.  

    You are not making banishment statements and statements regarding his freedom as a  Roman prisoner, “on account of the word of God.”  Here is the word of God, AGAIN.

    Act 28:16-17  And when we came to Rome, the centurion delivered up the prisoners to the captain of the barrack,  but Paul was suffered to remain by himself, with the soldier guarding him. And it came to pass after three days, Paul called together those who are the principal men of the Jews, and they having come together, he said unto them: `Men, brethren, I–having done nothing contrary to the people, or to the customs of the fathers–a prisoner from Jerusalem, was delivered up to the hands of the Romans;

    Quote
    Seeking said:Poor reading comprehension.

    You're starting to get a tad mean spirited.

    Negative! A statement of reality that  is continuuing. Either that or you deliberately refuse to honor the text.

    Quote
    You said that “model prisoners” received preferential treatment taking one example from Paul. You inferred a general principle based on Paul's situation.

    Here are the two examples I cited AGAIN:

    Act 28:16-17  And when we came to Rome, the centurion delivered up the prisoners to the captain of the barrack,  but Paul was suffered to remain by himself, with the soldier guarding him. And it came to pass after three days, Paul called together those who are the principal men of the Jews, and they having come together, he said unto them: `Men, brethren, I–having done nothing contrary to the people, or to the customs of the fathers–a prisoner from Jerusalem, was delivered up to the hands of the Romans;

    Act 22:25  But when they had stretched him out for the whips, Paul said to the centurion who was standing by, “Is it lawful for you to flog a man who is a Roman citizen and uncondemned?”   When the centurion heard this, he went to the tribune and said to him, “What are you about to do? For this man is a Roman citizen.”   So the tribune came and said to him, “Tell me, are you a Roman citizen?” And he said, “Yes.”   The tribune answered, “I bought this citizenship for a large sum.” Paul said, “But I am a citizen by birth.”  
    So those who were about to examine him withdrew from him immediately, and the tribune also was afraid, for he realized that Paul was a Roman citizen and that he had bound him.

    Do we not infer principal based on observable and recorded fact!  I am basing my conclusions based of observable, Biblical, recorded fact and not on mere conjecture.

    Quote
    What!? Jesus said,  “I have sent my angel TO TESTIFY of these things in the churches.” And you say that nothing is said about distribution?

    Correct!  Dictation and distribution are two different things.
    That dictated may not be distributed.

    This command of Jesus strongly infers John is to write and distribute (Funny you  jumped over this verse to go to v.19)

    Rev 1:11  saying, “Write what you see in a book and  send it to the seven churches, to Ephesus and to Smyrna and to Pergamum and to Thyatira and to Sardis and to Philadelphia and to Laodicea.”

    Quote
    Yet you infer something about distribution. But the angel commanded John only to write.

    Thinker,  here is proof, in black – white – red, that you ignore what the text says in favor of proving your point. PLEASE note the bold underlined words of Jesus.

    Quote
    But having your head cut off is not preferential treatment. Again, when you get to heaven look those martyrs in the face and say

    “According to my sources you should have had perferential treatment if you were model prisoners. Therefore, the reason your heads were cut off is because you misbehaved. You were initially imprisoned for Jesus. But your beheading was your own fault because you did not conduct yourselves as  'model prisoners.'  “

    We are speaking of John's current situation in the text.

    Blessings in your walk with the Lord,

    Seeking

    #125507
    KangarooJack
    Participant

    Thinker said:

    Quote
    Besides, Jesus explicitly said that He had sent His own angel to see to it that the book was distributed

    Kerwin replied:

    Quote
    I can see your argument but it is my impression Jesus is the speaking of the angel who brought the message to John trusting John to forward the message to those who needed to hear it.

    Kerwin,
    I have thought about it and I concede to you that the angel that “testified” in Rev. 22 was NOT entrusted with the distribution of the book. But it may also be pointed out that the distribution of the book was NOT entrusted to John either. The historical facts cannot be ignored. John was banished to the isle of Patmos for preaching the word. Contemporaneously with this God's righteous saints were being beheaded for preaching the word. The sole purpose for the banishment of John and the murdering of the saints was to shut them up. Their persecutors wanted to silence them. But some here are denying common sense. For example, one person is suggesting that if John was a “model prisoner” he would be allowed to speak (though he was banished for preaching).

    John was more than a mere prisoner in a jail cell. John was a more serious threat! He was taken away from the mainland and confined to an island. Yet if he behaves as a “model prisoner” he will be allowed to speak by letter though mailmen? Nonsense!

    Therefore, help from heaven was needed so that the book could be distributed. This help came from angels. Angels  usually took human form when they were sent to the earth. The seven spirits from God were those angelic agents. It says that they were “sent into all the land” (Asia). I want to suggest that my view is being resisted primarily because men are accustomed to the capital “S” in reference to these spirits. This goes to show the  confusion that translator bias can cause.

    Because of the “S” being erroneously capitalized we have Gene saying that the seven “Spirits” are “elohim” (powers). This has resulted in his presenting to us a bizarre view of God (God is 8 in 1). And tradition has said that the number seven in reference to the spirits is “symbolic” for the Holy Spirit. Yet the number seven is literal in reference to the churches and the angels to whom John was commanded to write.

    WHY WAS JOHN COMMANDED TO WRITE TO THE ANGELS of the seven churches? If John was entrusted with the distribution of the book as you say, then why was he commanded to address the angels specifically? The seven angels which were the original recipients of the book were the seven spirits that were sent out into Asia to distribute it.

    I will repeat that I concede to you that the angel of Rev. 22 was not entrusted with the distribution of the book

    thinker

    #125516
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Thinker………that was God talking about Jesus, Jesus is also considered as a messenger or angle of GOD. Jesus is GOD's Spokesman and delivers to us GOD WORDS, As GOD the FATHER revealed them to Jesus He also sent Jesus to Speak them to John, and John wrote it down and sent  the letter to the Leaders of the seven Churches.

    I know this can get a little confusing, but remember it say's this was the revelation that (GOD) Gave Jesus, to show unto his servants, the things that must shortly come to pass; and He (GOD) sent  and symbolized it , by his Angle or messenger (Jesus) unto John. It is evident that it was Jesus himself, Rev 1:8 ..> i am he that liveth, and was dead; and behold, I am alive forevermore.  Jesus Himself delievered the message from the Father to John.  IMO

    love and peace to you and yours……………………….gene

    #125520
    NickHassan
    Participant

    g,
    Jesus is an angel?
    Is it written?

    #125521
    NickHassan
    Participant

    G,
    Jesus is once called a messenger.
    Angel can mean messenger but were all these ANGELS?

    Numbers 21:21
    And Israel sent messengers unto Sihon king of the Amorites, saying,

    Numbers 22:5
    He sent messengers therefore unto Balaam the son of Beor to Pethor, which is by the river of the land of the children of his people, to call him, saying, Behold, there is a people come out from Egypt: behold, they cover the face of the earth, and they abide over against me:

    Numbers 24:12
    And Balaam said unto Balak, Spake I not also to thy messengers which thou sentest unto me, saying,

    Deuteronomy 2:26
    And I sent messengers out of the wilderness of Kedemoth unto Sihon king of Heshbon with words of peace, saying,

    Joshua 6:17
    And the city shall be accursed, even it, and all that are therein, to the LORD: only Rahab the harlot shall live, she and all that are with her in the house, because she hid the messengers that we sent.

    Joshua 6:25
    And Joshua saved Rahab the harlot alive, and her father's household, and all that she had; and she dwelleth in Israel even unto this day; because she hid the messengers, which Joshua sent to spy out Jericho.

    Joshua 7:22
    So Joshua sent messengers, and they ran unto the tent; and, behold, it was hid in his tent, and the silver under it.

    Judges 6:35
    And he sent messengers throughout all Manasseh; who also was gathered after him: and he sent messengers unto Asher, and unto Zebulun, and unto Naphtali; and they came up to meet them.

    #125523
    kerwin
    Participant

    The Thinker wrote:

    Quote

    I have thought about it and I concede to you that the angel that “testified” in Rev. 22 was NOT entrusted with the distribution of the book

    That shows a willingness to adapt your beliefs to what the evidence shows and that is a characteristic, guided by God, we should all strive to nurture.

    The Thinker wrote:

    Quote

    But it may also be pointed out that the distribution of the book was NOT entrusted to John either

    I am not sure why it cannot be ignored since I do not see how it is relevant to the gospel of Jesus our Lord and in fact it is merely a point of history for the Christian Church; much of what is either unknown or hearsay.  In this case scripture does not tell us how John's letter of prophesy was sent to those outside of Patmos and from what I observe we are speculating based on little evidence, which I am not even sure is reliable.

    The Thinker wrote:

    Quote

    The seven spirits from God were those angelic agents.

    I certainly see that as a possibility though the seven spirits may also be the:

    The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition copyright ©2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Updated in 2003. Reads

    Quote

    The actual though unstated sense or significance of something:

    Though I have my doubts about the later.  But doubts aside I have not looked into the matter which was suggested to me by Gene, though I may not have understood him correctly.

    The Thinker wrote:

    Quote

    Because of the “S” being erroneously capitalized we have Gene saying that the seven “Spirits” are “elohim” (powers).

    Angels are both elohim and powers as they are members of God’s family but that is not what Gene seems to be speaking of.

    The Thinker wrote:

    Quote

    And tradition has said that the number seven in reference to the spirits is “symbolic” for the Holy Spirit.

    That causes a flaw in his argument that Elohim is referring to the seven spirits since it would then only be one Spirit.  The Spirit would have to be literally seven spirits for his argument to hold up and that does sound like a seven but one argument unless you say the seven spirits are not actual spirits but are instead aspects of the one Spirit. Still that solution also causes a flaw in his argument.  I guess I will have to go to him to understand how he reasons it out in his own mind.

    The Thinker wrote:

    Quote

    Yet the number seven is literal in reference to the churches and the angels to whom John was commanded to write.

    I agree it could well be speaking of the seven angels though I am not sure we should take the number seven as literal just like I am not sure we should take the number 144,000 as literal.

    The Thinker wrote:

    Quote

    WHY WAS JOHN COMMANDED TO WRITE TO THE ANGELS of the seven churches?

    He was not commanded to write to the angels of the seven churches but instead was instructed to:

    Revelations 1:11(NIV) reads

    Quote

    …: “Write on a scroll what you see and send it to the seven churches: to Ephesus, Smyrna, Pergamum, Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia and Laodicea.”

    And

    Revelations 1:19(NIV) reads

    Quote

    “Write, therefore, what you have seen, what is now and what will take place later.

    That is why I have concluded that the letters are part of what he saw.  I want to point out that “angel” if replaced by “spirit” could also be speaking about the “sense or significance of” the church in question which would go better with the context of the letters than if “angel” meant one of the Elohim or even a human messenger.  Still the Greek word does means “envoy” and that word use seems to be consistent so it seems those letters are addressed to the angels themselves and not to the church or it would have said to the church.  It is also possible that they are addressed to a human messenger and are informing them how Jesus views the church under their jurisdiction though the way of speaking in the letters is not one I would use in that situation.

    #125526
    SEEKING
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 23 2009,15:11)


    Quote
    I am not sure why it cannot be ignored since I do not see how it is relevant to the gospel of Jesus our Lord and in fact it is merely a point of history for the Christian Church; much of what is either unknown or hearsay. In this case scripture does not tell us how John's letter of prophesy was sent to those outside of Patmos and from what I observe we are speculating based on little evidence, which I am not even sure is reliable.

    Excellent point Kerwin.

    Quote

    The Thinker wrote:

    WHY WAS JOHN COMMANDED TO WRITE TO THE ANGELS of the seven churches?

    He was not commanded to write to the angels of the seven churches but instead was instructed to:

    Revelations 1:11(NIV) reads[quote]

    …: “Write on a scroll what you see and send it to the seven churches: to Ephesus, Smyrna, Pergamum, Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia and Laodicea.”

    Kerwin, this point has been made to Thinker several times as you can see in past posts. I would like to see him as honest with the text as he was to admit his error to you.

    Blessings in your walk with the Lord,

    Seeking

    #125529
    KangarooJack
    Participant

    Thinker said:

    Quote
    But it may also be pointed out that the distribution of the book was NOT entrusted to John either

    Kerwin replied:[quote]…In this case scripture does not tell us how John's letter of prophesy was sent to those outside of Patmos and from what I observe we are speculating based on little evidence, which I am not even sure is reliable.

    I differ with you on this one Kerwin. John was not commanded to write to the churches directly. He was commanded to write to the angels over those churches. If these were angels from heaven then this explains how the book was distributed. They probably assumed human form as angels usually did went sent on a mission to earth. John was banished to Patmos on account of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus. He was banished because his persecutors wanted to silence him. So it goes against common sense that his persecutors would cooperate with him in distributing the book.

    People here forget that the sole purpose of persecution, imprisonment, beatings and death was to silence the apostles or anyone who preached Jesus. We are told in Acts that the Jews plotted to kill the apostles for preaching Jesus but Gamaliel talked them out of it. So they went with Gamaliel's advice and let the apostles go. But the Jews first beat the apostles and commanded them not to preach Jesus

    Quote
    And they agreed with him [Gamaliel], and when they had called for the apostles and beaten them, they commanded that they should not speak in the name of Jesus, and let them go (Acts 5:40)

    The purpose of all persecution was to shut the mouths of Christians. Yet there is one here that says if a Christian was a “model prisoner” he would be allowed to speak. Nonsense! A model prisoner may have enjoyed some perks by their persecutors but the right to speak in the name of Jesus wasn't one of them. He assumes that because Paul was able to distribute his letters then John was also able. But Paul was only under house arrest (Acts 28:30). John was altogether banished and sent away to Patmos which was used for the purpose of punishing criminals and for silencing someone they did not want to necessarily kill. It was much more difficult for John to distribute the Revelation by human agency then it was for Paul his epistles.

    Kerwin wrote:

    Quote
    Angels are both elohim and powers as they are members of God’s family but that is not what Gene seems to be speaking of.

    Follow Gene's posts. He believes that the seven spirits are the “elohim” who created man.

    thinker said:

    Quote
    And tradition has said that the number seven in reference to the spirits is “symbolic” for the Holy Spirit.

    Kerwin replied:

    Quote
    That causes a flaw in his argument that Elohim is referring to the seven spirits since it would then only be one Spirit.  The Spirit would have to be literally seven spirits for his argument to hold up and that does sound like a seven but one argument unless you say the seven spirits are not actual spirits but are instead aspects of the one Spirit. Still that solution also causes a flaw in his argument.  I guess I will have to go to him to understand how he reasons it out in his own mind.

    Again, follow his posts. He certainly appears to be saying that the seven spirits are a literal seven. (and I agree). And when I showed him this made God 8 in 1 he did not deny it. He can clarify himself publically.

    Kerwin wrote:

    Quote
    He was not commanded to write to the angels of the seven churches….

    John was commanded to write to the angels of the seven churches Kerwin,

    1.To the angel of the church of Ephesus write….
    2.To the angel of the church of Smyrna write….
    3.To the angel of the church of Pergamos write….
    4.To the angel of the church of Thyatira write….
    5.To the angel of the church of Sardis write….
    6.To the angel of the church of Philadelphia write….
    7.To the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write….

    Kerwin said:

    Quote
    Revelations 1:11(NIV) reads…: “Write on a scroll what you see and send it to the seven churches: to Ephesus, Smyrna, Pergamum, Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia and Laodicea.”

    The word “send” simply means to “dispatch” whether by human or angelic agency. John was not in the position to employ human agency. John was commanded to write to the “messengers” of the churches. I believe the seven spirits were those messengers. It says that they were sent out into Asia (5:6).

    Kerwin said:

    Quote
    I do not see how it is relevant to the gospel of Jesus our Lord and in fact it is merely a point of history for the Christian Church

    I agree. At the beginning I was replying only to Gene's “elohim” theory of the seven spirits. But another here distracted me by making a federal case of what I was saying. I reminded this person why I was making my points and asked him to concentrate on Gene's erroneous ideas. But he wanted a piece of me for some reason.

    thinker

    #125534
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Nick………the word Angle can be interpreted as Messenger also. A Messenger can be anyone delivering a message. The message is the Spirit He delivers , Jesus said the (WORDS) he delivered were Spirit, not angles or messengers. Jesus himself was the messenger. IMO

    love and peace to you and yours……………………………………………gene

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